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Wanted: A PM who DID NOT go to Oxford – politicalbetting.com

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  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,100
    Tories at a crossroads. Do they want to follow the path trod by the Trump GOP or do they want to be conservatives. It’s as simple as that.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,241
    Well well. Just reading a Wikipedia article, following up an interesting lead on Hacker News, and @rcs1000 is mentioned in the article. Small world and all that.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 33,910
    edited February 2022
    The Times is now reporting this, not just the Daily Mail.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-jab-smears-probably-killed-hundreds-of-thousands-says-scientist-rbflxfkzx

    "Oxford jab smears probably killed hundreds of thousands, says scientist

    An Oxford scientist who worked on the AstraZeneca vaccine has said that critics of the jab “probably killed hundreds of thousands of people” by damaging its reputation. Speaking to the BBC, Professor Sir John Bell said: “They have damaged the reputation of the vaccine in a way that echoes around the rest of the world. I think bad behaviour from scientists and from politicians has probably killed hundreds of thousands of people — and that they cannot be proud of.”"
  • TazTaz Posts: 16,911
    Scott_xP said:

    It has been 0 days since BoZo featured in the evening news headlines.

    And not in a good way...

    When he’s gone, as he surely will in the next few months, who or what are you going to obsess over then ? What will fill that gap in your life he seems to fill ?
  • The country deserves better

    Are you listening conservative mps and @HYUFD

    You can end this now

    Do the right thing and remove Boris
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    Lot of people pointing a lot of fingers in a lot of directions tonight. Last week we were being told, "Boris promised to take control of No.10. And that's what he's done". Fine. So how's that working out.
    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1490785862308839426
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,099
    edited February 2022

    Guto Harri is, of course, right that Johnson is not a complete clown. I’d put it at about 60% clown and 40% psychopath.

    I see you corrected the autocorrect typo with gusto - well done that man!
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    No surprise the conspiracy theorist thugs who harassed @Keir_Starmer & I repeated slurs we heard from @BorisJohnson last week at the despatch box.

    Intimidation, harassment and lies have no place in our democracy. And they won’t ever stop me doing my job.
    https://twitter.com/DavidLammy/status/1490761739759194117
    https://twitter.com/marclister3k/status/1490744573928382466/video/1
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    Jonathan said:

    Tories at a crossroads. Do they want to follow the path trod by the Trump GOP or do they want to be conservatives. It’s as simple as that.

    The Canadian Conservatives are also going down the Trumpite route removing their more moderate leader and replacing him with a harder right figure backing the anti vaccination mandate and anti restriction truckers attacking Trudeau's government.

    In Italy Salvini stands on a similar platform, as do Zemmour and Le Pen on a populist Nationalist ticket anti restrictions and vaccine mandates.

    Indeed Boris is somewhat more moderate than them, he introduced Plan B when almost a third of his MPs voted against it and he pushed the vaccine. Indeed even Trump is moderate compared to the anti vaxxers, given he too backs the vaccine
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    PM - Apologise please.

    We claim to be the Mother of all Parliaments.

    Let’s stop this drift towards a Trumpian style of politics from becoming the norm.

    We are better than this.

    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1490785849461460992
    https://twitter.com/juliansmithuk/status/1490754037708435460
  • Scott_xP said:

    PM - Apologise please.

    We claim to be the Mother of all Parliaments.

    Let’s stop this drift towards a Trumpian style of politics from becoming the norm.

    We are better than this.

    https://twitter.com/Tobias_Ellwood/status/1490785849461460992
    https://twitter.com/juliansmithuk/status/1490754037708435460

    Send in your letters is the only response
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    edited February 2022
    ping said:

    Playing polite on Saville won’t work.

    Labour need to to fight dirty. Go on go for the fucking jugular. It’s the Conservative party who will come out worse.

    Let's say Labour did this.

    The problem with the approach is that Johnson's comment is a classic case of the best lies contain a grain of truth.

    Starmer wasn't responsible for the decision. But he was DPP when the decision was made. And while there is absolutely no evidence to back Johnson's claim, there will be a body of people who say "well, he was DPP, are you telling me a high profile case such as Savile would not have been passed upwards?". The fact that the papers relating to the case have also apparently been destroyed also doesn't help Starmer's case because it can't be proved one way or other what was exactly said or done.

    Labour would be better keeping quiet and letting the Conservative MPs attack Johnson
  • ping said:

    Playing polite on Saville won’t work.

    Labour need to to fight dirty. Go on go for the fucking jugular. It’s the Conservative party who will come out worse.

    Agreed.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,099
    Harrz said:

    Is it certain the Jimmy Savile case actually was raised by the protestors who harassed Keir Starmer today? I didn't hear Savile's name mentioned, let alone chanted, in the clip shown at the Independent's website. The word "freemason" comes across, and the man who is doing most of the shouting also mentions Julian Assange.

    What is the flag that looks like a St George's cross but has some blue writing on it (possibly "England" or "English") together with a small blue symbol?

    Watch this:

    https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1490754883724713987?s=20&t=aQHVBwvw4zbTn115KY6G8w
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    How is Guto's first day going?

    Tory MPs blame Boris Johnson for fuelling mob ambush of Keir Starmer outside parliament – but PM fails to apologise for Jimmy Savile slur. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-mobbed-anti-vaccine-protestors_uk_62015b95e4b050042430d2c7
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 19,118
    HYUFD said:

    The vast majority of black British of all ages in the UK are religious, including evangelical Christians, as are the vast majority of British Asians whether Hindu, Muslim or Sikh, as are the majority of Orthodox Jews.

    Even evangelical and young Roman Catholic white Christians have more children on average than atheist white Britons.

    As for Starmer and the culture wars, most of the MPs voting against Plan B restrictions were Conservatives and LDs very few were Labour. The protestors are not happy with Boris but they are even less happy with Starmer Labour. Not that I condone their actions of course
    The strength of my Grandfather's religious convictions were such that he was a conscientious objector during WWII, and joined the Friends Ambulance Unit. He is survived by six grandchildren. Not one of us is religious.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    Scott_xP said:

    How is Guto's first day going?

    Tory MPs blame Boris Johnson for fuelling mob ambush of Keir Starmer outside parliament – but PM fails to apologise for Jimmy Savile slur. https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/keir-starmer-mobbed-anti-vaccine-protestors_uk_62015b95e4b050042430d2c7

    Just do a non-apology even for heaven's sake - sorry if he felt insulted or some such - that's better than the story going on because will only 'clarify' remarks. The longer it goes on the fewer know what even know what he said and the more will only remember him attempting to associated Saville with Starmer.
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173

    Guto Harri is, of course, right that Johnson is not a complete clown. I’d put it at about 60% clown and 40% psychopath.

    Boris the Dancing Clown?
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,892
    edited February 2022
    MrEd said:

    Let's say Labour did this.

    The problem with the approach is that Johnson's comment is a classic case of the best lies contain a grain of truth.

    Starmer wasn't responsible for the decision. But he was DPP when the decision was made. And while there is absolutely no evidence to back Johnson's claim, there will be a body of people who say "well, he was DPP, are you telling me a high profile case such as Savile would not have been passed upwards?". The fact that the papers relating to the case have also apparently been destroyed also doesn't help Starmer's case because it can't be proved one way or other what was exactly said or done.

    Labour would be better keeping quiet and letting the Conservative MPs attack Johnson
    The far-right trope online link with the mob in real life do Labour's work for them in taking priority over the more abstracted points you're describing in this case, I would say.

    I agree with Ping that Labour should go hard on the Trumpite politics angle of this, because in fact it can help illuminate the workings, and undermine a large part of entire modus operandi of, the Johnson administration, from the beginning till now.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    If you don't ride out into the field and battle this Trumpesque crap you'll soon realise, just like moderate Republicans did, that your party doesn't exist anymore. Sure it might have the same name. But it's gone. That's what's facing the UK Tories right now.
    https://twitter.com/LJ_Skipper/status/1490789465467637772
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,839

    The country deserves better

    Are you listening conservative mps and @HYUFD

    You can end this now

    Do the right thing and remove Boris

    In fairness, Big G, I don't think Hyufd has the power to remove Boris.

    Maybe he could recall his tanks from Scotland or wherever they are this week and send them against Downing Street, but otherwise - nah.

    The only Tory MP we definitely know listens to us has already sent in his letter anyway.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    At least six Tories now publicly expressing horror at the abuse of Starmer using the Savile line from the PM. Julian Smith, Roger Gale, Tobias Ellwood, Stephen Hammond, Anthony Mangnall, Aaron Bell and Rob Largan.
    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1490789620258422787
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    Scott_xP said:

    At least six Tories now publicly expressing horror at the abuse of Starmer using the Savile line from the PM. Julian Smith, Roger Gale, Tobias Ellwood, Stephen Hammond, Anthony Mangnall, Aaron Bell and Rob Largan.
    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1490789620258422787

    I'd headline that 'A mere six' rather than 'at least six'.
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    kle4 said:

    I'd headline that 'A mere six' rather than 'at least six'.
    Also, seems to have a problem with counting?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    kle4 said:

    I'd headline that 'A mere six' rather than 'at least six'.
    1.7% of Conservative MPs critique Britain Trump - not exactly a counter-revolution, is it?
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,331
    ydoethur said:

    In fairness, Big G, I don't think Hyufd has the power to remove Boris.

    Maybe he could recall his tanks from Scotland or wherever they are this week and send them against Downing Street, but otherwise - nah.

    The only Tory MP we definitely know listens to us has already sent in his letter anyway.
    Not sure. When it comes to the point that he loses Epping, he’ll surely realise the game’s up.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,455

    I'm not keeping up with the mad conspiracy, alt-right, anti-vax, QAnon view of the world so I don't understand why Julian Assange has got anything to do with it all?

    Horseshoe innit.

    This is why right and left are inadequate terms. There’s a belief system out there that believes the deep state / forces of globalism are in a grand conspiracy to control the world through nefarious means. Some of them are on the far left. Others on the far right. All seem to have a soft spot for the likes of Putin, Assad, and characters like Assange, Piers Corbyn, Galloway, Bannon.

    As pointed out above the trouble is often these conspiracy theories are founded on a grain of truth. That’s what makes them all the more dangerous.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,099
    kle4 said:

    Just do a non-apology even for heaven's sake - sorry if he felt insulted or some such - that's better than the story going on because will only 'clarify' remarks. The longer it goes on the fewer know what even know what he said and the more will only remember him attempting to associated Saville with Starmer.
    No, a non-apology will not do.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,839

    Not sure. When it comes to the point that he loses Epping, he’ll surely realise the game’s up.
    In 2009 I flippantly suggested to an annoying Guardian poster that we would know the Tories had a problem in London when they lost Kensington.

    And they did.

    I wonder if your prediction will go the same way...
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,314
    edited February 2022
    I'm glad I was out doing something useful while the God argument was on. Well done @rcs1000 for holding the fort for those of us lucky enough not to get sucked in (which I would have been).

    I have seen some pretty good argument for the existence of God, but not today. We seem to have:

    @MrEd - 'The Atheist argument seems to rest on the view that atheist believe "God cannot exist, therefore there has to be some other reason why the Universe came into existence'. What? We don't start from God can not exist at all. More than happy to be proved wrong and find my end is not being eaten by worms. At no point do I start from that assumption.

    @Leon - On a brand new (2 hydrogen atom) start to the Universe and an application of the classical physics conservation of matter where none of that applies.

    @hyufd - Arguing for religion on the basis that it is needed to hold the West together. Ignoring whether that is true or not, how about whether God exists rather than it is better if he does. The belief in a God to hold a society together is as old as the hills and usually turns out badly.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081

    No, a non-apology will not do.

    It will stop any more letters, although it doesn't look like it is even necessary
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 35,099

    Also, seems to have a problem with counting?
    At least 'at least six' includes seven ;-)
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 58,836

    Well well. Just reading a Wikipedia article, following up an interesting lead on Hacker News, and @rcs1000 is mentioned in the article. Small world and all that.

    Really?

    Source?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    Scott_xP said:

    At least six Tories now publicly expressing horror at the abuse of Starmer using the Savile line from the PM. Julian Smith, Roger Gale, Tobias Ellwood, Stephen Hammond, Anthony Mangnall, Aaron Bell and Rob Largan.
    https://twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/1490789620258422787

    Interesting mix though - oldies in safe seats, newbies in safe seats, a Red Waller and some in between.

    Smith - MP since 2010, 50 years old, Northern very safe seat, 23k majority
    Gale - MP since 1983, 78 years old, South East very safe seat, 17k majority
    Ellwood - MP since 2005, 55 years old, Southern moderately safe seat 8k majority
    Hammond - MP since 2005, 60 years old, currently marginal southern seat, 600 majority
    Mangnall, MP since 2019, 32 years old, very safe South West Tory seat, 12k majority
    Bell - MP since 2019, 41 years old, Red Wall seat so safety uncertain, 7k majority
    Largan - MP since 2019, 34 years old, bellweather seat in north, 500 majority

    Mangnall is interesting as he is young, new to parliament, so no historic axe to grind with Boris, but given the seat may not feel much personal loyality to him for the win either.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,432
    Andy_JS said:

    The Times is now reporting this, not just the Daily Mail.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/oxford-jab-smears-probably-killed-hundreds-of-thousands-says-scientist-rbflxfkzx

    "Oxford jab smears probably killed hundreds of thousands, says scientist

    An Oxford scientist who worked on the AstraZeneca vaccine has said that critics of the jab “probably killed hundreds of thousands of people” by damaging its reputation. Speaking to the BBC, Professor Sir John Bell said: “They have damaged the reputation of the vaccine in a way that echoes around the rest of the world. I think bad behaviour from scientists and from politicians has probably killed hundreds of thousands of people — and that they cannot be proud of.”"

    I note that it is no longer being used in the UK.

    Perhaps that Oxford Scientist ought to have a chat with the vaccines minister before going ant further.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    edited February 2022

    No, a non-apology will not do.
    I don't say it would do for me, but it would typically be enough for most within a party. They are used to justifying believing a non-apology is a real apology, they can claim when people moan to them 'Look, he apologised', even if they know the apology was weak. Having to ignore it altogether is more challenging an ask.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    kjh said:

    I'm glad I was out doing something useful while the God argument was on. Well done @rcs1000 for holding the fort for those of us lucky enough not to get sucked in (which I would have been).

    I have seen some pretty good argument for the existence of God, but not today. We seem to have:

    @MrEd - 'The Atheist argument seems to rest on the view that atheist believe "God cannot exist, therefore there has to be some other reason why the Universe came into existence'. What? We don't start from God can not exist at all. More than happy to be proved wrong and find my end is not being eaten by worms. At no point do I start from that assumption.

    @Leon - On a brand new (2 hydrogen atom) start to the Universe and an application of the classical physics conservation of matter where none of that applies.

    @hyufd - Arguing for religion on the basis that it is needed to hold the West together. Ignoring whether that is true or not, how about whether God exists rather than it is better if he does. The belief in a God to hold a society together is as old as the hills and usually turns out badly.

    I have faith God exists, I don't need proof he does
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    ydoethur said:

    In 2009 I flippantly suggested to an annoying Guardian poster that we would know the Tories had a problem in London when they lost Kensington.

    And they did.

    I wonder if your prediction will go the same way...
    Kensington is now a marginal, Labour could win it as they did in 2017 and still not have enough seats to form a government
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053

    At least 'at least six' includes seven ;-)
    Probably wrote the headline when another one broke - why when writing reports I advise people to mention a changable stat as little as possible, as when revising the draft you will miss one for sure.
  • El_CapitanoEl_Capitano Posts: 4,241
    rcs1000 said:

    Really?

    Source?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lernout_&_Hauspie. L&H were referred to in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30248282. (Unless I've got the wrong Robert Smithson, which is always possible...)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278

    Not sure. When it comes to the point that he loses Epping, he’ll surely realise the game’s up.
    The Tories did not even lose Epping in 1997 and the polls now are still better for the than they were before 1997 and the Tories got over 60% of the vote here in 2019
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,381

    That's sounds like a really good description of my views. Even though I have never thought of it in those terms before.

    Thankyou. Once again you have given me a new perspective. .
    There exist statements in arithemetic which are true, but which it is impossible to prove are true.

    More astonishingly, in any possible system of thought or notation you could ever invent, if it is as expressive, or more expressive, than arithmetic, there exist in that system statements which are true but which it is impossible to prove are true.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_incompleteness_theorems

    (Not necessarily a slam-dunk pro-God argument, but I thought some of you might find it eye-opening in relation to the last couple of comments here)
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    Farooq said:

    Bellwether!
    Sorry, pet peeve.
    I did spot it after I hit post, but I felt I had to leave it up to face appropriate ridicule, else I could never critique peoples' use of 'reign/rein' or 'John Hopkins' ever again.
  • kle4 said:

    Interesting mix though - oldies in safe seats, newbies in safe seats, a Red Waller and some in between.

    Smith - MP since 2010, 50 years old, Northern very safe seat, 23k majority
    Gale - MP since 1983, 78 years old, South East very safe seat, 17k majority
    Ellwood - MP since 2005, 55 years old, Southern moderately safe seat 8k majority
    Hammond - MP since 2005, 60 years old, currently marginal southern seat, 600 majority
    Mangnall, MP since 2019, 32 years old, very safe South West Tory seat, 12k majority
    Bell - MP since 2019, 41 years old, Red Wall seat so safety uncertain, 7k majority
    Largan - MP since 2019, 34 years old, bellweather seat in north, 500 majority

    Mangnall is interesting as he is young, new to parliament, so no historic axe to grind with Boris, but given the seat may not feel much personal loyality to him for the win either.
    Not really a surprising list. Largan and Hammond are both virtually certain to lose at the next election even if the Tories salvage a majority. Ellwood's seat is also an outside Labour chance like Bell's.
  • rcs1000 said:

    It was then that Marvin got religion. Not the quiet, personal kind, that involves doing good deeds and living a better life; not even the kind that involves putting on a suit and ringing people's doorbells; but the kind that involves having your own TV network and getting people to send you money.

    Douglas.

    A proper Englishman.
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,314
    edited February 2022
    HYUFD said:

    I have faith God exists, I don't need proof he does
    Yes and that is a much better argument than any of the ones I quoted in my post from others earlier. You have a distinct advantage over me in that respect because I believe he doesn't exist, but I don't know that, but you actually know he exits and I can't argue with that. I believe you are mistaken, but I have no conclusive argument against that point you make.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,381
    carnforth said:

    There exist statements in arithemetic which are true, but which it is impossible to prove are true.

    More astonishingly, in any possible system of thought or notation you could ever invent, if it is as expressive, or more expressive, than arithmetic, there exist in that system statements which are true but which it is impossible to prove are true.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gödel's_incompleteness_theorems

    (Not necessarily a slam-dunk pro-God argument, but I thought some of you might find it eye-opening in relation to the last couple of comments here)
    The book, which only requires patience and school maths to understand:

    https://www.amazon.co.uk/Godels-Proof-Routledge-Classics-Ernest/dp/0415355281
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 126,278
    edited February 2022

    The strength of my Grandfather's religious convictions were such that he was a conscientious objector during WWII, and joined the Friends Ambulance Unit. He is survived by six grandchildren. Not one of us is religious.
    A US study found atheists have an average birthrate of just 1.6 and agnostics a birthrate of only 1.3.

    That compared to 1.9 for mainline Protestants, 2.0 for Jews, 2.3 for white evangelical Protestants and Roman Catholics, 2.5 for black Protestants and 3.4 for Mormons

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/12/charted-the-religions-that-make-the-most-babies/
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,110
    Scott_xP said:

    If you don't ride out into the field and battle this Trumpesque crap you'll soon realise, just like moderate Republicans did, that your party doesn't exist anymore. Sure it might have the same name. But it's gone. That's what's facing the UK Tories right now.
    https://twitter.com/LJ_Skipper/status/1490789465467637772

    Is there a list of those senior ministers who have essentially continued to propagate the Savile smear?

    From memory-

    Doubled-down:
    Kwarteng
    Raab
    Javid
    Dorries (obvs)

    Failed to back:
    Rishi
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792
    Ye gods.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,455
    If Starmer comes out in a show of grown up magnanimity, reassures everyone he and Lammy are fine, thanks everyone including the many Tory MPs for expressing their support, and makes no mention of Boris or the slur in the commons, I could imagine that spurring on the requisite letters and confidence votes to put this premiership to rest. PMQs on Wed can then be about the economy and cost of living.

  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081

    Is there a list of those senior ministers who have essentially continued to propagate the Savile smear?

    From memory-

    Doubled-down:
    Kwarteng
    Raab
    Javid
    Dorries (obvs)

    Failed to back:
    Rishi

    Much of the cabinet have parroted BoZo's weasel words tonight
  • moonshinemoonshine Posts: 5,814
    Farooq said:

    They really should be walking. It's clear that the Conservative party has been too well purged of the sensible element and that they are now in a minority.

    Personally I'm past the point of thinking I can forgive the Conservative party for these last few weeks. Anyone who hasn't had their letter in for months owns this. And while I can't know exactly who, I know just on sheer weight of numbers that the vast majority of Tory MPs are rotten for letting this happen. Seriously, if I were one of those MPs I'd cut and run. To hell with even the idea of doing it to save your own skin, this is dangerously close to not getting blood on your hands.
    Agreed, they need to lose.
  • TimSTimS Posts: 14,455
    kle4 said:

    I did spot it after I hit post, but I felt I had to leave it up to face appropriate ridicule, else I could never critique peoples' use of 'reign/rein' or 'John Hopkins' ever again.
    I think you’re due some rest-bite now.

    My favourite is that intriguing dental implement the fine toothcomb.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,381
    Farooq said:

    It's not even slightly suggestive of God's existence.
    An oft-used argument for the existence of god, the teleological argument, relies on the sense of the universe being so ordered, balanced, and rational that it can ONLY be as a result of intelligent design. The Incompleteness Theorem seems to undermine that argument.
    Not that the teleological argument needs Gödel for it to be sunk, but it's an extra hole in the hull.
    It goes against the argument “If God exists, why can’t you prove it?”.

    Intelligent design always seemed bunk to me. Who is to say what is “ordered”?
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 22,110
    I would encourage Aaron Bell *not* to walk, why should he surrender the Conservative party to the smearers, liars and nutters?
  • pigeonpigeon Posts: 5,173
    Scott_xP said:

    If you don't ride out into the field and battle this Trumpesque crap you'll soon realise, just like moderate Republicans did, that your party doesn't exist anymore. Sure it might have the same name. But it's gone. That's what's facing the UK Tories right now.
    https://twitter.com/LJ_Skipper/status/1490789465467637772

    It's probably too late already.
  • HYUFD said:

    The Tories did not even lose Epping in 1997 and the polls now are still better for the than they were before 1997 and the Tories got over 60% of the vote here in 2019
    Labour is probably unlikely to gain any seats in Essex unless they get a small overall majority and even then they'd probably only gain three: Thurrock, Colchester and Rochford and Southend E.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081

    I would encourage Aaron Bell *not* to walk, why should he surrender the Conservative party to the smearers, liars and nutters?

    That happened when Churchill's grandson was expelled by the chief liar
  • kjhkjh Posts: 12,314
    edited February 2022
    HYUFD said:

    A US study found atheists have an average birthrate of just 1.6 and agnostics a birthrate of only 1.3.

    That compared to 1.9 for mainline Protestants, 2.0 for Jews, 2.3 for evangelical Protestants and Roman Catholics and 3.4 for Mormons

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/12/charted-the-religions-that-make-the-most-babies/
    I think that misses the point that @LostPassword makes. If all/most/some of those religious offspring generated are atheist the higher birth rate of religious people will in fact generate some more atheist (as per Lostpassword's example). I know I am being silly now but in Lostpassword's case we don't have to rely on any atheist giving birth; we can rely on the religious to do our breeding for us.
  • carnforthcarnforth Posts: 5,381
    Scott_xP said:

    That happened when Churchill's grandson was expelled by the chief liar
    He should have been treated differently because of who his grandfather was?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    People rarely walk away from a party. The Brexit and Corbyn defections were remarkable (and even then not all that many), and without those you get a bare handful. People may fight, they may give up and retire or move on, but they rarely walk away. We've had one recently, I doubt we'll be lucky enough for more excitement.

    John Woodcock was the funniest of someone not walking away (at the time at any rate), in that he was honest enough to say he would not support Corbyn as PM whilst seeking election as a Labour MP.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    carnforth said:

    He should have been treated differently because of who his grandfather was?

    He was a Conservative.

    The clown that expelled him is not
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    Don't buy the 'oh I'm appalled' templated tweet from Tory MPs. If they're genuinely appalled, they will write to the 1922 Committee chairman. Tonight.
    https://twitter.com/JayMitchinson/status/1490790829375512583
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,839

    Douglas.

    A proper Englishman.
    Good Omens by Gaiman and Pratchett, surely? Not Douglas Adams?
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    This morning

    Sajid Javid has called for people to "draw a line under" Boris Johnson's use of a Jimmy Savile slur last week https://trib.al/Rks8Sqv

    This evening

    I’m disgusted by the threatening and abusive behaviour experienced by @Keir_Starmer and @DavidLammy this evening.

    There’s no place for intimidation or harassment in our democracy. I’m grateful to the police for their swift intervention.

    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1490795533862158348


    Weasel
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 72,839
    Farooq said:

    Boris sees himself as Churchill.
    And he cares as much for Churchill's descendants as he does for his own.
    That's not quite true. At least he has a fair idea of who Churchill's descendants are.
  • HYUFD said:

    A US study found atheists have an average birthrate of just 1.6 and agnostics a birthrate of only 1.3.

    That compared to 1.9 for mainline Protestants, 2.0 for Jews, 2.3 for white evangelical Protestants and Roman Catholics, 2.5 for black Protestants and 3.4 for Mormons

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/05/12/charted-the-religions-that-make-the-most-babies/
    Sinister
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    Scott_xP said:

    He was a Conservative.

    The clown that expelled him is not
    He had the whip restored. I don't defend Boris's tactics in that matter, such ruthlessness might work in the short term but could be problematic later on, but he was willing to return to the fold under Boris, even if he knew his days as MP were numbered.
  • WhisperingOracleWhisperingOracle Posts: 9,892
    edited February 2022
    MattW said:

    I think I would ask for a definition of 'spirituality', and I think that the generation you choose are likely to have something in their lives which meets that definition but are perhaps calling it something else.
    I agree with that in many ways, but I think the increasing taboo that I've noticed among younger people at naming anything not just religious, but actually also spiritual, has some quite fundamental implications.
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    Nicola Sturgeon becomes the latest to call for the PM to apologise https://twitter.com/nicolasturgeon/status/1490794570430435332
  • NEW THREAD

  • DecrepiterJohnLDecrepiterJohnL Posts: 29,641
    edited February 2022
    What he said
  • Scott_xPScott_xP Posts: 37,081
    A spokesman for the prime minister said: “He’s not actually a complete arsehole.”
    https://twitter.com/tompeck/status/1490798705376649223
    https://twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1490773801096953862
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,199
    rcs1000 said:

    I hope God and heaven and hell exist. For I should like Fred West and Idi Amin and Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot to pay for the misery and pain they caused other people.

    It would be a real shame if they just ceased to be.

    That's very Old Testament 'eye for an eye' thinking though! :lol:
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,818
    kle4 said:

    What if we don't have enough different words for types of blue in our particular language? Would we even see the difference between cyan and aquamarine and periwinkle?
    The Chinese have no distinction between green
    Scott_xP said:

    This morning

    Sajid Javid has called for people to "draw a line under" Boris Johnson's use of a Jimmy Savile slur last week https://trib.al/Rks8Sqv

    This evening

    I’m disgusted by the threatening and abusive behaviour experienced by @Keir_Starmer and @DavidLammy this evening.

    There’s no place for intimidation or harassment in our democracy. I’m grateful to the police for their swift intervention.

    https://twitter.com/sajidjavid/status/1490795533862158348


    Weasel

    Draw a line and move on, rather than patriotism, is the true last refuge of the scoundrel who knows they are on dodgy ground.
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968

    This is my hundred thousandth post on Vanilla.

    It needs to be profound.

    Pineapple does not belong on pizza.

    Hello Screaming Eagles. 🙋‍♀️ And we’ll done you!

    I am back from the ban someone placed on my account. I have managed to log in today for the first time in weeks.

    And the first thing I would like to comment on is this post here, rather than being profound is the most superficial post ever posted. To any social media. Ever. Pineapple works just fine as a pizza topping, in fact indispensable partnered with squid.

    Secondly - the reply to your post that got me the ban, I did over step the mark. In the bin of sin, imagining I was one of the “disappeared” for ever as Stodge put it, I reflected on my whole relationship with PB. I think I came to a fair conclusion: I have posted some pretty cute political analysis and made some good political and horsey betting calls at times - but, having had a saucy mind my entire life I have also posted far too much immature, over excited and irrelevant filth - for my second and final coming I intend to get the balance right.

    Everyone makes mistakes, it’s how we learn - and how we learn to grow up.

    So I don’t blame you at all, TSE, in fact, for the first time in weeks I can now properly apologise to you. Whatever your next pizza is, I hope you enjoy it 👍🏻

    (After removing all the fruit bringing the necessary balance to the flavour)
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Re: religion - the big lie (among others) in the US in particular is that a significant part of the country claiming that their "religious beliefs" are being violated is that they have seriously held religious beliefs guiding their actions. Essentially many of them are just people who hold political views and/or beliefs and have tailored their "religion" to match. Delve at all deeply and you find that the phrase "religious belief" does not have any link to religion. Beyond basically amounting to a proclaimed right to hold personal views and right to act in accordance with these, based on nothing more than a proclaimed right to freedom of action regardless of laws or the rights of others which might be impacted by them.

    One might call such people ultra libertarians, except that many arguing for the right to their own personal freedom don't actually extend this right to others.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,818
    No idea why the same line keeps being quoted in my posts.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 50,432
    kjh said:

    Yes and that is a much better argument than any of the ones I quoted in my post from others earlier. You have a distinct advantage over me in that respect because I believe he doesn't exist, but I don't know that, but you actually know he exits and I can't argue with that. I believe you are mistaken, but I have no conclusive argument against that point you make.
    My church has a fairly lackadaisical attitude to evangelism, in that it believes that there is no words or arguments that will convince anyone to believe. Only the direct experience of God's presence does so, and that is not something that any person can summon at will. Certain practices help prepare for the experience, but that transcendental experience comes when God thinks it right.

    I attended for several years, groping around in the dark before it happened, and when it did it was life changing. No point in telling how or the circumstances, as it is a different route as every individual seeking it.
  • HYUFD said:

    Kensington is now a marginal, Labour could win it as they did in 2017 and still not have enough seats to form a government
    Labour won Kensington in 2017 because the Lib Dem candidate went rogue and threw too many resources into the seat. It split the wealthy vote between them and the Tories. Emma Dent-Coad actually thanked the Lib Dem in her acceptance speech if I recall.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Stereodog said:

    Labour won Kensington in 2017 because the Lib Dem candidate went rogue and threw too many resources into the seat. It split the wealthy vote between them and the Tories. Emma Dent-Coad actually thanked the Lib Dem in her acceptance speech if I recall.
    Somewhat ironic then that the favour was reversed in 2019!
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 23,792

    Hello Screaming Eagles. 🙋‍♀️ And we’ll done you!

    I am back from the ban someone placed on my account. I have managed to log in today for the first time in weeks.

    And the first thing I would like to comment on is this post here, rather than being profound is the most superficial post ever posted. To any social media. Ever. Pineapple works just fine as a pizza topping, in fact indispensable partnered with squid.

    Secondly - the reply to your post that got me the ban, I did over step the mark. In the bin of sin, imagining I was one of the “disappeared” for ever as Stodge put it, I reflected on my whole relationship with PB. I think I came to a fair conclusion: I have posted some pretty cute political analysis and made some good political and horsey betting calls at times - but, having had a saucy mind my entire life I have also posted far too much immature, over excited and irrelevant filth - for my second and final coming I intend to get the balance right.

    Everyone makes mistakes, it’s how we learn - and how we learn to grow up.

    So I don’t blame you at all, TSE, in fact, for the first time in weeks I can now properly apologise to you. Whatever your next pizza is, I hope you enjoy it 👍🏻

    (After removing all the fruit bringing the necessary balance to the flavour)
    Welcome back.

    I hadn’t realised you’d been banned?

    Smutty pictures?
  • MoonRabbitMoonRabbit Posts: 13,968

    Welcome back.

    I hadn’t realised you’d been banned?

    Smutty pictures?
    You asking or selling?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,053
    edited February 2022
    I've been focusing too much on politics, even for me. I was watching the Lion King and kept thinking Boris was Scar, taking down May (Mufasa ignored one part of his kingdom, the 'citizens of nowhere' perhaps), and leading a hungry and desperate group of Hyenas (Tories) with the rather basic plea that they would never go hungry (for power) again, and he quickly led them to total power over the land, but it was led to ruin whilst the lioneses (ministers), waited on some entitled saviour (Rishi) to come and save them rather than act themselves. Now some of the hyenas are starting to tear him apart.
This discussion has been closed.