Batley & Spen – What happened in the May locals ward by ward – politicalbetting.com

RochdalePioneers said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:

"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"

Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.

And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...

I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.

It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.

And it certainly is rushed.

What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?

And thats fine. If people want to suffer endless spikes and lockdowns, say no to the rushed vaccine.

TOPPING said:

Leon said:

It would make an interesting PB poll of an evening:

How many of us know how many anti-vaxxers in our immediate circle?


I'm talking about immediate family members, perhaps as distant as close cousins, and good personal friends (people you can talk freely with over a drink)

I have two anti-vaxxers

One very close friend

And a sibling

Out of a total of about 30?

Anyone else?

A sibling? So you have anti vax genes? Worrying.

FrancisUrquhart said:

ping said:

Poor from Italy tbh

They’re failing to press their advantage

They are doing what Italy do...get ahead then minimize opponents chances.of scoring. 1-0 is plenty for them.

Its why nobody watches Serie A.

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:

"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"

Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.

And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...

I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.

It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.

And it certainly is rushed.

What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?

It’s not rushed in the sense of all the usual stages of testing have been done and we are now in stage IV testing (mass use, into the many millions). Could there be long term effects that we haven’t foreseen? Sure, anything is possible. But is it likely? Vanishingly small chance of a long term issue, and we are using phase IV trials to find the side effects that show in the short term ( such as clotting, that has sadly killed a tiny proportion of those who have had one of the vaccines).

I also asked what the timeframe was of these vs other vaccines. In those terms, ie in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed.

And who is anyone to say someone should take a risk no matter how small?

Sure, longer testing would have been ideal, but against that in the balance is rampaging disease in the community.

If it weren't for the vaccines, Delta would have us in a crisis as bad as the Second Wave.

Foxy said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

ping said:

Poor from Italy tbh

They’re failing to press their advantage

They are doing what Italy do...get ahead then minimize opponents chances.of scoring. 1-0 is plenty for them.

Its why nobody watches Serie A.

Italy have not parked the bus, this is no Catenaccio. They are getting the ball forward into attack frequently.

Credit to the Wales defence, and to LCFCs Ward in goal in particular.

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Anecdotages


A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"

A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"

Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!

A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.

What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?

Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?

So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?

Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:

(1) That he was an Amazon employee
(2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP

I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.

Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.

There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.

The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.

It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.

Leon said:

darkage said:

Leon said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:

"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"

Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.

And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...

I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.

It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.

And it certainly is rushed.

What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?

If everyone in the world made the "sane" decision to refuse the "rushed" vaccines, coronavirus would now be killing millions worldwide every month, its growth would be accelerating, and/or we would be locked into a permanent, apocalyptic lockdown

The argument is that they work at controlling the virus and it has been demonstrated that they do, evidenced by the rapid fall in hospitalisations since January. This is enough for me, even though I have concerns about the speed at which they were approved.

People aren't stupid for not taking the vaccine: if they think they are at low risk of the virus, happy to risk it, and are worried about unknown side effects then they should be able to refuse it. It may become an issue for them if they are working in settings with highly vulnerable people or travelling abroad but that is their problem.

Compelling people to take the vaccine is a terrible policy as is the continuation of lockdown, the two feed off each other, people have become vaccine totalitarians because they want to end lockdown, a better answer is to just give people back their freedom on all fronts.

I would not make the vaccine mandatory (except in certain jobs like care working), I WOULD make life difficult for the unvaxxed: I'd make it very hard to fly anywhere, and harder to use public transport, go into crowded spaces, etc

Every unvaxxed person is a potential reservoir of a mutant which might then threaten us all. Again

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Anecdotages


A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"

A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"

Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!

A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.

What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?

Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?

So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?

Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:

(1) That he was an Amazon employee
(2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP

I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.

Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.

There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.

The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.

It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.

At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences

They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger

FrancisUrquhart said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Anecdotages


A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"

A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"

Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!

A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.

What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?

Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?

So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?

Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:

(1) That he was an Amazon employee
(2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP

I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.

Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.

There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.

The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.

It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.

At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences

They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger

Its worth remembering as reported by Obama task force way before Trump, Russia were playing every side.

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:

"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"

Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.

And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...

I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.

It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.

And it certainly is rushed.

What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?

It’s not rushed in the sense of all the usual stages of testing have been done and we are now in stage IV testing (mass use, into the many millions). Could there be long term effects that we haven’t foreseen? Sure, anything is possible. But is it likely? Vanishingly small chance of a long term issue, and we are using phase IV trials to find the side effects that show in the short term ( such as clotting, that has sadly killed a tiny proportion of those who have had one of the vaccines).

I also asked what the timeframe was of these vs other vaccines. In those terms, ie in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed.

And who is anyone to say someone should take a risk no matter how small?

I am not sure that you can say 'in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed'. We simply have new technologies (genomics, computational biology, synthetic biology, massive computing power, proteomics) that enable us to design a vaccine in qualitatively different ways than we did in the past that shorten that stage of design from years to days.

For the rest - phases of the trials - they have followed the protocols as I understand them, albeit with an urgency and with red tape removed. That does not make it 'rushed' in the sense of 'diminished quality'.

Foxy said:

algarkirk said:

RochdalePioneers said:

algarkirk said:

Foxy said:

Cookie said:

beentheredonethat said:

isam said:

He has absolutely nailed it here. Describes almost every avid Remainer I know (as in know on the internet)

"Here in Britain, Labour is lumped in with a “big blob” of its own. Too often a loud part of that blob sounds like either a select priesthood, speaking to itself about questions that would strike most people as abstract angels-on-a-pinhead theology, or a self-appointed police force dispensing constant, scolding judgment, wagging its finger at the latest supposed infraction of progressive standards. It’s exhausting and so unappealing that even a serially dishonest and incompetent government – but one that seems to accept you, your country and your way of life without pursed-lipped judgment – seems preferable by comparison."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/18/byelection-johnson-progressive-alliance-educated-middle-class

Reading the grauniad comments I am struck by the wide division between those who accept the article has validity and those who absolutely refuse their reality. It rather makes Mr. Freedlands point for him.

There was a similar article in Unherd a couple of days ago, which concluded with a similar point:
People will often put up with being ruled by people who cheat them, or lie to them, or who mismanage the country - as recent polls illustrate. But they won't put up with being ruled by people who openly despise them.
https://unherd.com/2021/06/the-self-loathing-of-britains-elites/

Yes, I think that does explain the C and A result, people won't vote for those that despise them.

The C&A result is an ancient type of byelection result, with little evidence that it is about being despised and loads of evidence that it's about how to vote at byelections. Massive anti governments swings are common where the circumstances are right, and are usually altered back over time or by the next election. The new trend is the government winning against the opposition. The Tories are in with a chance (less chance than the bookies say) with this yet again.

The collapse of the non big urban (London) blue wall is massively overstated. Look at the map as a whole rather than a few interesting cases.

Freedland is excellent but still manages to take for granted that Labour is the right answer to the progressive cause. Maybe it isn't. Maybe the Tories are the most progressive party around.

If Labour stood where the Tories stand about the aspirational middling sort I would vote for them in GEs as I do in local elections. But nationally they are a crowd of uncommunicating enclaves of special interest groups who patronise people like me.

The Tories aren't progressive. And that isn't what the WWC red wallers want. They actively sought and voted for regressive politics. They're not booing the England team taking the knee because they want progressive politics.

Nice try, but you may be making some assumptions about what progress is about that aren't shared by the middling sort. Some people think virtue signalling is never progressive, but helping and supporting people is.

So what help and support for the victims of racism do the boo-ers engage in?

TOPPING said:

Foxy said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:

"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"

Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.

And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...

I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.

It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.

And it certainly is rushed.

What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?

It’s not rushed in the sense of all the usual stages of testing have been done and we are now in stage IV testing (mass use, into the many millions). Could there be long term effects that we haven’t foreseen? Sure, anything is possible. But is it likely? Vanishingly small chance of a long term issue, and we are using phase IV trials to find the side effects that show in the short term ( such as clotting, that has sadly killed a tiny proportion of those who have had one of the vaccines).

I also asked what the timeframe was of these vs other vaccines. In those terms, ie in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed.

And who is anyone to say someone should take a risk no matter how small?

Sure, longer testing would have been ideal, but against that in the balance is rampaging disease in the community.

If it weren't for the vaccines, Delta would have us in a crisis as bad as the Second Wave.

Undoubtedly. It was rushed.

Malmesbury said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:

"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"

Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.

And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...

I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.

It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.

And it certainly is rushed.

What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?

It’s not rushed in the sense of all the usual stages of testing have been done and we are now in stage IV testing (mass use, into the many millions). Could there be long term effects that we haven’t foreseen? Sure, anything is possible. But is it likely? Vanishingly small chance of a long term issue, and we are using phase IV trials to find the side effects that show in the short term ( such as clotting, that has sadly killed a tiny proportion of those who have had one of the vaccines).

I also asked what the timeframe was of these vs other vaccines. In those terms, ie in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed.

And who is anyone to say someone should take a risk no matter how small?

I am not sure that you can say 'in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed'. We simply have new technologies (genomics, computational biology, synthetic biology, massive computing power, proteomics) that enable us to design a vaccine in qualitatively different ways than we did in the past that shorten that stage of design from years to days.

For the rest - phases of the trials - they have followed the protocols as I understand them, albeit with an urgency and with red tape removed. That does not make it 'rushed' in the sense of 'diminished quality'.

The vaccines weren't new either - the basic infrastructure (so to speak) was there, with the specific target (COVID) added in.

Many new drugs are created very rapidly - the lengthy process of approval and manufacturing setup is not a requirement, but a traditional process, with lots of scope for speeding up.

Leon said:

Anecdotages


A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"

A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"

Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Anecdotages


A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"

A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"

Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!

A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.

What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?

Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?

So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?

Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:

(1) That he was an Amazon employee
(2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP

I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.

Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.

There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.

The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.

It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.

At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences

They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger

Fishing said:

RochdalePioneers said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

TOPPING said:

RochdalePioneers said:

Leon said:

One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:

"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"

Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.

And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...

I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.

It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.

And it certainly is rushed.

What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?

And thats fine. If people want to suffer endless spikes and lockdowns, say no to the rushed vaccine.

Yep. Democracy. Although it would be interesting to know the dynamic between a party promising to mandate vaccines or a party which said no lockdowns whatever the anti vax numbers.

I certainly don't agree with the forced vaccination of workers as the government have dictated. That's totally unacceptable.

I don't see it as unacceptable. People have to follow safety rules in workplaces all the time. And they can always get other jobs if they really don't want to.

Alistair said:

turbotubbs said:

Alistair said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

It is interesting after 15 months of this pandemic we still aren't totally sure about transmission vectors.

It's fucking infuriating.

Foolishly I would have thought this would have been pretty high up the research list after vaccine but apparently no scientist cares how it spreads.

See multiple posts above (below). We do know, its just that Regulations etc are never changed or walked back because ‘too confusing’.

No, we know it's primarily airborne but we lack so much more info.

Why are meat packing plants super spreader central? Sure, you can say a bunch of plausible stuff as to why but there's nothing definitive published as far as I'm aware.

There is a gaping void in the literature.

squareroot2 said:

Is it possible to deny China access tobthe internet?

rural_voter said:

Leon said:

Anecdotages


A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"

A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"

Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!

Maybe because the medical industry - hardly a profession any more, 90% of it's about $ - has consistently lied and stigmatised people who express reasonable scepticism or ask for broader studies to be done.

After 6 months of the high number of side-effects by vaccine standards being discussed on small websites, the UK 'normal' media have now started covering the problems

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4-000-women-report-period-problems-after-jab-3sdgwgx8v

About time. How many have died from ...

1) 'operation warp speed' therapies that never deserved an EUA (an EUA is illegal if treatments exist)

2) from withholding fluvoxamine, Ivermectin et al (which would save the NHS and foreign counterparts £100s of bn per yr).

Funnily, Youtube keeps taking down anything from Drs. Kory, Weinstein, Malone et al. I expect it'll censor the Sunday Times next ...

rural_voter said:

Leon said:

Anecdotages


A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"

A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"

Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!

Maybe because the medical industry - hardly a profession any more, 90% of it's about $ - has consistently lied and stigmatised people who express reasonable scepticism or ask for broader studies to be done.

After 6 months of the high number of side-effects by vaccine standards being discussed on small websites, the UK 'normal' media have now started covering the problems

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4-000-women-report-period-problems-after-jab-3sdgwgx8v

About time. How many have died from ...

1) 'operation warp speed' therapies that never deserved an EUA (an EUA is illegal if treatments exist)

2) from withholding fluvoxamine, Ivermectin et al (which would save the NHS and foreign counterparts £100s of bn per yr).

Funnily, Youtube keeps taking down anything from Drs. Kory, Weinstein, Malone et al. I expect it'll censor the Sunday Times next ...

ydoethur said:

Philip_Thompson said:

turbotubbs said:

ydoethur said:

alex_ said:

ydoethur said:

So Conway goes after the first fifty of the match.

Hard to see anything other than a draw however unless one side or another suffers a truly spectacular implosion.

Eh? It's day 2!

(I haven't checked the rules, but is there some provision about first innings lead winning in the event of a draw? Which would explain NZ cautious approach to date).

Day 2, with heavy rain forecast for day 3.

Which means at the start of day 4, we will have lost 12 wickets.

I’m backing a draw.

Technically it’s day 3, as Friday was wiped out, and they can use day 6. I guess it could be seen as day 2, but with no extra day...

It would have been fun if they'd made the final a Timeless Test.

Impractical though, given TV schedules.

Leon said:

It would make an interesting PB poll of an evening:

How many of us know how many anti-vaxxers in our immediate circle?


I'm talking about immediate family members, perhaps as distant as close cousins, and good personal friends (people you can talk freely with over a drink)

I have two anti-vaxxers

One very close friend

And a sibling

Out of a total of about 30?

Anyone else?

FrancisUrquhart said:

Rural house prices in England and Wales are increasing twice as fast as in cities, triggering a fresh affordability crisis for young people, with hot spots flaring up across the country from Lincolnshire to Lancashire as people seek more space post-pandemic.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/20/rural-house-prices-in-england-and-wales-rise-twice-as-fast-as-in-cities

darkage said:

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Anecdotages


A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"

A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"

Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!

A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.

What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?

Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?

So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?

Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:

(1) That he was an Amazon employee
(2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP

I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.

Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.

There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.

The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.

It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.

At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences

They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger

Yeah, and its only the start. The potential of deepfakes are limitless.

TOPPING said:

Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..

The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.

But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.

And still you don't get it.

TOPPING said:

tlg86 said:

I'm not aware of any anti-vaxxers in my social groups.

They would be easier to identify if they wore some kind of badge. Or marking. A star perhaps.

RochdalePioneers said:

MrEd said:

RochdalePioneers said:

MrEd said:

RochdalePioneers said:

algarkirk said:

Foxy said:

Cookie said:

beentheredonethat said:

isam said:

He has absolutely nailed it here. Describes almost every avid Remainer I know (as in know on the internet)

"Here in Britain, Labour is lumped in with a “big blob” of its own. Too often a loud part of that blob sounds like either a select priesthood, speaking to itself about questions that would strike most people as abstract angels-on-a-pinhead theology, or a self-appointed police force dispensing constant, scolding judgment, wagging its finger at the latest supposed infraction of progressive standards. It’s exhausting and so unappealing that even a serially dishonest and incompetent government – but one that seems to accept you, your country and your way of life without pursed-lipped judgment – seems preferable by comparison."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/18/byelection-johnson-progressive-alliance-educated-middle-class

Reading the grauniad comments I am struck by the wide division between those who accept the article has validity and those who absolutely refuse their reality. It rather makes Mr. Freedlands point for him.

There was a similar article in Unherd a couple of days ago, which concluded with a similar point:
People will often put up with being ruled by people who cheat them, or lie to them, or who mismanage the country - as recent polls illustrate. But they won't put up with being ruled by people who openly despise them.
https://unherd.com/2021/06/the-self-loathing-of-britains-elites/

Yes, I think that does explain the C and A result, people won't vote for those that despise them.

The C&A result is an ancient type of byelection result, with little evidence that it is about being despised and loads of evidence that it's about how to vote at byelections. Massive anti governments swings are common where the circumstances are right, and are usually altered back over time or by the next election. The new trend is the government winning against the opposition. The Tories are in with a chance (less chance than the bookies say) with this yet again.

The collapse of the non big urban (London) blue wall is massively overstated. Look at the map as a whole rather than a few interesting cases.

Freedland is excellent but still manages to take for granted that Labour is the right answer to the progressive cause. Maybe it isn't. Maybe the Tories are the most progressive party around.

If Labour stood where the Tories stand about the aspirational middling sort I would vote for them in GEs as I do in local elections. But nationally they are a crowd of uncommunicating enclaves of special interest groups who patronise people like me.

The Tories aren't progressive. And that isn't what the WWC red wallers want. They actively sought and voted for regressive politics. They're not booing the England team taking the knee because they want progressive politics.

Your comment @RochdalePioneers exemplifies - consciously or unconsciously - why Labour is having problems with WWC Red Wallers. Your assumption that “they actively sought and voted for regressive politics” is the - pardon the pun - Black and White view that is taken by groups such as BLM ie if you are not with us, you are against you. While there are undoubted racists, there are also a lot who sit in the Grey zone - they recognise racism exists and dislike it but don’t like being told they are privileged and / or “deserve” to be discriminated against because of their whiteness, especially as many of them are poor themselves.

I'm not in Labour remember and frankly having spent 15 years in the red wall in a town riddled with social deprivation I get what they have done. I am not sneering at them - their perspective is that "progressive" politics is every other group than them getting attention and money whilst they start with nothing and watch their community stay dirt poor.

This is why there are so many right wing independent groups formed in these kinds of areas. They can't stand Labour, they don't trust the Tories, so time to do it yourself.

I think that is broadly right but it’s not just the every other group getting the goodies, it’s also the feeling that they are being constantly sneered at and pushed aside. That is probably a stronger motivation to turn against Labour.

If you want a small example of this, look at the adverts going on for the Wales-Italy game on TV. There are plenty of adverts - in fact, virtually all - that feature non-white characters and, in the case of brands like Nike and (less so) Adidas pushing an agenda. Try counting the number of WWC characters in them.

Yup - thats what they think and they are of course wrong. We're seeing companies advertising diversity because that is society but until very recently you would never guess looking at adverts.

The idea that WWC men are being discriminated against is laughable. They're white and they're male - thats a major advantage that so many people don't have when being discriminated against by white men.

There absolutely is an issue with education and attainment and mobility for the WWC. Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in WWC areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so. Some of them feel pushed out by forrin labour because they are too lazy to work. Sorry, but someone has to call them out.

RochdalePioneers said:

MrEd said:

RochdalePioneers said:

MrEd said:

RochdalePioneers said:

algarkirk said:

Foxy said:

Cookie said:

beentheredonethat said:

isam said:

He has absolutely nailed it here. Describes almost every avid Remainer I know (as in know on the internet)

"Here in Britain, Labour is lumped in with a “big blob” of its own. Too often a loud part of that blob sounds like either a select priesthood, speaking to itself about questions that would strike most people as abstract angels-on-a-pinhead theology, or a self-appointed police force dispensing constant, scolding judgment, wagging its finger at the latest supposed infraction of progressive standards. It’s exhausting and so unappealing that even a serially dishonest and incompetent government – but one that seems to accept you, your country and your way of life without pursed-lipped judgment – seems preferable by comparison."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jun/18/byelection-johnson-progressive-alliance-educated-middle-class

Reading the grauniad comments I am struck by the wide division between those who accept the article has validity and those who absolutely refuse their reality. It rather makes Mr. Freedlands point for him.

There was a similar article in Unherd a couple of days ago, which concluded with a similar point:
People will often put up with being ruled by people who cheat them, or lie to them, or who mismanage the country - as recent polls illustrate. But they won't put up with being ruled by people who openly despise them.
https://unherd.com/2021/06/the-self-loathing-of-britains-elites/

Yes, I think that does explain the C and A result, people won't vote for those that despise them.

The C&A result is an ancient type of byelection result, with little evidence that it is about being despised and loads of evidence that it's about how to vote at byelections. Massive anti governments swings are common where the circumstances are right, and are usually altered back over time or by the next election. The new trend is the government winning against the opposition. The Tories are in with a chance (less chance than the bookies say) with this yet again.

The collapse of the non big urban (London) blue wall is massively overstated. Look at the map as a whole rather than a few interesting cases.

Freedland is excellent but still manages to take for granted that Labour is the right answer to the progressive cause. Maybe it isn't. Maybe the Tories are the most progressive party around.

If Labour stood where the Tories stand about the aspirational middling sort I would vote for them in GEs as I do in local elections. But nationally they are a crowd of uncommunicating enclaves of special interest groups who patronise people like me.

The Tories aren't progressive. And that isn't what the WWC red wallers want. They actively sought and voted for regressive politics. They're not booing the England team taking the knee because they want progressive politics.

Your comment @RochdalePioneers exemplifies - consciously or unconsciously - why Labour is having problems with WWC Red Wallers. Your assumption that “they actively sought and voted for regressive politics” is the - pardon the pun - Black and White view that is taken by groups such as BLM ie if you are not with us, you are against you. While there are undoubted racists, there are also a lot who sit in the Grey zone - they recognise racism exists and dislike it but don’t like being told they are privileged and / or “deserve” to be discriminated against because of their whiteness, especially as many of them are poor themselves.

I'm not in Labour remember and frankly having spent 15 years in the red wall in a town riddled with social deprivation I get what they have done. I am not sneering at them - their perspective is that "progressive" politics is every other group than them getting attention and money whilst they start with nothing and watch their community stay dirt poor.

This is why there are so many right wing independent groups formed in these kinds of areas. They can't stand Labour, they don't trust the Tories, so time to do it yourself.

I think that is broadly right but it’s not just the every other group getting the goodies, it’s also the feeling that they are being constantly sneered at and pushed aside. That is probably a stronger motivation to turn against Labour.

If you want a small example of this, look at the adverts going on for the Wales-Italy game on TV. There are plenty of adverts - in fact, virtually all - that feature non-white characters and, in the case of brands like Nike and (less so) Adidas pushing an agenda. Try counting the number of WWC characters in them.

Yup - thats what they think and they are of course wrong. We're seeing companies advertising diversity because that is society but until very recently you would never guess looking at adverts.

The idea that WWC men are being discriminated against is laughable. They're white and they're male - thats a major advantage that so many people don't have when being discriminated against by white men.

There absolutely is an issue with education and attainment and mobility for the WWC. Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in WWC areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so. Some of them feel pushed out by forrin labour because they are too lazy to work. Sorry, but someone has to call them out.

Leon said:

TOPPING said:

Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..

The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.

But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.

And still you don't get it.

Alternatively, your commentary is so boring no one can be arsed to respond

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

TOPPING said:

Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..

The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.

But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.

And still you don't get it.

Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?

No idea.

I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:

"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation

Carnyx said:

TOPPING said:

tlg86 said:

I'm not aware of any anti-vaxxers in my social groups.

They would be easier to identify if they wore some kind of badge. Or marking. A star perhaps.

No. A little bell would be so much better. As already helpfully discussed as regards cyclists and joggers.

IanB2 said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Rural house prices in England and Wales are increasing twice as fast as in cities, triggering a fresh affordability crisis for young people, with hot spots flaring up across the country from Lincolnshire to Lancashire as people seek more space post-pandemic.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/20/rural-house-prices-in-england-and-wales-rise-twice-as-fast-as-in-cities

All but one of the properties in the estate agent’s window here right now are properties “sold in 2021”, things are going so fast.

Yokes said:

The problem is not that people decide they dont want the vaccine, thats a choice and the libertarian in me wouldnt like compulsion, especially since voluntary uptake is very high

The problem with some refusniks is the why. I know one person who has rejected it and they are into the wider Looney Toon movement, that believes Trump was due to retake power about 3 times since January and so on. The maddening nature of it is its zealotry, a kind of direct inverse to the politicised madness masquerading as science of Independent Sage.

No attempt to elicit sensible consideration is possible.

Yokes said:

Let me change that slightly and see how it makes you feel.

'Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in majority black or Bangladeshi areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so.'

Does that apply or is it verboten because minorities are involved?

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

JohnLilburne said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

TOPPING said:

Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..

The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.

But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.

And still you don't get it.

Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?

No idea.

I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:

"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation

Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination

I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.

"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."

Because the whole world didn't drop everything and prioritise Ebola.

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

JohnLilburne said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

TOPPING said:

Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..

The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.

But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.

And still you don't get it.

Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?

No idea.

I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:

"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation

Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination

I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.

"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."

Because the whole world didn't drop everything and prioritise Ebola.

Exactly. We rushed it.

Ratters said:

I respect people's right not to get vaccinated, but equally such people should also not expect society to do anything whatsoever to stop the spread of Covid. Fully packed nightclubs and gigs with thousands of people in enclosed spaces included, with no testing before or after.

I quizzed my family and my mum had one friend who refused who was in her early 70s, seemingly because she is into alternative medicine nonsense. I'm not sure all anti-vaxers realise the risk they are exposing themselves to when we let things loose.

Leon said:

rcs1000 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

rcs1000 said:

Leon said:

Anecdotages


A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"

A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"

Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!

A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.

What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?

Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?

So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?

Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:

(1) That he was an Amazon employee
(2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP

I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.

Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.

There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.

The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.

It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.

At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences

They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

JohnLilburne said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

TOPPING said:

Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..

The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.

But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.

And still you don't get it.

Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?

No idea.

I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:

"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation

Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination

I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.

"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."

Because the whole world didn't drop everything and prioritise Ebola.

Exactly. We rushed it.

No, we didn't. We put in what was needed to get it done.

TOPPING said:

alex_ said:

TOPPING said:

JohnLilburne said:

TOPPING said:

turbotubbs said:

TOPPING said:

Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..

The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.

But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.

And still you don't get it.

Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?

No idea.

I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:

"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."

https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation

Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination

I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.

"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."

They didn’t exactly have an enormous pool of people in which to test and measure the effectiveness of Ebola vaccines. And you’re hardly going to get volunteers willing to be infected with “mild” forms of the virus to speed it up further.

Yes I'm sure. At least you're now accepting that the vaccine was new and they did most of the trials in the real world with us lot.

RochdalePioneers said:

Yokes said:

Let me change that slightly and see how it makes you feel.

'Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in majority black or Bangladeshi areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so.'

Does that apply or is it verboten because minorities are involved?

It doesn't apply because it isn't true. As I said, ethnicity isn't the issue. Not giving a fuck is the issue. We aren't talking about people in areas where work is scarce or miles away. We're talking about decent jobs that certain parts of the WWC won't do and then get arsey when other people are brought in to fill the roles.

The turnaround in politics is that this demographic has swung massively Tory. The days of Tory cabinet ministers giving conference speeches slagging off single mothers or multi-generational unemployment in areas where they smashed industry are long past.