One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
And thats fine. If people want to suffer endless spikes and lockdowns, say no to the rushed vaccine.
Yep. Democracy. Although it would be interesting to know the dynamic between a party promising to mandate vaccines or a party which said no lockdowns whatever the anti vax numbers.
It would make an interesting PB poll of an evening:
How many of us know how many anti-vaxxers in our immediate circle?
I'm talking about immediate family members, perhaps as distant as close cousins, and good personal friends (people you can talk freely with over a drink)
I have two anti-vaxxers
One very close friend
And a sibling
Out of a total of about 30?
Anyone else?
Zero.
My mates and family couldn't wait to get their hands on it and get this bastard over with.
It would make an interesting PB poll of an evening:
How many of us know how many anti-vaxxers in our immediate circle?
I'm talking about immediate family members, perhaps as distant as close cousins, and good personal friends (people you can talk freely with over a drink)
I have two anti-vaxxers
One very close friend
And a sibling
Out of a total of about 30?
Anyone else?
A sibling? So you have anti vax genes? Worrying.
Are you an anti-vaxxer?
Genuine question. You do bang on about it, quite a lot
As for my question I'm just trying to work out the percentage of anti-vaxxers in different communities, by using PB
My family are middle class white British, my friends are the same, with a few Europeans, Chinese, Americans. All educated, to a fairly high degree
2 out of 30 (30 is a very rough guess, but hey) gives an anti-vax percentage, population-wide of 5-10%, which seems reasonable
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
And thats fine. If people want to suffer endless spikes and lockdowns, say no to the rushed vaccine.
Yep. Democracy. Although it would be interesting to know the dynamic between a party promising to mandate vaccines or a party which said no lockdowns whatever the anti vax numbers.
I certainly don't agree with the forced vaccination of workers as the government have dictated. That's totally unacceptable.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
If everyone in the world made the "sane" decision to refuse the "rushed" vaccines, coronavirus would now be killing millions worldwide every month, its growth would be accelerating, and/or we would be locked into a permanent, apocalyptic lockdown
The argument is that they work at controlling the virus and it has been demonstrated that they do, evidenced by the rapid fall in hospitalisations since January. This is enough for me, even though I have concerns about the speed at which they were approved.
People aren't stupid for not taking the vaccine: if they think they are at low risk of the virus, happy to risk it, and are worried about unknown side effects then they should be able to refuse it. It may become an issue for them if they are working in settings with highly vulnerable people or travelling abroad but that is their problem.
Compelling people to take the vaccine is a terrible policy as is the continuation of lockdown, the two feed off each other, people have become vaccine totalitarians because they want to end lockdown, a better answer is to just give people back their freedom on all fronts.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
It’s not rushed in the sense of all the usual stages of testing have been done and we are now in stage IV testing (mass use, into the many millions). Could there be long term effects that we haven’t foreseen? Sure, anything is possible. But is it likely? Vanishingly small chance of a long term issue, and we are using phase IV trials to find the side effects that show in the short term ( such as clotting, that has sadly killed a tiny proportion of those who have had one of the vaccines).
I also asked what the timeframe was of these vs other vaccines. In those terms, ie in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed.
And who is anyone to say someone should take a risk no matter how small?
I am not sure that you can say 'in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed'. We simply have new technologies (genomics, computational biology, synthetic biology, massive computing power, proteomics) that enable us to design a vaccine in qualitatively different ways than we did in the past that shorten that stage of design from years to days.
For the rest - phases of the trials - they have followed the protocols as I understand them, albeit with an urgency and with red tape removed. That does not make it 'rushed' in the sense of 'diminished quality'.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
It’s not rushed in the sense of all the usual stages of testing have been done and we are now in stage IV testing (mass use, into the many millions). Could there be long term effects that we haven’t foreseen? Sure, anything is possible. But is it likely? Vanishingly small chance of a long term issue, and we are using phase IV trials to find the side effects that show in the short term ( such as clotting, that has sadly killed a tiny proportion of those who have had one of the vaccines).
I also asked what the timeframe was of these vs other vaccines. In those terms, ie in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed.
And who is anyone to say someone should take a risk no matter how small?
Sure, longer testing would have been ideal, but against that in the balance is rampaging disease in the community.
If it weren't for the vaccines, Delta would have us in a crisis as bad as the Second Wave.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
If everyone in the world made the "sane" decision to refuse the "rushed" vaccines, coronavirus would now be killing millions worldwide every month, its growth would be accelerating, and/or we would be locked into a permanent, apocalyptic lockdown
The argument is that they work at controlling the virus and it has been demonstrated that they do, evidenced by the rapid fall in hospitalisations since January. This is enough for me, even though I have concerns about the speed at which they were approved.
People aren't stupid for not taking the vaccine: if they think they are at low risk of the virus, happy to risk it, and are worried about unknown side effects then they should be able to refuse it. It may become an issue for them if they are working in settings with highly vulnerable people or travelling abroad but that is their problem.
Compelling people to take the vaccine is a terrible policy as is the continuation of lockdown, the two feed off each other, people have become vaccine totalitarians because they want to end lockdown, a better answer is to just give people back their freedom on all fronts.
I would not make the vaccine mandatory (except in certain jobs like care working), I WOULD make life difficult for the unvaxxed: I'd make it very hard to fly anywhere, and harder to use public transport, go into crowded spaces, etc
Every unvaxxed person is a potential reservoir of a mutant which might then threaten us all. Again
They are doing what Italy do...get ahead then minimize opponents chances.of scoring. 1-0 is plenty for them.
Its why nobody watches Serie A.
Italy have not parked the bus, this is no Catenaccio. They are getting the ball forward into attack frequently.
Credit to the Wales defence, and to LCFCs Ward in goal in particular.
I didn't say they had. But they aren't going all guns blazing. They are controlling the game, and if Wales get forward very quick with the niggling fouls just slowing it down.
You show your studs at this level you are playing with fire. Hope Wales can hang on and avoid a shellacking. But the card is fair.
In Sunday League football known as a solid challenge....
A challenge like that in Sunday league football would probably result in 3 red cards. One for the challenge, and a couple more as a result of the ensuing melee. So I suppose you're right about games ending with 9 men!
In Sunday football the tackler gets let off and the player fouled gets sent off for swearing at the ref. I have been sent off about a dozen times and never injured a player. The refereeing is stuck in the 70s
So Conway goes after the first fifty of the match.
Hard to see anything other than a draw however unless one side or another suffers a truly spectacular implosion.
Eh? It's day 2!
(I haven't checked the rules, but is there some provision about first innings lead winning in the event of a draw? Which would explain NZ cautious approach to date).
Day 2, with heavy rain forecast for day 3.
Which means at the start of day 4, we will have lost 12 wickets.
I’m backing a draw.
Technically it’s day 3, as Friday was wiped out, and they can use day 6. I guess it could be seen as day 2, but with no extra day...
It would have been fun if they'd made the final a Timeless Test.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
I think that troll got a bit of a shock how fast PB brain trust had his number.....about 2 mins, debunked the nonsense and outed as just parroting a dodgy twitter account word for word.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
It's not necessarily insanity to not want to get a vaccine. What is clearly insane is the reasons that huge numbers of people give for doing so.
Hmm. Are you the guy judging people's excuses? Or is it someone in govt? I'd quite like to do it if the job is on offer.
If you break the surface of anti-vaxx social media i think you may conclude that it is absolutely valid to judge the insanity of some of the theories floating about and clearly believed by large numbers of people.
Pfizer must have given over half a billion doses by now. It’s hardly a small experiment at this point.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
I missed that one! Must have been while I was at work. Do you have a link? Sounds quite fun...
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences
They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
If everyone in the world made the "sane" decision to refuse the "rushed" vaccines, coronavirus would now be killing millions worldwide every month, its growth would be accelerating, and/or we would be locked into a permanent, apocalyptic lockdown
The argument is that they work at controlling the virus and it has been demonstrated that they do, evidenced by the rapid fall in hospitalisations since January. This is enough for me, even though I have concerns about the speed at which they were approved.
People aren't stupid for not taking the vaccine: if they think they are at low risk of the virus, happy to risk it, and are worried about unknown side effects then they should be able to refuse it. It may become an issue for them if they are working in settings with highly vulnerable people or travelling abroad but that is their problem.
Compelling people to take the vaccine is a terrible policy as is the continuation of lockdown, the two feed off each other, people have become vaccine totalitarians because they want to end lockdown, a better answer is to just give people back their freedom on all fronts.
I would not make the vaccine mandatory (except in certain jobs like care working), I WOULD make life difficult for the unvaxxed: I'd make it very hard to fly anywhere, and harder to use public transport, go into crowded spaces, etc
Every unvaxxed person is a potential reservoir of a mutant which might then threaten us all. Again
I think history indicates that mandatory vaccination programmes actually result in lower final uptake than well-managed voluntary ones. Don't have a reference for that, but I am sure I read it somewhere early in this pandemic.
It would make an interesting PB poll of an evening:
How many of us know how many anti-vaxxers in our immediate circle?
I'm talking about immediate family members, perhaps as distant as close cousins, and good personal friends (people you can talk freely with over a drink)
I have two anti-vaxxers
One very close friend
And a sibling
Out of a total of about 30?
Anyone else?
A sibling? So you have anti vax genes? Worrying.
Are you an anti-vaxxer?
Genuine question. You do bang on about it, quite a lot
As for my question I'm just trying to work out the percentage of anti-vaxxers in different communities, by using PB
My family are middle class white British, my friends are the same, with a few Europeans, Chinese, Americans. All educated, to a fairly high degree
2 out of 30 (30 is a very rough guess, but hey) gives an anti-vax percentage, population-wide of 5-10%, which seems reasonable
I bang on about it because I am worried about the government's abuses of our freedom and the willingness of people to accept unprecedented restrictions on their liberty.
A people scared. The UK scared, as evidenced by the vitriol poured on anti vaxxers here on PB.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences
They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger
Its worth remembering as reported by Obama task force way before Trump, Russia were playing every side in the US e.g. set up a Facebook for Black Baptist Church goers, months of talk about all things Christian, then throw in story of racist crime...and at same time, a white Christian church group, same but throw in black on white crime.
It is interesting after 15 months of this pandemic we still aren't totally sure about transmission vectors.
It's fucking infuriating.
Foolishly I would have thought this would have been pretty high up the research list after vaccine but apparently no scientist cares how it spreads.
See multiple posts above (below). We do know, its just that Regulations etc are never changed or walked back because ‘too confusing’.
No, we know it's primarily airborne but we lack so much more info.
Why are meat packing plants super spreader central? Sure, you can say a bunch of plausible stuff as to why but there's nothing definitive published as far as I'm aware.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences
They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger
Its worth remembering as reported by Obama task force way before Trump, Russia were playing every side.
This is an absolutely crucial point: they aren't there to help Trump (or whoever), they are there to sow discord. If it had been a narrow Trump win, the bot farms would have been ramped up to persuade Democrats the election had been stolen.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
If everyone in the world made the "sane" decision to refuse the "rushed" vaccines, coronavirus would now be killing millions worldwide every month, its growth would be accelerating, and/or we would be locked into a permanent, apocalyptic lockdown
The argument is that they work at controlling the virus and it has been demonstrated that they do, evidenced by the rapid fall in hospitalisations since January. This is enough for me, even though I have concerns about the speed at which they were approved.
People aren't stupid for not taking the vaccine: if they think they are at low risk of the virus, happy to risk it, and are worried about unknown side effects then they should be able to refuse it. It may become an issue for them if they are working in settings with highly vulnerable people or travelling abroad but that is their problem.
Compelling people to take the vaccine is a terrible policy as is the continuation of lockdown, the two feed off each other, people have become vaccine totalitarians because they want to end lockdown, a better answer is to just give people back their freedom on all fronts.
I would not make the vaccine mandatory (except in certain jobs like care working), I WOULD make life difficult for the unvaxxed: I'd make it very hard to fly anywhere, and harder to use public transport, go into crowded spaces, etc
Every unvaxxed person is a potential reservoir of a mutant which might then threaten us all. Again
But isn't it true that someone vaccinated is can carry and spread a mutant variant - ie people who are vaccinated can as I understand it carry the current problematic delta variant?
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
It’s not rushed in the sense of all the usual stages of testing have been done and we are now in stage IV testing (mass use, into the many millions). Could there be long term effects that we haven’t foreseen? Sure, anything is possible. But is it likely? Vanishingly small chance of a long term issue, and we are using phase IV trials to find the side effects that show in the short term ( such as clotting, that has sadly killed a tiny proportion of those who have had one of the vaccines).
I also asked what the timeframe was of these vs other vaccines. In those terms, ie in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed.
And who is anyone to say someone should take a risk no matter how small?
I am not sure that you can say 'in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed'. We simply have new technologies (genomics, computational biology, synthetic biology, massive computing power, proteomics) that enable us to design a vaccine in qualitatively different ways than we did in the past that shorten that stage of design from years to days.
For the rest - phases of the trials - they have followed the protocols as I understand them, albeit with an urgency and with red tape removed. That does not make it 'rushed' in the sense of 'diminished quality'.
The vaccines weren't new either - the basic infrastructure (so to speak) was there, with the specific target (COVID) added in.
Many new drugs are created very rapidly - the lengthy process of approval and manufacturing setup is not a requirement, but a traditional process, with lots of scope for speeding up.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
And thats fine. If people want to suffer endless spikes and lockdowns, say no to the rushed vaccine.
Yep. Democracy. Although it would be interesting to know the dynamic between a party promising to mandate vaccines or a party which said no lockdowns whatever the anti vax numbers.
I certainly don't agree with the forced vaccination of workers as the government have dictated. That's totally unacceptable.
I don't see it as unacceptable. People have to follow safety rules in workplaces all the time. And they can always get other jobs if they really don't want to.
He has absolutely nailed it here. Describes almost every avid Remainer I know (as in know on the internet)
"Here in Britain, Labour is lumped in with a “big blob” of its own. Too often a loud part of that blob sounds like either a select priesthood, speaking to itself about questions that would strike most people as abstract angels-on-a-pinhead theology, or a self-appointed police force dispensing constant, scolding judgment, wagging its finger at the latest supposed infraction of progressive standards. It’s exhausting and so unappealing that even a serially dishonest and incompetent government – but one that seems to accept you, your country and your way of life without pursed-lipped judgment – seems preferable by comparison."
Reading the grauniad comments I am struck by the wide division between those who accept the article has validity and those who absolutely refuse their reality. It rather makes Mr. Freedlands point for him.
There was a similar article in Unherd a couple of days ago, which concluded with a similar point: People will often put up with being ruled by people who cheat them, or lie to them, or who mismanage the country - as recent polls illustrate. But they won't put up with being ruled by people who openly despise them. https://unherd.com/2021/06/the-self-loathing-of-britains-elites/
Yes, I think that does explain the C and A result, people won't vote for those that despise them.
The C&A result is an ancient type of byelection result, with little evidence that it is about being despised and loads of evidence that it's about how to vote at byelections. Massive anti governments swings are common where the circumstances are right, and are usually altered back over time or by the next election. The new trend is the government winning against the opposition. The Tories are in with a chance (less chance than the bookies say) with this yet again.
The collapse of the non big urban (London) blue wall is massively overstated. Look at the map as a whole rather than a few interesting cases.
Freedland is excellent but still manages to take for granted that Labour is the right answer to the progressive cause. Maybe it isn't. Maybe the Tories are the most progressive party around.
If Labour stood where the Tories stand about the aspirational middling sort I would vote for them in GEs as I do in local elections. But nationally they are a crowd of uncommunicating enclaves of special interest groups who patronise people like me.
The Tories aren't progressive. And that isn't what the WWC red wallers want. They actively sought and voted for regressive politics. They're not booing the England team taking the knee because they want progressive politics.
Nice try, but you may be making some assumptions about what progress is about that aren't shared by the middling sort. Some people think virtue signalling is never progressive, but helping and supporting people is.
So what help and support for the victims of racism do the boo-ers engage in?
If you believe blm is divisive and does more to promote racial disharmony than the problems it purports to fix then showing your contempt for it is the positive thing to do.
Before you whine on about taking the knee isn't connected to blm remember people like you claim the england flag is associated with racism because people like the bnp use it. BLM use taking the knee...it is therefore tainted by those arses
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
It's not necessarily insanity to not want to get a vaccine. What is clearly insane is the reasons that huge numbers of people give for doing so.
Hmm. Are you the guy judging people's excuses? Or is it someone in govt? I'd quite like to do it if the job is on offer.
If you break the surface of anti-vaxx social media i think you may conclude that it is absolutely valid to judge the insanity of some of the theories floating about and clearly believed by large numbers of people.
Pfizer must have given over half a billion doses by now. It’s hardly a small experiment at this point.
1.5 billion vaccine doses have been administered outside of China, so your estimate may (if anything) be a little low.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
It’s not rushed in the sense of all the usual stages of testing have been done and we are now in stage IV testing (mass use, into the many millions). Could there be long term effects that we haven’t foreseen? Sure, anything is possible. But is it likely? Vanishingly small chance of a long term issue, and we are using phase IV trials to find the side effects that show in the short term ( such as clotting, that has sadly killed a tiny proportion of those who have had one of the vaccines).
I also asked what the timeframe was of these vs other vaccines. In those terms, ie in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed.
And who is anyone to say someone should take a risk no matter how small?
Sure, longer testing would have been ideal, but against that in the balance is rampaging disease in the community.
If it weren't for the vaccines, Delta would have us in a crisis as bad as the Second Wave.
Undoubtedly. It was rushed.
We’ve had vaccination for hundreds of years. All that has happened in the last 18 months is built on the idea of showing body part of the pathogen to train its response. How you do that varies. The mRNA vaccines are a new approach, but achieve the same result, hijacking the body to produce the crucial part of the pathogen. Other vaccines are more ‘conventional’. Take the annual flu jab - this is ‘new’ each year, tailored to fit the most likely variant in circulation. Do you regard this as ‘rushed’ too?
So Conway goes after the first fifty of the match.
Hard to see anything other than a draw however unless one side or another suffers a truly spectacular implosion.
Eh? It's day 2!
(I haven't checked the rules, but is there some provision about first innings lead winning in the event of a draw? Which would explain NZ cautious approach to date).
Day 2, with heavy rain forecast for day 3.
Which means at the start of day 4, we will have lost 12 wickets.
I’m backing a draw.
Technically it’s day 3, as Friday was wiped out, and they can use day 6. I guess it could be seen as day 2, but with no extra day...
It would have been fun if they'd made the final a Timeless Test.
Impractical though, given TV schedules.
Yeah, Sky have got some pretty crucial repeats to run on the cricket channel.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
It’s not rushed in the sense of all the usual stages of testing have been done and we are now in stage IV testing (mass use, into the many millions). Could there be long term effects that we haven’t foreseen? Sure, anything is possible. But is it likely? Vanishingly small chance of a long term issue, and we are using phase IV trials to find the side effects that show in the short term ( such as clotting, that has sadly killed a tiny proportion of those who have had one of the vaccines).
I also asked what the timeframe was of these vs other vaccines. In those terms, ie in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed.
And who is anyone to say someone should take a risk no matter how small?
I am not sure that you can say 'in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed'. We simply have new technologies (genomics, computational biology, synthetic biology, massive computing power, proteomics) that enable us to design a vaccine in qualitatively different ways than we did in the past that shorten that stage of design from years to days.
For the rest - phases of the trials - they have followed the protocols as I understand them, albeit with an urgency and with red tape removed. That does not make it 'rushed' in the sense of 'diminished quality'.
The vaccines weren't new either - the basic infrastructure (so to speak) was there, with the specific target (COVID) added in.
Many new drugs are created very rapidly - the lengthy process of approval and manufacturing setup is not a requirement, but a traditional process, with lots of scope for speeding up.
"Lengthy process of approval..."
ie this one was rushed vs normal.
Look it's fine thank god they rushed it imo. But it was rushed.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences
They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger
As an aside, that's one of the arguments against aliens. That is: the US government is attempting to flood social media with a story so big, it's unignorable.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
Maybe because the medical industry - hardly a profession any more, 90% of it's about $ - has consistently lied and stigmatised people who express reasonable scepticism or ask for broader studies to be done.
After 6 months of the high number of side-effects by vaccine standards being discussed on small websites, the UK 'normal' media have now started covering the problems
He has absolutely nailed it here. Describes almost every avid Remainer I know (as in know on the internet)
"Here in Britain, Labour is lumped in with a “big blob” of its own. Too often a loud part of that blob sounds like either a select priesthood, speaking to itself about questions that would strike most people as abstract angels-on-a-pinhead theology, or a self-appointed police force dispensing constant, scolding judgment, wagging its finger at the latest supposed infraction of progressive standards. It’s exhausting and so unappealing that even a serially dishonest and incompetent government – but one that seems to accept you, your country and your way of life without pursed-lipped judgment – seems preferable by comparison."
Reading the grauniad comments I am struck by the wide division between those who accept the article has validity and those who absolutely refuse their reality. It rather makes Mr. Freedlands point for him.
There was a similar article in Unherd a couple of days ago, which concluded with a similar point: People will often put up with being ruled by people who cheat them, or lie to them, or who mismanage the country - as recent polls illustrate. But they won't put up with being ruled by people who openly despise them. https://unherd.com/2021/06/the-self-loathing-of-britains-elites/
Yes, I think that does explain the C and A result, people won't vote for those that despise them.
The C&A result is an ancient type of byelection result, with little evidence that it is about being despised and loads of evidence that it's about how to vote at byelections. Massive anti governments swings are common where the circumstances are right, and are usually altered back over time or by the next election. The new trend is the government winning against the opposition. The Tories are in with a chance (less chance than the bookies say) with this yet again.
The collapse of the non big urban (London) blue wall is massively overstated. Look at the map as a whole rather than a few interesting cases.
Freedland is excellent but still manages to take for granted that Labour is the right answer to the progressive cause. Maybe it isn't. Maybe the Tories are the most progressive party around.
If Labour stood where the Tories stand about the aspirational middling sort I would vote for them in GEs as I do in local elections. But nationally they are a crowd of uncommunicating enclaves of special interest groups who patronise people like me.
The Tories aren't progressive. And that isn't what the WWC red wallers want. They actively sought and voted for regressive politics. They're not booing the England team taking the knee because they want progressive politics.
Your comment @RochdalePioneers exemplifies - consciously or unconsciously - why Labour is having problems with WWC Red Wallers. Your assumption that “they actively sought and voted for regressive politics” is the - pardon the pun - Black and White view that is taken by groups such as BLM ie if you are not with us, you are against you. While there are undoubted racists, there are also a lot who sit in the Grey zone - they recognise racism exists and dislike it but don’t like being told they are privileged and / or “deserve” to be discriminated against because of their whiteness, especially as many of them are poor themselves.
I'm not in Labour remember and frankly having spent 15 years in the red wall in a town riddled with social deprivation I get what they have done. I am not sneering at them - their perspective is that "progressive" politics is every other group than them getting attention and money whilst they start with nothing and watch their community stay dirt poor.
This is why there are so many right wing independent groups formed in these kinds of areas. They can't stand Labour, they don't trust the Tories, so time to do it yourself.
I think that is broadly right but it’s not just the every other group getting the goodies, it’s also the feeling that they are being constantly sneered at and pushed aside. That is probably a stronger motivation to turn against Labour.
If you want a small example of this, look at the adverts going on for the Wales-Italy game on TV. There are plenty of adverts - in fact, virtually all - that feature non-white characters and, in the case of brands like Nike and (less so) Adidas pushing an agenda. Try counting the number of WWC characters in them.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences
They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger
Yeah, and its only the start. The potential of deepfakes are limitless.
"There is a progressive majority that could win if it were committed to a basic electoral non-aggression pact, with constitutional reform as the outcome. That’s the salient fact. Anyone who calls themselves a “politician” while ignoring it ought to quit."
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
And thats fine. If people want to suffer endless spikes and lockdowns, say no to the rushed vaccine.
Yep. Democracy. Although it would be interesting to know the dynamic between a party promising to mandate vaccines or a party which said no lockdowns whatever the anti vax numbers.
I certainly don't agree with the forced vaccination of workers as the government have dictated. That's totally unacceptable.
I don't see it as unacceptable. People have to follow safety rules in workplaces all the time. And they can always get other jobs if they really don't want to.
There a number of jobs where you require specific vaccinations. Some in the medical world. Yellow fever is a the classic example of this.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
It’s not rushed in the sense of all the usual stages of testing have been done and we are now in stage IV testing (mass use, into the many millions). Could there be long term effects that we haven’t foreseen? Sure, anything is possible. But is it likely? Vanishingly small chance of a long term issue, and we are using phase IV trials to find the side effects that show in the short term ( such as clotting, that has sadly killed a tiny proportion of those who have had one of the vaccines).
I also asked what the timeframe was of these vs other vaccines. In those terms, ie in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed.
And who is anyone to say someone should take a risk no matter how small?
I am not sure that you can say 'in vaccine development timeframe terms it has been rushed'. We simply have new technologies (genomics, computational biology, synthetic biology, massive computing power, proteomics) that enable us to design a vaccine in qualitatively different ways than we did in the past that shorten that stage of design from years to days.
For the rest - phases of the trials - they have followed the protocols as I understand them, albeit with an urgency and with red tape removed. That does not make it 'rushed' in the sense of 'diminished quality'.
The vaccines weren't new either - the basic infrastructure (so to speak) was there, with the specific target (COVID) added in.
Many new drugs are created very rapidly - the lengthy process of approval and manufacturing setup is not a requirement, but a traditional process, with lots of scope for speeding up.
"Lengthy process of approval..."
ie this one was rushed vs normal.
Look it's fine thank god they rushed it imo. But it was rushed.
In no way rushed. They have mostly just received emergency authorisation, and hence I’m not yet at the stage that compulsory vaccination for health care is right, but I’d support it they have been given full approval.
It is interesting after 15 months of this pandemic we still aren't totally sure about transmission vectors.
It's fucking infuriating.
Foolishly I would have thought this would have been pretty high up the research list after vaccine but apparently no scientist cares how it spreads.
See multiple posts above (below). We do know, its just that Regulations etc are never changed or walked back because ‘too confusing’.
No, we know it's primarily airborne but we lack so much more info.
Why are meat packing plants super spreader central? Sure, you can say a bunch of plausible stuff as to why but there's nothing definitive published as far as I'm aware.
There is a gaping void in the literature.
Ummm.
Have you ever been in a meat processing plant?
It's a place with lots of people working closely together in a space and where there is a requirement to shout to your next door neighbour.
Long before CV19, there was a massive amount of research about how people who work in those environments are more likely to catch respirotory illnesses. See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5355534/ for example.
One of my friends mentioned downthread has texted me again:
"Sister, dad, mum, step dad, cousin are all anti-vax"
Imagine the familial pressure on him? He's basically the only one sane.
And his family is well-educated, degrees everywhere, step-father an architect in Germany...
I don't get it. This isn't some half-baked unsafe rush-job being forced on people for no reason. This is a global calamity and the jab is the only way to get it under control.
It is perfectly sane to refuse any vaccine.
And it certainly is rushed.
What is the timeframe vs other vaccine development timeframes?
And thats fine. If people want to suffer endless spikes and lockdowns, say no to the rushed vaccine.
Yep. Democracy. Although it would be interesting to know the dynamic between a party promising to mandate vaccines or a party which said no lockdowns whatever the anti vax numbers.
I certainly don't agree with the forced vaccination of workers as the government have dictated. That's totally unacceptable.
I don't see it as unacceptable. People have to follow safety rules in workplaces all the time. And they can always get other jobs if they really don't want to.
This isn't "pointless red tape" / health & safety laws. This is a government ruling by decree. If parliament want to pass a law mandating vaccinations for certain professions then lets have MPs stand up and debate it.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
Maybe because the medical industry - hardly a profession any more, 90% of it's about $ - has consistently lied and stigmatised people who express reasonable scepticism or ask for broader studies to be done.
After 6 months of the high number of side-effects by vaccine standards being discussed on small websites, the UK 'normal' media have now started covering the problems
1) 'operation warp speed' therapies that never deserved an EUA (an EUA is illegal if treatments exist)
2) from withholding fluvoxamine, Ivermectin et al (which would save the NHS and foreign counterparts £100s of bn per yr).
Funnily, Youtube keeps taking down anything from Drs. Kory, Weinstein, Malone et al. I expect it'll censor the Sunday Times next ...
If you want to spread your ant-vax bullshit, it is traditional to link to a video from Wakefield.
Have managed to find any studies, I see to back up your horse shit about your favourite drugs? Which have substantial side effects, incidentally. Documented by that terrible medical establishment.....
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences
They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger
As an aside, that's one of the arguments against aliens. That is: the US government is attempting to flood social media with a story so big, it's unignorable.
To what end? What would USG gain from this experiment with social media?
It would be a very interesting experiment, I grant
Or are you making a different point? - it's not entirely clear
We really do need to seize back control of social media, ET or no ET
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
Maybe because the medical industry - hardly a profession any more, 90% of it's about $ - has consistently lied and stigmatised people who express reasonable scepticism or ask for broader studies to be done.
After 6 months of the high number of side-effects by vaccine standards being discussed on small websites, the UK 'normal' media have now started covering the problems
1) 'operation warp speed' therapies that never deserved an EUA (an EUA is illegal if treatments exist)
2) from withholding fluvoxamine, Ivermectin et al (which would save the NHS and foreign counterparts £100s of bn per yr).
Funnily, Youtube keeps taking down anything from Drs. Kory, Weinstein, Malone et al. I expect it'll censor the Sunday Times next ...
You are relentless about fecking ivermectin aren’t you. The trial date isn’t there to show what you claim. And do you really think all those healthcare professionals are involved in a conspiracy to suppress this wonder treatment. They hailed dexamethasone which is cheap and gave only marginal benefits. Why would they suppress the wonder drug?
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
Not aure what an "Amazon EC2" is. Does that mean a worker in amazon in the city of London?
(Don't need to look me up, I'm a deluded LibDem in Pembrokeshire!"
So Conway goes after the first fifty of the match.
Hard to see anything other than a draw however unless one side or another suffers a truly spectacular implosion.
Eh? It's day 2!
(I haven't checked the rules, but is there some provision about first innings lead winning in the event of a draw? Which would explain NZ cautious approach to date).
Day 2, with heavy rain forecast for day 3.
Which means at the start of day 4, we will have lost 12 wickets.
I’m backing a draw.
Technically it’s day 3, as Friday was wiped out, and they can use day 6. I guess it could be seen as day 2, but with no extra day...
It would have been fun if they'd made the final a Timeless Test.
Impractical though, given TV schedules.
Would it really be? As a one-off it ought to be viable.
He has absolutely nailed it here. Describes almost every avid Remainer I know (as in know on the internet)
"Here in Britain, Labour is lumped in with a “big blob” of its own. Too often a loud part of that blob sounds like either a select priesthood, speaking to itself about questions that would strike most people as abstract angels-on-a-pinhead theology, or a self-appointed police force dispensing constant, scolding judgment, wagging its finger at the latest supposed infraction of progressive standards. It’s exhausting and so unappealing that even a serially dishonest and incompetent government – but one that seems to accept you, your country and your way of life without pursed-lipped judgment – seems preferable by comparison."
Reading the grauniad comments I am struck by the wide division between those who accept the article has validity and those who absolutely refuse their reality. It rather makes Mr. Freedlands point for him.
There was a similar article in Unherd a couple of days ago, which concluded with a similar point: People will often put up with being ruled by people who cheat them, or lie to them, or who mismanage the country - as recent polls illustrate. But they won't put up with being ruled by people who openly despise them. https://unherd.com/2021/06/the-self-loathing-of-britains-elites/
Yes, I think that does explain the C and A result, people won't vote for those that despise them.
The C&A result is an ancient type of byelection result, with little evidence that it is about being despised and loads of evidence that it's about how to vote at byelections. Massive anti governments swings are common where the circumstances are right, and are usually altered back over time or by the next election. The new trend is the government winning against the opposition. The Tories are in with a chance (less chance than the bookies say) with this yet again.
The collapse of the non big urban (London) blue wall is massively overstated. Look at the map as a whole rather than a few interesting cases.
Freedland is excellent but still manages to take for granted that Labour is the right answer to the progressive cause. Maybe it isn't. Maybe the Tories are the most progressive party around.
If Labour stood where the Tories stand about the aspirational middling sort I would vote for them in GEs as I do in local elections. But nationally they are a crowd of uncommunicating enclaves of special interest groups who patronise people like me.
The Tories aren't progressive. And that isn't what the WWC red wallers want. They actively sought and voted for regressive politics. They're not booing the England team taking the knee because they want progressive politics.
Your comment @RochdalePioneers exemplifies - consciously or unconsciously - why Labour is having problems with WWC Red Wallers. Your assumption that “they actively sought and voted for regressive politics” is the - pardon the pun - Black and White view that is taken by groups such as BLM ie if you are not with us, you are against you. While there are undoubted racists, there are also a lot who sit in the Grey zone - they recognise racism exists and dislike it but don’t like being told they are privileged and / or “deserve” to be discriminated against because of their whiteness, especially as many of them are poor themselves.
I'm not in Labour remember and frankly having spent 15 years in the red wall in a town riddled with social deprivation I get what they have done. I am not sneering at them - their perspective is that "progressive" politics is every other group than them getting attention and money whilst they start with nothing and watch their community stay dirt poor.
This is why there are so many right wing independent groups formed in these kinds of areas. They can't stand Labour, they don't trust the Tories, so time to do it yourself.
I think that is broadly right but it’s not just the every other group getting the goodies, it’s also the feeling that they are being constantly sneered at and pushed aside. That is probably a stronger motivation to turn against Labour.
If you want a small example of this, look at the adverts going on for the Wales-Italy game on TV. There are plenty of adverts - in fact, virtually all - that feature non-white characters and, in the case of brands like Nike and (less so) Adidas pushing an agenda. Try counting the number of WWC characters in them.
Yup - thats what they think and they are of course wrong. We're seeing companies advertising diversity because that is society but until very recently you would never guess looking at adverts.
The idea that WWC men are being discriminated against is laughable. They're white and they're male - thats a major advantage that so many people don't have when being discriminated against by white men.
There absolutely is an issue with education and attainment and mobility for the WWC. Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in WWC areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so. Some of them feel pushed out by forrin labour because they are too lazy to work. Sorry, but someone has to call them out.
It would make an interesting PB poll of an evening:
How many of us know how many anti-vaxxers in our immediate circle?
I'm talking about immediate family members, perhaps as distant as close cousins, and good personal friends (people you can talk freely with over a drink)
I have two anti-vaxxers
One very close friend
And a sibling
Out of a total of about 30?
Anyone else?
My son, and possibly daughter in law are refusing. I do not discuss it with them any more. My son is very intelligent, has a 6 figure salary,and is getting grief from his workmates, but is adamant he will not get the jab, no point discussing as he is as stubborn as me.
It would make an interesting PB poll of an evening:
How many of us know how many anti-vaxxers in our immediate circle?
I'm talking about immediate family members, perhaps as distant as close cousins, and good personal friends (people you can talk freely with over a drink)
I have two anti-vaxxers
One very close friend
And a sibling
Out of a total of about 30?
Anyone else?
Not one. Although quite a few have had reasonably severe reactions equivalent to a bad flu and my mother in law, who was not in the best of health, seemed to decline precipitately within a few days of the jab and had a seizure and, sadly, died. Whether the jab brought it on is not known but most of the family suspect so.
Rural house prices in England and Wales are increasing twice as fast as in cities, triggering a fresh affordability crisis for young people, with hot spots flaring up across the country from Lincolnshire to Lancashire as people seek more space post-pandemic.
It would make an interesting PB poll of an evening:
How many of us know how many anti-vaxxers in our immediate circle?
I'm talking about immediate family members, perhaps as distant as close cousins, and good personal friends (people you can talk freely with over a drink)
I have two anti-vaxxers
One very close friend
And a sibling
Out of a total of about 30?
Anyone else?
None for me. Although I know a few womenfolk who are a bit scared of the vaccines.
On PB itself, I believe the only two antivaxxers are Contrarian and Dura Ace.
Labour has said the government should end the consideration of academic qualifications for civil service jobs apart from where directly related to the post, to end the “snobbery” over degrees.
Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, said degrees and A-levels should only be taken into account where they are a genuine occupational requirement, such as science qualifications.
Rural house prices in England and Wales are increasing twice as fast as in cities, triggering a fresh affordability crisis for young people, with hot spots flaring up across the country from Lincolnshire to Lancashire as people seek more space post-pandemic.
It would make an interesting PB poll of an evening:
How many of us know how many anti-vaxxers in our immediate circle?
I'm talking about immediate family members, perhaps as distant as close cousins, and good personal friends (people you can talk freely with over a drink)
I have two anti-vaxxers
One very close friend
And a sibling
Out of a total of about 30?
Anyone else?
Not one. Although quite a few have had reasonably severe reactions equivalent to a bad flu and my mother in law, who was not in the best of health, seemed to decline precipitately within a few days of the jab and had a seizure and, sadly, died. Whether the jab brought it on is not known but most of the family suspect so.
Sad news about your mother in law. RIP
Interesting that we have so few anti-vaxxer friends and fam so far
I know 4x declared non vaxxers. This is out of a network of possibly 100 social contacts; but I haven't checked that the other 96 or so have definetly had the vaccine.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
Canvassing outside Jamia Masjid in Heckmondwike on Friday, the Labour candidate in the Batley and Spen byelection, Kim Leadbeater, received a hostile reception from voters who are unhappy with the party’s stance on foreign policy issues such as Palestine and Kashmir, amid a perception that the party takes some forms of racism more seriously than others.
The accusation “you’ve taken our votes for granted” was repeatedly levelled at Leadbeater and Lisa Nandy, the shadow foreign secretary and Wigan MP, who joined her on the campaign trail.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences
They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger
Yeah, and its only the start. The potential of deepfakes are limitless.
It’s one reason why sane politicians should be pushing back strongly against attempts to end political careers for things done in people’s earlier lives. Because with deep fake technology and a bit of research, killing off political careers of really quite high profile individuals is going to become child’s play for those with a motivation to do so.
Hell, they’ll probably be able to do it with fakes about what people did last week, but such things will be far easier to disprove if wrong.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
Rural house prices in England and Wales are increasing twice as fast as in cities, triggering a fresh affordability crisis for young people, with hot spots flaring up across the country from Lincolnshire to Lancashire as people seek more space post-pandemic.
All but one of the properties in the estate agent’s window here right now are properties “sold in 2021”, things are going so fast.
Just sold my rural second home for way over the asking price, sold within 2 days, the neighbouring property also sold over asking in 2 days, the buyers said they can stay in the property until the end of the year despite completing, they are now tenants on a peppercorn.
The problem is not that people decide they dont want the vaccine, thats a choice and the libertarian in me wouldnt like compulsion, especially since voluntary uptake is very high
The problem with some refusniks is the why. I know one person who has rejected it and they are into the wider Looney Toon movement, that believes Trump was due to retake power about 3 times since January and so on. The maddening nature of it is its zealotry, a kind of direct inverse to the politicised madness masquerading as science of Independent Sage.
No attempt to elicit sensible consideration is possible.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Alternatively, your commentary is so boring no one can be arsed to respond
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
He has absolutely nailed it here. Describes almost every avid Remainer I know (as in know on the internet)
"Here in Britain, Labour is lumped in with a “big blob” of its own. Too often a loud part of that blob sounds like either a select priesthood, speaking to itself about questions that would strike most people as abstract angels-on-a-pinhead theology, or a self-appointed police force dispensing constant, scolding judgment, wagging its finger at the latest supposed infraction of progressive standards. It’s exhausting and so unappealing that even a serially dishonest and incompetent government – but one that seems to accept you, your country and your way of life without pursed-lipped judgment – seems preferable by comparison."
Reading the grauniad comments I am struck by the wide division between those who accept the article has validity and those who absolutely refuse their reality. It rather makes Mr. Freedlands point for him.
There was a similar article in Unherd a couple of days ago, which concluded with a similar point: People will often put up with being ruled by people who cheat them, or lie to them, or who mismanage the country - as recent polls illustrate. But they won't put up with being ruled by people who openly despise them. https://unherd.com/2021/06/the-self-loathing-of-britains-elites/
Yes, I think that does explain the C and A result, people won't vote for those that despise them.
The C&A result is an ancient type of byelection result, with little evidence that it is about being despised and loads of evidence that it's about how to vote at byelections. Massive anti governments swings are common where the circumstances are right, and are usually altered back over time or by the next election. The new trend is the government winning against the opposition. The Tories are in with a chance (less chance than the bookies say) with this yet again.
The collapse of the non big urban (London) blue wall is massively overstated. Look at the map as a whole rather than a few interesting cases.
Freedland is excellent but still manages to take for granted that Labour is the right answer to the progressive cause. Maybe it isn't. Maybe the Tories are the most progressive party around.
If Labour stood where the Tories stand about the aspirational middling sort I would vote for them in GEs as I do in local elections. But nationally they are a crowd of uncommunicating enclaves of special interest groups who patronise people like me.
The Tories aren't progressive. And that isn't what the WWC red wallers want. They actively sought and voted for regressive politics. They're not booing the England team taking the knee because they want progressive politics.
Your comment @RochdalePioneers exemplifies - consciously or unconsciously - why Labour is having problems with WWC Red Wallers. Your assumption that “they actively sought and voted for regressive politics” is the - pardon the pun - Black and White view that is taken by groups such as BLM ie if you are not with us, you are against you. While there are undoubted racists, there are also a lot who sit in the Grey zone - they recognise racism exists and dislike it but don’t like being told they are privileged and / or “deserve” to be discriminated against because of their whiteness, especially as many of them are poor themselves.
I'm not in Labour remember and frankly having spent 15 years in the red wall in a town riddled with social deprivation I get what they have done. I am not sneering at them - their perspective is that "progressive" politics is every other group than them getting attention and money whilst they start with nothing and watch their community stay dirt poor.
This is why there are so many right wing independent groups formed in these kinds of areas. They can't stand Labour, they don't trust the Tories, so time to do it yourself.
I think that is broadly right but it’s not just the every other group getting the goodies, it’s also the feeling that they are being constantly sneered at and pushed aside. That is probably a stronger motivation to turn against Labour.
If you want a small example of this, look at the adverts going on for the Wales-Italy game on TV. There are plenty of adverts - in fact, virtually all - that feature non-white characters and, in the case of brands like Nike and (less so) Adidas pushing an agenda. Try counting the number of WWC characters in them.
Yup - thats what they think and they are of course wrong. We're seeing companies advertising diversity because that is society but until very recently you would never guess looking at adverts.
The idea that WWC men are being discriminated against is laughable. They're white and they're male - thats a major advantage that so many people don't have when being discriminated against by white men.
There absolutely is an issue with education and attainment and mobility for the WWC. Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in WWC areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so. Some of them feel pushed out by forrin labour because they are too lazy to work. Sorry, but someone has to call them out.
If you do a search-and-replace in your comments for "WWC" with "Black, West Indian", you get a standard saloon bar rant.....
Black, West Indian are general right next to WWC (either above or below) in the poor attainment/achievement stats.
Polls have closed in the Armenia election and don't forget Bulgaria has its second GE this year in three weeks.
The final Armenian poll gave the opposition Armenia Alliance a slight lead over the My Step Alliance headed by Prime Minister Pashinyan's Civil Contract Party.
The Prime Minister is in big trouble following the conflict with Azerbaijan which ended badly for Armenia with the country having to relinquish most of the territory gained from Azerbaijan in the 1994 conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh.
He has absolutely nailed it here. Describes almost every avid Remainer I know (as in know on the internet)
"Here in Britain, Labour is lumped in with a “big blob” of its own. Too often a loud part of that blob sounds like either a select priesthood, speaking to itself about questions that would strike most people as abstract angels-on-a-pinhead theology, or a self-appointed police force dispensing constant, scolding judgment, wagging its finger at the latest supposed infraction of progressive standards. It’s exhausting and so unappealing that even a serially dishonest and incompetent government – but one that seems to accept you, your country and your way of life without pursed-lipped judgment – seems preferable by comparison."
Reading the grauniad comments I am struck by the wide division between those who accept the article has validity and those who absolutely refuse their reality. It rather makes Mr. Freedlands point for him.
There was a similar article in Unherd a couple of days ago, which concluded with a similar point: People will often put up with being ruled by people who cheat them, or lie to them, or who mismanage the country - as recent polls illustrate. But they won't put up with being ruled by people who openly despise them. https://unherd.com/2021/06/the-self-loathing-of-britains-elites/
Yes, I think that does explain the C and A result, people won't vote for those that despise them.
The C&A result is an ancient type of byelection result, with little evidence that it is about being despised and loads of evidence that it's about how to vote at byelections. Massive anti governments swings are common where the circumstances are right, and are usually altered back over time or by the next election. The new trend is the government winning against the opposition. The Tories are in with a chance (less chance than the bookies say) with this yet again.
The collapse of the non big urban (London) blue wall is massively overstated. Look at the map as a whole rather than a few interesting cases.
Freedland is excellent but still manages to take for granted that Labour is the right answer to the progressive cause. Maybe it isn't. Maybe the Tories are the most progressive party around.
If Labour stood where the Tories stand about the aspirational middling sort I would vote for them in GEs as I do in local elections. But nationally they are a crowd of uncommunicating enclaves of special interest groups who patronise people like me.
The Tories aren't progressive. And that isn't what the WWC red wallers want. They actively sought and voted for regressive politics. They're not booing the England team taking the knee because they want progressive politics.
Your comment @RochdalePioneers exemplifies - consciously or unconsciously - why Labour is having problems with WWC Red Wallers. Your assumption that “they actively sought and voted for regressive politics” is the - pardon the pun - Black and White view that is taken by groups such as BLM ie if you are not with us, you are against you. While there are undoubted racists, there are also a lot who sit in the Grey zone - they recognise racism exists and dislike it but don’t like being told they are privileged and / or “deserve” to be discriminated against because of their whiteness, especially as many of them are poor themselves.
I'm not in Labour remember and frankly having spent 15 years in the red wall in a town riddled with social deprivation I get what they have done. I am not sneering at them - their perspective is that "progressive" politics is every other group than them getting attention and money whilst they start with nothing and watch their community stay dirt poor.
This is why there are so many right wing independent groups formed in these kinds of areas. They can't stand Labour, they don't trust the Tories, so time to do it yourself.
I think that is broadly right but it’s not just the every other group getting the goodies, it’s also the feeling that they are being constantly sneered at and pushed aside. That is probably a stronger motivation to turn against Labour.
If you want a small example of this, look at the adverts going on for the Wales-Italy game on TV. There are plenty of adverts - in fact, virtually all - that feature non-white characters and, in the case of brands like Nike and (less so) Adidas pushing an agenda. Try counting the number of WWC characters in them.
Yup - thats what they think and they are of course wrong. We're seeing companies advertising diversity because that is society but until very recently you would never guess looking at adverts.
The idea that WWC men are being discriminated against is laughable. They're white and they're male - thats a major advantage that so many people don't have when being discriminated against by white men.
There absolutely is an issue with education and attainment and mobility for the WWC. Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in WWC areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so. Some of them feel pushed out by forrin labour because they are too lazy to work. Sorry, but someone has to call them out.
Let me change that slightly and see how it makes you feel.
'Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in majority black or Bangladeshi areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so.'
Does that apply or is it verboten because minorities are involved?
Labour has said the government should end the consideration of academic qualifications for civil service jobs apart from where directly related to the post, to end the “snobbery” over degrees.
Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, said degrees and A-levels should only be taken into account where they are a genuine occupational requirement, such as science qualifications.
I've come to the conclusion that having a non-vocational degree is already a waste of time and money, it costs a fortune and mostly involves indoctrination in to political ideology - with declining employment opportunities at the end of it.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Alternatively, your commentary is so boring no one can be arsed to respond
I appreciate that in particular for you it is difficult to read.
Hence your pivot to insult.
You are a bloody amusing and accomplished writer but as transparent as a pane of glass.
It is interesting after 15 months of this pandemic we still aren't totally sure about transmission vectors.
It's fucking infuriating.
Foolishly I would have thought this would have been pretty high up the research list after vaccine but apparently no scientist cares how it spreads.
See multiple posts above (below). We do know, its just that Regulations etc are never changed or walked back because ‘too confusing’.
No, we know it's primarily airborne but we lack so much more info.
Why are meat packing plants super spreader central? Sure, you can say a bunch of plausible stuff as to why but there's nothing definitive published as far as I'm aware.
There is a gaping void in the literature.
Ummm.
Have you ever been in a meat processing plant?
It's a place with lots of people working closely together in a space and where there is a requirement to shout to your next door neighbour.
Long before CV19, there was a massive amount of research about how people who work in those environments are more likely to catch respirotory illnesses. See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5355534/ for example.
Yes, could we now generalise this into how we could setup indoor spaces to avoid spreading Covid. And could we get a time machine and do this 18 months ago.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
Peer or family pressure seems to be a regular story.
https://twitter.com/WesElyMD/status/1406375096462233600 My #COVID ICU pts & #LongCOVID survivors tell me they wanted to get #Vaccinated but had immense REVERSE PEER-Pressure from family & friends NOT to get the shot Face with look of triumph. All but 1 of them has ended their share w a mumbled, “I should have listened to myself and taken the safe way!”
I'm not aware of any anti-vaxxers in my social groups.
They would be easier to identify if they wore some kind of badge. Or marking. A star perhaps.
No. A little bell would be so much better. As already helpfully discussed as regards cyclists and joggers.
Early in lockdown on a cycle I approached a couple walking in the same direction. How to notify them I was coming up? I know, I thought, nothing too sudden. So I coughed loudly.
Big mistake. They must have thought I was plague-ridden and just about flung themselves into the hedgerow.
Labour has said the government should end the consideration of academic qualifications for civil service jobs apart from where directly related to the post, to end the “snobbery” over degrees.
Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, said degrees and A-levels should only be taken into account where they are a genuine occupational requirement, such as science qualifications.
So twenty years of pushing degrees as an end in themselves (notionally to develop an educated workforce well placed for the workforce of the future) with costs increasingly passed on to students who pursue them (starting right from the initial £1,000 fees back in 1998) on the basis of the “lifetime graduate premium”, and now all to be treated equally because it’s all “snobbery”!
Rural house prices in England and Wales are increasing twice as fast as in cities, triggering a fresh affordability crisis for young people, with hot spots flaring up across the country from Lincolnshire to Lancashire as people seek more space post-pandemic.
All but one of the properties in the estate agent’s window here right now are properties “sold in 2021”, things are going so fast.
My parents are moving up to be near their sons and grand-kids. Chasing down a house for them has been hard work - decent properties here in rural Aberdeenshire sell in a few days.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination
I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.
"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."
The problem is not that people decide they dont want the vaccine, thats a choice and the libertarian in me wouldnt like compulsion, especially since voluntary uptake is very high
The problem with some refusniks is the why. I know one person who has rejected it and they are into the wider Looney Toon movement, that believes Trump was due to retake power about 3 times since January and so on. The maddening nature of it is its zealotry, a kind of direct inverse to the politicised madness masquerading as science of Independent Sage.
No attempt to elicit sensible consideration is possible.
Which was the point I was making. There are sane (albeit some would argue essentially selfish, and probably scientifically illiterate) reasons for being against getting vaccinated. But there are plenty of totally batshit insane reasons for being an anti-vaxxer. Probably the balance skews towards the former in this country (I hope), but almost certainly not in America where up to a quarter of the population appear to essentially now be in a self perpetuating cult.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination
I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.
"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."
Because the whole world didn't drop everything and prioritise Ebola.
Let me change that slightly and see how it makes you feel.
'Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in majority black or Bangladeshi areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so.'
Does that apply or is it verboten because minorities are involved?
It doesn't apply because it isn't true. As I said, ethnicity isn't the issue. Not giving a fuck is the issue. We aren't talking about people in areas where work is scarce or miles away. We're talking about decent jobs that certain parts of the WWC won't do and then get arsey when other people are brought in to fill the roles.
The turnaround in politics is that this demographic has swung massively Tory. The days of Tory cabinet ministers giving conference speeches slagging off single mothers or multi-generational unemployment in areas where they smashed industry are long past.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination
I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.
"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."
They didn’t exactly have an enormous pool of people in which to test and measure the effectiveness of Ebola vaccines. And you’re hardly going to get volunteers willing to be infected with “mild” forms of the virus to speed it up further.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination
I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.
"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."
Because the whole world didn't drop everything and prioritise Ebola.
Labour has said the government should end the consideration of academic qualifications for civil service jobs apart from where directly related to the post, to end the “snobbery” over degrees.
Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, said degrees and A-levels should only be taken into account where they are a genuine occupational requirement, such as science qualifications.
I've come to the conclusion that having a non-vocational degree is already a waste of time and money, it costs a fortune and mostly involves indoctrination in to political ideology - with declining employment opportunities at the end of it.
It depends on what you get and where.
A 2.1 or 1st from a Russell Group university (or foreign equivalent) is seen as showing* that the candidate is bright and capable of learning. Hence the requirement for such degrees in high end jobs.
A degree from a lesser** institution will get you a job that 20 years ago would have gone to a bright school leaver. This is probably what Angela Rayner is talking about.
The simple truth is that the credentialism boom has shut off access to better jobs for many - no more literal barrow boys in the City.
*I don't agree with this entirely, but that is how things are. **That's how it's seen
I respect people's right not to get vaccinated, but equally such people should also not expect society to do anything whatsoever to stop the spread of Covid. Fully packed nightclubs and gigs with thousands of people in enclosed spaces included, with no testing before or after.
I quizzed my family and my mum had one friend who refused who was in her early 70s, seemingly because she is into alternative medicine nonsense. I'm not sure all anti-vaxers realise the risk they are exposing themselves to when we let things loose.
The problem is not that people decide they dont want the vaccine, thats a choice and the libertarian in me wouldnt like compulsion, especially since voluntary uptake is very high
The problem with some refusniks is the why. I know one person who has rejected it and they are into the wider Looney Toon movement, that believes Trump was due to retake power about 3 times since January and so on. The maddening nature of it is its zealotry, a kind of direct inverse to the politicised madness masquerading as science of Independent Sage.
No attempt to elicit sensible consideration is possible.
Which was the point I was making. There are sane (albeit some would argue essentially selfish, and probably scientifically illiterate) reasons for being against getting vaccinated. But there are plenty of totally batshit insane reasons for being an anti-vaxxer. Probably the balance skews towards the former in this country (I hope), but almost certainly not in America where up to a quarter of the population appear to essentially now be in a self perpetuating cult.
Of course but so what? You can't pick and choose people's motivation. That way George Orwell lies.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination
I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.
"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."
Because the whole world didn't drop everything and prioritise Ebola.
Exactly. We rushed it.
No, we didn't. We put in what was needed to get it done.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination
I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.
"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."
They didn’t exactly have an enormous pool of people in which to test and measure the effectiveness of Ebola vaccines. And you’re hardly going to get volunteers willing to be infected with “mild” forms of the virus to speed it up further.
Yes I'm sure. At least you're now accepting that the vaccine was new and they did most of the trials in the real world with us lot.
I respect people's right not to get vaccinated, but equally such people should also not expect society to do anything whatsoever to stop the spread of Covid. Fully packed nightclubs and gigs with thousands of people in enclosed spaces included, with no testing before or after.
I quizzed my family and my mum had one friend who refused who was in her early 70s, seemingly because she is into alternative medicine nonsense. I'm not sure all anti-vaxers realise the risk they are exposing themselves to when we let things loose.
The more people refuse the vaccine the longer we have restrictions and masks and "test first before entry".
He has absolutely nailed it here. Describes almost every avid Remainer I know (as in know on the internet)
"Here in Britain, Labour is lumped in with a “big blob” of its own. Too often a loud part of that blob sounds like either a select priesthood, speaking to itself about questions that would strike most people as abstract angels-on-a-pinhead theology, or a self-appointed police force dispensing constant, scolding judgment, wagging its finger at the latest supposed infraction of progressive standards. It’s exhausting and so unappealing that even a serially dishonest and incompetent government – but one that seems to accept you, your country and your way of life without pursed-lipped judgment – seems preferable by comparison."
Reading the grauniad comments I am struck by the wide division between those who accept the article has validity and those who absolutely refuse their reality. It rather makes Mr. Freedlands point for him.
There was a similar article in Unherd a couple of days ago, which concluded with a similar point: People will often put up with being ruled by people who cheat them, or lie to them, or who mismanage the country - as recent polls illustrate. But they won't put up with being ruled by people who openly despise them. https://unherd.com/2021/06/the-self-loathing-of-britains-elites/
Yes, I think that does explain the C and A result, people won't vote for those that despise them.
The C&A result is an ancient type of byelection result, with little evidence that it is about being despised and loads of evidence that it's about how to vote at byelections. Massive anti governments swings are common where the circumstances are right, and are usually altered back over time or by the next election. The new trend is the government winning against the opposition. The Tories are in with a chance (less chance than the bookies say) with this yet again.
The collapse of the non big urban (London) blue wall is massively overstated. Look at the map as a whole rather than a few interesting cases.
Freedland is excellent but still manages to take for granted that Labour is the right answer to the progressive cause. Maybe it isn't. Maybe the Tories are the most progressive party around.
If Labour stood where the Tories stand about the aspirational middling sort I would vote for them in GEs as I do in local elections. But nationally they are a crowd of uncommunicating enclaves of special interest groups who patronise people like me.
The Tories aren't progressive. And that isn't what the WWC red wallers want. They actively sought and voted for regressive politics. They're not booing the England team taking the knee because they want progressive politics.
Nice try, but you may be making some assumptions about what progress is about that aren't shared by the middling sort. Some people think virtue signalling is never progressive, but helping and supporting people is.
So what help and support for the victims of racism do the boo-ers engage in?
If you believe blm is divisive and does more to promote racial disharmony than the problems it purports to fix then showing your contempt for it is the positive thing to do.
Before you whine on about taking the knee isn't connected to blm remember people like you claim the england flag is associated with racism because people like the bnp use it. BLM use taking the knee...it is therefore tainted by those arses
I don't think the English flag racist and often fly it during tournaments. I just respect the English players too in their statements about racist abuse.
I would be grateful if you would not misrepresent my views on these things. It doesn't help discussion when you attribute to me beliefs that I do not hold.
A friend of mine has just texted me to say he's been on the phone with his middle aged, eccentric, arty but generally sane sister who spent half an hour "shouting and crying and demanding he refuse the vaccine"
A week ago a friend told me her brother in law (husband's brother) spent the entirety of a supper party in wrenching sobs because "my whole family is going to die from the jabs"
Where the fuck does this stuff come from, and why is it so tenacious?!
A significant chunk of the anti-vax stuff comes from Russian troll farms.
What do the Russian trolls stand to gain from this?
Half a million Russians are dead due to this pandemic. Why is a pandemic spreading and vaccines being refused good for Russia? Are they seeking to wipe out the elderly on purpose?
So, do you remember a few days ago there was a new PB user who came on to spread a story about how BA pilots were all dying of the vaccine?
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee (2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
At the peak of the BLM hysteria you could SEE the Russian and Chinese bots at work: new accounts with zero or near zero followers, throwing in the most hysterical arguments - from both sides - inflammatory "facts" and "opinions" which would then get taken up by legitimate users and often turned into massive rows with real-life consequences
They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger
However it only succeeds where gullible people exist to believe it and then spread it. Useful idiots I think is the correct term.
Just seen that comment from SAGE / publish health England about more lockdowns in the winter …They are absolutely having a laugh if they think people will accept more lockdowns
If the NHS cannot cope without lockdowns becoming the norm, then it is not fit for purpose .
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination
I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.
"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."
Because the whole world didn't drop everything and prioritise Ebola.
Exactly. We rushed it.
No, we didn't. We put in what was needed to get it done.
Absolutely. The process was rushed because it was important to us. Vs the usual vaccine development timeframe.
The problem is not that people decide they dont want the vaccine, thats a choice and the libertarian in me wouldnt like compulsion, especially since voluntary uptake is very high
The problem with some refusniks is the why. I know one person who has rejected it and they are into the wider Looney Toon movement, that believes Trump was due to retake power about 3 times since January and so on. The maddening nature of it is its zealotry, a kind of direct inverse to the politicised madness masquerading as science of Independent Sage.
No attempt to elicit sensible consideration is possible.
Which was the point I was making. There are sane (albeit some would argue essentially selfish, and probably scientifically illiterate) reasons for being against getting vaccinated. But there are plenty of totally batshit insane reasons for being an anti-vaxxer. Probably the balance skews towards the former in this country (I hope), but almost certainly not in America where up to a quarter of the population appear to essentially now be in a self perpetuating cult.
Of course but so what? You can't pick and choose people's motivation. That way George Orwell lies.
No, but I am in my rights to believe that their views are insane. And not to be reasoned with if they persist in the face of any attempt to bring them back into the rational universe.
And bear in mind that, whilst they don’t understand it, these people are being manipulated by forces at least as powerful and far more malign than those of which they claim to be resisting.
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination
I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.
"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."
They didn’t exactly have an enormous pool of people in which to test and measure the effectiveness of Ebola vaccines. And you’re hardly going to get volunteers willing to be infected with “mild” forms of the virus to speed it up further.
Yes I'm sure. At least you're now accepting that the vaccine was new and they did most of the trials in the real world with us lot.
The vaccine had the same trials that a vaccine would normally have.
The problem is not that people decide they dont want the vaccine, thats a choice and the libertarian in me wouldnt like compulsion, especially since voluntary uptake is very high
The problem with some refusniks is the why. I know one person who has rejected it and they are into the wider Looney Toon movement, that believes Trump was due to retake power about 3 times since January and so on. The maddening nature of it is its zealotry, a kind of direct inverse to the politicised madness masquerading as science of Independent Sage.
No attempt to elicit sensible consideration is possible.
Which was the point I was making. There are sane (albeit some would argue essentially selfish, and probably scientifically illiterate) reasons for being against getting vaccinated. But there are plenty of totally batshit insane reasons for being an anti-vaxxer. Probably the balance skews towards the former in this country (I hope), but almost certainly not in America where up to a quarter of the population appear to essentially now be in a self perpetuating cult.
Of course but so what? You can't pick and choose people's motivation. That way George Orwell lies.
Yes, you can pick and choose motivations. Pop into your local magistrates court to see that on a daily basis. "Intent" and all that.
Let me change that slightly and see how it makes you feel.
'Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in majority black or Bangladeshi areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so.'
Does that apply or is it verboten because minorities are involved?
It doesn't apply because it isn't true. As I said, ethnicity isn't the issue. Not giving a fuck is the issue. We aren't talking about people in areas where work is scarce or miles away. We're talking about decent jobs that certain parts of the WWC won't do and then get arsey when other people are brought in to fill the roles.
The turnaround in politics is that this demographic has swung massively Tory. The days of Tory cabinet ministers giving conference speeches slagging off single mothers or multi-generational unemployment in areas where they smashed industry are long past.
We are talking about people for whom work doesn't make sense because they would be making about 50 pence an hour compared to what they get being unemployed. Pay rates rising in these jobs will fix that. I doubt there are many jobs you would do for an extra 40 hours a week if it made you maybe 20£ extra a week either
Okay team I think you've got my point. This vaccine was rushed. Everyone saying oh it wasn't vaccines have been around for ages it's just that the approval process was truncated or it was just emergency authorisation or ..
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Your opinion is that it was rushed, but while it has been done swiftly, precisely zero corners have been cut with regard to safety. What has not been done, in your opinion? How long ‘should’ it take?
No idea.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
Except in pandemics. They did much the same during the East African ebola outbreak, they can now control it with ring vaccination
I googled timeline of Ebola vaccine.
"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."
Because the whole world didn't drop everything and prioritise Ebola.
Exactly. We rushed it.
Which steps were abbreviated or missed out, in the process of producing the COVID vaccines? Put up or....
Comments
My mates and family couldn't wait to get their hands on it and get this bastard over with.
Genuine question. You do bang on about it, quite a lot
As for my question I'm just trying to work out the percentage of anti-vaxxers in different communities, by using PB
My family are middle class white British, my friends are the same, with a few Europeans, Chinese, Americans. All educated, to a fairly high degree
2 out of 30 (30 is a very rough guess, but hey) gives an anti-vax percentage, population-wide of 5-10%, which seems reasonable
Well as site moderator, I get to see IP addresses. When I stuck in the IP address of that poster it was kicked out as an Amazon EC2 instance. I see two possibilities:
(1) That he was an Amazon employee
(2) That it was someone attempting to hide their real IP
I find it curious that someone pushing a story that is clearly utter bullshit, and designed to increase vaccine hesitancy, chose to hide their real IP.
Now, it could be the North Koreans or the Chinese. But so far, the biggest players in the "disrupt Western democracy" space are the Russians.
There's a lot of decent academic evidence looking at Bot Farms and their attempts to amplify certain messages. Some amplify antivax. Some amplify BLM propaganda. Some amplify Proud Boys stuff.
The goal is a simple one, to sow discord in Western democracies. And how does China or Russia benefit? Well, because we're all fighting among ourselves, we don't do a great job of standing up to their aggressions elsewhere.
It's no coincindence that China and Russia basically ban Twitter and the like. They want to make sure that they control social media platforms, so people can't do the same to them.
People aren't stupid for not taking the vaccine: if they think they are at low risk of the virus, happy to risk it, and are worried about unknown side effects then they should be able to refuse it. It may become an issue for them if they are working in settings with highly vulnerable people or travelling abroad but that is their problem.
Compelling people to take the vaccine is a terrible policy as is the continuation of lockdown, the two feed off each other, people have become vaccine totalitarians because they want to end lockdown, a better answer is to just give people back their freedom on all fronts.
Credit to the Wales defence, and to LCFCs Ward in goal in particular.
For the rest - phases of the trials - they have followed the protocols as I understand them, albeit with an urgency and with red tape removed. That does not make it 'rushed' in the sense of 'diminished quality'.
Every unvaxxed person is a potential reservoir of a mutant which might then threaten us all. Again
They have weaponised social media against us. It's a serious danger
A people scared. The UK scared, as evidenced by the vitriol poured on anti vaxxers here on PB.
Why are meat packing plants super spreader central? Sure, you can say a bunch of plausible stuff as to why but there's nothing definitive published as far as I'm aware.
There is a gaping void in the literature.
Many new drugs are created very rapidly - the lengthy process of approval and manufacturing setup is not a requirement, but a traditional process, with lots of scope for speeding up.
Before you whine on about taking the knee isn't connected to blm remember people like you claim the england flag is associated with racism because people like the bnp use it. BLM use taking the knee...it is therefore tainted by those arses
ie this one was rushed vs normal.
Look it's fine thank god they rushed it imo. But it was rushed.
After 6 months of the high number of side-effects by vaccine standards being discussed on small websites, the UK 'normal' media have now started covering the problems
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/4-000-women-report-period-problems-after-jab-3sdgwgx8v
About time. How many have died from ...
1) 'operation warp speed' therapies that never deserved an EUA (an EUA is illegal if treatments exist)
2) from withholding fluvoxamine, Ivermectin et al (which would save the NHS and foreign counterparts £100s of bn per yr).
Funnily, Youtube keeps taking down anything from Drs. Kory, Weinstein, Malone et al. I expect it'll censor the Sunday Times next ...
If you want a small example of this, look at the adverts going on for the Wales-Italy game on TV. There are plenty of adverts - in fact, virtually all - that feature non-white characters and, in the case of brands like Nike and (less so) Adidas pushing an agenda. Try counting the number of WWC characters in them.
https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2021/06/threat-labour-defeat-batley-and-spen-shows-party-facing-perfect-storm
Have you ever been in a meat processing plant?
It's a place with lots of people working closely together in a space and where there is a requirement to shout to your next door neighbour.
Long before CV19, there was a massive amount of research about how people who work in those environments are more likely to catch respirotory illnesses. See https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5355534/ for example.
Have managed to find any studies, I see to back up your horse shit about your favourite drugs? Which have substantial side effects, incidentally. Documented by that terrible medical establishment.....
It would be a very interesting experiment, I grant
Or are you making a different point? - it's not entirely clear
We really do need to seize back control of social media, ET or no ET
(Don't need to look me up, I'm a deluded LibDem in Pembrokeshire!"
The idea that WWC men are being discriminated against is laughable. They're white and they're male - thats a major advantage that so many people don't have when being discriminated against by white men.
There absolutely is an issue with education and attainment and mobility for the WWC. Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in WWC areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so. Some of them feel pushed out by forrin labour because they are too lazy to work. Sorry, but someone has to call them out.
My son is very intelligent, has a 6 figure salary,and is getting grief from his workmates, but is adamant he will not get the jab, no point discussing as he is as stubborn as me.
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/jun/20/rural-house-prices-in-england-and-wales-rise-twice-as-fast-as-in-cities
On PB itself, I believe the only two antivaxxers are Contrarian and Dura Ace.
Labour’s deputy leader, Angela Rayner, said degrees and A-levels should only be taken into account where they are a genuine occupational requirement, such as science qualifications.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/20/end-snobbery-over-degrees-in-civil-service-recruitment-says-labour
Levelling down....
Galloway on RT.
https://twitter.com/RTUKnews/status/1406672176288256008
Interesting that we have so few anti-vaxxer friends and fam so far
The people who developed and authorised it have been proudly proclaiming how quick the process has been.
But whatever...it's a small step from there to say, as plenty are on here right now, that it should be compulsory.
And still you don't get it.
Canvassing outside Jamia Masjid in Heckmondwike on Friday, the Labour candidate in the Batley and Spen byelection, Kim Leadbeater, received a hostile reception from voters who are unhappy with the party’s stance on foreign policy issues such as Palestine and Kashmir, amid a perception that the party takes some forms of racism more seriously than others.
The accusation “you’ve taken our votes for granted” was repeatedly levelled at Leadbeater and Lisa Nandy, the shadow foreign secretary and Wigan MP, who joined her on the campaign trail.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/20/muslims-keir-starmer-leaves-batley-voters-disaffected-labour
Hell, they’ll probably be able to do it with fakes about what people did last week, but such things will be far easier to disprove if wrong.
The problem with some refusniks is the why. I know one person who has rejected it and they are into the wider Looney Toon movement, that believes Trump was due to retake power about 3 times since January and so on. The maddening nature of it is its zealotry, a kind of direct inverse to the politicised madness masquerading as science of Independent Sage.
No attempt to elicit sensible consideration is possible.
I just googled vaccine trial length and the first result has this to start:
"Vaccine development is a long, complex process, often lasting 10-15 years and involving a combination of public and private involvement."
https://www.historyofvaccines.org/content/articles/vaccine-development-testing-and-regulation
Black, West Indian are general right next to WWC (either above or below) in the poor attainment/achievement stats.
Polls have closed in the Armenia election and don't forget Bulgaria has its second GE this year in three weeks.
The final Armenian poll gave the opposition Armenia Alliance a slight lead over the My Step Alliance headed by Prime Minister Pashinyan's Civil Contract Party.
The Prime Minister is in big trouble following the conflict with Azerbaijan which ended badly for Armenia with the country having to relinquish most of the territory gained from Azerbaijan in the 1994 conflict over Nagorno-Karabakh.
'Sorry but much of this is self-inflicted. Talk to people who work in primary schools in majority black or Bangladeshi areas at the absolute pond scum that kids have as parents. Some of them are thick and poor because they make themselves so.'
Does that apply or is it verboten because minorities are involved?
I've come to the conclusion that having a non-vocational degree is already a waste of time and money, it costs a fortune and mostly involves indoctrination in to political ideology - with declining employment opportunities at the end of it.
Hence your pivot to insult.
You are a bloody amusing and accomplished writer but as transparent as a pane of glass.
https://twitter.com/WesElyMD/status/1406375096462233600
My #COVID ICU pts & #LongCOVID survivors tell me they wanted to get #Vaccinated but had immense REVERSE PEER-Pressure from family & friends NOT to get the shot Face with look of triumph. All but 1 of them has ended their share w a mumbled, “I should have listened to myself and taken the safe way!”
Big mistake. They must have thought I was plague-ridden and just about flung themselves into the hedgerow.
"The period of 5 years from the start of Phase 1 trials in Oct 2014 to the approval of this vaccine in Nov 2019, was much faster than the typical 10–15 year timeline for vaccine development and approval4. A timeline of the key activities in the development of this Ebola vaccine is summarized in Fig."
The turnaround in politics is that this demographic has swung massively Tory. The days of Tory cabinet ministers giving conference speeches slagging off single mothers or multi-generational unemployment in areas where they smashed industry are long past.
A 2.1 or 1st from a Russell Group university (or foreign equivalent) is seen as showing* that the candidate is bright and capable of learning. Hence the requirement for such degrees in high end jobs.
A degree from a lesser** institution will get you a job that 20 years ago would have gone to a bright school leaver. This is probably what Angela Rayner is talking about.
The simple truth is that the credentialism boom has shut off access to better jobs for many - no more literal barrow boys in the City.
*I don't agree with this entirely, but that is how things are.
**That's how it's seen
I quizzed my family and my mum had one friend who refused who was in her early 70s, seemingly because she is into alternative medicine nonsense. I'm not sure all anti-vaxers realise the risk they are exposing themselves to when we let things loose.
I would be grateful if you would not misrepresent my views on these things. It doesn't help discussion when you attribute to me beliefs that I do not hold.
If the NHS cannot cope without lockdowns becoming the norm, then it is not fit for purpose .
And bear in mind that, whilst they don’t understand it, these people are being manipulated by forces at least as powerful and far more malign than those of which they claim to be resisting.