politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How the Evening Standard is reporting the July 2014 Ipsos-M
Comments
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Sorry, my previous response was slightly mistaken. I have done a bit of reading, and it looks as if there is no need to prove a dishonest intention in fare evasion cases. It seems the courts have held that certain acts show an intent not to pay the fare, which on the face of it, seem somewhat questionable. The case law seems heavily weighted in favour of the railway companies and against the liberty of the subject.OldKingCole said:I gather, and I don't recall the exact details, that the fact that the correspondent travelled was held to be intent.
There's a long-running series of discussions in the Guardian over problems with ticketing. The failure to prosecute the Sussex(?) banker was inflammatory, although most of the complaints seem to come from Yorkshire.0 -
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
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Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
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What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.0 -
Nothing special or amazing about NHS treatment - it's healthcare like they have in other countries - many of which have superior to ours.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.0 -
That's what you get when you offer mediocre healthcare for all, fee at the point of use, and tax the crap out of everyone to maintain mediocrity. Of course as time goes on, you stop offering cradle to grave, farm out bits of it to private practice and continue to tax as if it were universal. The main thing is maintaining mediocrity and convincing everyone it's a sacred cow.TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate0 -
Fair enough. Just the usual Tory instinctive reaction against the NHS then.TGOHF said:
Nothing special or amazing about NHS treatment - it's healthcare like they have in other countries - many of which have superior to ours.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.
Bet you loved the Olympics opening ceremony.0 -
Yes, seems strange, doesn't it. Probably needs someone to really get worked up and to be able to afford a proper defence.Life_ina_market_town said:
Sorry, my previous response was slightly mistaken. I have done a bit of reading, and it looks as if there is no need to prove a dishonest intention in fare evasion cases. It seems the courts have held that certain acts show an intent not to pay the fare, which on the face of it, seem somewhat questionable. The case law seems heavily weighted in favour of the railway companies and against the liberty of the subject.OldKingCole said:I gather, and I don't recall the exact details, that the fact that the correspondent travelled was held to be intent.
There's a long-running series of discussions in the Guardian over problems with ticketing. The failure to prosecute the Sussex(?) banker was inflammatory, although most of the complaints seem to come from Yorkshire.0 -
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Ah the Labour economic genius on display yet again... Next up a Spurs clean sheet tax.TheScreamingEagles said:
Tax for every time Bobby Sol scores a goalScrapheap_as_was said:What type of tax does Harriet want me to pay more of?
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We all pay our taxes and the NHS provides a service for that. It's not free. I have no issues with the NHS, and am thankful for it, but to pretend like many on the left that the NHS is the best health service in the world is wrong TGHOF just proved to you that the midwifery is ranked 25th globally and you just came back with irrelevance and stupid comment. The NHS provides a good service and for decent value. Beyond that it is difficult to say it is great.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.0 -
You really are challenged, aren't you? A fitting addition to the PB Kinnockry. Welcome.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.
You suggested that the UK has uniquely low infant mortality. You were corrected. The end.
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Yes, absolutely. 6 months is a serious sentence.Charles said:
So someone gets locked up for 6months at 16 for getting involved in a bar fight. Then spends 12 years as an upstanding member of society. Can't join the police force at 29.isam said:
Someone convicted of a criminal offence. Anyone who committed a crime which carried a custodial sentence should be disallowed from being a policemanCharles said:
What is a "known criminal"?isam said:
If you are saying that someone who has ever committed a crime cannot be a policeman - which is what I am thinking you are - then there is no scope for redemption.
For me it's obvious: look at it on a case by case basis and make a decision based on the crime, how long ago it was, and the nature (e.g. anything involving integrity should be a automatic strike)
If in doubt, no thanks. Get another job, simple as that. It's not a big deal
"It was always my dream to be a policeman, but they wouldn't have me just because I used to be a crackhead/bashed up my girlfriend"
Ahhhhh
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I have no idea. It's just one of many reasons healthcare needs a serious rethink if we want to have the best health service in the world (and why wouldn't we!).Smarmeron said:@dyedwoolie
Do those statistics take into account the age and lifestyles of the mothers?
It's a bit like Brown having to order a 'deep clean' of hospitals. What does that tell you? All that money and our hospitals aren't even kept in an acceptable state of bacterial cleanliness.
Or the disconnect between universal healthcare and availability of the right drugs.
Or the privatisation of eyesight and dental care.
It's a crock of old shite and we need something better.0 -
I'm pretty sure that juvenile crimes would be stripped from his record, unless it was really serious.Charles said:
So someone gets locked up for 6months at 16 for getting involved in a bar fight. Then spends 12 years as an upstanding member of society. Can't join the police force at 29.isam said:
Someone convicted of a criminal offence. Anyone who committed a crime which carried a custodial sentence should be disallowed from being a policemanCharles said:
What is a "known criminal"?isam said:
If you are saying that someone who has ever committed a crime cannot be a policeman - which is what I am thinking you are - then there is no scope for redemption.
For me it's obvious: look at it on a case by case basis and make a decision based on the crime, how long ago it was, and the nature (e.g. anything involving integrity should be a automatic strike)
If in doubt, no thanks. Get another job, simple as that. It's not a big deal
"It was always my dream to be a policeman, but they wouldn't have me just because I used to be a crackhead/bashed up my girlfriend"
Ahhhhh0 -
Missed it - was working hard on my dairy farm.Hugh said:
Fair enough. Just the usual Tory instinctive reaction against the NHS then.TGOHF said:
Nothing special or amazing about NHS treatment - it's healthcare like they have in other countries - many of which have superior to ours.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.
Bet you loved the Olympics opening ceremony.
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Although someone getting 6 months would have had to do something pretty serious in said fight and therefore you'd need to see that the clear anger problem had been addressed before they should be considered for baton carrying.Socrates said:
I'm pretty sure that juvenile crimes would be stripped from his record, unless it was really serious.Charles said:
So someone gets locked up for 6months at 16 for getting involved in a bar fight. Then spends 12 years as an upstanding member of society. Can't join the police force at 29.isam said:
Someone convicted of a criminal offence. Anyone who committed a crime which carried a custodial sentence should be disallowed from being a policemanCharles said:
What is a "known criminal"?isam said:
If you are saying that someone who has ever committed a crime cannot be a policeman - which is what I am thinking you are - then there is no scope for redemption.
For me it's obvious: look at it on a case by case basis and make a decision based on the crime, how long ago it was, and the nature (e.g. anything involving integrity should be a automatic strike)
If in doubt, no thanks. Get another job, simple as that. It's not a big deal
"It was always my dream to be a policeman, but they wouldn't have me just because I used to be a crackhead/bashed up my girlfriend"
Ahhhhh0 -
The issue with sentences being spent is that it can sound reasonable that it takes four years for an 18 month sentence to be spent, but then you need to consider you have to have done serious wrongdoing or multiple wrongdoings to get a prison sentence in this country in the first place.TheScreamingEagles said:Generally speaking, a conviction for armed robbery leads to a sentence, that will never be spent, so they'd be ineligible to become police officers under new proposed selection criteria.
As someone who in the past has worked with people with criminals, I know they aren't all recidivists, but they get tarred with the same brush.
One of the proudest achievements of this government is to reduce the time frame for sentences to be spent.
I take the view if someone can spend years proving they have shown do have a good character, then society should reward them and partake in society (I mean this to low level crimes, there are crimes that society should never forget such as sexual crimes)
If people don't want to get tarred with being a convicted criminal, they shouldn't have committed the crime in the first place. Usually their victims have to put up with far worse.0 -
This is a very thoughtful insight.isam said:The drawback of UKIPs recent success is that all the other parties, if PB is representative, will veer massively to the left just to argue against them
Is that what fuelled the loony left of the 80s? Hatred of thatcher pushing normally moderate people to extreme positions?
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I would have thought an effective health system would improve the healthiness of the lifestyles of the mothers.Smarmeron said:@dyedwoolie
Do those statistics take into account the age and lifestyles of the mothers?0 -
@dyedwoolie
Average age in the UK is 30, I have no idea about lowly Slovenia, but I would be willing to bet that alongside age, obesity levels are lower for a start.
(you will also find that the top of the table shows a warning that figures may not be directly compatible)0 -
So what you're saying is that the average age for UK mothers is the age for the least likely child mortality, so the NHS is doing particularly badly when you include that effect?Smarmeron said:@dyedwoolie
Average age in the UK is 30, I have no idea about lowly Slovenia, but I would be willing to bet that alongside age, obesity levels are lower for a start.
(you will also find that the top of the table shows a warning that figures may not be directly compatible)
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5946a6.htm0 -
The way I see it, why take the chance? Why is it considered necessary to allow people who've been convicted of quite serious offences the opportunity to serve as police officers? Does this move strengthen or weaken public confidence in the Met.Socrates said:
I'm pretty sure that juvenile crimes would be stripped from his record, unless it was really serious.Charles said:
So someone gets locked up for 6months at 16 for getting involved in a bar fight. Then spends 12 years as an upstanding member of society. Can't join the police force at 29.isam said:
Someone convicted of a criminal offence. Anyone who committed a crime which carried a custodial sentence should be disallowed from being a policemanCharles said:
What is a "known criminal"?isam said:
If you are saying that someone who has ever committed a crime cannot be a policeman - which is what I am thinking you are - then there is no scope for redemption.
For me it's obvious: look at it on a case by case basis and make a decision based on the crime, how long ago it was, and the nature (e.g. anything involving integrity should be a automatic strike)
If in doubt, no thanks. Get another job, simple as that. It's not a big deal
"It was always my dream to be a policeman, but they wouldn't have me just because I used to be a crackhead/bashed up my girlfriend"
Ahhhhh
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Quite possibly. The table, taken in the abstract, suggests serious work is needed. Like most tables on most health issues where the NHS is concerned.Smarmeron said:@dyedwoolie
Average age in the UK is 30, I have no idea about lowly Slovenia, but I would be willing to bet that alongside age, obesity levels are lower for a start.
(you will also find that the top of the table shows a warning that figures may not be directly compatible)
Half-term report - could do better0 -
The NHS has been declared the best healthcare system by an international panel of experts who rated its care superior to countries which spend far more on health.MaxPB said:
We all pay our taxes and the NHS provides a service for that. It's not free. I have no issues with the NHS, and am thankful for it, but to pretend like many on the left that the NHS is the best health service in the world is wrong TGHOF just proved to you that the midwifery is ranked 25th globally and you just came back with irrelevance and stupid comment. The NHS provides a good service and for decent value. Beyond that it is difficult to say it is great.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.
"The United Kingdom ranks first overall, scoring highest on quality, access and efficiency," the fund's researchers conclude in their 30-page report. Their findings amount to a huge endorsement of the health service, especially as it spends the second-lowest amount on healthcare among the 11 – just £2,008 per head, less than half the £5,017 in the US. Only New Zealand, with £1,876, spent less.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health0 -
Yes. During the run-up to the Euro elections, plenty of Tories discovered their inner Polly Toynbee, just so they could disagree with UKIP.Socrates said:
This is a very thoughtful insight.isam said:The drawback of UKIPs recent success is that all the other parties, if PB is representative, will veer massively to the left just to argue against them
Is that what fuelled the loony left of the 80s? Hatred of thatcher pushing normally moderate people to extreme positions?
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I actually agree with you. All these hypothetical examples of the former girlfriend beater or pub brawler that suddenly became a perfect gentleman for the next ten years are actually hard to distinguish from the ongoing girlfriend beater or pub brawler that has only been caught once.Sean_F said:
The way I see it, why take the chance? Why is it considered necessary to allow people who've been convicted of quite serious offences the opportunity to serve as police officers? Does this move strengthen or weaken public confidence in the Met.Socrates said:
I'm pretty sure that juvenile crimes would be stripped from his record, unless it was really serious.Charles said:
So someone gets locked up for 6months at 16 for getting involved in a bar fight. Then spends 12 years as an upstanding member of society. Can't join the police force at 29.isam said:
Someone convicted of a criminal offence. Anyone who committed a crime which carried a custodial sentence should be disallowed from being a policemanCharles said:
What is a "known criminal"?isam said:
If you are saying that someone who has ever committed a crime cannot be a policeman - which is what I am thinking you are - then there is no scope for redemption.
For me it's obvious: look at it on a case by case basis and make a decision based on the crime, how long ago it was, and the nature (e.g. anything involving integrity should be a automatic strike)
If in doubt, no thanks. Get another job, simple as that. It's not a big deal
"It was always my dream to be a policeman, but they wouldn't have me just because I used to be a crackhead/bashed up my girlfriend"
Ahhhhh0 -
The NHS safely delivered both my children after difficult pregnancies, and seems to have done an effective job on me last year when I had a touch of stage III cancer. I have nothing but praise for them. In all cases I could have easily afforded to go private, but didn't.Hugh said:
Fair enough. Just the usual Tory instinctive reaction against the NHS then.TGOHF said:
Nothing special or amazing about NHS treatment - it's healthcare like they have in other countries - many of which have superior to ours.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.
Bet you loved the Olympics opening ceremony.
There's a typical tory reaction against the NHS for you.
You have been on this site a bit over 24 hours and have established beyond reasonable doubt that you are a troll and a moron. Would you please go and post somewhere else?
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Anyhow. Carry on showing your party's true colours on the NHS all you want PBTories, carry right on!0
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Half-term report - could do better
I fail to see why the left are so opposed to a system like France or Germany, these are hardly callous right wing capitalist countries run along Victorian lines. Especially France.
I guess the NHS is more about Labour's raison d'etre than it is about caring for people.0 -
That's the study where the NHS leads in all aspects of inputs, but does terribly in terms of actual health outcomes, yet still comes first overall. That's a Blairite style methodology if ever I've seen one.Hugh said:
The NHS has been declared the best healthcare system by an international panel of experts who rated its care superior to countries which spend far more on health.MaxPB said:
We all pay our taxes and the NHS provides a service for that. It's not free. I have no issues with the NHS, and am thankful for it, but to pretend like many on the left that the NHS is the best health service in the world is wrong TGHOF just proved to you that the midwifery is ranked 25th globally and you just came back with irrelevance and stupid comment. The NHS provides a good service and for decent value. Beyond that it is difficult to say it is great.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.
"The United Kingdom ranks first overall, scoring highest on quality, access and efficiency," the fund's researchers conclude in their 30-page report. Their findings amount to a huge endorsement of the health service, especially as it spends the second-lowest amount on healthcare among the 11 – just £2,008 per head, less than half the £5,017 in the US. Only New Zealand, with £1,876, spent less.
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jun/17/nhs-health0 -
@dyedwoolie
http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a538711/how-age-affects-pregnancy
Simplistic, but more scientific studies are available if you wish.0 -
Pompous git, all I've ever seen you do on this site is troll non-tories.Ishmael_X said:
The NHS safely delivered both my children after difficult pregnancies, and seems to have done an effective job on me last year when I had a touch of stage III cancer. I have nothing but praise for them. In all cases I could have easily afforded to go private, but didn't.Hugh said:
Fair enough. Just the usual Tory instinctive reaction against the NHS then.TGOHF said:
Nothing special or amazing about NHS treatment - it's healthcare like they have in other countries - many of which have superior to ours.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.
Bet you loved the Olympics opening ceremony.
There's a typical tory reaction against the NHS for you.
You have been on this site a bit over 24 hours and have established beyond reasonable doubt that you are a troll and a moron. Would you please go and post somewhere else?0 -
That articleSmarmeron said:@dyedwoolie
http://www.babycentre.co.uk/a538711/how-age-affects-pregnancy
Simplistic, but more scientific studies are available if you wish.
1) only refers to health issues with over-35 year olds, not 30 year olds
2) doesn't mention child mortality
Meanwhile the actual scientific study I linked actually showed that 30 is the age at which child mortality is lowest.0 -
A Bollocks Tax - You've got em and she'll squeeze em till the pips squeak.Scrapheap_as_was said:What type of tax does Harriet want me to pay more of?
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It aint broke so don't fix it. Or in the Tories case, flog it to your Party's donors.taffys said:Half-term report - could do better
I fail to see why the left are so opposed to a system like France or Germany, these are hardly callous right wing capitalist countries run along Victorian lines. Especially France.
I guess the NHS is more about Labour's raison d'etre than it is about caring for people.0 -
And all you do on this site is throw insults to other posters rather than discuss the details of the issues.Hugh said:
Pompous git, all I've ever seen you do on this site is troll non-tories.Ishmael_X said:
The NHS safely delivered both my children after difficult pregnancies, and seems to have done an effective job on me last year when I had a touch of stage III cancer. I have nothing but praise for them. In all cases I could have easily afforded to go private, but didn't.Hugh said:
Fair enough. Just the usual Tory instinctive reaction against the NHS then.TGOHF said:
Nothing special or amazing about NHS treatment - it's healthcare like they have in other countries - many of which have superior to ours.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.
Bet you loved the Olympics opening ceremony.
There's a typical tory reaction against the NHS for you.
You have been on this site a bit over 24 hours and have established beyond reasonable doubt that you are a troll and a moron. Would you please go and post somewhere else?0 -
Over 24 hours?Hugh said:
Pompous git, all I've ever seen you do on this site is troll non-tories.Ishmael_X said:
The NHS safely delivered both my children after difficult pregnancies, and seems to have done an effective job on me last year when I had a touch of stage III cancer. I have nothing but praise for them. In all cases I could have easily afforded to go private, but didn't.Hugh said:
Fair enough. Just the usual Tory instinctive reaction against the NHS then.TGOHF said:
Nothing special or amazing about NHS treatment - it's healthcare like they have in other countries - many of which have superior to ours.Hugh said:
What's your point? That someone shouldn't thank the NHS for receiving NHS treatment?TGOHF said:Cyclefree said:
Really? Is that the case in Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Belgium? Amazing.Hugh said:
The same way, just that more of them and their children die in the process.TGOHF said:Anyone else get the increasingly bizarre. Labour emails ?
" The arrivals of my two children were two of the happiest moments of my life (the births themselves aside!). It's memories like these that keep me fighting to protect the NHS and the values it represents. "
How do mothers abroad manage to give birth without the NHS ?
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
That other healthcare systems ( with generally more spent on them) also do, er, healthcare?
Or just the usual Tory anti-NHS grumbling.
Bet you loved the Olympics opening ceremony.
There's a typical tory reaction against the NHS for you.
You have been on this site a bit over 24 hours and have established beyond reasonable doubt that you are a troll and a moron. Would you please go and post somewhere else?0 -
Indeed. Many Tories came over all common Purpose in regards to UKIPSean_F said:
Yes. During the run-up to the Euro elections, plenty of Tories discovered their inner Polly Toynbee, just so they could disagree with UKIP.Socrates said:
This is a very thoughtful insight.isam said:The drawback of UKIPs recent success is that all the other parties, if PB is representative, will veer massively to the left just to argue against them
Is that what fuelled the loony left of the 80s? Hatred of thatcher pushing normally moderate people to extreme positions?
0 -
Hugh's last few contributions:
1. It aint broke so don't fix it. Or in the Tories case, flog it to your Party's donors.
2. Pompous git, all I've ever seen you do on this site is troll non-tories.
3. Anyhow. Carry on showing your party's true colours on the NHS all you want PBTories, carry right on!
Obviously an asset to the site...0 -
You'd need to do serious damage to get 6 months I assume, its not a drink and a barfight matter.Sean_F said:
Yes, absolutely. 6 months is a serious sentence.Charles said:
So someone gets locked up for 6months at 16 for getting involved in a bar fight. Then spends 12 years as an upstanding member of society. Can't join the police force at 29.isam said:
Someone convicted of a criminal offence. Anyone who committed a crime which carried a custodial sentence should be disallowed from being a policemanCharles said:
What is a "known criminal"?isam said:
If you are saying that someone who has ever committed a crime cannot be a policeman - which is what I am thinking you are - then there is no scope for redemption.
For me it's obvious: look at it on a case by case basis and make a decision based on the crime, how long ago it was, and the nature (e.g. anything involving integrity should be a automatic strike)
If in doubt, no thanks. Get another job, simple as that. It's not a big deal
"It was always my dream to be a policeman, but they wouldn't have me just because I used to be a crackhead/bashed up my girlfriend"
Ahhhhh
Here Mr Barton:
Premier League footballer Joey Barton has been jailed for assault and affray.
Barton, 25, was captured on CCTV in Liverpool on 27 December 2007 punching one man 20 times before an attack which left a teenage boy with broken teeth.
20 times ! Breaking a teenager's teeth - not sure I'd want someone like Mr Barton in the police tbh...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7409943.stm
Also I assume if you are 16 your age is taken into account for the sentence, so you'd have had to put someone into intensive care before getting 6 months at 16...0 -
Simplistic, but more scientific studies are available if you wish.
Labour attempts to pick a fight with the tories on health won't work. The tories are committed to keeping the NHS. Indeed, the tories can claim to run the NHS better than labour.
They could point to those people in Wales who are voting with their feet to get treatment across the border.
They could point to the fact that health is the number 1 concern for Welsh voters in the 2015 election (according to Walesonline), even though it is a devolved issue!!0 -
Stafford, Wales?Hugh said:
It aint broke so don't fix it. Or in the Tories case, flog it to your Party's donors.taffys said:Half-term report - could do better
I fail to see why the left are so opposed to a system like France or Germany, these are hardly callous right wing capitalist countries run along Victorian lines. Especially France.
I guess the NHS is more about Labour's raison d'etre than it is about caring for people.
Why wait until it is broken, improve it before it breaks, if you have any sense.0 -
@Socrates
Again, are you sure those statistics are like for like?
The statistic where Britain has a problem is in the age of first time mothers.
We seem to have reached the point where most people have to wait till far later in life before starting a family due to careers and housing availability,
As an aside, the latest birthrate for the UK shows a marked drop, which may or may not be indicative of the above.
0 -
Might not work with you, but it'll sure as hell work with the electorate.taffys said:Simplistic, but more scientific studies are available if you wish.
Labour attempts to pick a fight with the tories on health won't work. The tories are committed to keeping the NHS. Indeed, the tories can claim to run the NHS better than labour.
They could point to those people in Wales who are voting with their feet to get treatment across the border.
They could point to the fact that health is the number 1 concern for Welsh voters in the 2015 election (according to Walesonline), even though it is a devolved issue!!
Others in your Party realise this of course
the Tories have had little to say on the subject at all recently.
I'm told that there is a precise reason for this: Lynton Crosby has ordered them not to.
The Tories' fateful decision to break their promise to end the "top-down reorganisation" of the NHS means that they have lost the ground they gained in opposition, when they polled level with Labour. Such is the damage that the mere mention of the health service is now regarded as aiding Ed Miliband.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/why-tories-have-stopped-talking-about-nhs0 -
Hhmm .... "The New Statesman" that paragon of objective political thought.Hugh said:
Might not work with you, but it'll sure as hell work with the electorate.taffys said:Simplistic, but more scientific studies are available if you wish.
Labour attempts to pick a fight with the tories on health won't work. The tories are committed to keeping the NHS. Indeed, the tories can claim to run the NHS better than labour.
They could point to those people in Wales who are voting with their feet to get treatment across the border.
They could point to the fact that health is the number 1 concern for Welsh voters in the 2015 election (according to Walesonline), even though it is a devolved issue!!
Others in your Party realise this of course
the Tories have had little to say on the subject at all recently.
I'm told that there is a precise reason for this: Lynton Crosby has ordered them not to.
The Tories' fateful decision to break their promise to end the "top-down reorganisation" of the NHS means that they have lost the ground they gained in opposition, when they polled level with Labour. Such is the damage that the mere mention of the health service is now regarded as aiding Ed Miliband.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2014/06/why-tories-have-stopped-talking-about-nhs
In other news from Labours house magazine - Conservative MP's clog up A&E departments with baby eating disorders.
0 -
0
-
''Might not work with you, but it'll sure as hell work with the electorate.''
I don't think the electorate are the fools you take them to be. People know what went on at Stafford, and they know what's going on in Wales.0 -
The thing about the NHS is that it is more efficient than comparable health systems, including those you name. That's its dirty little secret. It's cheap. And that is the other reason politicians don't want to switch to an insurance-based system.taffys said:Half-term report - could do better
I fail to see why the left are so opposed to a system like France or Germany, these are hardly callous right wing capitalist countries run along Victorian lines. Especially France.
I guess the NHS is more about Labour's raison d'etre than it is about caring for people.0 -
Concerning the NHS:
Private Eye #1370, on page eight, has a short article under "HP Sauce" to the effect that (in PMQs I think) Cameron said that
*under this government* (apparently said boastfully more than once) the NHS has been found to be the world’s best healthcare system – citing a survey (by the Commonwealth Fund) that was done BEFORE the Health and Social Care Act came into force.
As, according to P. Eye, the evaluation was done before the Health & Social Care Act, I---Toms---can only assume that the rating is essentially a legacy of *previous* governments.
I wonder: Should this be true, Is this an example of Cameron being parsimonius with the truth or just a lack of knowledge, or laziness, on his part. If the former, I'm just wondering if this be typical of many/most politicians?0 -
I don't think the electorate are fools, but I do know they trust Labour more than the Tories on the NHS.taffys said:''Might not work with you, but it'll sure as hell work with the electorate.''
I don't think the electorate are the fools you take them to be. People know what went on at Stafford, and they know what's going on in Wales.
Do you really, honestly, think the Tories want the NHS to be a big election issue? Really?0 -
First, the Tories are unlikely to want to fight on an issue which -- fairly or unfairly -- favours Labour.taffys said:''Might not work with you, but it'll sure as hell work with the electorate.''
I don't think the electorate are the fools you take them to be. People know what went on at Stafford, and they know what's going on in Wales.
Second, the Tories are unlikely to want to fight in a way that looks like an attack on Wales. They've seen what happened in Scotland where being perceived as anti-Scots reduced their couple of dozen MPs to one (none for a time). There are eight Conservative MPs in Wales, more than the LibDems and Plaid Cymru combined, and the party would quite like to keep it that way.0 -
''Do you really, honestly, think the Tories want the NHS to be a big election issue?''
I didn't claim they do. What is certain is that before every election where the tories have been in government Labour mounts a giant offensive on the NHS.
My contention is they will be far less able to go on the attack than before
I watched Douglas Alexander try to go on the attack on health in a recent QT. Nadhim Zahawi reduced him to head shaking silence just by mentioning Wales, and trotting out a few statistics.
0 -
It's pretty clear that the next Tory leader is going to be a better off outer and one that is willing to campaign to leave the E.U.
Cameron has said that he would campaign to leave the E.U if the negotiation isn't good enough. The Tories won't get a negotiation if they don't win a majority - which they won't - clearing the way for a candidate to come forward and say. "No we campaign to leave"
Cameron has further normalised this position by putting a better off outer as foreign secretary.
0 -
Betting wise I just don't see how you back anyone who isn't a better of outer to be the next Tory leader.0
-
Well, I seem to remember Labour blaming Thatcher for all and sundry up to 2010, so not a unique occurrence.Toms said:Concerning the NHS:
Private Eye #1370, on page eight, has a short article under "HP Sauce" to the effect that (in PMQs I think) Cameron said that
*under this government* (apparently said boastfully more than once) the NHS has been found to be the world’s best healthcare system – citing a survey (by the Commonwealth Fund) that was done BEFORE the Health and Social Care Act came into force.
As, according to P. Eye, the evaluation was done before the Health & Social Care Act, I---Toms---can only assume that the rating is essentially a legacy of *previous* governments.
I wonder: Should this be true, Is this an example of Cameron being parsimonius with the truth or just a lack of knowledge, or laziness, on his part. If the former, I'm just wondering if this be typical of many/most politicians?0 -
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …0 -
Can journos in Gaza be described as paparazzi?Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
0 -
I have no issue with journalists filming deaths and other human rights abuses. But they way they were shoving their cameras in the poor woman's face so that they could capture the precise moment she discovered her child was killed seemed to cross a line of decency for me.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.0 -
I couldn't agree more.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.0 -
It might be cheap, but does it fix broke people? I meet people with long term health conditions every day for my job. I am shocked at how un-proactive the health service seems to be. People are left with little effective treatment for months on end. They go on indefinite waiting lists for procedures that themselves will take months to recover from, such as hip replacements. There is apparently no appetite among medical professionals to get to the root of a problem and fix it while the patient still has a job to return to. You can't get an appointment with your GP and when you can it is probably only 5 minutes even if you have 3 conflicting long-term health problems (why can't your GP refer you back to herself for a longer, in-depth consultation?) GPs casually tell people "you will never work again" assuming a life on benefits is all they can aspire to. Access to services such as pain clinics and mental health services for mild-to-moderate mental health are improving, but patchy to say the least. How does this compare with other countries? I get the impression that the cheapness is because we don't actually bother trying to treat people.DecrepitJohnL said:
The thing about the NHS is that it is more efficient than comparable health systems, including those you name. That's its dirty little secret. It's cheap. And that is the other reason politicians don't want to switch to an insurance-based system.taffys said:Half-term report - could do better
I fail to see why the left are so opposed to a system like France or Germany, these are hardly callous right wing capitalist countries run along Victorian lines. Especially France.
I guess the NHS is more about Labour's raison d'etre than it is about caring for people.
0 -
200:1. That is the ratio Israel believes in.
It is a Terror State. The US is its poodle.0 -
I guess "it's not what you say, but how you say it", in politics, often..philiph said:
Well, I seem to remember Labour blaming Thatcher for all and sundry up to 2010, so not a unique occurrence.Toms said:Concerning the NHS:
Private Eye #1370, on page eight, has a short article under "HP Sauce" to the effect that (in PMQs I think) Cameron said that
*under this government* (apparently said boastfully more than once) the NHS has been found to be the world’s best healthcare system – citing a survey (by the Commonwealth Fund) that was done BEFORE the Health and Social Care Act came into force.
As, according to P. Eye, the evaluation was done before the Health & Social Care Act, I---Toms---can only assume that the rating is essentially a legacy of *previous* governments.
I wonder: Should this be true, Is this an example of Cameron being parsimonius with the truth or just a lack of knowledge, or laziness, on his part. If the former, I'm just wondering if this be typical of many/most politicians?0 -
As terrible as this event is, to describe the kids as "murdered" is hardly accurate.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.
Israel goes out of their way to warn people when they are going to strike, whereas Hamas fires random rockets at civilians.
Just trying to put some balance in here.
0 -
Israel is losing the PR war just like South Africa in the 1980's.MarkHopkins said:
As terrible as this event is, to describe the kids as "murdered" is hardly accurate.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.
Israel goes out of their way to warn people when they are going to strike, whereas Hamas fires random rockets at civilians.
Just trying to put some balance in here.0 -
Those children look pretty murdered to me. Or did they spontaneously drop dead of natural causes?MarkHopkins said:
As terrible as this event is, to describe the kids as "murdered" is hardly accurate.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.
Israel goes out of their way to warn people when they are going to strike, whereas Hamas fires random rockets at civilians.
Just trying to put some balance in here.
0 -
The second part of the BBC immigration documentary is on right now. They have a second generation immigrant from India who felt her parents made a deliberate effort to integrate, and had to because immigrants were relatively few. Now she feels theres too many immigrants for that to happen.0
-
Do you think Israel deliberately tried to kill children?MonikerDiCanio said:
Those children look pretty murdered to me. Or did they spontaneously drop dead of natural causes?MarkHopkins said:
As terrible as this event is, to describe the kids as "murdered" is hardly accurate.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.
Israel goes out of their way to warn people when they are going to strike, whereas Hamas fires random rockets at civilians.
Just trying to put some balance in here.
0 -
Warning people you are to indiscriminately fire upon them is I suspect little comfort.MarkHopkins said:
As terrible as this event is, to describe the kids as "murdered" is hardly accurate.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.
Israel goes out of their way to warn people when they are going to strike, whereas Hamas fires random rockets at civilians.
Just trying to put some balance in here.
0 -
Someone deliberately fired high explosives at them. I'd classify that person as a murderer.MarkHopkins said:
Do you think Israel deliberately tried to kill children?MonikerDiCanio said:
Those children look pretty murdered to me. Or did they spontaneously drop dead of natural causes?MarkHopkins said:
As terrible as this event is, to describe the kids as "murdered" is hardly accurate.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.
Israel goes out of their way to warn people when they are going to strike, whereas Hamas fires random rockets at civilians.
Just trying to put some balance in here.
0 -
I think the only way out of this is a single state solution, since both Israel and Palestine are too small to be viable states on their own and they need the others territory for security and economic reasons then a single federated country composed by 3 states is the only solution that can satisfy both the ultra-orthodox, the moderates and Hamas since it would allow each to retain their own fiefdom and the settlements.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …0 -
I so dislike those kind of phrases. Lots of journalists are no doubt decent witness bearers but many are not - they have agendas and prejudices and that's why many are no doubt in Gaza. Israel issued warnings which Hamas urged the people to ignore. They are using people as human shields which is also pretty despicable. If Israel is 'losing' the PR war that says a lot about people's values and agendas in itself.SeanT said:
No. They're bloody brave, is what they are: Gaza is a truly dangerous, depressing place to work, and any journalist who does it deserves respect - for the simple act of bearing witness.Theuniondivvie said:
Can journos in Gaza be described as paparazzi?Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …0 -
Wow. The UK spends 350 billion a year on teaching immigrant kids English out of the education budget.0
-
True, people did not care pretty much about apartheid until the early 1980's or about civil rights until the early 1960's so people's values do change over time, but when they change oh boy you see the change.felix said:
I so dislike those kind of phrases. Lots of journalists are no doubt decent witness bearers but many are not - they have agendas and prejudices and that's why many are no doubt in Gaza. Israel issued warnings which Hamas urged the people to ignore. They are using people as human shields which is also pretty despicable. If Israel is 'losing' the PR war that says a lot about people's values and agendas in itself.SeanT said:
No. They're bloody brave, is what they are: Gaza is a truly dangerous, depressing place to work, and any journalist who does it deserves respect - for the simple act of bearing witness.Theuniondivvie said:
Can journos in Gaza be described as paparazzi?Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …0 -
To put these warnings in balanced perspective, in the past Israel has treated people leaving their homes in the face of war as ceding property rights and promptly seized their property.MarkHopkins said:
As terrible as this event is, to describe the kids as "murdered" is hardly accurate.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.
Israel goes out of their way to warn people when they are going to strike, whereas Hamas fires random rockets at civilians.
Just trying to put some balance in here.
0 -
I fear the situation is an almighty mess which lacks a short or even medium term solution. I understand the mentality of Israel given its history and geographical position. The various Muslim fundamentalist groups are as determined on its destruction as some Jewish extremists are determined on its expansion.Speedy said:
I think the only way out of this is a single state solution, since both Israel and Palestine are too small to be viable states on their own and they need the others territory for security and economic reasons then a single federated country composed by 3 states is the only solution that can satisfy both the ultra-orthodox, the moderates and Hamas since it would allow each to retain their own fiefdom and the settlements.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …0 -
Do you seriously think Israel deliberately targeted children?SeanT said:
If you fire shells from a gunboat at children playing football on a beach, without warning, it is unsurprising if those children are then blown to pieces.MarkHopkins said:
Do you think Israel deliberately tried to kill children?MonikerDiCanio said:
Those children look pretty murdered to me. Or did they spontaneously drop dead of natural causes?MarkHopkins said:
As terrible as this event is, to describe the kids as "murdered" is hardly accurate.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.
Israel goes out of their way to warn people when they are going to strike, whereas Hamas fires random rockets at civilians.
Just trying to put some balance in here.
Murdered seems right to me. But perhaps "cruelly slaughtered" is better. Smited with holy righteousness? Precisely yet accidentally vaporised?
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Palestine has a population of four million, Israel eight million. Given that Norway has a population of five million, New Zealand four million and Slovenia two million, I don't see why either Palestine or Israel are non-viable. Trying to get two populations with deep-seated resentment working together seems non-viable to me. It's hard enough in Canada and Belgium.Speedy said:
I think the only way out of this is a single state solution, since both Israel and Palestine are too small to be viable states on their own and they need the others territory for security and economic reasons then a single federated country composed by 3 states is the only solution that can satisfy both the ultra-orthodox, the moderates and Hamas since it would allow each to retain their own fiefdom and the settlements.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …0 -
Hence neither Israel or its neighbourhood is ever at peace.felix said:
I fear the situation is an almighty mess which lacks a short or even medium term solution. I understand the mentality of Israel given its history and geographical position. The various Muslim fundamentalist groups are as determined on its destruction as some Jewish extremists are determined on its expansion.Speedy said:
I think the only way out of this is a single state solution, since both Israel and Palestine are too small to be viable states on their own and they need the others territory for security and economic reasons then a single federated country composed by 3 states is the only solution that can satisfy both the ultra-orthodox, the moderates and Hamas since it would allow each to retain their own fiefdom and the settlements.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …0 -
Hamas have deliberately fired tens of thousands of rockets at civilian areas without warning.MonikerDiCanio said:
Someone deliberately fired high explosives at them. I'd classify that person as a murderer.MarkHopkins said:
Do you think Israel deliberately tried to kill children?MonikerDiCanio said:
Those children look pretty murdered to me. Or did they spontaneously drop dead of natural causes?MarkHopkins said:
As terrible as this event is, to describe the kids as "murdered" is hardly accurate.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.
Israel goes out of their way to warn people when they are going to strike, whereas Hamas fires random rockets at civilians.
Just trying to put some balance in here.
Including deliberately firing on an Israeli school bus.
Hamas are murderers and attempted murderers too.0 -
SeanT is right
Those kids were murdered. There is no other way of looking at it. Israel is a country out of control.0 -
£350 billion, that would be a bit difficult, given the total education budget is £87bn.0
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Hmm - not sure either example is comparable to the situation in the Middle East. In the simple world of journalist headlines maybe Israel bad/Palestine good may sell a few papers but if forced to choose between Hamas and Isis versus the survival of Israel my vote remains with Israel.Speedy said:
True, people did not care pretty much about apartheid until the early 1980's or about civil rights until the early 1960's so people's values do change over time, but when they change oh boy you see the change.felix said:
I so dislike those kind of phrases. Lots of journalists are no doubt decent witness bearers but many are not - they have agendas and prejudices and that's why many are no doubt in Gaza. Israel issued warnings which Hamas urged the people to ignore. They are using people as human shields which is also pretty despicable. If Israel is 'losing' the PR war that says a lot about people's values and agendas in itself.SeanT said:
No. They're bloody brave, is what they are: Gaza is a truly dangerous, depressing place to work, and any journalist who does it deserves respect - for the simple act of bearing witness.Theuniondivvie said:
Can journos in Gaza be described as paparazzi?Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …0 -
Oh, I agree, it was kind of a rhetorical question.SeanT said:
No. They're bloody brave, is what they are: Gaza is a truly dangerous, depressing place to work, and any journalist who does it deserves respect - for the simple act of bearing witness.Theuniondivvie said:
Can journos in Gaza be described as paparazzi?Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
Don McCullin (who's a bit of a hero of mine) is pretty good on the psychology of doing the job, and the breaking point one reaches.
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New Thread0
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If you fire at a packed beach in summer it's highly likely that many there will be children playing.MarkHopkins said:
Do you seriously think Israel deliberately targeted children?SeanT said:
If you fire shells from a gunboat at children playing football on a beach, without warning, it is unsurprising if those children are then blown to pieces.MarkHopkins said:
Do you think Israel deliberately tried to kill children?MonikerDiCanio said:
Those children look pretty murdered to me. Or did they spontaneously drop dead of natural causes?MarkHopkins said:
As terrible as this event is, to describe the kids as "murdered" is hardly accurate.SeanT said:
If there hadn't been journalists staying right by the beach, where the kids were murdered, then there would have been no reports, and no global outrage.Socrates said:
That was awful, but I was also disgusted by the paps exploiting her tragedy for copy.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
As it was, there were journalists to hand - dozens of credible, serious, neutral eye-witnesses - and now Israel has been forced into a ceasefire: so lives have been saved.
Journalism may be intrusive and painful, but it is also important and necessary.
Israel goes out of their way to warn people when they are going to strike, whereas Hamas fires random rockets at civilians.
Just trying to put some balance in here.
Murdered seems right to me. But perhaps "cruelly slaughtered" is better. Smited with holy righteousness? Precisely yet accidentally vaporised?
Artillery shells are not smart weapons.
Join the dots.
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Can't join it everCharles said:
So someone gets locked up for 6months at 16 for getting involved in a bar fight. Then spends 12 years as an upstanding member of society. Can't join the police force at 29.isam said:
Someone convicted of a criminal offence. Anyone who committed a crime which carried a custodial sentence should be disallowed from being a policemanCharles said:
If in doubt, no thanks. Get another job, simple as that. It's not a big deal
"It was always my dream to be a policeman, but they wouldn't have me just because I used to be a crackhead/bashed up my girlfriend"
Ahhhhh0 -
I'm talking about territorial size and resources, if Palestine ever becomes independent the border will be just a mile away from the Israeli parliament plus Palestine will be in 2 separate small pieces, that is the practical reason why Israel cannot except a Palestinian state, there are religious reasons too in that the ultra-orthodox jews believe that God gave them the land and its a sin to abandon even a small piece of it hence the settlements.Socrates said:
Palestine has a population of four million, Israel eight million. Given that Norway has a population of five million, New Zealand four million and Slovenia two million, I don't see why either Palestine or Israel are non-viable. Trying to get two populations with deep-seated resentment working together seems non-viable to me. It's hard enough in Canada and Belgium.Speedy said:
I think the only way out of this is a single state solution, since both Israel and Palestine are too small to be viable states on their own and they need the others territory for security and economic reasons then a single federated country composed by 3 states is the only solution that can satisfy both the ultra-orthodox, the moderates and Hamas since it would allow each to retain their own fiefdom and the settlements.SeanT said:The Gazan mother of those four kids killed on the beach today, filmed as she realised their fate.
Warning: unf*ckingbearable
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10154324412900004&set=vb.617260003&type=2&theater …
A federation is the only way, you give me Canada I give you Lebanon as an example.0 -
Indeed he is, and indeed it is.IOS said:SeanT is right
Those kids were murdered. There is no other way of looking at it. Israel is a country out of control.
There is no justification, none, for Israel's brutality, terrorism, slaughter, oppression, occupation, and generally repulsive illegal behaviour.
It wouldn't be acceptable from a backward tinpot third world dictatorship, never mind a modern, democratic, nuclear armed first world superpower.0 -
The ranking is averaged 1995-2010 so the actual ranks (if i added it right) for the NHS was:TGOHF said:
We are a measly 25th behind Slovenia
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_infant_mortality_rate
8th (1950-1955)
10th (1955-1960)
10th (1960-1965)
10th (1965-1970)
13th (1970-1975)
14th (1975-1980)
16th (1980-1985)
18th (1985-1990)
13th in the 1990-1995 column <-- dunno what happened here
21st in the 1995-2000 column
27th in the 2000-2005 column
29th in the 2005-2010 column
The only countries ahead at the beginning were the usual list of small & sensible: Iceland, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, Holland, Austria, Switzerland, New Zealand, Australia, Czechs.
Britain was miles ahead of all the big countries gradually getting worse from 1970-ish then plummeting in the last 20 years.
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