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US YouGov poll finds 36% of Americans saying the Royal Family is racist – just 19% say they aren’t –

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  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,177
    UK vaccinations

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  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 33,255
    FF43 said:

    The EU made mistakes with its procurement.

    A more interesting point to me is about the Horizon programme. If it funded research that led to four out of the six main vaccines, and the companies concerned do appear to credit the programme, that's a huge success and one we don't really hear about. I am not talking about EU good/bad/whatever. The programme itself really seems to have delivered !
    You do realise that the UK contributed more than 10% of the Horizon funding in 2020? Which is not included in the calculations of UK support for vaccine development. So including that as an argument for 'EU' funding of vaccine R&D seems a little disingenuous.

    The fact is that the EU does not and did not pull its weight on this and has no right to moan about the way things have gone now.
  • AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 3,411

    Very smoothly for us. My son hated the idea of going back but as the school have very successfully been running a full timetable remotely, on the surface at least the transition has been pretty seamless for pupils and parents. I suspect that for the staff it is a case of the swan swimming serenely whilst paddling frantically beneath the surface.

    My son finds it difficult to keep up in some face to face lessons but has thrived in the remote learning environment so in some ways I am sad to see him go back to school. He also sees his friends less at school at the moment because of restrictions. It was much easier to chat with them online when everyone was at home.
    I know of one family where the remote learning sessions were the parents' first indication how much their child was struggling in the ordinary school environment. They've followed through and have been able to transfer the child to a special school which is much more suitable.

    Wouldn't be surprising if this had happened to several children, so some plus factors to set against all those who have been hard hit by lack of in-person school.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530

    If that's true then they should have directed all of their ire at the tabloids and made clear that they had no bone to pick with the royal family, but it wasn't for them and they weren't enjoying it as a result.

    But, they didn't.
    Their complaint that no one said anything to the papers to behave is a fair one (though, why Harry didn't do it himself, I don't know).

    But the problem is that she went nuclear with the skin colour claim.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,263

    I don't know - wouldn't all that trouble look more like confirming that there's an issue?

    The aim should really be to shut the Sussexes up by mutual consent, or failing that, discredit them completely so that people are less and less interested each time they decide to get some more column inches by telling more tales of royal racist woe.

    If it came to the latter, I'd suggest
    A) If the Meghan bullying allegations are true, ensuring that information enters the public domain, and the victims are rightly compensated
    B ) If Archiegate is overblown, this should also enter the public domain
    There's an issue already with the allegations and the damage is done.

    The time for totally ignoring it is past now, sadly. Some myths are taking root that could damage the royal family and the reputation of the UK as a result, and that requires rebuttal action I'm afraid.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,177
    This one is especially interesting -

    image

    - There is the bump in cases from the school testing among the 0-14 group
    - 85+ are now as likely to get COVID as children
    - 65-85+ numbers are falling faster than everyone else - vaccination effect.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,263
    tlg86 said:

    Their complaint that no one said anything to the papers to behave is a fair one (though, why Harry didn't do it himself, I don't know).

    But the problem is that she went nuclear with the skin colour claim.
    Maybe that's the American (and particularly Californian) way.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533
    Scott_xP said:
    East Ham? Electoral fraud? Absent internal faction squabbling what would be the need?
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547

    UK vaccinations

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    My wife volunteers at a vaccine centre. I said previously their shifts were massively ramping up. That started today. Tomorrow’s numbers might be the start of something big.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    kle4 said:

    East Ham? Electoral fraud? Absent internal faction squabbling what would be the need?
    If anything it’s a charitable act, saving the local authority the job of going through the motions of a count.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775
    MrEd said:

    Funnily enough, certainly amongst the Republican commentators, Harry is getting more flak than Meghan who is seen as merely trying to ingratiate herself into the woke aristocracy. He is seen as a patsy who lets his wife trash his family.
    Yes, I can imagine that take in those quarters. A real man doesn't let his woman lead him by the nose. He's lives strong. He lives free.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,304
    edited March 2021
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 54,177

    My wife volunteers at a vaccine centre. I said previously their shifts were massively ramping up. That started today. Tomorrow’s numbers might be the start of something big.
    We all hope so.
  • Time_to_LeaveTime_to_Leave Posts: 2,547
    edited March 2021
    Is it a clever plan to import no voters? Perhaps be can add in a change to the law to allow you to register where you work and have half a million of them notionally work there?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775

    Yes, that's a good article.

    Harry and Meghan's main complaint is Meghan's treatment by the tabloids, not the alleged racism of the royal family. It has been all along. It seems to me unsurprising that the tabloids would focus almost entirely on the apparent besmirching of the good name of the royal family rather than the running sore of the tabloids' shoddy treatment of Meghan. I guess the couple's mistake was to give the tabloids the excuse to conveniently set aside the substance of the complaint against them (the tabloids) and focus on an entirely speculative story about who may or may not be a bit dodgy on race in the royal family.
    Very much agree. It's no shock horror at all - least to me - if one or two members of the Royals are not wholly free of racism, but certain sections of the press, oh god.
  • Moving house tomorrow
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530
    Ed Miliband has been on quite a journey...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-33325142

    Ed Miliband has said the government's failure to provide more funding for a South Yorkshire colliery is "wrong".

    Hatfield Colliery near Doncaster announced on Monday it would close unexpectedly at the end of the week - instead of a managed closure next summer - with the loss of 430 jobs.

    Doncaster North MP and former Labour leader Mr Miliband said it was a "harsh decision, not a one nation decision."


    https://twitter.com/Ed_Miliband/status/1370104263943282690
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,352

    They have indeed behaved not just badly but disgracefully. Your Whataboutism is pointless here. Andrew should indeed be hung out to dry for his actions but that in no way excuses the way the Sussexes have behaved.
    One can also have some sympathy for how H&M have been treated, without thinking their behaviour acceptable.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,095

    UK vaccinations

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    A dramatic slowing in the progress of first vaccinations
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 8,905

    This one is especially interesting -

    image

    - There is the bump in cases from the school testing among the 0-14 group
    - 85+ are now as likely to get COVID as children
    - 65-85+ numbers are falling faster than everyone else - vaccination effect.

    The increase in cases amongst children is still relatively modest at the end of the first week, which is important. If it doesn't get any worse then the likelihood of April 12th being delayed by excessive panic over R is, presumably, very much reduced.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 51,095
    kle4 said:

    East Ham? Electoral fraud? Absent internal faction squabbling what would be the need?
    I read this as fraud within the Labour party, rather than public electoral fraud
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,785
    tlg86 said:

    Ed Miliband has been on quite a journey...

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-33325142

    Ed Miliband has said the government's failure to provide more funding for a South Yorkshire colliery is "wrong".

    Hatfield Colliery near Doncaster announced on Monday it would close unexpectedly at the end of the week - instead of a managed closure next summer - with the loss of 430 jobs.

    Doncaster North MP and former Labour leader Mr Miliband said it was a "harsh decision, not a one nation decision."


    https://twitter.com/Ed_Miliband/status/1370104263943282690

    Silly man.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,467
    edited March 2021

    Moving house tomorrow

    Will you be known as IncorrectCamelBattery in the interim?

    PS. Good luck!
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 59,352
    MaxPB said:

    Evidence for that assertion please.
    I suspect (and it's just a suspicion) that almost every vaccine programme will have taken money at some point from the Wellcome Trust, Horizon, regional development agencies, the UK government, and various others. That's the nature of something that was - until recently - pretty unfashionable, and where researchers will have spent their time grubbing for grants.

    But having taken (at some point, and for some portion of related research) money from Horizon is very far from Horizon having been the - or even a - major funder.
  • Silly man.
    What I say every time I read one of your posts
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530
    Well, he's running for election in the right part of the country with views like that.
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,996
    edited March 2021

    Silly man.
    Tory backbenchers solidly behind mining jobs and northern Labour MPs rubbishing them.....If you live long enough you see the lot. But look no further for understanding the Tory Northern Wall

  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,104

    Is it a clever plan to import no voters? Perhaps be can add in a change to the law to allow you to register where you work and have half a million of them notionally work there?
    It looks a good idea to me - why should everything be focused in London? Can pretty much work anywhere across the UK with tech nowadays.

    I’d probably go further and split up most of the functions across the UK, keeping no.10 on Whitehall
  • RazedabodeRazedabode Posts: 3,104

    Is it a clever plan to import no voters? Perhaps be can add in a change to the law to allow you to register where you work and have half a million of them notionally work there?
    It looks a good idea to me - why should everything be focused in London? Can pretty much work anywhere across the UK with tech nowadays.

    I’d probably go further and split up most of the functions across the UK, keeping no.10 on Whitehall
  • algarkirkalgarkirk Posts: 13,996
    tlg86 said:

    Well, he's running for election in the right part of the country with views like that.
    Well I quite sympathise with Lozza over various matters, but there are no compulsory vaccines in UK nor any plans to start, so what's the issue?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,467
    algarkirk said:

    Well I quite sympathise with Lozza over various matters, but there are no compulsory vaccines in UK nor any plans to start, so what's the issue?
    Pretty clear he'll be for the legalisation of Cocaine.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    I am not best pleased to receive a letter from the Census Office inviting me to complete the survey online - or to ring a freephone line to request a hard copy. Deeply resent the assumption that people wish to use the Internet for this. Frankly unless the hard copy is provided in the normal way, they can sing for their supper!
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,785
    rcs1000 said:

    One can also have some sympathy for how H&M have been treated, without thinking their behaviour acceptable.
    The press stories (Mail and Express) are often bizarre and have a peculiar slant. I don't think it's racistly motivated; I think it was the same with Diana and people like Selina Scott. I am surprised that readers go for this sort of thing really. However, I am not in favour of 'action' being taken, because that would almost certainly be a curtailment of a free press, and on balance I prefer to live in a country where wealthy celebrities endure unfair and sometimes cruel criticism to a country where they are considered immune from it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,794
    justin124 said:

    I am not best pleased to receive a letter from the Census Office inviting me to complete the survey online - or to ring a freephone line to request a hard copy. Deeply resent the assumption that people wish to use the Internet for this. Frankly unless the hard copy is provided in the normal way, they can sing for their supper!

    Why bother havent done a census ever
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,815
    rcs1000 said:

    It's a perfectly reasonable view.

    But if you're going to take that view, you also have to say that business owners should be able to have the sovereign choice not to employee or serve people who haven't been vaccinated.

    And that's where Lozza falls down.
    Exactly, he should be challenged on this aspect, businesses are run by private individuals and they should be able to run them as they see fit and this can include refusing customers who haven't been vaccinated once all adults have been offered it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,263

    What I say every time I read one of your posts
    Why have you been so tetchy the last 24 hours?

    Is it lockdown?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533
    justin124 said:

    I am not best pleased to receive a letter from the Census Office inviting me to complete the survey online - or to ring a freephone line to request a hard copy. Deeply resent the assumption that people wish to use the Internet for this. Frankly unless the hard copy is provided in the normal way, they can sing for their supper!

    I had a feeling there would be some reactions like this, and I cannot say I really understand it. What if someone had received a hard copy and said they equally resented the assumption that people wish to use a hard copy for this? Would their resentment be less reasonable than your resentment? Is a hard copy census a god given right?

    So long as the information is collected in the usual way and people are able to fill it in offline if they wish, what exactly is there to resent?

    It's not as though they are taking a choice away from you. You never had a choice about how to fill out a census, other than in ways the government said you could. They are encouraging it to be in a different way without prohibiting the other.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    justin124 said:

    I am not best pleased to receive a letter from the Census Office inviting me to complete the survey online - or to ring a freephone line to request a hard copy. Deeply resent the assumption that people wish to use the Internet for this. Frankly unless the hard copy is provided in the normal way, they can sing for their supper!

    Despatch a messenger to inform them that you only use the internet for PB. Standards must be upheld.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530
    justin124 said:

    I am not best pleased to receive a letter from the Census Office inviting me to complete the survey online - or to ring a freephone line to request a hard copy. Deeply resent the assumption that people wish to use the Internet for this. Frankly unless the hard copy is provided in the normal way, they can sing for their supper!

    I'm not close to it this time, but I wonder if there is a plan to send out questionnaires to those who do not respond by, say, 25 March?

    If you just wait, you might find they send you a questionnaire in the post like in 2011.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 54,801
    This is just produced from a still image.
    https://twitter.com/oldnorthroad/status/1370403555287445504?s=21
  • justin124 said:

    I am not best pleased to receive a letter from the Census Office inviting me to complete the survey online - or to ring a freephone line to request a hard copy. Deeply resent the assumption that people wish to use the Internet for this. Frankly unless the hard copy is provided in the normal way, they can sing for their supper!

    I thought they tested this out and the overwhelming majority of people prefered to complete the census online.

    I guess with a pandemic on they'd much rather do it digitally.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,263
    My wife tells me Bulgaria have now suspended AZ due to this "bad batch" rumour, which is argued to cause blood clots and a few deaths thereof.

    I've told her it's almost certainly bollocks but it seems that confirmation bias on an already heavily sledged vaccine is doing all the work there.

    https://ewnews.com/bad-batch-several-eu-countries-suspend-use-of-a-batch-of-astrazeneca-after-reports-of-blood-clotting
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,785
    algarkirk said:

    Tory backbenchers solidly behind mining jobs and northern Labour MPs rubbishing them.....If you live long enough you see the lot. But look no further for understanding the Tory Northern Wall

    Keir will have to wave A LOT of union flags around to compensate for this.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 39,815
    rcs1000 said:

    I suspect (and it's just a suspicion) that almost every vaccine programme will have taken money at some point from the Wellcome Trust, Horizon, regional development agencies, the UK government, and various others. That's the nature of something that was - until recently - pretty unfashionable, and where researchers will have spent their time grubbing for grants.

    But having taken (at some point, and for some portion of related research) money from Horizon is very far from Horizon having been the - or even a - major funder.
    Yes, H2020 is such a wide ranging programme that I'd be surprised if the successful vaccines developed in Europe (AZ, Pfizer, Valneva and CureVac) all got some level of funding from the programme. I know that the major funding for CureVax and BioNTech came from the German state and for AZ the funding for the Jenner institute is mostly domestic via the Wellcome Trust and the state. It would be interesting to see what the percentage of funding for each of the vaccines actually is, maybe I'll set a junior on the task next week. 🤔
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,263

    Moving house tomorrow

    Ah, that explains it. A stressful process.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533

    I thought they tested this out and the overwhelming majority of people prefered to complete the census online.

    I guess with a pandemic on they'd much rather do it digitally.
    It will be interesting to see if compliance decreases. But given it has always simply been a legal obligation to complete it in the manner instructed, and instruction includes possible hard copy completion, what outrage could be sustained?

    I've half a mind to complain it is not in my preferred font - Garamond.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 30,785
    He's a dead ringer for Tony Robinson isn't he? Secret descendant?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 121,635
    edited March 2021
    Shame on Arsenal, they really have loss their class since Stan Kroenke took over.

    I bet they spend more on Willian.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9351827/Arsenal-football-club-responsibility-fire-trap-flats-says-Jeremy-Corbyn.html
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 53,628

    He's a dead ringer for Tony Robinson isn't he? Secret descendant?
    Hmmm
    image
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 62,263

    Hmmm
    image
    Doesn't look right to me.

    Where's "sod off" ?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    kle4 said:

    I had a feeling there would be some reactions like this, and I cannot say I really understand it. What if someone had received a hard copy and said they equally resented the assumption that people wish to use a hard copy for this? Would their resentment be less reasonable than your resentment? Is a hard copy census a god given right?

    So long as the information is collected in the usual way and people are able to fill it in offline if they wish, what exactly is there to resent?

    It's not as though they are taking a choice away from you. You never had a choice about how to fill out a census, other than in ways the government said you could. They are encouraging it to be in a different way without prohibiting the other.
    kle4 said:

    I had a feeling there would be some reactions like this, and I cannot say I really understand it. What if someone had received a hard copy and said they equally resented the assumption that people wish to use a hard copy for this? Would their resentment be less reasonable than your resentment? Is a hard copy census a god given right?

    So long as the information is collected in the usual way and people are able to fill it in offline if they wish, what exactly is there to resent?

    It's not as though they are taking a choice away from you. You never had a choice about how to fill out a census, other than in ways the government said you could. They are encouraging it to be in a different way without prohibiting the other.
    I object to their assumption that people have access to the internet - or indeed a telephone. Happy to complete and hand to a collector in line with past practice - or to send via post.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,489
    justin124 said:

    I object to their assumption that people have access to the internet - or indeed a telephone. Happy to complete and hand to a collector in line with past practice - or to send via post.
    It must be different in Wales, we received the hard copy to fill in with an option to go online with the same internet code.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,933
    IanB2 said:

    A dramatic slowing in the progress of first vaccinations
    Just when I am 8 months outside the cut off point.
    Damn.
  • justin124 said:

    I object to their assumption that people have access to the internet - or indeed a telephone. Happy to complete and hand to a collector in line with past practice - or to send via post.
    Can you think why in current circumstances handing a paper copy to a collector might not be a good idea?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775
    Pagan2 said:

    Why bother havent done a census ever
    You don't see it as a public duty then.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530

    Shame on Arsenal, they really have loss their class since Stan Kroenke took over.

    I bet they spend more on Willian.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9351827/Arsenal-football-club-responsibility-fire-trap-flats-says-Jeremy-Corbyn.html

    Why should Arsenal pay for the failings of others? Ultimately the government will have to cough up the money if it wants to fix the problem. If the government doesn't want to do that, they should allow the cladding to stay on existing buildings.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533
    edited March 2021
    justin124 said:

    I object to their assumption that people have access to the internet - or indeed a telephone. Happy to complete and hand to a collector in line with past practice - or to send via post.
    They've also assumed that people sent it are literate, are you offended on behalf of the illiterate as well? Are you assuming everyone who receives it is well enough to take the hard copy to a post box? They have provided those who do not have access to the internet the means to complete it.

    Your objection is therefore completely nonsensical as it isn't about people being left out, it is purely that you don't like the means by which they have asked for it to be filled out.

    The government mandates how we are supposed to carry out the census. They've provided options, for the very good reason that if it were all online there would be problems, but it was never up to us to fill it out in the manner we would prefer.

    You're preferring it to be another way is not a serious or legitimate objection - and that is the reason, since the fact people can fill out a hard copy proves they have not made the assumption you claim they have, indeed it proves the opposite, that they have assumed many, but not all, people have internet.

    Which is true. Your objection to their 'assumption' is therefore based on a faulty premise about their assumption, and a faulty assumption that the manner of census completion is a matter of personal preference.
  • Thoughts and prayers for Derek Chauvin and his legal team.

    https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1370446996197236737
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,379
    edited March 2021
  • tlg86 said:

    Why should Arsenal pay for the failings of others? Ultimately the government will have to cough up the money if it wants to fix the problem. If the government doesn't want to do that, they should allow the cladding to stay on existing buildings.
    They have the freehold, the issue isn't as much the cladding as the amount of wood used.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Can you think why in current circumstances handing a paper copy to a collector might not be a good idea?
    It can be done with care - in the same way I took delivery of beer this afternoon. Alternatively I am happy to return by post.
  • turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 18,621
    justin124 said:

    I object to their assumption that people have access to the internet - or indeed a telephone. Happy to complete and hand to a collector in line with past practice - or to send via post.
    Ironic in a post to an Internet forum...
    You’re not the only one - my mother in law was railing against it the other night. She also insists on using ‘real’ money, and not paying by card.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530

    They have the freehold, the issue isn't as much the cladding as the amount of wood used.
    Whatever, someone signed it off and that wouldn't have been the club.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,794
    kinabalu said:

    You don't see it as a public duty then.
    Not in the least no
  • TresTres Posts: 2,819
    justin124 said:

    I am not best pleased to receive a letter from the Census Office inviting me to complete the survey online - or to ring a freephone line to request a hard copy. Deeply resent the assumption that people wish to use the Internet for this. Frankly unless the hard copy is provided in the normal way, they can sing for their supper!

    Generation snowflake whinging again.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited March 2021
    RE: AstraZeneca rubbishing. Not generally one for conspiracies - but does anyone wonder if somewhere under the radar there is the influence of the other vaccine makers at play? How convenient that the cheap vaccine being offered at cost is getting such a bad press around the world...

    Just a thought ;)
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,933
    Pagan2 said:

    Not in the least no
    Although it carries a fine of up to £1k.
    So I wouldn't broadcast it too widely.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,794
    dixiedean said:

    Although it carries a fine of up to £1k.
    So I wouldn't broadcast it too widely.
    Shrugs yet to be fined and lets face it the whole thing is a joke unless you really think we have half a million jedi's
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533
    justin124 said:

    It can be done with care - in the same way I took delivery of beer this afternoon. Alternatively I am happy to return by post.
    And why should your personal preference, when alternative methods exist for other people, trump public safety considerations or require so much additional cost to no additional benefit in terms of compliance?

    I'm surprised how cross this has made me, but your objections, despite having the initial figleaf of regard for the public (albeit a nonsensical one as those unable to respond online can do so) seems to do with nothing other than arrogant assumption that you had a right to fill out the census in the way you want, and even though you acknowledge you can still do it you are still mad that they would prefer it be another way.

    Since the option has not been taken away from anyone, why are you so offended that an alternative option has been offered? Do you get mad when someone brings out a new flavour of crisps because how dare they assume you want the new flavour?

    Is the purpose of the census to gather information or to gather it in a way that makes you personally happy? So long as they get the info from us, what does it matter how?
  • tlg86 said:

    Whatever, someone signed it off and that wouldn't have been the club.
    Creasey said: “It feels pretty galling that you have individuals who are millionaires and a billionaire club driving past your front door every day while you sit there in a worthless fire trap.”

    Companies owned by Arsenal FC’s parent firm Arsenal Holdings Limited are the named freeholders of both sites. The hub and two blocks of the Queensland Road flats which contain affordable homes are leased by the housing association charity, Newlon. Highbury Square Management Company is the leaseholder for the flats built in Arsenal’s former home.

    Companies House documents show that Arsenal’s chief financial officer Stuart Wiseley and life president Ken Friar have stepped down as directors of the Highbury Square Management Committee in the last year. It is understood that this is due to a conflict of interest.

    Arsenal’s property arm, Ashburton Trading Limited, sold two blocks of the Queensland Road development to Newlon for £22.3 million in February 2010 on a long-term lease to become affordable, shared ownership homes (whereby you have a mortgage for between 25 and 75 per cent of the home’s value and pay rent on the remaining share).

    At the time, Arsenal’s then-chief executive Ivan Gazidis said: “This is another important milestone for our property business which has provided a consistent flow of income over recent years. This money has been an important factor at a time when we have been building our capability to drive commercial revenues.”

    According to Companies House documents, Gazidis was previously a director at Ashburton Trading Limited, while Arsenal life president Lord Harris of Peckham and Wiseley are current directors.

    The Queensland Road development was opened in November 2014, with then-Arsenal goalkeeper Emiliano Martinez and former director Friar attending a ribbon-cutting presentation.


    https://theathletic.com/2437217/2021/03/10/worthless-fire-traps-the-emirates-and-highbury-flats-arsenal-wont-fix/
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,349
    kle4 said:

    And why should your personal preference, when alternative methods exist for other people, trump public safety considerations or require so much additional cost to no additional benefit in terms of compliance?

    I'm surprised how cross this has made me, but your objections, despite having the initial figleaf of regard for the public (albeit a nonsensical one as those unable to respond online can do so) seems to do with nothing other than arrogant assumption that you had a right to fill out the census in the way you want, and even though you acknowledge you can still do it you are still mad that they would prefer it be another way.

    Since the option has not been taken away from anyone, why are you so offended that an alternative option has been offered? Do you get mad when someone brings out a new flavour of crisps because how dare they assume you want the new flavour?

    Is the purpose of the census to gather information or to gather it in a way that makes you personally happy? So long as they get the info from us, what does it matter how?
    He regularly posts here so clearly has no problem with using the internet. It is not clear to me what the fuss is. If someone doesn't have access to the internet, they can request the paper copy. What's the big deal?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530

    Creasey said: “It feels pretty galling that you have individuals who are millionaires and a billionaire club driving past your front door every day while you sit there in a worthless fire trap.”

    Companies owned by Arsenal FC’s parent firm Arsenal Holdings Limited are the named freeholders of both sites. The hub and two blocks of the Queensland Road flats which contain affordable homes are leased by the housing association charity, Newlon. Highbury Square Management Company is the leaseholder for the flats built in Arsenal’s former home.

    Companies House documents show that Arsenal’s chief financial officer Stuart Wiseley and life president Ken Friar have stepped down as directors of the Highbury Square Management Committee in the last year. It is understood that this is due to a conflict of interest.

    Arsenal’s property arm, Ashburton Trading Limited, sold two blocks of the Queensland Road development to Newlon for £22.3 million in February 2010 on a long-term lease to become affordable, shared ownership homes (whereby you have a mortgage for between 25 and 75 per cent of the home’s value and pay rent on the remaining share).

    At the time, Arsenal’s then-chief executive Ivan Gazidis said: “This is another important milestone for our property business which has provided a consistent flow of income over recent years. This money has been an important factor at a time when we have been building our capability to drive commercial revenues.”

    According to Companies House documents, Gazidis was previously a director at Ashburton Trading Limited, while Arsenal life president Lord Harris of Peckham and Wiseley are current directors.

    The Queensland Road development was opened in November 2014, with then-Arsenal goalkeeper Emiliano Martinez and former director Friar attending a ribbon-cutting presentation.


    https://theathletic.com/2437217/2021/03/10/worthless-fire-traps-the-emirates-and-highbury-flats-arsenal-wont-fix/
    And? The government is to blame for this mess, not Arsenal.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,775
    Pagan2 said:

    Not in the least no
    Ok. So you shouldn't use or even look at any stats that come from it then. If you do you're a raving hypocrite.

    I like doing it. It makes me feel important and a part of this country that I love.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527



    I object to their assumption that people have access to the internet - or indeed a telephone. Happy to complete and hand to a collector in line with past practice - or to send via post.

    They've also assumed that people sent it are literate, are you offended on behalf of the illiterate as well? Are you assuming everyone who receives it is well enough to take the hard copy to a post box? They have provided those who do not have access to the internet the means to complete it.

    Your objection is therefore completely nonsensical as it isn't about people being left out, it is purely that you don't like the means by which they have asked for it to be filled out.

    The government mandates how we are supposed to carry out the census. They've provided options, for the very good reason that if it were all online there would be problems, but it was never up to us to fill it out in the manner we would prefer.

    You're preferring it to be another way is not a serious or legitimate objection - and that is the reason, since the fact people can fill out a hard copy proves they have not made the assumption you claim they have, indeed it proves the opposite, that they have assumed many, but not all, people have internet.

    Which is true. Your objection to their 'assumption' is therefore based on a faulty premise about their assumption, and a faulty assumption that the manner of census completion is a matter of personal preference.
    kle4 said:

    I object to their assumption that people have access to the internet - or indeed a telephone. Happy to complete and hand to a collector in line with past practice - or to send via post.
    They've also assumed that people sent it are literate, are you offended on behalf of the illiterate as well? Are you assuming everyone who receives it is well enough to take the hard copy to a post box? They have provided those who do not have access to the internet the means to complete it.

    Your objection is therefore completely nonsensical as it isn't about people being left out, it is purely that you don't like the means by which they have asked for it to be filled out.

    The government mandates how we are supposed to carry out the census. They've provided options, for the very good reason that if it were all online there would be problems, but it was never up to us to fill it out in the manner we would prefer.

    You're preferring it to be another way is not a serious or legitimate objection - and that is the reason, since the fact people can fill out a hard copy proves they have not made the assumption you claim they have, indeed it proves the opposite, that they have assumed many, but not all, people have internet.

    Which is true. Your objection to their 'assumption' is therefore based on a faulty premise about their assumption, and a faulty assumption that the manner of census completion is a matter of personal preference.

    But the Census Office does imply that personal preference is relevant - ie complete onlne or ring up for a hard copy. Someone has mentioned that In Wales hard copies have already been sent out. I await my own copy!
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533
    Pagan2 said:

    Shrugs yet to be fined and lets face it the whole thing is a joke unless you really think we have half a million jedi's
    That's hardly the only information the emerges, and it's a voluntary question anyway, so some useful info may well be gleaned.

    I would be interested to know if they ever fine people for not completing the census, as I doubt they expect perfect compliance and as long as they get sufficient compliance for somewhat reliable public policy planning it's likely not worth chasing too hard.

    But at least a refusal to fill out the damn thing makes more sense that getting mad on behalf of other people who don't have the internet, even though those people can still fill it out.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    kinabalu said:

    Ok. So you shouldn't use or even look at any stats that come from it then. If you do you're a raving hypocrite.

    I like doing it. It makes me feel important and a part of this country that I love.
    Given that census information forms the basis of national funding to local councils, an attitude of not filling it in is a very altruistic act on behalf of the rest of the country.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,794
    kinabalu said:

    Ok. So you shouldn't use or even look at any stats that come from it then. If you do you're a raving hypocrite.

    I like doing it. It makes me feel important and a part of this country that I love.
    Well the government knows when I was born they have my birth certificate. From that they can work out my age gender and name. They have my income tax records so they know how much I earn.They don't have my death certificate so they are fairly sure I haven't died.....why exactly do I need to repeat this to them because I am not telling them anything else about me. They can fuck off unless they pay me to fill out their pointless piece of paper
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    edited March 2021
    justin124 said:





    But the Census Office does imply that personal preference is relevant - ie complete onlne or ring up for a hard copy. Someone has mentioned that In Wales hard copies have already been sent out. I await my own copy!

    What i am surprised about is the lack of public advertising i've seen on it. I'm sure we're normally bombarded with adverts on radio, tv and in public places for about a month beforehand. Possibly i've just not noticed it.
  • tlg86 said:

    And? The government is to blame for this mess, not Arsenal.
    Arsenal ordered and sold properties that included 'the presence of unsafe cladding, timber balconies or missing fire breaks designed to slow the spread of fire.'

    They started this mess.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,794
    kle4 said:

    That's hardly the only information the emerges, and it's a voluntary question anyway, so some useful info may well be gleaned.

    I would be interested to know if they ever fine people for not completing the census, as I doubt they expect perfect compliance and as long as they get sufficient compliance for somewhat reliable public policy planning it's likely not worth chasing too hard.

    But at least a refusal to fill out the damn thing makes more sense that getting mad on behalf of other people who don't have the internet, even though those people can still fill it out.
    As I replied to Kinablu the only thing I would tell them is what they already know so its pointless
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,877
    edited March 2021
    rcs1000 said:

    I suspect (and it's just a suspicion) that almost every vaccine programme will have taken money at some point from the Wellcome Trust, Horizon, regional development agencies, the UK government, and various others. That's the nature of something that was - until recently - pretty unfashionable, and where researchers will have spent their time grubbing for grants.

    But having taken (at some point, and for some portion of related research) money from Horizon is very far from Horizon having been the - or even a - major funder.
    Agree that funding is a hand-to-mouth exercise for all research institutes. Having looked into this a bit, Horizon is given major credit for funding primary research at the relevant institutes in these links for Jenner Institute, Bio-N-Tech and Janssen Laboratories/J&J, although the latter also got a lot of funding from the US government. Curevac got its original funding from the EU, but most of its primary research in recent years seems to have been funded by Bill Gates. It did get development funding from Horizon however.

    Should add the important point that it is entirely because these labs did the unfashionable research for years that they were able to step in to get the vaccines developed in record time.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495
    RobD said:

    He regularly posts here so clearly has no problem with using the internet. It is not clear to me what the fuss is. If someone doesn't have access to the internet, they can request the paper copy. What's the big deal?
    Still waiting for my copy, by the way.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530

    Arsenal ordered and sold properties that included 'the presence of unsafe cladding, timber balconies or missing fire breaks designed to slow the spread of fire.'

    They started this mess.
    Nope. The buildings would have been signed off by a safety inspector. The club is not to blame.

    As horrible as Grenfell was, the government should not have made the properties worthless without coughing up the dough to fix the problem.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,794
    alex_ said:

    Given that census information forms the basis of national funding to local councils, an attitude of not filling it in is a very altruistic act on behalf of the rest of the country.
    Oh well maybe they should I don't know look at people paying council tax or something + children in local schools. probably a better value to use . They don't need it, just civil servants with no purpose justifying their pensions
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533
    edited March 2021
    RobD said:

    He regularly posts here so clearly has no problem with using the internet. It is not clear to me what the fuss is. If someone doesn't have access to the internet, they can request the paper copy. What's the big deal?
    The reason I knew someone would raise the objection is I know various people, who use the internet regularly, who nevertheless raise objection to being asked to do things online rather than by hard copy. Some of those have temporarily accepted completing things online as a result of Covid, but others have stuck to their guns where they are able to require a hard copy of things on request. So there is a core of people, able but unwilling to do things online if asked, but also angry about even being asked.

    And if you are permitted to demand something by hard copy, well, that's your right. There are things I prefer to do hard copy too.

    So if you want it, that is fine. But when those objectors use the 'not everyone uses the internet' argument, it's disingenuous, as they are putting their objection, which has nothing to do with their own ability to use the internet, into the mouths of other people, people who have been catered for.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,794
    kle4 said:

    The reason I knew someone would raise the objection is I know various people, who use the internet regularly, who nevertheless raise objection to being asked to do things online rather than by hard copy. Some of those have temporarily accepted completing things online as a result of Covid, but others have stuck to their guns where they are able to require a hard copy of things on request. So there is a core of people, able but unwilling to do things online if asked, but also angry about even being asked.

    And if you are permitted to demand something by hard copy, well, that's your right. There are things I prefer to do hard copy too.

    So if you want it, that is fine. But when those objectors use the 'not everyone uses the internet' argument, it's disingenuous, as they are putting their objection, which has nothing to do with their own ability to use the internet, into the mouths of other people, people who have been catered for.
    Agree with that if you don't want to do it dont do it and state that dont make excuses why you won't
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    Pagan2 said:

    Well the government knows when I was born they have my birth certificate. From that they can work out my age gender and name. They have my income tax records so they know how much I earn.They don't have my death certificate so they are fairly sure I haven't died.....why exactly do I need to repeat this to them because I am not telling them anything else about me. They can fuck off unless they pay me to fill out their pointless piece of paper
    You seem a bit sensitive about this, and I wouldn't wish to censor your feelings. But there's no sense in us getting incensed in any sense by the census which they sent us despite the lack of cents for us...
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495
    alex_ said:

    What i am surprised about is the lack of public advertising i've seen on it. I'm sure we're normally bombarded with adverts on radio, tv and in public places for about a month beforehand. Possibly i've just not noticed it.
    Indeed, it was so quiet I genuinely thought it wasn’t happening.

    I heard one ad on Classic FM driving to work earlier this week. Not since, but then I normally listen to music on my phone so that’s hardly conclusive.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,794

    You seem a bit sensitive about this, and I wouldn't wish to censor your feelings. But there's no sense in us getting incensed in any sense by the census which they sent us despite the lack of cents for us...
    Pfft not incensed, I just don't really see the point in filling in paperwork to tell them things they already know so won't bother
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 98,533
    Pagan2 said:

    As I replied to Kinablu the only thing I would tell them is what they already know so its pointless
    I had heard it is considered that in future there won't be censuses for the very reason all the info will be able to be compiled from other sources. Interesting if that is the case.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495
    Pagan2 said:

    Pfft not incensed, I just don't really see the point in filling in paperwork to tell them things they already know so won't bother
    You are rather assuming there that government machinery is capable of drawing simple conclusions from disparate sources of raw data.

    Recent experience suggests this is a very bold assumption.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    edited March 2021
    Pagan2 said:

    Pfft not incensed, I just don't really see the point in filling in paperwork to tell them things they already know so won't bother
    I know, I just wanted to practise my assonance.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,794
    ydoethur said:

    Indeed, it was so quiet I genuinely thought it wasn’t happening.

    I heard one ad on Classic FM driving to work earlier this week. Not since, but then I normally listen to music on my phone so that’s hardly conclusive.
    Interestingly and a sort of side point sort of. I wouldn't even know there was a census if I hadn't read about it here. I don't watch tv, dont listen to radio and don't read newpapers
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,530
    The main value of the census is for small area statistical analysis. It's very difficult to get reliable estimates by other means.
  • alex_alex_ Posts: 7,518
    Pagan2 said:

    Pfft not incensed, I just don't really see the point in filling in paperwork to tell them things they already know so won't bother
    Well it's not things they already know. And even to the extent that information is available it's not held in one place. The whole point of a census, if filled in as intended, is it provides a complete and comprehensive picture of the population at a single point in time. It will capture people who move transiently about from place to place, who aren't easily captured by other data collection, who have little general contact with society, and will avoid duplication or omission that would otherwise inevitably occur through trying to piece together information from other information sources.

    But clearly you're not going to be convinced, so no point in trying.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 73,495
    kle4 said:

    I had heard it is considered that in future there won't be censuses for the very reason all the info will be able to be compiled from other sources. Interesting if that is the case.
    They said that in 2011 and 2001.

    Apart from anything else, the census isn’t terribly accurate. Lots of HMOs housing illegal immigrants that are apparently inhabited by one old woman and her cats, while supermarkets and pressure on local sewage systems all show there are far more people there than officially recorded.
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