The latest Brexit betting from the Smarkets exchange – politicalbetting.com
Comments
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Its just business...Theuniondivvie said:
Where does it say “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”?Charles said:
Where in the article does it say it was a charity case?Theuniondivvie said:I'm sure Brits will accept this reverse Berlin airlift with the grace and humility that have become their defining characteristics.
https://twitter.com/NMMackenzie/status/1341690159574765573?s=20
I suspect it means “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”
Lufthansa said the emergency flight will carry unspecified “perishable goods” from Frankfurt, a major European hub for food distribution that has strong connections to producers in Italy, France and Spain, as well as the Netherlands, where food is grown under glass to extend the growing season. The carrier said it’s working with multiple freight-forwarding specialists, which it declined to name.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-22/lufthansa-will-airlift-food-to-britain-skirting-port-logjam1 -
Soft left?!Casino_Royale said:
Again, Gardenwalker shows himself to be one of the most intelligent thinkers on the soft Left - and a very reflective one too.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe this.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
The 40% currently don’t trust Labour and/or Starmer - or believe they don’t share their values - and so they vote the “devil they know”.
Giving up on them means Labour will never return to government.
I’d like to see Labour attack the Tories from the cultural “right” - on patriotism, appeals to the benefits of hard work, crime, probity in public office, respect for the armed forces etc.
Labour generally speaking are still talking to the Guardian reading classes.
Well done, Sir.
Lol0 -
First wave on the left, second wave on the right.
https://twitter.com/simongerman600/status/1341413280926101508?s=211 -
My Dad was born the same day as Elvis.MarqueeMark said:
Elvis will be 86 in January.CorrectHorseBattery said:A kiss on the ring and some money in a fancy briefcase is all that is needed to get the required number of posts for PB Tory extraordinaire.
It's all a conspiracy, Elvis is really alive, moon landings were faked!
Except, on the Wirral instead of Tupelo, Mississippi.2 -
It just goes to show how little faith other countries have in the UK to look after those trapped, any idea what has been done for the beyond the charity work of the Sikhs?Theuniondivvie said:
Where does it say “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”?Charles said:
Where in the article does it say it was a charity case?Theuniondivvie said:I'm sure Brits will accept this reverse Berlin airlift with the grace and humility that have become their defining characteristics.
https://twitter.com/NMMackenzie/status/1341690159574765573?s=20
I suspect it means “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”0 -
The idea that we can stop the spread of the new variant is laughable, you would need a time machine to do that. We are now over a year into COVID-19 and people still don't seem to have grasped that by the time you have detected an infection the virus has already made a couple of further hops.Andy_Cooke said:
It’s not to prevent this strain spreading to the rest of the country.rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1341672453169442818
Because they wanted to wait until xmas eve to announce the next set of lockdowns?
It already has (and well beyond).
It’s a reaction to the combination of already high infection levels, dangerously high speed of spread, and overloading hospitals in the areas selected for Tier 4 - which is deemed to be at least partly down to the newly identified strain.
As and when other areas join them in the unfortunate combination of circumstances, they, too, will enter Tier 4. Or higher.1 -
Nah. "smart German entrepreneur" is an oxymoron. Either:Charles said:
Where in the article does it say it was a charity case?Theuniondivvie said:I'm sure Brits will accept this reverse Berlin airlift with the grace and humility that have become their defining characteristics.
https://twitter.com/NMMackenzie/status/1341690159574765573?s=20
I suspect it means “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”
- it's a charitable German selling the Brits fresh food below cost as a propaganda stunt to demonstrate the cost of No Deal, or
- it's a propaganda stunt by a British Remoaner paying far more than Tesco will let him invoice to demonstrate the cost of No Deal.
Some might say it shows the cost of No Deal.
But I say "True. Look at the people saying that, though. They must be propagandists. And you can't trust propagandists"
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That is what annoyed me about the airbridge idea. It is so fundamentally flawed. Even if we put aside many countries that people travel to regularly have very poor testing, by the time you know there is a problem is it already far too late. So the idea of turning on / off travel corridors every week is totally stupid.glw said:
The idea that we can stop the spread of the new variant is laughable, you would need a time machine to do that. We are now over a year into COVID-19 and people still don't seem to have grasped that by the time you have detected an infection the virus has already made a couple of further hops.Andy_Cooke said:
It’s not to prevent this strain spreading to the rest of the country.rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1341672453169442818
Because they wanted to wait until xmas eve to announce the next set of lockdowns?
It already has (and well beyond).
It’s a reaction to the combination of already high infection levels, dangerously high speed of spread, and overloading hospitals in the areas selected for Tier 4 - which is deemed to be at least partly down to the newly identified strain.
As and when other areas join them in the unfortunate combination of circumstances, they, too, will enter Tier 4. Or higher.0 -
Thanks.Casino_Royale said:
Again, Gardenwalker shows himself to be one of the most intelligent thinkers on the soft Left - and a very reflective one too.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe this.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
The 40% currently don’t trust Labour and/or Starmer - or believe they don’t share their values - and so they vote the “devil they know”.
Giving up on them means Labour will never return to government.
I’d like to see Labour attack the Tories from the cultural “right” - on patriotism, appeals to the benefits of hard work, crime, probity in public office, respect for the armed forces etc.
Labour generally speaking are still talking to the Guardian reading classes.
Well done, Sir.
Not bad going for a filthy Remoaner living in the People’s Republic of Hackney!
But where I disagree with you is that Sir Keir is not a genuine patriot. I believe he is, and I find him least genuine when he tries to “do woke”.0 -
To be fair most of them are idiots and controversialists rather than making a coherent argument in favour of Libertykinabalu said:
Yes there is a valid debate around values. But many - I'd say most - of those loudest on the "liberty" side repeatedly fail to grasp basic and incontrovertible truths about the nature of the virus.Charles said:
Nope - they just put a higher value on Liberty than you do.SandyRentool said:
Their judgement has been wrong from day 1. Always too late to impose restrictions. Always too quick to relax them.Charles said:
To quote Benjamin Franklin:rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1341672453169442818
Because they wanted to wait until xmas eve to announce the next set of lockdowns?
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
This government - to their credit - is reluctant to lock people into their houses as it is a substantial diminution of personal liberty.
There becomes a point at which it is unavoidable.
When that is becomes a matter of judgement.
That is "why" they haven't expanded Tier 4 beyond the current areas, but keep it under review.
National lockdown from Boxing Day is needed.
Well, really it is needed now, but that is too much to hope for.
I’m not sure there is a “right” or “wrong” here. There is a spectrum and where on the spectrum you think is right is a value judgement1 -
He isn't. He's doing it tokenistically, very sporadically, and isn't leading it wholesale and root & branch with conviction through the party and disciplining those who disagree. And the rest of your post seems to be expressing frustration with the electorate, saying they're not being fair.FF43 said:
Starmer is, I think, doing the things you suggest. The big differentiator is on honesty and competence. Johnson's supporters don't care about those. If they did, they wouldn't vote for him.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe this.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
The 40% currently don’t trust Labour and/or Starmer - or believe they don’t share their values - and so they vote the “devil they know”.
Giving up on them means Labour will never return to government.
I’d like to see Labour attack the Tories from the cultural “right” - on patriotism, appeals to the benefits of hard work, crime, probity in public office, respect for the armed forces etc.
Labour generally speaking are still talking to the Guardian reading classes.
Well, get used to it. They decide on what grounds they will vote, not you.
Kier has a shadow education secretary, Kate Green, who attacked the honour system 12 days ago (despite having an OBE herself), and threw in words about how offensive the empire was and the need to decolonise our history. And, it wasn't just a passing comment. She said she'd spent the last few weeks "looking a lot" at it - as if it was her primary focus. She wants to abolish private schools too.
English voters aren't going to vote to put someone like that in charge of their schools. Sure, a minority will dig it (Labour's core and the activist base) but she just put a millstone around Kier's neck.
And these attitudes are rife in the Labour Party. If you want to do progressive reform (and even though I like the existing honours system myself, I can see a modernising case for it) then you need to earn yourselves the right to be heard.
That means your patriotism and love for the country cannot be in doubt.2 -
Corbyn tried that in GE2017, and then went even further in GE2019. We know the result.Dura_Ace said:Starmer is lump of plywood with a high quality wig so he incapable of winning a GE on any policy platform, He is a pre 2016 politician and there is absolutely no point in Labour persisting with him. Labour need to learn from Johnson not get sniffy about his methods. They should tell everybody exactly what they want to hear and promise all sorts of mad shit. That's what politics is now and if they don't get on board the electorate is going to fuck them repeatedly in all holes.
By all means, try again - but you'll experience the same result.1 -
I agree with this. I'm a social liberal metropolitan Labour type voter but I know the average voter doesn't think the same as me. Doesn't mean they disagree with me, but their priorities are certainly different and the left needs to recognise that. I think Starmer is a step in the right direction because he doesn't seem blind to this, but a bit more effort is needed in some areas.Casino_Royale said:
Starmer needs to win soft Tories over whilst maintaining his existing electoral coalition. Otherwise, he won't win.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
It's no use saying, "b-b-but Boris is a Bad Man!", and then just shrugging your shoulders as if nothing more could be done if that doesn't work.
Hard questions need to be asked. That's going to take the existing Labour activist base to some uncomfortable places.
And that calls for very good leadership.1 -
No, that’s the point. You are saying that “x level of deaths is unacceptable”. They judged differently and/or it got beyond where they thought it was going to.SandyRentool said:
Yes, it is a judgement call. But one based on evidence and, since the spring, experience.Charles said:
Nope - they just put a higher value on Liberty than you do.SandyRentool said:
Their judgement has been wrong from day 1. Always too late to impose restrictions. Always too quick to relax them.Charles said:
To quote Benjamin Franklin:rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1341672453169442818
Because they wanted to wait until xmas eve to announce the next set of lockdowns?
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
This government - to their credit - is reluctant to lock people into their houses as it is a substantial diminution of personal liberty.
There becomes a point at which it is unavoidable.
When that is becomes a matter of judgement.
That is "why" they haven't expanded Tier 4 beyond the current areas, but keep it under review.
National lockdown from Boxing Day is needed.
Well, really it is needed now, but that is too much to hope for.
I’m not sure there is a “right” or “wrong” here. There is a spectrum and where on the spectrum you think is right is a value judgement
They have got it wrong, time after time.0 -
The AstraZeneca coronavirus vaccine could be approved by regulators just after Christmas, according to a medical scientist.
Professor Sir John Bell said he expects the vaccine - which has been developed by Oxford University researchers - to get the green light "pretty shortly".
He told the Today programme that the Medicines and Healthcare products Regulatory Agency (MHRA) has received "multiple sets of data" about the vaccine.0 -
No worries. I actually find this sort of dialogue constructive and insightful.Gardenwalker said:
Thanks.Casino_Royale said:
Again, Gardenwalker shows himself to be one of the most intelligent thinkers on the soft Left - and a very reflective one too.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe this.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
The 40% currently don’t trust Labour and/or Starmer - or believe they don’t share their values - and so they vote the “devil they know”.
Giving up on them means Labour will never return to government.
I’d like to see Labour attack the Tories from the cultural “right” - on patriotism, appeals to the benefits of hard work, crime, probity in public office, respect for the armed forces etc.
Labour generally speaking are still talking to the Guardian reading classes.
Well done, Sir.
Not bad going for a filthy Remoaner living in the People’s Republic of Hackney!
But where I disagree with you is that Sir Keir is not a genuine patriot. I believe he is, and I find him least genuine when he tries to “do woke”.
It's the mutual mudslinging that's both unproductive and exhausting, and you usually avoid that.0 -
As I posted earlier, the Poles seem on the case.nichomar said:
It just goes to show how little faith other countries have in the UK to look after those trapped, any idea what has been done for the beyond the charity work of the Sikhs?Theuniondivvie said:
Where does it say “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”?Charles said:
Where in the article does it say it was a charity case?Theuniondivvie said:I'm sure Brits will accept this reverse Berlin airlift with the grace and humility that have become their defining characteristics.
https://twitter.com/NMMackenzie/status/1341690159574765573?s=20
I suspect it means “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”
https://twitter.com/PolishEmbassyUK/status/1341446085080977408?s=200 -
Completely bonkers. My pet hunch is that the Tories get a lot of donations/lobbying from airlines and airports.FrancisUrquhart said:That is what annoyed me about the airbridge idea. It is so fundamentally flawed. Even if we put aside many countries that people travel to regularly have very poor testing, by the time you know there is a problem is it already far too late. So the idea of turning on / off travel corridors every week is totally stupid.
We should have sacrificied air travel right from the start, a bit like Australia. Not to magically keep out the virus, but simply to minimise the mixing and reintroduction. We sure as hell should not be encouraging any holidays overseas or business travel. It ought to be only essential journeys with all possible mitgations applied too.
2 -
Sorry I didn't give you some attention too, but you're just not of his calibre.Theuniondivvie said:
Soft left?!Casino_Royale said:
Again, Gardenwalker shows himself to be one of the most intelligent thinkers on the soft Left - and a very reflective one too.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe this.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
The 40% currently don’t trust Labour and/or Starmer - or believe they don’t share their values - and so they vote the “devil they know”.
Giving up on them means Labour will never return to government.
I’d like to see Labour attack the Tories from the cultural “right” - on patriotism, appeals to the benefits of hard work, crime, probity in public office, respect for the armed forces etc.
Labour generally speaking are still talking to the Guardian reading classes.
Well done, Sir.
Lol
Shame.1 -
It says Lufthansa flew a cargo plane to the U.K.Theuniondivvie said:
Where does it say “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”?Charles said:
Where in the article does it say it was a charity case?Theuniondivvie said:I'm sure Brits will accept this reverse Berlin airlift with the grace and humility that have become their defining characteristics.
https://twitter.com/NMMackenzie/status/1341690159574765573?s=20
I suspect it means “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”
The rest is assumption - it’s more likely to be a distributor or supermarket I grant you vs an entrepreneur.
But there is no evidence that it was governmental or charitable.
0 -
Oh sure. In fact I think this applies to many in the Toby Young and Lozza Fox space. Even in the more unsavoury Katie Hopkins wing of it much of the time. The motive is profile and money. If anything this makes it worse imo.Charles said:
To be fair most of them are idiots and controversialists rather than making a coherent argument in favour of Libertykinabalu said:
Yes there is a valid debate around values. But many - I'd say most - of those loudest on the "liberty" side repeatedly fail to grasp basic and incontrovertible truths about the nature of the virus.Charles said:
Nope - they just put a higher value on Liberty than you do.SandyRentool said:
Their judgement has been wrong from day 1. Always too late to impose restrictions. Always too quick to relax them.Charles said:
To quote Benjamin Franklin:rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1341672453169442818
Because they wanted to wait until xmas eve to announce the next set of lockdowns?
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
This government - to their credit - is reluctant to lock people into their houses as it is a substantial diminution of personal liberty.
There becomes a point at which it is unavoidable.
When that is becomes a matter of judgement.
That is "why" they haven't expanded Tier 4 beyond the current areas, but keep it under review.
National lockdown from Boxing Day is needed.
Well, really it is needed now, but that is too much to hope for.
I’m not sure there is a “right” or “wrong” here. There is a spectrum and where on the spectrum you think is right is a value judgement0 -
An absolute delta would be usefulwilliamglenn said:First wave on the left, second wave on the right.
https://twitter.com/simongerman600/status/1341413280926101508?s=210 -
It's a free hit because:Charles said:
To be fair most of them are idiots and controversialists rather than making a coherent argument in favour of Libertykinabalu said:
Yes there is a valid debate around values. But many - I'd say most - of those loudest on the "liberty" side repeatedly fail to grasp basic and incontrovertible truths about the nature of the virus.Charles said:
Nope - they just put a higher value on Liberty than you do.SandyRentool said:
Their judgement has been wrong from day 1. Always too late to impose restrictions. Always too quick to relax them.Charles said:
To quote Benjamin Franklin:rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1341672453169442818
Because they wanted to wait until xmas eve to announce the next set of lockdowns?
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
This government - to their credit - is reluctant to lock people into their houses as it is a substantial diminution of personal liberty.
There becomes a point at which it is unavoidable.
When that is becomes a matter of judgement.
That is "why" they haven't expanded Tier 4 beyond the current areas, but keep it under review.
National lockdown from Boxing Day is needed.
Well, really it is needed now, but that is too much to hope for.
I’m not sure there is a “right” or “wrong” here. There is a spectrum and where on the spectrum you think is right is a value judgement
1 - they are mostly shameless about how many times they are proved wrong.
2 - they mostly know that no government is going to sit back and do nothing while the health service gets overwhelmed with people dying in corridors because they can't get treated, so there is no danger of their suggestions being tested.0 -
Yer alright on the attention front.Casino_Royale said:
Sorry I didn't give you some attention too, but you're just not of his calibre.Theuniondivvie said:
Soft left?!Casino_Royale said:
Again, Gardenwalker shows himself to be one of the most intelligent thinkers on the soft Left - and a very reflective one too.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe this.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
The 40% currently don’t trust Labour and/or Starmer - or believe they don’t share their values - and so they vote the “devil they know”.
Giving up on them means Labour will never return to government.
I’d like to see Labour attack the Tories from the cultural “right” - on patriotism, appeals to the benefits of hard work, crime, probity in public office, respect for the armed forces etc.
Labour generally speaking are still talking to the Guardian reading classes.
Well done, Sir.
Lol
Shame.0 -
Some of your contributions are excellent but others make you seem a real condescending arse.Casino_Royale said:
Sorry I didn't give you some attention too, but you're just not of his calibre.Theuniondivvie said:
Soft left?!Casino_Royale said:
Again, Gardenwalker shows himself to be one of the most intelligent thinkers on the soft Left - and a very reflective one too.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe this.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
The 40% currently don’t trust Labour and/or Starmer - or believe they don’t share their values - and so they vote the “devil they know”.
Giving up on them means Labour will never return to government.
I’d like to see Labour attack the Tories from the cultural “right” - on patriotism, appeals to the benefits of hard work, crime, probity in public office, respect for the armed forces etc.
Labour generally speaking are still talking to the Guardian reading classes.
Well done, Sir.
Lol
Shame.1 -
Yes, smart Labourites on here should recognise I'm actually trying to give constructive advice on what they need to do to win - god knows why, perhaps because I think it's unhealthy to have a one-party state - because I understand the Tory coalition rather well. I know how they think.RH1992 said:
I agree with this. I'm a social liberal metropolitan Labour type voter but I know the average voter doesn't think the same as me. Doesn't mean they disagree with me, but their priorities are certainly different and the left needs to recognise that. I think Starmer is a step in the right direction because he doesn't seem blind to this, but a bit more effort is needed in some areas.Casino_Royale said:
Starmer needs to win soft Tories over whilst maintaining his existing electoral coalition. Otherwise, he won't win.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
It's no use saying, "b-b-but Boris is a Bad Man!", and then just shrugging your shoulders as if nothing more could be done if that doesn't work.
Hard questions need to be asked. That's going to take the existing Labour activist base to some uncomfortable places.
And that calls for very good leadership.
You'd think they'd be interested in that, but most are still in the fingers-in-ears and blame-the-electorate stage at the moment.
Which is a 5th defeat stage.1 -
As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.0 -
That's a fair point. If Starmer can win over/ keep most of the 60% of voters that do apparently care about competence and honesty and peel off some of those that like what Johnson says but are queasy about his fitness for office, Starmer could get over the line.Casino_Royale said:
Starmer needs to win soft Tories over whilst maintaining his existing electoral coalition. Otherwise, he won't win.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
It's no use saying, "b-b-but Boris is a Bad Man!", and then just shrugging your shoulders as if nothing more could be done if that doesn't work.
Hard questions need to be asked. That's going to take the existing Labour activist base to some uncomfortable places.
And that calls for very good leadership.2 -
I assume they have a bunch of Polish drivers stranded there and they are looking after themTheuniondivvie said:
As I posted earlier, the Poles seem on the case.nichomar said:
It just goes to show how little faith other countries have in the UK to look after those trapped, any idea what has been done for the beyond the charity work of the Sikhs?Theuniondivvie said:
Where does it say “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”?Charles said:
Where in the article does it say it was a charity case?Theuniondivvie said:I'm sure Brits will accept this reverse Berlin airlift with the grace and humility that have become their defining characteristics.
https://twitter.com/NMMackenzie/status/1341690159574765573?s=20
I suspect it means “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”
https://twitter.com/PolishEmbassyUK/status/1341446085080977408?s=200 -
felix.....FELIX!!!CorrectHorseBattery said:
I hate Johnson and I thought the comment you made was appalling.Roger said:
LOL! I see I got BJO nine 'likes' saying how disgusting this comment of mine was! 'Twas but a figure of speech. I'm wading my way through Wolf Hall where such hyperbole is commonplace. Perhaps BJO can find a Hillary Mantel site and get another 9 'Felix' likes!Roger said:
Didn't we at one time show several photos of the Labour leader to indicate Labour's lead? I think we should go back to that. I must say I can't believe Johnson is still polling around 37%. Even people with zero interest in politics would love nothing better than to see him hanging on Westminster Bridge.CorrectHorseBattery said:https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/1341537798445273088
Lab 41
Tories 37
Here we fucking go!0 -
You can reform the country in the direction you want to take it BUT the electorate *must* be convinced you love it first - and that means its history, its people (all of them), its mission and the potential for its future.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.0 -
And 7 might come back to bite him, when it is eventually revealed just how much the taxpayer was scammed out of.Charles said:
I don’t think he did 5 - it already existedPhilip_Thompson said:
Off the top of my head successes, of course he won't be personally responsible for all but the buck stops at the top:FF43 said:
If you feel like it, do detail Johnson's successes, his robust governance that avoid cronyism and waste and explain why his outright lies really aren't. I am not going to waste time on that...Philip_Thompson said:
Just ranting doesn't make it true.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
Even if others who back your politics will say it too.
1: Renegotiated the awful May deal that Barnier, the EU, Hunt, May and everyone else said could not be renegotiated. Removed the backstop that couldn't be removed.
2: Won an 80 seat majority.
3: Got Brexit done.
4: Got an incredible testing program set up doing hundreds of thousands of tests per day.
5: Got a world leading Covid strain monitoring system set up that was able to identify and alert the world to this new strain.
6: First country in the world to have vaccinations.
7: Furlough etc
Just off the top of my head. But yes keep bashing everything, it's all shit in this country isn't it? Never change.
0 -
Kernowite: New mineral found on rock mined in Cornwall
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cornwall-55396421
More importantly, I wonder if our resident bespoke miner / sex toy maker will be looking to use it in their latest works?0 -
*cough* Owen Jones *cough* Laurie Penny *cough* Ash whatshernamekinabalu said:
Oh sure. In fact I think this applies to many in the Toby Young and Lozza Fox space. Even in the more unsavoury Katie Hopkins wing of it much of the time. The motive is profile and money. If anything this makes it worse imo.Charles said:
To be fair most of them are idiots and controversialists rather than making a coherent argument in favour of Libertykinabalu said:
Yes there is a valid debate around values. But many - I'd say most - of those loudest on the "liberty" side repeatedly fail to grasp basic and incontrovertible truths about the nature of the virus.Charles said:
Nope - they just put a higher value on Liberty than you do.SandyRentool said:
Their judgement has been wrong from day 1. Always too late to impose restrictions. Always too quick to relax them.Charles said:
To quote Benjamin Franklin:rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1341672453169442818
Because they wanted to wait until xmas eve to announce the next set of lockdowns?
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
This government - to their credit - is reluctant to lock people into their houses as it is a substantial diminution of personal liberty.
There becomes a point at which it is unavoidable.
When that is becomes a matter of judgement.
That is "why" they haven't expanded Tier 4 beyond the current areas, but keep it under review.
National lockdown from Boxing Day is needed.
Well, really it is needed now, but that is too much to hope for.
I’m not sure there is a “right” or “wrong” here. There is a spectrum and where on the spectrum you think is right is a value judgement
0 -
I am not calling for Labour to “out socially conservative” the Tories. Just to attack them on issues which are currently seen as “right”.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
Remember tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime?
That, for starters.2 -
Doing some good assuming the day...Charles said:
I assume they have a bunch of Polish drivers stranded there and they are looking after themTheuniondivvie said:
As I posted earlier, the Poles seem on the case.nichomar said:
It just goes to show how little faith other countries have in the UK to look after those trapped, any idea what has been done for the beyond the charity work of the Sikhs?Theuniondivvie said:
Where does it say “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”?Charles said:
Where in the article does it say it was a charity case?Theuniondivvie said:I'm sure Brits will accept this reverse Berlin airlift with the grace and humility that have become their defining characteristics.
https://twitter.com/NMMackenzie/status/1341690159574765573?s=20
I suspect it means “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”
https://twitter.com/PolishEmbassyUK/status/1341446085080977408?s=200 -
Yes but that doesn't mean becoming more socially conservative than the Tories.Casino_Royale said:
You can reform the country in the direction you want to take it BUT the electorate *must* be convinced you love it first - and that means its history, its people (all of them), its mission and the potential for its future.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
You're right in general about Labour's patriotism problem but that doesn't mean just accepting the culture wars and fighting on the other side. Don't have the wars, that's the point I am making. Labour steps into them constantly, that's the issue.0 -
Labour is a left-wing party, the electorate know that. We all know that.
The idea they can ever be more socially conservative than the Tories is frankly ridiculous.
There are some battles they should have and some they shouldn't. They need to pick those battles more wisely, that's the start.0 -
I agree with that, I misunderstood your post then. Although I think I was rightly disagreeing with Casino_Royale's main points.Gardenwalker said:
I am not calling for Labour to “out socially conservative” the Tories. Just to attack them on issues which are currently seen as “right”.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
Remember tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime?
That, for starters.
I apologise for misunderstanding.0 -
A man has been arrested for obstructing a highway in Dover, according to Kent Police.
I think it should be made clear anybody who gets arrested, back of the queue for their test.0 -
-
HOUSE!!!Philip_Thompson said:
Off the top of my head successes, of course he won't be personally responsible for all but the buck stops at the top:FF43 said:
If you feel like it, do detail Johnson's successes, his robust governance that avoid cronyism and waste and explain why his outright lies really aren't. I am not going to waste time on that...Philip_Thompson said:
Just ranting doesn't make it true.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
Even if others who back your politics will say it too.
1: Renegotiated the awful May deal that Barnier, the EU, Hunt, May and everyone else said could not be renegotiated. Removed the backstop that couldn't be removed.
2: Won an 80 seat majority.
3: Got Brexit done.
4: Got an incredible testing program set up doing hundreds of thousands of tests per day.
5: Got a world leading Covid strain monitoring system set up that was able to identify and alert the world to this new strain.
6: First country in the world to have vaccinations.
7: Furlough etc
Just off the top of my head. But yes keep bashing everything, it's all shit in this country isn't it? Never change.
1 -
I completely agree, there are nutters and morons on both sides, Labour needs to stop getting into these stupid wars.Charles said:
*cough* Owen Jones *cough* Laurie Penny *cough* Ash whatshernamekinabalu said:
Oh sure. In fact I think this applies to many in the Toby Young and Lozza Fox space. Even in the more unsavoury Katie Hopkins wing of it much of the time. The motive is profile and money. If anything this makes it worse imo.Charles said:
To be fair most of them are idiots and controversialists rather than making a coherent argument in favour of Libertykinabalu said:
Yes there is a valid debate around values. But many - I'd say most - of those loudest on the "liberty" side repeatedly fail to grasp basic and incontrovertible truths about the nature of the virus.Charles said:
Nope - they just put a higher value on Liberty than you do.SandyRentool said:
Their judgement has been wrong from day 1. Always too late to impose restrictions. Always too quick to relax them.Charles said:
To quote Benjamin Franklin:rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1341672453169442818
Because they wanted to wait until xmas eve to announce the next set of lockdowns?
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
This government - to their credit - is reluctant to lock people into their houses as it is a substantial diminution of personal liberty.
There becomes a point at which it is unavoidable.
When that is becomes a matter of judgement.
That is "why" they haven't expanded Tier 4 beyond the current areas, but keep it under review.
National lockdown from Boxing Day is needed.
Well, really it is needed now, but that is too much to hope for.
I’m not sure there is a “right” or “wrong” here. There is a spectrum and where on the spectrum you think is right is a value judgement0 -
Nawh. Queens speech is going live this year.rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1341672453169442818
Because they wanted to wait until xmas eve to announce the next set of lockdowns?
“My government has some bad news.....”
1 -
I met her once, in 2002 at a constituency association do in Eastleigh.Cyclefree said:I had not realised that Lady Tebbitt had died. There is a very moving obituary of her in the Times - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/lady-tebbit-msdfzft6n.
Whatever one might think of Norman Tebbitt's politics, he deserves admiration for the way he cared for his wife. Makes you ponder on what "In sickness and in health until death do us part" means for some, how precious our lives are and how a moment can change everything.
It was after dinner. Thatcher was there too with Denis. I had ten minutes chatting with her in the drawing room of a large hotel whilst Norman was chatting to a local councillor.
She was a sharp as a whistle. And, yes, she absolutely detested any sense of self-pity so I just ignored everything about the wheelchair and disability. She was perfectly charming, and was more interested in my views than anyone else there I'd spoken to that night.0 -
Ok lads, some French pescatarian homo-eroticism for those who like that sort of thing.
https://twitter.com/youngvulgarian/status/1341707846497480705?s=20
1 -
And whilst Starmer has a way to go there, and he will always be a lefty lawyer, the progress in six months or so is significant.FF43 said:
That's a fair point. If Starmer can win over/ keep most of the 60% of voters that do apparently care about competence and honesty and peel off some of those that like what Johnson says but are queasy about his fitness for office, Starmer could get over the line.Casino_Royale said:
Starmer needs to win soft Tories over whilst maintaining his existing electoral coalition. Otherwise, he won't win.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
It's no use saying, "b-b-but Boris is a Bad Man!", and then just shrugging your shoulders as if nothing more could be done if that doesn't work.
Hard questions need to be asked. That's going to take the existing Labour activist base to some uncomfortable places.
And that calls for very good leadership.
Not yet sufficient, sure, and the next bit will be harder. But so far, he has done the necessary, and kept out of the unnecessary.
And the event which will probably determine the 2024 election one way or another is about to happen, and none of us really know how it will go.0 -
Yes, the first few tweets are good, and then it descends into Daily Mail bashing and partisanship. And then she calls her own Dad an 'asshole', which is rather nasty really.Gardenwalker said:
The broader point is that many in present-day Labour would just call him "a racist" and let him know he deserves everything that's coming to him, rather than providing a thread of continuity and reassurance about change that he can feel a part of.0 -
Did they storm the Elysée?FrancisUrquhart said:A man has been arrested for obstructing a highway in Dover, according to Kent Police.
0 -
No-one is saying that. The Labour Governments modernised the country after their three convincing election wins in 1945, 1966, and 1997 because people trusted their love for it enough to build a Better Tomorrow.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes but that doesn't mean becoming more socially conservative than the Tories.Casino_Royale said:
You can reform the country in the direction you want to take it BUT the electorate *must* be convinced you love it first - and that means its history, its people (all of them), its mission and the potential for its future.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
You're right in general about Labour's patriotism problem but that doesn't mean just accepting the culture wars and fighting on the other side. Don't have the wars, that's the point I am making. Labour steps into them constantly, that's the issue.
I wouldn't call any of them socially conservative. 1945 a tad maybe, but those were different times.0 -
Yes that was good.Gardenwalker said:
I am not calling for Labour to “out socially conservative” the Tories. Just to attack them on issues which are currently seen as “right”.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
Remember tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime?
That, for starters.
However new Labour in government had some bad habits .
Such as announcing half baked plans every week, like the police marching people down to cash points for instant justice on minor breaches of the law.
I am sure SkS is more considered in his views.0 -
Ok, but you didn't engage with the values point there. The fitness for office thing isn't enough.FF43 said:
That's a fair point. If Starmer can win over/ keep most of the 60% of voters that do apparently care about competence and honesty and peel off some of those that like what Johnson says but are queasy about his fitness for office, Starmer could get over the line.Casino_Royale said:
Starmer needs to win soft Tories over whilst maintaining his existing electoral coalition. Otherwise, he won't win.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
It's no use saying, "b-b-but Boris is a Bad Man!", and then just shrugging your shoulders as if nothing more could be done if that doesn't work.
Hard questions need to be asked. That's going to take the existing Labour activist base to some uncomfortable places.
And that calls for very good leadership.0 -
I agree, she diagnoses the issue but then doesn’t realise she’s actually still part of the problem.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, the first few tweets are good, and then it descends into Daily Mail bashing and partisanship. And then she calls her own Dad an 'asshole', which is rather nasty really.Gardenwalker said:
The broader point is that many in present-day Labour would just call him "a racist" and let him know he deserves everything that's coming to him, rather than providing a thread of continuity and reassurance about change that he can feel a part of.
(Although her father may well be a racist “asshole”, we don’t know.)1 -
Celebrity cook Nigella Lawson has said that "for the first time ever" she will not cook a Christmas turkey this year.
Going to have a micra-wavey ready meal instead?0 -
Can I ask a question Casino_Royale, if somebody says something genuinely racist - not in this case, I don't know the context of the Twitter discussion - do you think left-wing people should just not call it out?Casino_Royale said:
Yes, the first few tweets are good, and then it descends into Daily Mail bashing and partisanship. And then she calls her own Dad an 'asshole', which is rather nasty really.Gardenwalker said:
The broader point is that many in present-day Labour would just call him "a racist" and let him know he deserves everything that's coming to him, rather than providing a thread of continuity and reassurance about change that he can feel a part of.
I am trying to understand what you think the solution is, because it sounds an awful lot like you have the view that lefties should just accept certain things and deal with it.
I have this feeling a few years ago you'd be saying exactly the same thing about gay rights.
It was because Labour chose which battles to fight carefully that was able to get elected and implement properly socially progressive policy. Perhaps I'm wrong but it sounds like you think today, that Labour shouldn't try and do anything progressive, please tell me where I am wrong.0 -
Agreed. Some things to bear in mind:-Casino_Royale said:
Again, Gardenwalker shows himself to be one of the most intelligent thinkers on the soft Left - and a very reflective one too.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe this.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
The 40% currently don’t trust Labour and/or Starmer - or believe they don’t share their values - and so they vote the “devil they know”.
Giving up on them means Labour will never return to government.
I’d like to see Labour attack the Tories from the cultural “right” - on patriotism, appeals to the benefits of hard work, crime, probity in public office, respect for the armed forces etc.
Labour generally speaking are still talking to the Guardian reading classes.
Well done, Sir.
1. Most people don't share that visceral dislike for Johnson that so many on this blog do.
2. Most people think that governments are a bit crap, so don't get very excited by the revelation that the government is a bit crap.
3. People are loyal to values, but not to parties
4. They will stick to a party if they think it shares its values, even if they don't think much of its leaders, but switch away rapidly if they cease to think so (look at the way that support for the Conservatives, Brexit Party, and UKIP oscillated).
5. Much of the 40% is winnable for Labour, so long as they think Labour shares their values.4 -
I think the points raised are probably right in the general sense and I agree with most of them but I've said that many times before.
I'm just not sure there's much new ground being covered here, I think @Gardenwalker has the most interesting points to say, as he comes from the same persuasion as me.
Labour needs introspection but the point is that Keir might just be the start of that. At worst he puts Labour in the right direction, if he loses then that sucks but I do think Labour will be better off than when he started.1 -
Yeh, well that’s why I vote LD.Yorkcity said:
Yes that was good.Gardenwalker said:
I am not calling for Labour to “out socially conservative” the Tories. Just to attack them on issues which are currently seen as “right”.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
Remember tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime?
That, for starters.
However new Labour in government had some bad habits .
Such as announcing half baked plans every week, like the police marching people down to cash points for instant justice on minor breaches of the law.
I am sure SkS is more considered in his views.
However, I want to see this government defeated and it is essential that Labour is seen as electable again.1 -
Regarding Tescos putting buying caps on various items. I went to Tescos Bursledon yesterday evening at 630. It was very quiet for 3 days before Christmas. Full shelves of everything. Loads of cashiers sitting waiting. Absolutely no sign of panic buying or shortages at all.0
-
I often wondered whether it was what happened to his wife that made him so bitter or whether he had been like that before. What he did for his wife is what people do. I had a huge admiration for her in that she as far as possible carried on as normal and was never seen complaining about her lot.Cyclefree said:I had not realised that Lady Tebbitt had died. There is a very moving obituary of her in the Times - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/register/lady-tebbit-msdfzft6n.
Whatever one might think of Norman Tebbitt's politics, he deserves admiration for the way he cared for his wife. Makes you ponder on what "In sickness and in health until death do us part" means for some, how precious our lives are and how a moment can change everything.0 -
Calling it out doesn't mean calling your own Dad an 'asshole', or being seen to publicly denounce them. And, if you do it in private, insulting or shouting at them doesn't do it either - all it will serve to do is alienate and distance them.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Can I ask a question Casino_Royale, if somebody says something genuinely racist - not in this case, I don't know the context of the Twitter discussion - do you think left-wing people should just not call it out?Casino_Royale said:
Yes, the first few tweets are good, and then it descends into Daily Mail bashing and partisanship. And then she calls her own Dad an 'asshole', which is rather nasty really.Gardenwalker said:
The broader point is that many in present-day Labour would just call him "a racist" and let him know he deserves everything that's coming to him, rather than providing a thread of continuity and reassurance about change that he can feel a part of.
I am trying to understand what you think the solution is, because it sounds an awful lot like you have the view that lefties should just accept certain things and deal with it.
I have this feeling a few years ago you'd be saying exactly the same thing about gay rights.
It was because Labour chose which battles to fight carefully that was able to get elected and implement properly socially progressive policy. Perhaps I'm wrong but it sounds like you think today, that Labour shouldn't try and do anything progressive, please tell me where I am wrong.
You have to explain why you disagree, and how times have changed - and open their eyes.
We will all be old one-day, and who knows which of our views will seem very old-fashioned and out-of-date then to our grandchildren.
But, we will still be people, and worthy of basic respect.2 -
This.Sean_F said:
Agreed. Some things to bear in mind:-Casino_Royale said:
Again, Gardenwalker shows himself to be one of the most intelligent thinkers on the soft Left - and a very reflective one too.Gardenwalker said:
I don’t believe this.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
The 40% currently don’t trust Labour and/or Starmer - or believe they don’t share their values - and so they vote the “devil they know”.
Giving up on them means Labour will never return to government.
I’d like to see Labour attack the Tories from the cultural “right” - on patriotism, appeals to the benefits of hard work, crime, probity in public office, respect for the armed forces etc.
Labour generally speaking are still talking to the Guardian reading classes.
Well done, Sir.
1. Most people don't share that visceral dislike for Johnson that so many on this blog do.
2. Most people think that governments are a bit crap, so don't get very excited by the revelation that the government is a bit crap.
3. People are loyal to values, but not to parties
4. They will stick to a party if they think it shares its values, even if they don't think much of its leaders, but switch away rapidly if they cease to think so (look at the way that support for the Conservatives, Brexit Party, and UKIP oscillated).
5. Much of the 40% is winnable for Labour, so long as they think Labour shares their values.0 -
I didn't say we should call their Dad an asshole or whatever else, I think the rest of your post is reasonable. That does not mean accepting the narrative however, not in every case.Casino_Royale said:
Calling it out doesn't mean calling your own Dad an 'asshole', or being seen to publicly denounce them. And, if you do it in private, insulting or shouting at them doesn't do it either - all it will serve to do is alienate and distance them.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Can I ask a question Casino_Royale, if somebody says something genuinely racist - not in this case, I don't know the context of the Twitter discussion - do you think left-wing people should just not call it out?Casino_Royale said:
Yes, the first few tweets are good, and then it descends into Daily Mail bashing and partisanship. And then she calls her own Dad an 'asshole', which is rather nasty really.Gardenwalker said:
The broader point is that many in present-day Labour would just call him "a racist" and let him know he deserves everything that's coming to him, rather than providing a thread of continuity and reassurance about change that he can feel a part of.
I am trying to understand what you think the solution is, because it sounds an awful lot like you have the view that lefties should just accept certain things and deal with it.
I have this feeling a few years ago you'd be saying exactly the same thing about gay rights.
It was because Labour chose which battles to fight carefully that was able to get elected and implement properly socially progressive policy. Perhaps I'm wrong but it sounds like you think today, that Labour shouldn't try and do anything progressive, please tell me where I am wrong.
You have to explain why you disagree, and how times have changed - and open their eyes.
We will all be old one-day, and who knows which of our views will seem very old-fashioned and out-of-date then to our grandchildren.
But, we will still be people, and worthy of basic respect.0 -
I can't fault any of that - and it's why the Tories focus so much on "cancel" culture as it's the only bit of conservativism they have left.Gardenwalker said:2 -
I think in general I agree with about 80% of what Casino_Royale has said and mostly all of what @Gardenwalker has said. Good posts.0
-
Weren’t you an enthusiastic Corbynista?CorrectHorseBattery said:I think the points raised are probably right in the general sense and I agree with most of them but I've said that many times before.
I'm just not sure there's much new ground being covered here, I think @Gardenwalker has the most interesting points to say, as he comes from the same persuasion as me.
Labour needs introspection but the point is that Keir might just be the start of that. At worst he puts Labour in the right direction, if he loses then that sucks but I do think Labour will be better off than when he started.
Sorry I have got that wrong, but if so - we are not of the same persuasion.
I am an economically left centrist, but with a strong interest in civil liberties. I am also believe in the nation state.3 -
The story looks like somebody changing arrangements to cope with the restrictions (which themselves are logical). There was another one on the news yesterday about a business which had switched to a "non accompanied" model, where they use different drivers each end.Charles said:
It says Lufthansa flew a cargo plane to the U.K.Theuniondivvie said:
Where does it say “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”?Charles said:
Where in the article does it say it was a charity case?Theuniondivvie said:I'm sure Brits will accept this reverse Berlin airlift with the grace and humility that have become their defining characteristics.
https://twitter.com/NMMackenzie/status/1341690159574765573?s=20
I suspect it means “smart German entrepreneur saw opportunity and paid Lufthansa to fly 80 tonnes of fresh food to the U.K.”
The rest is assumption - it’s more likely to be a distributor or supermarket I grant you vs an entrepreneur.
But there is no evidence that it was governmental or charitable.
The tweeter is a bog standard cybernat troll doing whatever to have a pop. The "charity" stuff is just the usual guff they add.1 -
And Andrew should know.rottenborough said:0 -
We are not of the same persuasion.Gardenwalker said:
Weren’t you an enthusiastic Corbynista?CorrectHorseBattery said:I think the points raised are probably right in the general sense and I agree with most of them but I've said that many times before.
I'm just not sure there's much new ground being covered here, I think @Gardenwalker has the most interesting points to say, as he comes from the same persuasion as me.
Labour needs introspection but the point is that Keir might just be the start of that. At worst he puts Labour in the right direction, if he loses then that sucks but I do think Labour will be better off than when he started.
Sorry I have got that wrong, but if so - we are not of the same persuasion.
I am an economically left centrist, but with a strong interest in civil liberties. I am also believe in the nation state.
I'm a social democrat, I am in line with the 2017 Labour manifesto but 2019 was a bit too leftie even for me.
I went down the Corbyn rabbit hole a bit towards the end, not proud of that.0 -
I don't reject this narrative entirely but there is great risk in Labour going all out to win back the red wall and similar seats. Their metro base is bigger and growable and must not be jeopardized. Also the party needs to retain its integrity. If its core values seem to be at odds with certain voters who used to vote Labour they should try to convince those voters to adjust their thinking, in particular explain the party's priorities in language designed to appeal to their economic self-interest, but if this does not work, ok, shame, vote Tory or Farage then.Casino_Royale said:
Starmer needs to win soft Tories over whilst maintaining his existing electoral coalition. Otherwise, he won't win.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
It's no use saying, "b-b-but Boris is a Bad Man!", and then just shrugging your shoulders as if nothing more could be done if that doesn't work.
Hard questions need to be asked. That's going to take the existing Labour activist base to some uncomfortable places.
And that calls for very good leadership.
Labour has no god given right to the votes of the older white working class in small town post industrial and coastal England. Likewise nobody has the god given right to have Labour adopt their values. I do not want Keir Starmer banging on about patriotism and going soft on the fight for racial and gender equality. I don't want him to be scared of talking about a more egalitarian education system. I want him doing all of that and at the same time making the case that a Labour government will materially benefit the whole of the working class, regardless of where they live or what they look like.
This is who we are. These are the things that are important to us. This is what we plan to do. If you like the sound of that, vote for us.0 -
There's the reason the poll gap is still so narrow, older voters are still voting Tory by a huge margin.0
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I think that depends on Sir Keir getting a convincing grip on his party and meeting the EHRC require. eg Are the new independent disciplinary processes in place and working yet?eek said:
I can't fault any of that - and it's why the Tories focus so much on "cancel" culture as it's the only bit of conservativism they have left.Gardenwalker said:
When we come out of all the COVID stuff in a few months, someone will be going back with a checklist to see.
0 -
I'm going to his birthday partyMarqueeMark said:
Elvis will be 86 in January.CorrectHorseBattery said:A kiss on the ring and some money in a fancy briefcase is all that is needed to get the required number of posts for PB Tory extraordinaire.
It's all a conspiracy, Elvis is really alive, moon landings were faked!0 -
Think it's in place by 2021 Conference, might have got that wrongMattW said:
I think that depends on Sir Keir getting a convincing grip on his party and meeting the EHRC require. eg Are the new independent disciplinary processes in place and working yet?eek said:
I can't fault any of that - and it's why the Tories focus so much on "cancel" culture as it's the only bit of conservativism they have left.Gardenwalker said:
When we come out of all the COVID stuff in a few months, someone will be going back with a checklist to see.0 -
Also fair enough. I accept I am not best placed to comment on that (doesn't stop me of course!) Johnson says things to people they clearly like to hear, while Starmer is reaching out to the same group with less success. Not no success, but definitely less success.Casino_Royale said:
Ok, but you didn't engage with the values point there. The fitness for office thing isn't enough.FF43 said:
That's a fair point. If Starmer can win over/ keep most of the 60% of voters that do apparently care about competence and honesty and peel off some of those that like what Johnson says but are queasy about his fitness for office, Starmer could get over the line.Casino_Royale said:
Starmer needs to win soft Tories over whilst maintaining his existing electoral coalition. Otherwise, he won't win.FF43 said:FPT
Johnson is clearly the most dishonest, incompetent, corrupt and unserious prime minister of recent times. He doesn't bother to hide it. If any of those things mattered to the 40% of the people that intend to vote for Johnson, Starmer would win, because he is none of those things.
Given that, there is nothing Starmer can do to win those people over. Johnson will always outdo him on incompetence, dishonesty and corruption.
It's no use saying, "b-b-but Boris is a Bad Man!", and then just shrugging your shoulders as if nothing more could be done if that doesn't work.
Hard questions need to be asked. That's going to take the existing Labour activist base to some uncomfortable places.
And that calls for very good leadership.
Johnson is an out and out charlatan. He doesn't fool me for a second, so I have difficulty disengaging the message, which may be a reasonable one, from the dishonest way in which it is delivered. Can Starmer achieve the same results as Johnson, but without the dishonesty? I don't know. So far, not particularly encouraging to me.0 -
But read mine too.CorrectHorseBattery said:I think in general I agree with about 80% of what Casino_Royale has said and mostly all of what @Gardenwalker has said. Good posts.
0 -
Reclaim for polish VAT submitted, one of those little 'eggs' that may have to be broken in the future to enter @Phil_Thompson brave new trading omelette.0
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When she calls her father names, she says far more about herself than about her father. It would be interesting to know what her father really thinks, than to see his views reported by a child who plainly dislikes him.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, the first few tweets are good, and then it descends into Daily Mail bashing and partisanship. And then she calls her own Dad an 'asshole', which is rather nasty really.Gardenwalker said:
The broader point is that many in present-day Labour would just call him "a racist" and let him know he deserves everything that's coming to him, rather than providing a thread of continuity and reassurance about change that he can feel a part of.2 -
I certainly agree with that.Sean_F said:
When she calls her father names, she says far more about herself than about her father. It would be interesting to know what her father really thinks, than to see his views reported by a child who plainly dislikes him.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, the first few tweets are good, and then it descends into Daily Mail bashing and partisanship. And then she calls her own Dad an 'asshole', which is rather nasty really.Gardenwalker said:
The broader point is that many in present-day Labour would just call him "a racist" and let him know he deserves everything that's coming to him, rather than providing a thread of continuity and reassurance about change that he can feel a part of.2 -
My theory is that even if the Tories aren’t doing a good job for these people whether it be on UC or Covid, they have very little faith that a Labour led government would make their lives better. Therefore, vote on the basis that the Tories are closer to you in terms of cultural valuesGardenwalker said:0 -
On the patriotism thing - it feels frankly like Labour should have a lot of fertile ground here, particularly if they are willing to throw some muck.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes but that doesn't mean becoming more socially conservative than the Tories.Casino_Royale said:
You can reform the country in the direction you want to take it BUT the electorate *must* be convinced you love it first - and that means its history, its people (all of them), its mission and the potential for its future.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
You're right in general about Labour's patriotism problem but that doesn't mean just accepting the culture wars and fighting on the other side. Don't have the wars, that's the point I am making. Labour steps into them constantly, that's the issue.
I mean it shouldn't be impossible to make the case that people who give their mates valuable govt contracts are not actually patriots but are instead stealing from the state?1 -
https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1341685206336593920
No Deal from Johnson.
Over a £1m or so of fish.
Only this government could come up with a stunt like this.
0 -
Isn't the swing in the Red Wall higher than the rest of the country though? Some people certainly are being convinced, not enough. But it's not like Labour isn't making any progress.tlg86 said:
My theory is that even if the Tories aren’t doing a good job for these people whether it be on UC or Covid, they have very little faith that a Labour led government would make their lives better.Gardenwalker said:0 -
The cancel culture megawhine is also a great attention spinner and can be monetised (I believe Burchill gets to keep the advance for her latest tedious rant, plus lots of lovely publicity as fellow grifters run to her defence). The curious proposal that these people are being silenced is one that has launched a thousand paid for articles.eek said:
I can't fault any of that - and it's why the Tories focus so much on "cancel" culture as it's the only bit of conservativism they have left.Gardenwalker said:
Specimen:
https://twitter.com/TheCriticMag/status/1341670635949453312?s=201 -
I've always been of the view that public ownership of the railways was a good patriotic policy if sold right.rkrkrk said:
On the patriotism thing - it feels frankly like Labour should have a lot of fertile ground here, particularly if they are willing to throw some muck.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes but that doesn't mean becoming more socially conservative than the Tories.Casino_Royale said:
You can reform the country in the direction you want to take it BUT the electorate *must* be convinced you love it first - and that means its history, its people (all of them), its mission and the potential for its future.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
You're right in general about Labour's patriotism problem but that doesn't mean just accepting the culture wars and fighting on the other side. Don't have the wars, that's the point I am making. Labour steps into them constantly, that's the issue.
I mean it shouldn't be impossible to make the case that people who give their mates valuable govt contracts are not actually patriots but are instead stealing from the state?
"Foreign Governments running our railways, let's run them ourselves, believe in Britain"0 -
Grumpy because my ex spent 50 minutes on the phone begging, conniving and any other devious method she could to find a way for me to give her half a bag to pay her bills. Got sent away with me giving the boy (man really, nearly 20) £50 to replace the cheque (how quaint) that my parents sent him for Christmas.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Some people need to lighten up I reckon, get the booze on!FrancisUrquhart said:A lot of grumpy people on here this morning...its Christmas and you aren't stuck in the queue for the ferry at Dover...
I know I am about to buy a former bank. But I am not a bank. I am not responsible for paying her household finances, and as for the cost of keeping him that was what the £5k was to fund his gap year which she's already had and it would seem spent.0 -
EXACTLY.rkrkrk said:
On the patriotism thing - it feels frankly like Labour should have a lot of fertile ground here, particularly if they are willing to throw some muck.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes but that doesn't mean becoming more socially conservative than the Tories.Casino_Royale said:
You can reform the country in the direction you want to take it BUT the electorate *must* be convinced you love it first - and that means its history, its people (all of them), its mission and the potential for its future.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
You're right in general about Labour's patriotism problem but that doesn't mean just accepting the culture wars and fighting on the other side. Don't have the wars, that's the point I am making. Labour steps into them constantly, that's the issue.
I mean it shouldn't be impossible to make the case that people who give their mates valuable govt contracts are not actually patriots but are instead stealing from the state?
See also, damaging effect of Boris on Scottish nationalist sentiment.0 -
Sorry to hear about this mate. I think that sounds like outrageous behaviour from your ex. I hope I am not speaking out of turn; it's the boy she is failing at the end of the day.RochdalePioneers said:
Grumpy because my ex spent 50 minutes on the phone begging, conniving and any other devious method she could to find a way for me to give her half a bag to pay her bills. Got sent away with me giving the boy (man really, nearly 20) £50 to replace the cheque (how quaint) that my parents sent him for Christmas.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Some people need to lighten up I reckon, get the booze on!FrancisUrquhart said:A lot of grumpy people on here this morning...its Christmas and you aren't stuck in the queue for the ferry at Dover...
I know I am about to buy a former bank. But I am not a bank. I am not responsible for paying her household finances, and as for the cost of keeping him that was what the £5k was to fund his gap year which she's already had and it would seem spent.
I hope otherwise you are staying safe and happy otherwise this Christmas, sending you and family best wishes.1 -
Damaging?Gardenwalker said:
EXACTLY.rkrkrk said:
On the patriotism thing - it feels frankly like Labour should have a lot of fertile ground here, particularly if they are willing to throw some muck.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes but that doesn't mean becoming more socially conservative than the Tories.Casino_Royale said:
You can reform the country in the direction you want to take it BUT the electorate *must* be convinced you love it first - and that means its history, its people (all of them), its mission and the potential for its future.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
You're right in general about Labour's patriotism problem but that doesn't mean just accepting the culture wars and fighting on the other side. Don't have the wars, that's the point I am making. Labour steps into them constantly, that's the issue.
I mean it shouldn't be impossible to make the case that people who give their mates valuable govt contracts are not actually patriots but are instead stealing from the state?
See also, damaging effect of Boris on Scottish nationalist sentiment.0 -
https://twitter.com/PaulEmbery/status/1341683151354146818
Can we all agree this comment is disgraceful? This is the worst part of the culture war.0 -
Fishing would be more relevant if we had a far smaller population - as Iceland does relative to the size of waters.rottenborough said:https://twitter.com/adamparsons/status/1341685206336593920
No Deal from Johnson.
Over a £1m or so of fish.
Only this government could come up with a stunt like this.0 -
Yes, damaging to Unionists.Theuniondivvie said:
Damaging?Gardenwalker said:
EXACTLY.rkrkrk said:
On the patriotism thing - it feels frankly like Labour should have a lot of fertile ground here, particularly if they are willing to throw some muck.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes but that doesn't mean becoming more socially conservative than the Tories.Casino_Royale said:
You can reform the country in the direction you want to take it BUT the electorate *must* be convinced you love it first - and that means its history, its people (all of them), its mission and the potential for its future.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
You're right in general about Labour's patriotism problem but that doesn't mean just accepting the culture wars and fighting on the other side. Don't have the wars, that's the point I am making. Labour steps into them constantly, that's the issue.
I mean it shouldn't be impossible to make the case that people who give their mates valuable govt contracts are not actually patriots but are instead stealing from the state?
See also, damaging effect of Boris on Scottish nationalist sentiment.0 -
CorrectHorseBattery said:
I think in general I agree with about 80% of what Casino_Royale has said and mostly all of what @Gardenwalker has said. Good posts.
That's very interestng and sounds about right. Labour's dilemma then is how to attract the racist homophobic vote without actively supporting racism and homophobia. Michelle Obama answers that well in her book. You don't. You just hope that education and example will move the next generation to see the world more generously.Gardenwalker said:0 -
Very interesting graphs and data (though excess deaths are not measured at the same time point & don't always include the second wave)CarlottaVance said:
There is a substantial seasonal effect in the data. Look at the lower panel of the first figure -- Europe in our winter, Latin America in their winter. I'd really fear June-August in Latin America in 2021 because my guess is they won't be vaccinated by then.
The huge Second Wave engulfing Europe is a grotesque testimony to the complacency of European politicians. The EU as a whole -- which is one of the main scientific powerhouses of the world -- has really screwed up.
You have to be slightly careful with the excess death figure as e.g., the Italian or Slovene ones miss most of the second wave, but really ... it looks like a catastrophic almost pan-European failure.
I'd only be excepting the leaders of Norway, Finland & Denmark on this data0 -
Yes. Let's not get sucked into the culture war swamp - little chance of that with Starmer imo - but I really don't think we need to pander to attitudes we find outdated and objectionable or (worse) switch sides on these "values" issues.CorrectHorseBattery said:Labour is a left-wing party, the electorate know that. We all know that.
The idea they can ever be more socially conservative than the Tories is frankly ridiculous.
There are some battles they should have and some they shouldn't. They need to pick those battles more wisely, that's the start.
Like, ok, we stop obsessing about trans rights. But we don't start chuckling at the tedious anti-trans jokes. And we definitely don't start making them.0 -
She only addresses one aspect - the elderly died in the wool working class whom she thinks are racist.Sean_F said:
When she calls her father names, she says far more about herself than about her father. It would be interesting to know what her father really thinks, than to see his views reported by a child who plainly dislikes him.Casino_Royale said:
Yes, the first few tweets are good, and then it descends into Daily Mail bashing and partisanship. And then she calls her own Dad an 'asshole', which is rather nasty really.Gardenwalker said:
The broader point is that many in present-day Labour would just call him "a racist" and let him know he deserves everything that's coming to him, rather than providing a thread of continuity and reassurance about change that he can feel a part of.
Not that simple - one of the more interesting racist fora in recent years was the NUS, where they denied Jewish students the right to have a forum as an 'oppressed minority' (in NUS argot), whilst the idea is that groups can 'define therir own oppression'. Starmer has to deal with the issue that that is where a lot of his senior activists came from, including current MPs.
In this area, there is no shortage of young (say 20-40 age) working class people arguing "we voted as a country to leave; why has this not happened". Lab need their votes.1 -
You think "look at nasty Boris driving the Scots away" would be a winning message in England?Gardenwalker said:
Yes, damaging to Unionists.Theuniondivvie said:
Damaging?Gardenwalker said:
EXACTLY.rkrkrk said:
On the patriotism thing - it feels frankly like Labour should have a lot of fertile ground here, particularly if they are willing to throw some muck.CorrectHorseBattery said:
Yes but that doesn't mean becoming more socially conservative than the Tories.Casino_Royale said:
You can reform the country in the direction you want to take it BUT the electorate *must* be convinced you love it first - and that means its history, its people (all of them), its mission and the potential for its future.CorrectHorseBattery said:As for the crux of Casino_Royale's point, I've often spoken about that myself. I don't agree that the solution is to out social conservative Labour (which Labour can't ever do anyway), the solution is to not get involved in culture wars.
Blair was very good on this topic.
You're right in general about Labour's patriotism problem but that doesn't mean just accepting the culture wars and fighting on the other side. Don't have the wars, that's the point I am making. Labour steps into them constantly, that's the issue.
I mean it shouldn't be impossible to make the case that people who give their mates valuable govt contracts are not actually patriots but are instead stealing from the state?
See also, damaging effect of Boris on Scottish nationalist sentiment.1
