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The Betfair next president market tops £1.016 BILLION of matched bets yet still it remains open – po

SystemSystem Posts: 11,688
edited November 2020 in General
imageThe Betfair next president market tops £1.016 BILLION of matched bets yet still it remains open – politicalbetting.com

This is getting ridiculous. Betfair has yet to close its next President market where the the rules state that “This market will be settled according to the candidate that has the most projected Electoral College votes won at the 2020 presidential election.“

Read the full story here

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Comments

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    1st. Unlike Betfair who I am increasingly pissed off with.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,488
    edited November 2020
    E pluribus unum.

    edit - nope.
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    Top 5
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    Any company that breaks its bond of trust with its customers deserves to be dropped off the quayside.

    I said before that I'll never use Betfair again for political bets. I've now decided to end all betting with them. No more bets from now, and as soon as my last bets are settled, my account will be closed.
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    turbotubbsturbotubbs Posts: 15,206
    4th. It is becoming a joke. At this rate the inauguration will take place before they close this.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    This Betfair fiasco is embarrassing.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Yet Betfair have the liquidity so we are stuck with them.
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    Why would Betfair close it?

    The longer it's open, and the more bets they match, the more commission they make.

    I don't expect it to be settled until 14th December.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,293
    People still complaining about the continuing availability of free money, I see.
  • Options
    I wonder if some Betfair honchos are personally bigly on the wrong side of this market and looking for a Hail Mary?

    It is either that or incompetence.
  • Options
    Scott_xP said:
    It did exist but it mainly involving sucking up to Donald Trump in the hope he would throw the odd hormone enhanced turkey our way, so it is holed beneath the waterline.
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,688

    I wonder if some Betfair honchos are personally bigly on the wrong side of this market and looking for a Hail Mary?

    It is either that or incompetence.

    BF senior execs are presumably not allowed to partake.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320
    edited November 2020
    I have two points to add to Mike's.

    1. Betfair may be in difficulties with punters who are currently placing losing bets on Trump in a contest the result of which is already known. When they do settle, they may well face demands for return of their stake money from such losing bets. The punters in question would appear to have a point.

    2. Never mind the main market, what about the Vote Tally markets? It says in the rules:
    ' This market will be settled upon popular vote figures as published by CNN.'
    Well, CNN have published figures showing Biden's Tally to be well in excess of 75 million, the highest level on which one could bet. So why has this not been settled? (The same considerations apply to the Trump Vote Tally market.)

    Wtf are they playing at?

    Like others here, I am closing my Betfair account when they have coughed up.
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    IanB2 said:

    People still complaining about the continuing availability of free money, I see.

    the concern is that after weeks of this there will be an arbitrary decision to just void the market.
  • Options

    I wonder if some Betfair honchos are personally bigly on the wrong side of this market and looking for a Hail Mary?

    It is either that or incompetence.

    BF senior execs are presumably not allowed to partake.
    Cough*Beard Accounts*Cough
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    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,688

    1st. Unlike Betfair who I am increasingly pissed off with.


    "... off with whom I am increasingly pissed."

    :wink:
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    I have two points to add to Mike's.

    1. Betfair may be in difficulties with punters who are currently placing losing bets on Trump in a contest the result of which is already known. When they do settle, they may well face demands for return of their stake money from such losing bets. The punters in question would appear to have a point.

    2. Never mind the main market, what about the Vote Tally markets? It says in the rules:
    ' This market will be settled upon popular vote figures as published by CNN.'
    Well, CNN have published figures showing Biden's Tally to be well in excess of 75 million, the highest level on which one could bet. So why has this not been settled? (The same considerations apply to the Trump Vote Tally market.)

    Wtf are they playing at?

    Like others here, I am closing my Betfair account when they have coughed up.

    Might point 1 lead to the voiding of the market that I concerned about?
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    IanB2 said:

    People still complaining about the continuing availability of free money, I see.

    the concern is that after weeks of this there will be an arbitrary decision to just void the market.
    Any sensible punter maxed out weeks ago. Anyone mortgaging the house to take advantage runs the risk of bad faith.

    In view of Betfair's behavior to date on this market, that's not a trifling consideration.
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    If London is in Tier 2 then so should the North West and Yorkshire.

    Otherwise it is further proof that this government hates the North.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011

    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.
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    Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    edited November 2020

    I have two points to add to Mike's.

    1. Betfair may be in difficulties with punters who are currently placing losing bets on Trump in a contest the result of which is already known. When they do settle, they may well face demands for return of their stake money from such losing bets. The punters in question would appear to have a point.

    2. Never mind the main market, what about the Vote Tally markets? It says in the rules:
    ' This market will be settled upon popular vote figures as published by CNN.'
    Well, CNN have published figures showing Biden's Tally to be well in excess of 75 million, the highest level on which one could bet. So why has this not been settled? (The same considerations apply to the Trump Vote Tally market.)

    Wtf are they playing at?

    Like others here, I am closing my Betfair account when they have coughed up.

    Yes, I'm afraid I've strayed over the line from "they are money grubbing bastards" to "is everyone actually going to get their money?" territory.
    I just hope it they do go tits up I'm not left out of pocket.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    Fantastic news if so, and a dry crisp outlook on the forecast - opens up opportunities for winter pints and meeting mates under the outdoor heaters.
  • Options

    I have two points to add to Mike's.

    1. Betfair may be in difficulties with punters who are currently placing losing bets on Trump in a contest the result of which is already known. When they do settle, they may well face demands for return of their stake money from such losing bets. The punters in question would appear to have a point.

    2. Never mind the main market, what about the Vote Tally markets? It says in the rules:
    ' This market will be settled upon popular vote figures as published by CNN.'
    Well, CNN have published figures showing Biden's Tally to be well in excess of 75 million, the highest level on which one could bet. So why has this not been settled? (The same considerations apply to the Trump Vote Tally market.)

    Wtf are they playing at?

    Like others here, I am closing my Betfair account when they have coughed up.

    Might point 1 lead to the voiding of the market that I concerned about?
    Perhaps, although even the soporific Gambling Commission might raise an eyebrow at that.
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    IanB2 said:

    People still complaining about the continuing availability of free money, I see.

    the concern is that after weeks of this there will be an arbitrary decision to just void the market.
    Any sensible punter maxed out weeks ago. Anyone mortgaging the house to take advantage runs the risk of bad faith.

    In view of Betfair's behavior to date on this market, that's not a trifling consideration.
    In view of the mounting concern about the company's behaviour expressed on here by regulars who know their onions, I have cashed out on my main Biden bet, foregoing some winnings.

    I am mighty, mighty pissed tonight.
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    It turns out guns don't protect you from thieves.

    https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1331698728483385346
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    If London is in Tier 2 then so should the North West and Yorkshire.

    Otherwise it is further proof that this government hates the North.

    The government loves the North. We have a levelling up agenda!
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    If London is in Tier 2 then so should the North West and Yorkshire.

    Otherwise it is further proof that this government hates the North.

    What did you expect? Levelling up is a pack of blather.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    On the other side of the bet, my wagers on Trump 270-299 and 300-329 remain open. I have just checked. Absolutely stark raving bonkers.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited November 2020
    johnt said:


    Reporting any wrongdoing would be a good plan. Unfortunately what tends to happen is that the right make up stories to try and discredit the charity sector so they can promote the interests of private firms. It is an ideological issue, some on the right cannot abide the concept of charity sector. The whole concept of not for profit is alien to them.

    I’m not going to get into this debate, but I am heavily involved in one of the more disruptive foundations in the charity world - we are actively seeking to shake up the third sector.

    There is a lot of poor management and excessive spending among the larger charities. As with any organisation the further you get from the coal face the more it is a career rather than a vocation
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011

    If London is in Tier 2 then so should the North West and Yorkshire.

    Otherwise it is further proof that this government hates the North.

    The government loves the North. We have a levelling up agenda!
    Agreed, North London should be a priority for us all. Well said.
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    Scott_xP said:
    Absolutely. By a landslide and don't forget it or forget why Scott.
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    Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 13,320
    edited November 2020
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    I have two points to add to Mike's.

    1. Betfair may be in difficulties with punters who are currently placing losing bets on Trump in a contest the result of which is already known. When they do settle, they may well face demands for return of their stake money from such losing bets. The punters in question would appear to have a point.

    2. Never mind the main market, what about the Vote Tally markets? It says in the rules:
    ' This market will be settled upon popular vote figures as published by CNN.'
    Well, CNN have published figures showing Biden's Tally to be well in excess of 75 million, the highest level on which one could bet. So why has this not been settled? (The same considerations apply to the Trump Vote Tally market.)

    Wtf are they playing at?

    Like others here, I am closing my Betfair account when they have coughed up.

    Yes, I'm afraid I've strayed over the line from "they are money grubbing bastards" to "is everyone actually going to get their money?" territory.
    I just hope it they do go tits up I'm not left out of pocket.
    Well since they are an Exchange and your bets are matched against other punters that shouldn't happen, unless of course there is outright fraud and employees are absconding with funds.

    Their credibility is shot though, and when you lose confidence in a bookmaker, you have to stop betting with them.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,694


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
  • Options

    If London is in Tier 2 then so should the North West and Yorkshire.

    Otherwise it is further proof that this government hates the North.

    The government loves the North. We have a levelling up agenda!
    Agreed, North London should be a priority for us all. Well said.
    The decision about how generous furlough will be in the future will be decided once it is known which tier London will fall into.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited November 2020
    Interestingly prior to the election the the majoriry of the money staked on the main market went on Trump. Since the election it has been all Biden.

    People are purchasing money from whosoever it is putting up the other side.
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    Scott_xP said:
    Absolutely. By a landslide and don't forget it or forget why Scott.
    Last December, we mostly knew Johnson was terrible, but alternative at the time seemed even worse.

    That win is nothing at all to be proud of.
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    Charles said:

    johnt said:


    Reporting any wrongdoing would be a good plan. Unfortunately what tends to happen is that the right make up stories to try and discredit the charity sector so they can promote the interests of private firms. It is an ideological issue, some on the right cannot abide the concept of charity sector. The whole concept of not for profit is alien to them.

    I’m not going to get into this debate, but I am heavily involved in one of the more disruptive foundations in the charity world - we are actively seeking to shake up the third sector.

    There is a lot of poor management and excessive spending among the larger charities. As with any organisation the further you get from the coal face the more it is a career rather than a vocation
    Absolutely.

    I have a lot of time and respect for charities that aim to help others.

    Paying millions to the former Right Honourable Member for South Shields doesn't seem like my first pick on how to spend millions meant for charity.
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    Roy_G_Biv said:

    I have two points to add to Mike's.

    1. Betfair may be in difficulties with punters who are currently placing losing bets on Trump in a contest the result of which is already known. When they do settle, they may well face demands for return of their stake money from such losing bets. The punters in question would appear to have a point.

    2. Never mind the main market, what about the Vote Tally markets? It says in the rules:
    ' This market will be settled upon popular vote figures as published by CNN.'
    Well, CNN have published figures showing Biden's Tally to be well in excess of 75 million, the highest level on which one could bet. So why has this not been settled? (The same considerations apply to the Trump Vote Tally market.)

    Wtf are they playing at?

    Like others here, I am closing my Betfair account when they have coughed up.

    Yes, I'm afraid I've strayed over the line from "they are money grubbing bastards" to "is everyone actually going to get their money?" territory.
    I just hope it they do go tits up I'm not left out of pocket.
    Well since they are an Exchange and your bets are matched against other punters that shouldn't happen, unless of course there is outright fraud and employees absconding with funds.

    Their credibility is shot though, and when you lose confidence in a bookmaker, you have to stop betting with them.
    Yes, but two points to answer that. Firstly, is there a risk of legal action by those who've placed losing bets in the last week or two, after the market really should have been closed? That's feels non-trivial to me, and Betfair won't be able to cover it if that becomes a case that they lose. Secondly, if their business is in trouble anyway, if their financials are bad, what priority will punters get in the pecking order, versus suppliers and creditors? I've no idea whether their finances are rosy or rusty, but their keenness to keep the market open despite the reputational damage is the sort of thing you'd expect to see if things weren't quite so peachy.

    I'm out, and I won't touch them with a bargepole from now on. Others might have different risk appetites.
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    Scott_xP said:
    Absolutely. By a landslide and don't forget it or forget why Scott.
    Last December, we mostly knew Johnson was terrible, but alternative at the time seemed even worse.

    That win is nothing at all to be proud of.
    Any win is to be proud of.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2020
    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    This is the most concerning...

    For example, it has since been revealed that the people who received an initial half-dose—and for whom the vaccine was said to have 90-percent efficacy—included no one over the age of 55.

    Makes it very difficult for regulators, when we don't know about that the untested demographic is the one we need to know the level of protection.

    What do the regulator and the government do, reserve pfizer and moderna vaccines for oldies? And only allow Oxford for the rest of us plebs.
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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,329
    edited November 2020

    If London is in Tier 2 then so should the North West and Yorkshire.

    Otherwise it is further proof that this government hates the North.

    Back in 2004:

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/in-one-article-boris-manages-to-offend-an-entire-city-shy-and-his-boss-543923.html
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    GaussianGaussian Posts: 793
    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    That's putting it charitably. The half-full scheme happened by accident, due to unintentional underdosing of a minority of patients, and apparently it didn't include test subjects aged over 55.

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2020/11/astrazenecas-best-covid-vaccine-result-was-a-fluke-experts-have-questions/
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    johnt said:


    Reporting any wrongdoing would be a good plan. Unfortunately what tends to happen is that the right make up stories to try and discredit the charity sector so they can promote the interests of private firms. It is an ideological issue, some on the right cannot abide the concept of charity sector. The whole concept of not for profit is alien to them.

    I’m not going to get into this debate, but I am heavily involved in one of the more disruptive foundations in the charity world - we are actively seeking to shake up the third sector.

    There is a lot of poor management and excessive spending among the larger charities. As with any organisation the further you get from the coal face the more it is a career rather than a vocation
    Absolutely.

    I have a lot of time and respect for charities that aim to help others.

    Paying millions to the former Right Honourable Member for South Shields doesn't seem like my first pick on how to spend millions meant for charity.
    TBF that particular charity is about coordinating the responses of other charities. It’s like the Disaster Emergency Committee in the U.K. given that function a politico/bureaucrat would have useful skills.
  • Options

    Scott_xP said:
    Absolutely. By a landslide and don't forget it or forget why Scott.
    Last December, we mostly knew Johnson was terrible, but alternative at the time seemed even worse.

    That win is nothing at all to be proud of.
    I don't think there was a single seat in the country where the choice was only between Conservative or Labour.
    My conscience wouldn't allow me to vote for either. Anyone who did was doing it with their eyes wide open. Personally, I don't have any time for excuses along the lines of "but the other side" when there are more than two sides.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,688
    edited November 2020
    Completely missing the point, I know, but how come we had so many years of negative growth during the Industiral revolution?

    33 years of negative growth in the period 1750 -1850 by my count. 44 during the 18th century.

    Weird.
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    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    Some of the numbers coming out of the US are terrible — such as the daily deaths, South Dakota's numbers, 25% of all infections being from November — and they haven't even had Thanksgiving yet.

    I do wonder if mid-December we are going to see some numbers from the US that make the politicians here suddenly change their minds about Christmas.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,215
    edited November 2020

    Fantastic news if so, and a dry crisp outlook on the forecast - opens up opportunities for winter pints and meeting mates under the outdoor heaters.
    It’s appalling news for pubs. Look at the rules. It makes it very difficult indeed to do business. Daughter is dreading being in Tier 2 because of the constraints. She will have to ring all her existing bookings and see if they can / want to continue. And bear in mind that she cannot turn a blind eye to people claiming to be one household/one support bubble when she knows they aren’t because of the risk of a fine which would wipe out what little she has left.

    Plus the rules increase her costs because of the need for table service.

    If it cannot be Tier 1 it would be better to be in Tier 3.

    The government really has hung the hospitality industry out to dry.

    It is so hard seeing your child being in tears at seeing their hard work being rendered pointless. What makes it worse is that in this district, Covid has been very low for months and months. This area is being bundled in with places like Carlisle which are over 2 hours away, much like Manchester. It feels constantly like being punished for something you haven’t done.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    OK.

    People given full dose / full dose of the AZN/Oxford vaccine saw efficacy of 60-70%.
    People given half dose / full dose of vaccine saw efficacy close to 90%.

    HOWEVER, the half dose / full dose people were all under 55 (so this may simply be the case that the vaccine is much more efficacious on the young), and the numbers are too small to be certain that this isn't simply a statistical anomoly.

    It is worth noting, however, that (AFAUI) none of the people who got the AZN/Oxford vaccine became seriously ill with CV19, and it does not require sub zero storage at all. It is therefore a vaccine that could be useful for (a) the young and (b) emerging markets.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    Pulpstar said:
    Just doesn't seem right Presidents have such power. I know they do, but still.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,694
    Charles said:

    johnt said:


    Reporting any wrongdoing would be a good plan. Unfortunately what tends to happen is that the right make up stories to try and discredit the charity sector so they can promote the interests of private firms. It is an ideological issue, some on the right cannot abide the concept of charity sector. The whole concept of not for profit is alien to them.

    I’m not going to get into this debate, but I am heavily involved in one of the more disruptive foundations in the charity world - we are actively seeking to shake up the third sector.

    There is a lot of poor management and excessive spending among the larger charities. As with any organisation the further you get from the coal face the more it is a career rather than a vocation
    I don't disagree, and some larger charities do seem to have excessive overheads and dubious fundraising. I won't support any charity using chugger for example.

    The problem is that a certain amount of expertise, scale and logistics is needed for larger scale projects.

    The reason that DFID outsources so much spending via NGOs is that they do have the infrastructure, something that can otherwise be of dubious quality, particularly in developing countries.

    The other reason is that the ideological cutting of senior staff at DFID to reduce the Civil Service headcount means that there are few alternatives to outsourcing.

    At the moment of course DFID is in the middle of a chaotic merger with the FCO, so most senior staff at each are concentrating on sorting out their place in the mess rather than the day job. Why DFID couldn't have been kept broadly the same, just turned into a sub-department of the FCO for ministerial purposes, I don't know.


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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2020
    I presume the challenge trial is still going ahead in the new year. Oxford originally said they didn't want their vaccine to be involved, perhaps they now should.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798

    It turns out guns don't protect you from thieves.

    https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/1331698728483385346

    Astonishing news. To a new born baby, perhaps.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007
    Alistair said:

    Interestingly prior to the election the the majoriry of the money staked on the main market went on Trump. Since the election it has been all Biden.

    People are purchasing money from whosoever it is putting up the other side.

    That doesn't make sense.

    Every bet has a buyer and a seller. For every £1 staked on Biden, there has to be £1 staked on Trump. It is only the ratio of winnings (i.e. the price) that changes.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    This is the most concerning...

    For example, it has since been revealed that the people who received an initial half-dose—and for whom the vaccine was said to have 90-percent efficacy—included no one over the age of 55.

    Makes it very difficult for regulators, when we don't know about that the untested demographic is the one we need to know the level of protection.

    What do the regulator and the government do, reserve pfizer and moderna vaccines for oldies? And only allow Oxford for the rest of us plebs.
    You give it a restricted label
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    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Just doesn't seem right Presidents have such power. I know they do, but still.
    In this respect, they are like Kings. This was exactly what the US Constitution was intended to prevent.
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    Is that true? Or someone’s opinion? That sounds a very serious allegation to me.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2020

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    Is that true? Or someone’s opinion? That sounds a very serious allegation to me.
    Makes a fairly convincing argument...

    https://www.wired.com/story/the-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-data-isnt-up-to-snuff/
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Completely missing the point, I know, but how come we had so many years of negative growth during the Industiral revolution?

    33 years of negative growth in the period 1750 -1850 by my count. 44 during the 18th century.

    Weird.
    Our family’s balance sheet was the same in 1831 and 1927...
  • Options
    Charles said:

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    This is the most concerning...

    For example, it has since been revealed that the people who received an initial half-dose—and for whom the vaccine was said to have 90-percent efficacy—included no one over the age of 55.

    Makes it very difficult for regulators, when we don't know about that the untested demographic is the one we need to know the level of protection.

    What do the regulator and the government do, reserve pfizer and moderna vaccines for oldies? And only allow Oxford for the rest of us plebs.
    You give it a restricted label
    With the two full dose regime or the half/full combo?
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    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    Cyclefree said:

    Fantastic news if so, and a dry crisp outlook on the forecast - opens up opportunities for winter pints and meeting mates under the outdoor heaters.
    It’s appalling news for pubs. Look at the rules. It makes it very difficult indeed to do business. Daughter is dreading being in Tier 2 because of the constraints. She will have to ring all her existing bookings and see if they can / want to continue. And bear in mind that she cannot turn a blind eye to people claiming to be one household/one support bubble when she knows they aren’t because of the risk of a fine which would wipe out what little she has left.

    Plus the rules increase her costs because of the need for table service.

    If it cannot be Tier 1 it would be better to be in Tier 3.

    The government really has hung the hospitality industry out to dry.

    It is so hard seeing your child being in tears at seeing their hard work being rendered pointless. What makes it worse is that in this district, Covid has been very low for months and months. This area is being bundled in with places like Carlisle which are over 2 hours away, much like Manchester. It feels constantly like being punished for something you haven’t done.
    That is saddening to hear. Is there any chance you will get Tier 1 status?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    rcs1000 said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    OK.

    People given full dose / full dose of the AZN/Oxford vaccine saw efficacy of 60-70%.
    People given half dose / full dose of vaccine saw efficacy close to 90%.

    HOWEVER, the half dose / full dose people were all under 55 (so this may simply be the case that the vaccine is much more efficacious on the young), and the numbers are too small to be certain that this isn't simply a statistical anomoly.

    It is worth noting, however, that (AFAUI) none of the people who got the AZN/Oxford vaccine became seriously ill with CV19, and it does not require sub zero storage at all. It is therefore a vaccine that could be useful for (a) the young and (b) emerging markets.
    Sure that was my exact understanding, yet people like Foxy and Francis seem to be pouring water on the whole trial.

    That strikes me as very serious allegation. And perhaps somewhat unfair?
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798

    kle4 said:

    Pulpstar said:
    Just doesn't seem right Presidents have such power. I know they do, but still.
    In this respect, they are like Kings. This was exactly what the US Constitution was intended to prevent.
    Saw a quote from a Democrat thus:

    There is no doubt that a president has broad power to confer pardons, but when they are deployed to insulate himself, his family, and his associates from criminal investigation, it is a corruption of the Framer's intent


    If they didn't want it abused, but still wanted the power to exist, seems like they could have included a bit more detail - it's not as though they were short on detail in many other areas.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    Is that true? Or someone’s opinion? That sounds a very serious allegation to me.
    Makes a fairly convincing argument...

    https://www.wired.com/story/the-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-data-isnt-up-to-snuff/
    That's a really excellent article.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    This is the most concerning...

    For example, it has since been revealed that the people who received an initial half-dose—and for whom the vaccine was said to have 90-percent efficacy—included no one over the age of 55.

    Makes it very difficult for regulators, when we don't know about that the untested demographic is the one we need to know the level of protection.

    What do the regulator and the government do, reserve pfizer and moderna vaccines for oldies? And only allow Oxford for the rest of us plebs.
    You give it a restricted label
    With the two full dose regime or the half/full combo?
    If the 1&1/2 dose version doesn’t have data in oldies you label it for under 55s only
  • Options
    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,798
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    Is that true? Or someone’s opinion? That sounds a very serious allegation to me.
    Makes a fairly convincing argument...

    https://www.wired.com/story/the-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-data-isnt-up-to-snuff/
    That's a really excellent article.
    Well, at least the eggs have not all been in one basket, so any such disappointment is not as bad as it might have been.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    Interestingly prior to the election the the majoriry of the money staked on the main market went on Trump. Since the election it has been all Biden.

    People are purchasing money from whosoever it is putting up the other side.

    That doesn't make sense.

    Every bet has a buyer and a seller. For every £1 staked on Biden, there has to be £1 staked on Trump. It is only the ratio of winnings (i.e. the price) that changes.
    Is that right? When I backed £60 on Trump 270-299, someone had to lay £420 on that not occurring.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Completely missing the point, I know, but how come we had so many years of negative growth during the Industiral revolution?

    33 years of negative growth in the period 1750 -1850 by my count. 44 during the 18th century.

    Weird.
    Our family’s balance sheet was the same in 1831 and 1927...
    So was ours: diddly squat and diddly squat.
    We spent rather a lot in the second half of the 19th century
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    This is the most concerning...

    For example, it has since been revealed that the people who received an initial half-dose—and for whom the vaccine was said to have 90-percent efficacy—included no one over the age of 55.

    Makes it very difficult for regulators, when we don't know about that the untested demographic is the one we need to know the level of protection.

    What do the regulator and the government do, reserve pfizer and moderna vaccines for oldies? And only allow Oxford for the rest of us plebs.
    What’s this “us plebs” thing? It pops up a lot on here for no obvious reason.

    If it’s cheap and works for the under-55s, give it to us. Why bother with the complicated expensive solution - save that for the old and vulnerable.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,694
    edited November 2020

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    Is that true? Or someone’s opinion? That sounds a very serious allegation to me.
    It seems to be true. Randomisation to treatment or placebo needs to be purely by chance. Matching can deal with known variables (such as age or sex) but only true randomisation can deal with unknown variables. We know the 1.5 dose regime was not given randomly, but by accident. This invalidates the study methodology in terms of which dose is best. We can however say with confidence that there is an overall benefit of 70% protection.

    Not that the detail is yet out. We are relying at present on press releases.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    This is the most concerning...

    For example, it has since been revealed that the people who received an initial half-dose—and for whom the vaccine was said to have 90-percent efficacy—included no one over the age of 55.

    Makes it very difficult for regulators, when we don't know about that the untested demographic is the one we need to know the level of protection.

    What do the regulator and the government do, reserve pfizer and moderna vaccines for oldies? And only allow Oxford for the rest of us plebs.
    You give it a restricted label
    With the two full dose regime or the half/full combo?
    If the 1&1/2 dose version doesn’t have data in oldies you label it for under 55s only
    Yes, exactly. That seems perfectly logical to me.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    Yes, I read that Wired article earlier and thought it was borderline libellous. Have Oxon responded to it?
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2020
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    This is the most concerning...

    For example, it has since been revealed that the people who received an initial half-dose—and for whom the vaccine was said to have 90-percent efficacy—included no one over the age of 55.

    Makes it very difficult for regulators, when we don't know about that the untested demographic is the one we need to know the level of protection.

    What do the regulator and the government do, reserve pfizer and moderna vaccines for oldies? And only allow Oxford for the rest of us plebs.
    You give it a restricted label
    With the two full dose regime or the half/full combo?
    If the 1&1/2 dose version doesn’t have data in oldies you label it for under 55s only
    If there's no chance of using it for oldies then use it for who you can. Start with care workers, then NHS workers (both first and second round of vaccinations anyway), move on then to teachers etc

    The one thing that can't be done is have a perfectly good vaccine sitting idle.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007

    Completely missing the point, I know, but how come we had so many years of negative growth during the Industiral revolution?

    33 years of negative growth in the period 1750 -1850 by my count. 44 during the 18th century.

    Weird.
    Before governments thought they could control the economy, growth was faster but more volatile. Bank owners - with very few exceptions - got regularly wiped out.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,694

    Cyclefree said:

    Fantastic news if so, and a dry crisp outlook on the forecast - opens up opportunities for winter pints and meeting mates under the outdoor heaters.
    It’s appalling news for pubs. Look at the rules. It makes it very difficult indeed to do business. Daughter is dreading being in Tier 2 because of the constraints. She will have to ring all her existing bookings and see if they can / want to continue. And bear in mind that she cannot turn a blind eye to people claiming to be one household/one support bubble when she knows they aren’t because of the risk of a fine which would wipe out what little she has left.

    Plus the rules increase her costs because of the need for table service.

    If it cannot be Tier 1 it would be better to be in Tier 3.

    The government really has hung the hospitality industry out to dry.

    It is so hard seeing your child being in tears at seeing their hard work being rendered pointless. What makes it worse is that in this district, Covid has been very low for months and months. This area is being bundled in with places like Carlisle which are over 2 hours away, much like Manchester. It feels constantly like being punished for something you haven’t done.
    That is saddening to hear. Is there any chance you will get Tier 1 status?
    I don't think anyone knows yet.

    A lot depends on how wide the areas are defined by. Better figures on my patch this week, but I think the whole county will be in 2 or 3.


  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    Is that true? Or someone’s opinion? That sounds a very serious allegation to me.
    It seems to be true. Randomisation to treatment or placebo needs to be purely by chance. Matching can deal with known variables (such as age or sex) but only true randomisation can deal with unknown variables. We know the 1.5 dose regime was not given randomly, but by accident. This invalidates the study methodology in terms of which dose is best. We can however say with confidence that there is an overall benefit of 70% protection.

    Not that the detail is yet out. We are relying at present on press releases.
    Even if it is 70% that’s still excellent for a respiratory vaccine yet there seems to be a group who want to trash the whole trial.

    As @Charles says, if the vaccine performs better for the under-55s, give it to the bloody under-55s.

    Are we allergic to good news?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,007

    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    Interestingly prior to the election the the majoriry of the money staked on the main market went on Trump. Since the election it has been all Biden.

    People are purchasing money from whosoever it is putting up the other side.

    That doesn't make sense.

    Every bet has a buyer and a seller. For every £1 staked on Biden, there has to be £1 staked on Trump. It is only the ratio of winnings (i.e. the price) that changes.
    Is that right? When I backed £60 on Trump 270-299, someone had to lay £420 on that not occurring.
    Well yes, the liability is different.

    My point is that it makes no sense to talk about all the bets being for Biden or for Trump, because for each person betting on Biden, there is another person on the other end of the trade betting on Not Biden.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,688
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Completely missing the point, I know, but how come we had so many years of negative growth during the Industiral revolution?

    33 years of negative growth in the period 1750 -1850 by my count. 44 during the 18th century.

    Weird.
    Our family’s balance sheet was the same in 1831 and 1927...
    So was ours: diddly squat and diddly squat.
    We spent rather a lot in the second half of the 19th century
    Who is the 'we' though Charles?

    Most of us on here in will have had between 32 and 64 ancestors alive in 1831. Which of your ancestors is your 'family', and why?
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    The headline and standfirst on that Wired article would never make it past the media lawyers I know. Very risky indeed.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,688
    rcs1000 said:

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    Is that true? Or someone’s opinion? That sounds a very serious allegation to me.
    Makes a fairly convincing argument...

    https://www.wired.com/story/the-astrazeneca-covid-vaccine-data-isnt-up-to-snuff/
    That's a really excellent article.
    Not really excellent for the UK though is it?
  • Options

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Completely missing the point, I know, but how come we had so many years of negative growth during the Industiral revolution?

    33 years of negative growth in the period 1750 -1850 by my count. 44 during the 18th century.

    Weird.
    Our family’s balance sheet was the same in 1831 and 1927...
    So was ours: diddly squat and diddly squat.
    We spent rather a lot in the second half of the 19th century
    Who is the 'we' though Charles?

    Most of us on here in will have had between 32 and 64 ancestors alive in 1831. Which of your ancestors is your 'family', and why?
    For people who can trace their family back easily, you'll find those numbers are often more like 29 and 60 ;)
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Completely missing the point, I know, but how come we had so many years of negative growth during the Industiral revolution?

    33 years of negative growth in the period 1750 -1850 by my count. 44 during the 18th century.

    Weird.
    Before governments thought they could control the economy, growth was faster but more volatile. Bank owners - with very few exceptions - got regularly wiped out.
    Very few?
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,694
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    This is the most concerning...

    For example, it has since been revealed that the people who received an initial half-dose—and for whom the vaccine was said to have 90-percent efficacy—included no one over the age of 55.

    Makes it very difficult for regulators, when we don't know about that the untested demographic is the one we need to know the level of protection.

    What do the regulator and the government do, reserve pfizer and moderna vaccines for oldies? And only allow Oxford for the rest of us plebs.
    You give it a restricted label
    With the two full dose regime or the half/full combo?
    If the 1&1/2 dose version doesn’t have data in oldies you label it for under 55s only
    But the data for the under 55s is flawed because of the lack of proper randomisation. You cannot just fix it afterwards.

  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Fantastic news if so, and a dry crisp outlook on the forecast - opens up opportunities for winter pints and meeting mates under the outdoor heaters.
    It’s appalling news for pubs. Look at the rules. It makes it very difficult indeed to do business. Daughter is dreading being in Tier 2 because of the constraints. She will have to ring all her existing bookings and see if they can / want to continue. And bear in mind that she cannot turn a blind eye to people claiming to be one household/one support bubble when she knows they aren’t because of the risk of a fine which would wipe out what little she has left.

    Plus the rules increase her costs because of the need for table service.

    If it cannot be Tier 1 it would be better to be in Tier 3.

    The government really has hung the hospitality industry out to dry.

    It is so hard seeing your child being in tears at seeing their hard work being rendered pointless. What makes it worse is that in this district, Covid has been very low for months and months. This area is being bundled in with places like Carlisle which are over 2 hours away, much like Manchester. It feels constantly like being punished for something you haven’t done.
    That is saddening to hear. Is there any chance you will get Tier 1 status?
    I don't think anyone knows yet.

    A lot depends on how wide the areas are defined by. Better figures on my patch this week, but I think the whole county will be in 2 or 3.


    Would be extremely harsh on Hinckley & Bosworth!
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,285
    edited November 2020

    The headline and standfirst on that Wired article would never make it past the media lawyers I know. Very risky indeed.

    I think there are two stand out issues that Oxford / AZ need to address from the arricle. The claim they have mashed together results from trials run under different conditions, and the low proportion of over 55s across all the trials.

    It might be first issue is fine and the second just means for the moment this is only authorised for under 55s for now.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,694

    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    Is that true? Or someone’s opinion? That sounds a very serious allegation to me.
    It seems to be true. Randomisation to treatment or placebo needs to be purely by chance. Matching can deal with known variables (such as age or sex) but only true randomisation can deal with unknown variables. We know the 1.5 dose regime was not given randomly, but by accident. This invalidates the study methodology in terms of which dose is best. We can however say with confidence that there is an overall benefit of 70% protection.

    Not that the detail is yet out. We are relying at present on press releases.
    Even if it is 70% that’s still excellent for a respiratory vaccine yet there seems to be a group who want to trash the whole trial.

    As @Charles says, if the vaccine performs better for the under-55s, give it to the bloody under-55s.

    Are we allergic to good news?
    I am not sure that a licencing board would agree to let the low dose through on such data, and the precedent of being leaned on by government is treading on very thin ice.
  • Options
    Turns out the BBC were right to report that the Oxford Vaccine was 70% effective.

    GDBO, they've misled the country and the world, shame on them for raising the hopes of a nation.
  • Options
    AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 20,011
    Foxy said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Foxy said:


    Can someone briefly update me on the Oxon full-full / half-full thing? I keep reading snippets on here but it seems to be a very stretched discussion, hard to piece together the responses.

    Basically the methodology of the randomisation is potentially unsound. It is hard to be sure as we only have press releases to go on. The licensing bodies will want to look over the original data.

    It doesn't mean that the vaccine is a dud, just not yet sufficiently proven.
    This is the most concerning...

    For example, it has since been revealed that the people who received an initial half-dose—and for whom the vaccine was said to have 90-percent efficacy—included no one over the age of 55.

    Makes it very difficult for regulators, when we don't know about that the untested demographic is the one we need to know the level of protection.

    What do the regulator and the government do, reserve pfizer and moderna vaccines for oldies? And only allow Oxford for the rest of us plebs.
    You give it a restricted label
    With the two full dose regime or the half/full combo?
    If the 1&1/2 dose version doesn’t have data in oldies you label it for under 55s only
    But the data for the under 55s is flawed because of the lack of proper randomisation. You cannot just fix it afterwards.

    Are you saying the whole trial is defective? And that we cannot be confident the vaccine works? If so, that is an extremely serious allegation.

    Or, are we simply challenging the 90% figure? That’s nothing like as serious, as Oxon themselves soft pedalled on that.
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,694

    Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Fantastic news if so, and a dry crisp outlook on the forecast - opens up opportunities for winter pints and meeting mates under the outdoor heaters.
    It’s appalling news for pubs. Look at the rules. It makes it very difficult indeed to do business. Daughter is dreading being in Tier 2 because of the constraints. She will have to ring all her existing bookings and see if they can / want to continue. And bear in mind that she cannot turn a blind eye to people claiming to be one household/one support bubble when she knows they aren’t because of the risk of a fine which would wipe out what little she has left.

    Plus the rules increase her costs because of the need for table service.

    If it cannot be Tier 1 it would be better to be in Tier 3.

    The government really has hung the hospitality industry out to dry.

    It is so hard seeing your child being in tears at seeing their hard work being rendered pointless. What makes it worse is that in this district, Covid has been very low for months and months. This area is being bundled in with places like Carlisle which are over 2 hours away, much like Manchester. It feels constantly like being punished for something you haven’t done.
    That is saddening to hear. Is there any chance you will get Tier 1 status?
    I don't think anyone knows yet.

    A lot depends on how wide the areas are defined by. Better figures on my patch this week, but I think the whole county will be in 2 or 3.


    Would be extremely harsh on Hinckley & Bosworth!
    Everywhere in Leics is above the English average.
This discussion has been closed.