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As time runs out in the Brexit transition YouGov has “Brexit Wrong” once again with a double digit l

SystemSystem Posts: 11,002
edited November 2020 in General
imageAs time runs out in the Brexit transition YouGov has “Brexit Wrong” once again with a double digit lead – politicalbetting.com

With things being dominated by the American presidential election we have hardly looked at the ongoing effort by the government to come to an agreement before the the end of the Brexit transition period at the end of December. If that doesn’t happen the UK has no deal and is in very uncertain territory.

Read the full story here

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Comments

  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    2016 should have been a vote to leave the EU or not, 2020 should have been accept the governments negotiation or not. Direct democracy does not work unless the people asked also get say on alternative. Otherwise, the sound policy of putting pre 2016 major changes to our membership to the people is now being slain. Otherwise giving governments a blank check to get a deal through the commons, is a complete mockery of the 2016 vote. No? It could be a Labour government putting their interpretation of the 2016 vote through the commons between now and Christmas.

    As in industrial relations, you vote to send your representatives to negotiate with the bosses, only those with straw for brains vote up front to accept whatever shit they come back with.

    Taking direct democracy out the box without any experience how to properly use it was the most dumbest thing UK has ever done.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,279
    What will be the plans for New Year's Eve?

    Christmas bubbles for five days, then what, flat fizz for Hogmanay?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,263
    I gather (council source) that the new tiers will be announced on Thursday, with "many" regions expected to be moved into stricter tiers, no doubt to get the rate down before the Christmas splurge.
  • dr_spyn said:

    What will be the plans for New Year's Eve?

    Christmas bubbles for five days, then what, flat fizz for Hogmanay?

    I dread to think....given you have let everybody act like teenagers with a hall pass for 5 days over Christmas, trying to put that in the box for New Year Eve is very difficult.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2020
    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only on the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20
  • I gather (council source) that the new tiers will be announced on Thursday, with "many" regions expected to be moved into stricter tiers, no doubt to get the rate down before the Christmas splurge.

    Boris or Hancock will do this in the Commons, sometime on Thursday
  • I gather (council source) that the new tiers will be announced on Thursday, with "many" regions expected to be moved into stricter tiers, no doubt to get the rate down before the Christmas splurge.

    And how will it go down in the minds of Jo Public?
    "Lockdown lifted!" is my guess. Dark times ahead, around the turn of the year.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    That depends on what life is like under that deal. We don’t know yet. It certainly wont be “business as usual”.
  • geoffw said:

    Saying that a deal is 95% agreed is a bit like saying that humans share 95% of their dna with earwigs (poetic licence on the number), i.e. completely meaningless.
    Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

    Someone posted about Gavin Barwell earlier, and seeing his face again makes me wonder whether 95% is an underestimate.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392

    I gather (council source) that the new tiers will be announced on Thursday, with "many" regions expected to be moved into stricter tiers, no doubt to get the rate down before the Christmas splurge.

    Boris or Hancock will do this in the Commons, sometime on Thursday
    Or see the press preview on Wednesday evening if you don't want to wait.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    London in Tier 2 I reckon.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
  • geoffw said:

    Saying that a deal is 95% agreed is a bit like saying that humans share 95% of their dna with earwigs (poetic licence on the number), i.e. completely meaningless.
    Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.

    Reminds me of IT projects that stuck at "95% complete" for ages.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,722
    edited November 2020
    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it, and what with Covid it barely seems that important anyway - most people wanted less immigration and that’s now taken care of to an extent

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered
  • Sky News

    No one in tier 1

    My guess, almost no one in tier 2 either, maybe Cornwall, Devon and Norfolk.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    Sky News

    No one in tier 1

    My guess, almost no one in tier 2 either, maybe Cornwall, Devon and Norfolk.

    Fuck sake
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    I am saying what I think will happen, not what I want to happen.

    I am so far from being a diehard remainer that I effectively abstained from voting in 2016 (I voted, but in accordance with the instructions of my 17 year old son). I thought it didn't really matter, because in the event of a Leave vote, civilised adults would negotiate a civilised EEA type arrangement that I'd be perfectly happy with. What a moron.
  • isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
  • London in Tier 2 I reckon.

    Agreed: 80% likely Tier 2, 20% likely Tier 3
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    That depends on what life is like under that deal. We don’t know yet. It certainly wont be “business as usual”.
    In the bigger picture of line drawn through many polls, support for brexit will be a downward line forever now, till the tipping point vast majority of voters will say, why are we putting up with a brexit we loath? and pro brexit parties both of the time, and whose history enabled it, will be finished as political force.
  • The only poll that matters is the polls at the ballot box and for that we've had four consecutive polls that have led to Brexit being the public will: 2015, 2016, 2017 and 2019. Had any one of those four polls gone the other way then Brexit would never have occured.

    Opinion polls like this are pretty meaningless nonsense. We've had supposedly polls saying that the public thought Brexit was wrong for years yet the general election didn't give Jo "Fuck Brexit" Swinson the majority to become "Next Prime Minister" as she'd claimed now did it? Maybe the public doesn't really want to say Fuck Brexit?

    Prior to the referendum we were consistently told that opinion polls showed the public didn't care about Europe.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    That depends on what life is like under that deal. We don’t know yet. It certainly wont be “business as usual”.
    In the bigger picture of line drawn through many polls, support for brexit will be a downward line forever now, till the tipping point vast majority of voters will say, why are we putting up with a brexit we loath? and pro brexit parties both of the time, and whose history enabled it, will be finished as political force.
    What utter rubbish, most voters over 45 voted for Brexit
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    This Christmas gimmick is insane. Many areas will have to endure weeks in Tier 3 just to “pay for” this nonsense over Christmas. FFS.
  • Sausage Wars...

    Laws are like sausages, how they should be made is a subject of disagreement between the UK and EU?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    I am saying what I think will happen, not what I want to happen.

    I am so far from being a diehard remainer that I effectively abstained from voting in 2016 (I voted, but in accordance with the instructions of my 17 year old son). I thought it didn't really matter, because in the event of a Leave vote, civilised adults would negotiate a civilised EEA type arrangement that I'd be perfectly happy with. What a moron.
    So you backed either Remain or at most a BINO Brexit, you just have an ideological agenda against a Canada style FTA let alone No Deal
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    gealbhan said:

    2016 should have been a vote to leave the EU or not, 2020 should have been accept the governments negotiation or not. Direct democracy does not work unless the people asked also get say on alternative. Otherwise, the sound policy of putting pre 2016 major changes to our membership to the people is now being slain. Otherwise giving governments a blank check to get a deal through the commons, is a complete mockery of the 2016 vote. No? It could be a Labour government putting their interpretation of the 2016 vote through the commons between now and Christmas.

    As in industrial relations, you vote to send your representatives to negotiate with the bosses, only those with straw for brains vote up front to accept whatever shit they come back with.

    Taking direct democracy out the box without any experience how to properly use it was the most dumbest thing UK has ever done.

    Of course; but that ship has sailed.

    I’m not a Labour voter, but their choice to give Johnson room to negotiate a deal is commendably responsible.
    Whether he usefully uses it, or panders to the ‘spirit of Brexit’ crew, is another matter
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    Sky News

    No one in tier 1

    My guess, almost no one in tier 2 either, maybe Cornwall, Devon and Norfolk.

    Why bloody have a tier 1 then, and why bloody leak to Sky News?
  • This Christmas gimmick is insane. Many areas will have to endure weeks in Tier 3 just to “pay for” this nonsense over Christmas. FFS.

    The Christmas bubble idea seems to be much tighter than I expected. Seems quite moderate and reasonable to be frank - people would be doing this anyway!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    edited November 2020

    Sky News

    No one in tier 1

    My guess, almost no one in tier 2 either, maybe Cornwall, Devon and Norfolk.

    I think Cornwall and Suffolk and the Isle of Wight could still end up in Tier 1, very few cases there
  • I don't think that there is a single person on this earth, not one, who in 2016 thought that Brexit would be implemented in anything like as disastrous a fashion as seems likely to happen on Jan 1st.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    He has made a prediction, as have you. We will see.

    You are a diehard Leadership line follower, whatever that line might be, if we’re trading diehards.
  • IshmaelZ said:

    Sky News

    No one in tier 1

    My guess, almost no one in tier 2 either, maybe Cornwall, Devon and Norfolk.

    Why bloody have a tier 1 then, and why bloody leak to Sky News?
    Tier 1 could be used in the future

    Currently on Malmesbury's table he posts here every day every single part of the country is colour-shaded red. Once they're white then Tier 1 might be considered more appropriate I imagine?
  • Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    He has made a prediction, as have you. We will see.

    You are a diehard Leadership line follower, whatever that line might be, if we’re trading diehards.
    Or whatever he thinks that line will be, even if he misunderstands it and its made clear he's misunderstood then he still rigorously sticks to it.
  • I don't think that there is a single person on this earth, not one, who in 2016 thought that Brexit would be implemented in anything like as disastrous a fashion as seems likely to happen on Jan 1st.

    Don't be ridiculous Mr Nabavi.

    Brexit has gone much better than you were claiming it would in 2016.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    He has made a prediction, as have you. We will see.

    You are a diehard Leadership line follower, whatever that line might be, if we’re trading diehards.
    So what, does not change the fact he has an ideological agenda against a Canada style FTA let alone No Deal
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    I am saying what I think will happen, not what I want to happen.

    I am so far from being a diehard remainer that I effectively abstained from voting in 2016 (I voted, but in accordance with the instructions of my 17 year old son). I thought it didn't really matter, because in the event of a Leave vote, civilised adults would negotiate a civilised EEA type arrangement that I'd be perfectly happy with. What a moron.
    So you backed either Remain or at most a BINO Brexit, you just have an ideological agenda against a Canada style FTA let alone No Deal
    You flatter me in claiming I have an ideological agenda about anything, actually. I just resent being pointlessly fucked about, inconvenienced and impoverished. Lots of people resent those things. Lots of people will perceive next year, rightly or wrongly, that brexit has done precisely those things to them.
  • HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    Surely the answer is that we simply don't know.

    Assuming there's a Deal, there's likely to be a boost for the government and for the concept of Brexit.

    But.

    That deal is likely to involve the UK having made concessions, in which case some parts of the Brexit coalition will be disappointed.

    The sort of deal the government wants involves border frictions. I don't think many (any?) of us really understand what that looks like, and even if it goes well that's likely to be a cold shower of reality. Maybe it will be brief and invigorating. Maybe.

    And the Brexit Bonus on Boris's Big Bus... it was always a bit notional- the cost of a frictiony border is going to eat up somewhere between most of the hundreds of millions a week and all of it plus some more. But even if the government does pump that cash into public services, it will get swamped by Rishi's book balancing. "Smaller cuts" is a tough sell.

    And, at the end of the day, politics is a game all about ungrateful so-and-sos. Talk to any councillor or MP. In any change, there are winners and losers. The disappointment of those who lose is always stronger than the gratitude of the winners. And if you can't stand that joke, you shouldn't join up.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    He has made a prediction, as have you. We will see.

    You are a diehard Leadership line follower, whatever that line might be, if we’re trading diehards.
    Or whatever he thinks that line will be, even if he misunderstands it and its made clear he's misunderstood then he still rigorously sticks to it.
    At least I can say I did not vote for Farage, unlike you
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598

    This Christmas gimmick is insane. Many areas will have to endure weeks in Tier 3 just to “pay for” this nonsense over Christmas. FFS.

    The Christmas bubble idea seems to be much tighter than I expected. Seems quite moderate and reasonable to be frank - people would be doing this anyway!
    Give an inch, take a mile?

    Should have just been Rule of Six (and people would have then stretched that!)
  • HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    He has made a prediction, as have you. We will see.

    You are a diehard Leadership line follower, whatever that line might be, if we’re trading diehards.
    Or whatever he thinks that line will be, even if he misunderstands it and its made clear he's misunderstood then he still rigorously sticks to it.
    At least I can say I did not vote for Farage, unlike you
    It's to Philip's credit that he reconsiders his vote each election. I don't agree with his choices, but give me a flawed human any day over a robot.
  • isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
    Either that or you sit on the stinky beach saying "Lovely delicious fragrant sewage. And the D+V is doing wonders for my weight-loss plan."
  • isamisam Posts: 40,722

    isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
    That’s not the point at all. If you have booked but haven’t yet gone, and have suffered all the aggravation of people trying to stop you going as per the hypothetical scenario I set out, you are bound to get a fair percentage of people thinking booking it in the first place wasn’t worth the hassle.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    @Philip_Thompson

    I’m one of the more anti lockdown types on PB, insofar as I’ve long argued that absent a vaccine we have to learn to live with the virus somehow.

    Yet now we have vaccines it seems incredibly stupid to me to relax the rules over Christmas, and to pay for it with harsher rules in December and January.

    I mean, we need to get over Christmas, not fetishise it in this way.
  • FPT

    kle4 said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    HYUFD said:

    He has a majority of 80 and can get it through regardless, the diehards can go off and join Farage
    The blue collar Tories I rub shoulders with will see the trade deal as Johnson's second Falklands moment in a week (after the vaccine).

    I wonder if I can get a refund for all that "no deal" bog roll?
    The whole of Brexit is a Falklands moment for Britain.
    As in, Argentina's Falklands moment.
    The Conservatives will see a double digit poll lead on a deal with the EU, irrespective of how inferior it is to our still being a member of the EU.
    Why is that? I don't see intractible remainers holding up their hands and thinking it ok to return to the Tories as a deal was had after all, perhaps they'd gain a few points back from those who had feared incompetence would mean no deal, but against that you have the Faragist element. Will there really be that much of a change?

    I do take Benpointer's, er, point, that in conjunction with a positive plan for vaccine rollout perhaps there will be a larger movement, though I'd also agree with him about longer term prospects in terms of Labour leads - though if it will be enough, I am uncertain of.
    I don't think the lead will be long lasting. Relief at a vaccine and a trade deal should boost Johnson, however it will soon subside at the realisation that we are well and truly up the creek.
    I'm quite optimistic for next summer onwards.

    I think we could have a Roaring Twenties coming up.
    Yeah but you've been locked up inside with your laptop on PB every day. I have been out working in the real world and it looks grim. Really, really grim. Unless of course you are just talking about the weather?
    Is it a bit like the Fall Out game out there? I am hoping by the summer I can unlock the vault door and go and find out.
    Don't, it's like "Mad Max, Beyond Thunderdome" outside!
    I really haven't been out much since March, certainly not to anywhere with significant people, just for driving and walks in fairly remote countryside. I think I will be in for a bit of sensory overload as and when things start to open up and venture out to population centres.
    Other than people wearing masks, not much looks to have changed. More shops boarded up in High Streets, hardly any '20 and '70 plate cars, but on the face of it much as before.

    The economic picture looks horrendous. I am in a business which is shielded by a statutory requirement for the service I provide. I have been busy, but the penny dropped a few weeks ago that almost all the work I am currently engaged in, was generated before lockdown.

    Philip's assumption that it will all be fine and dandy by next summer is for the birds. We might see a "v" shaped recovery in the spring, although I suspect that will be simply indicate a swallow rather than a summer. The economy, across the developed world has been structurally devastated. I am not sure we have noticed that yet.
    I never said "all will be find and dandy by next summer".

    There is a lot of damage that needs to unwind and that will be upsetting for a lot of families and businesses. But there is also a lot of pent-up demand. A lot of companies may go out of business in the next six months but there will also be a lot of customers eager and waiting for businesses that survive until the summer - or new businesses that pop up from next summer onwards.

    The economy has taken a battering, but after the battering will be a period of growth more considerable than any in living memory I predict. But for anyone who gets into that period having lost their business and their life's savings that won't be much sympathy to them.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    He has made a prediction, as have you. We will see.

    You are a diehard Leadership line follower, whatever that line might be, if we’re trading diehards.
    Or whatever he thinks that line will be, even if he misunderstands it and its made clear he's misunderstood then he still rigorously sticks to it.
    At least I can say I did not vote for Farage, unlike you
    It's to Philip's credit that he reconsiders his vote each election. I don't agree with his choices, but give me a flawed human any day over a robot.
    You can reconsider your choices or do a protest vote without ever voting for Farage, yet he still voted for Farage last year
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    This Christmas gimmick is insane. Many areas will have to endure weeks in Tier 3 just to “pay for” this nonsense over Christmas. FFS.

    The Christmas bubble idea seems to be much tighter than I expected. Seems quite moderate and reasonable to be frank - people would be doing this anyway!
    Give an inch, take a mile?

    Should have just been Rule of Six (and people would have then stretched that!)
    My three household Christmas is 6 people anyway.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    @Philip_Thompson

    I’m one of the more anti lockdown types on PB, insofar as I’ve long argued that absent a vaccine we have to learn to live with the virus somehow.

    Yet now we have vaccines it seems incredibly stupid to me to relax the rules over Christmas, and to pay for it with harsher rules in December and January.

    I mean, we need to get over Christmas, not fetishise it in this way.

    I disagree. We in the North East have already gone 2 months without being able to socialise at all. By Christmas it will be over 3. The mental health toll is enormous, especially for those who live alone.
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    That depends on what life is like under that deal. We don’t know yet. It certainly wont be “business as usual”.
    In the bigger picture of line drawn through many polls, support for brexit will be a downward line forever now, till the tipping point vast majority of voters will say, why are we putting up with a brexit we loath? and pro brexit parties both of the time, and whose history enabled it, will be finished as political force.
    What utter rubbish, most voters over 45 voted for Brexit
    And you are not taking this support ongoing for ever for granted? 😂

    Look at the foundations of brexit and foundations of what is undermining it to realise what will happen.

    There is no way England’s destiny to be part of a federal Europe can be stopped. The short term and fragile brexitgasm isn’t going to halt the outcome.

    Brexit doesn’t have solid foundations in such things as economics, history, culture, sovereignty, all brexit is based on is politics. And in world of politics there can be an extremely popular platform, though wind the clock forward, only a handful of years sometimes, and this same popular platform can be the most unpopular platform.

    I could be speaking here from someone who bought into brexit, and voted for it. But I still recognise it’s utterly doomed, and likely take its signatories to the bottom with it.

    [insert picture of the titanic]
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    If this is accurate, it is disappointing.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewE_Dunn/status/1331279131695263744
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    isam said:

    isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
    That’s not the point at all. If you have booked but haven’t yet gone, and have suffered all the aggravation of people trying to stop you going as per the hypothetical scenario I set out, you are bound to get a fair percentage of people thinking booking it in the first place wasn’t worth the hassle.
    We are out of Europe - we’ve left. How much more leaving do we have to do before we can say whether we like where we have gone?
  • Nigelb said:

    If this is accurate, it is disappointing.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewE_Dunn/status/1331279131695263744

    Quick recalculation... and I make it...
    70% effective ;)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    He has made a prediction, as have you. We will see.

    You are a diehard Leadership line follower, whatever that line might be, if we’re trading diehards.
    So what, does not change the fact he has an ideological agenda against a Canada style FTA let alone No Deal
    No, as he has pointed out, it’s a pragmatic objection.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    That depends on what life is like under that deal. We don’t know yet. It certainly wont be “business as usual”.
    In the bigger picture of line drawn through many polls, support for brexit will be a downward line forever now, till the tipping point vast majority of voters will say, why are we putting up with a brexit we loath? and pro brexit parties both of the time, and whose history enabled it, will be finished as political force.
    What utter rubbish, most voters over 45 voted for Brexit
    And you are not taking this support ongoing for ever for granted? 😂

    Look at the foundations of brexit and foundations of what is undermining it to realise what will happen.

    There is no way England’s destiny to be part of a federal Europe can be stopped. The short term and fragile brexitgasm isn’t going to halt the outcome.

    Brexit doesn’t have solid foundations in such things as economics, history, culture, sovereignty, all brexit is based on is politics. And in world of politics there can be an extremely popular platform, though wind the clock forward, only a handful of years sometimes, and this same popular platform can be the most unpopular platform.

    I could be speaking here from someone who bought into brexit, and voted for it. But I still recognise it’s utterly doomed, and likely take its signatories to the bottom with it.

    [insert picture of the titanic]
    What utter rubbish, we defeated potential invasion by Philip II, Napoleon and Hitler to avoid becoming part of a unified European Empire and even when in the EU we never joined the Euro or Schengen, the most we would ever rejoin now is the EEA and only under a Labour government
  • @Philip_Thompson

    I’m one of the more anti lockdown types on PB, insofar as I’ve long argued that absent a vaccine we have to learn to live with the virus somehow.

    Yet now we have vaccines it seems incredibly stupid to me to relax the rules over Christmas, and to pay for it with harsher rules in December and January.

    I mean, we need to get over Christmas, not fetishise it in this way.

    I agree. But I think the Christmas Bubble idea is probably a lot stricter than what many people would have been thinking.

    Every Christmas normally I would see all my relatives that we could, touring around houses and stopping at them each for an hour or so then moving on to the next one.

    What has been announced today is barely more than a "support bubble". If I wanted to go and see my family (which I'd already decided I wasn't going to do) then the rules actually make it clear that even with the so-called relaxation of the rules that still is NOT allowed.

    What is allowed is a very limited, non-exchangeable bubble. So after seeing that we're thinking of maybe seeing my wife's sister for Christmas and that is it. No big family gathering, no seeing parents or grandparents or great grandparents. Just the one visit.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,722

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
    That’s not the point at all. If you have booked but haven’t yet gone, and have suffered all the aggravation of people trying to stop you going as per the hypothetical scenario I set out, you are bound to get a fair percentage of people thinking booking it in the first place wasn’t worth the hassle.
    We are out of Europe - we’ve left. How much more leaving do we have to do before we can say whether we like where we have gone?
    Once the deal is done or not is when most people will consider the leaving to be over I’d say.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598

    @Philip_Thompson

    I’m one of the more anti lockdown types on PB, insofar as I’ve long argued that absent a vaccine we have to learn to live with the virus somehow.

    Yet now we have vaccines it seems incredibly stupid to me to relax the rules over Christmas, and to pay for it with harsher rules in December and January.

    I mean, we need to get over Christmas, not fetishise it in this way.

    I disagree. We in the North East have already gone 2 months without being able to socialise at all. By Christmas it will be over 3. The mental health toll is enormous, especially for those who live alone.
    Sure, so go into Tier 2 rather than have a daft Christmas gimmick which will keep you in Tier 3 until Valentine’s Day!
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    I am saying what I think will happen, not what I want to happen.

    I am so far from being a diehard remainer that I effectively abstained from voting in 2016 (I voted, but in accordance with the instructions of my 17 year old son). I thought it didn't really matter, because in the event of a Leave vote, civilised adults would negotiate a civilised EEA type arrangement that I'd be perfectly happy with. What a moron.
    So you backed either Remain or at most a BINO Brexit, you just have an ideological agenda against a Canada style FTA let alone No Deal
    You flatter me in claiming I have an ideological agenda about anything, actually. I just resent being pointlessly fucked about, inconvenienced and impoverished. Lots of people resent those things. Lots of people will perceive next year, rightly or wrongly, that brexit has done precisely those things to them.
    Agreed.
    I was a bit more favourably inclined to our continued membership than you, but that’s pretty well my position.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    Nigelb said:

    If this is accurate, it is disappointing.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewE_Dunn/status/1331279131695263744

    Why? The obvious policy is to give the Pfizer vaccine to the elderly and infirm then smash the cheap AZ vaccine out to the young and fit.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072

    @Philip_Thompson

    I’m one of the more anti lockdown types on PB, insofar as I’ve long argued that absent a vaccine we have to learn to live with the virus somehow.

    Yet now we have vaccines it seems incredibly stupid to me to relax the rules over Christmas, and to pay for it with harsher rules in December and January.

    I mean, we need to get over Christmas, not fetishise it in this way.

    I disagree. We in the North East have already gone 2 months without being able to socialise at all. By Christmas it will be over 3. The mental health toll is enormous, especially for those who live alone.
    Sure, so go into Tier 2 rather than have a daft Christmas gimmick which will keep you in Tier 3 until Valentine’s Day!
    Tier 2 effectively bans socialising also - especially during a cold winter.

    So no, that is not a solution.
  • I don't think that there is a single person on this earth, not one, who in 2016 thought that Brexit would be implemented in anything like as disastrous a fashion as seems likely to happen on Jan 1st.

    Don't be ridiculous Mr Nabavi.

    Brexit has gone much better than you were claiming it would in 2016.
    I'm glad you think so, but I hate to tell you that for all practical purposes Brexit hasn't started yet. We are still in the Customs Union. We are still in the Single Market. We are still follow EU regulations. We still have freedom of movement. We are still in the EU VAT scheme, We are still following EU state aid rules. We are still subject to ECJ rules. The Boris border in the Irish sea doesn't exist yet. The crisis over the Irish protocol hasn't started. No customs checks are being done in Dover. EU fishermen can still fish in British waters. UK fishermen can still land their catches in EU ports. The EU chemicals regulations still allow industry to operate. There are no tariffs. There are no vet certificates required for selling lamb to EU countries.

    All that will disappear overnight on Dec 31st.

    And there are no working computer systems, no customs agents in place, no detailed administrative processes established, nowhere for the lorries to wait, and companies are completely unprepared for the change - unsurprisingly, because not only are they kiboshed by a global pandemic, but even more importantly they don't have a clue what is going to be required in 8 weeks time, or what tariffs will apply, or what forms they will have to fill in.

    There has never, in living memory, been a self-inflicted disaster on this scale. It is absolutely staggering - far, far worse than the worst scenarios anyone was contemplating in 2016.
    Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've been predicting disaster just over the horizon for years now. The horizon never comes.

    This time next year when life hasn't collapsed and we aren't in a catastrophe, what is your excuse reason going to be for disaster still being over the horizon?
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Roy_G_Biv said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    He has made a prediction, as have you. We will see.

    You are a diehard Leadership line follower, whatever that line might be, if we’re trading diehards.
    Or whatever he thinks that line will be, even if he misunderstands it and its made clear he's misunderstood then he still rigorously sticks to it.
    At least I can say I did not vote for Farage, unlike you
    It's to Philip's credit that he reconsiders his vote each election. I don't agree with his choices, but give me a flawed human any day over a robot.
    I wonder how you tell the difference?
  • HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    That depends on what life is like under that deal. We don’t know yet. It certainly wont be “business as usual”.
    In the bigger picture of line drawn through many polls, support for brexit will be a downward line forever now, till the tipping point vast majority of voters will say, why are we putting up with a brexit we loath? and pro brexit parties both of the time, and whose history enabled it, will be finished as political force.
    What utter rubbish, most voters over 45 voted for Brexit
    And you are not taking this support ongoing for ever for granted? 😂

    Look at the foundations of brexit and foundations of what is undermining it to realise what will happen.

    There is no way England’s destiny to be part of a federal Europe can be stopped. The short term and fragile brexitgasm isn’t going to halt the outcome.

    Brexit doesn’t have solid foundations in such things as economics, history, culture, sovereignty, all brexit is based on is politics. And in world of politics there can be an extremely popular platform, though wind the clock forward, only a handful of years sometimes, and this same popular platform can be the most unpopular platform.

    I could be speaking here from someone who bought into brexit, and voted for it. But I still recognise it’s utterly doomed, and likely take its signatories to the bottom with it.

    [insert picture of the titanic]
    What utter rubbish, we defeated potential invasion by Philip II, Napoleon and Hitler to avoid becoming part of a unified European Empire and even when in the EU we never joined the Euro or Schengen, the most we would ever rejoin now is the EEA and only under a Labour government
    "we defeated potential invasion by Philip II, Napoleon and Hitler to avoid becoming part of a unified European Empire"
    You sound exactly like a Faragist.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557

    Nigelb said:

    If this is accurate, it is disappointing.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewE_Dunn/status/1331279131695263744

    Why? The obvious policy is to give the Pfizer vaccine to the elderly and infirm then smash the cheap AZ vaccine out to the young and fit.
    Because a cheap, 90% effective vaccine, which can be deployed world wide, would have been amazing.
    The 70% figure is perfectly practicable, though, and there is a lot more data to come.
  • HYUFD said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    He has made a prediction, as have you. We will see.

    You are a diehard Leadership line follower, whatever that line might be, if we’re trading diehards.
    Or whatever he thinks that line will be, even if he misunderstands it and its made clear he's misunderstood then he still rigorously sticks to it.
    At least I can say I did not vote for Farage, unlike you
    It's to Philip's credit that he reconsiders his vote each election. I don't agree with his choices, but give me a flawed human any day over a robot.
    You can reconsider your choices or do a protest vote without ever voting for Farage, yet he still voted for Farage last year
    And you voted for Theresa May! 🤦🏻‍♂️
  • gealbhangealbhan Posts: 2,362
    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    That depends on what life is like under that deal. We don’t know yet. It certainly wont be “business as usual”.
    In the bigger picture of line drawn through many polls, support for brexit will be a downward line forever now, till the tipping point vast majority of voters will say, why are we putting up with a brexit we loath? and pro brexit parties both of the time, and whose history enabled it, will be finished as political force.
    What utter rubbish, most voters over 45 voted for Brexit
    And you are not taking this support ongoing for ever for granted? 😂

    Look at the foundations of brexit and foundations of what is undermining it to realise what will happen.

    There is no way England’s destiny to be part of a federal Europe can be stopped. The short term and fragile brexitgasm isn’t going to halt the outcome.

    Brexit doesn’t have solid foundations in such things as economics, history, culture, sovereignty, all brexit is based on is politics. And in world of politics there can be an extremely popular platform, though wind the clock forward, only a handful of years sometimes, and this same popular platform can be the most unpopular platform.

    I could be speaking here from someone who bought into brexit, and voted for it. But I still recognise it’s utterly doomed, and likely take its signatories to the bottom with it.

    [insert picture of the titanic]
    What utter rubbish, we defeated potential invasion by Philip II, Napoleon and Hitler to avoid becoming part of a unified European Empire and even when in the EU we never joined the Euro or Schengen, the most we would ever rejoin now is the EEA and only under a Labour government
    No. You are getting utterly confused. Bringing party politics into it. Churchill saw our place in a federal Europe. Heath too. Bringing Second World War and Hitler into it, like he represents the federal EU position? 😂. History is against you. The economics undermines brexit more every day post jan 1st 2021, the grass always greener on the other side. Sovereignty you don’t understand at all, not something you Keep locked in a cellar, it’s a currency. We pool some in NATO to buy some security for example, every trade deal we spend some. A nation is based on culture, not borders with watch posts and patrol vessels.
  • I don't think that there is a single person on this earth, not one, who in 2016 thought that Brexit would be implemented in anything like as disastrous a fashion as seems likely to happen on Jan 1st.

    Don't be ridiculous Mr Nabavi.

    Brexit has gone much better than you were claiming it would in 2016.
    I'm glad you think so, but I hate to tell you that for all practical purposes Brexit hasn't started yet. We are still in the Customs Union. We are still in the Single Market. We are still follow EU regulations. We still have freedom of movement. We are still in the EU VAT scheme, We are still following EU state aid rules. We are still subject to ECJ rules. The Boris border in the Irish sea doesn't exist yet. The crisis over the Irish protocol hasn't started. No customs checks are being done in Dover. EU fishermen can still fish in British waters. UK fishermen can still land their catches in EU ports. The EU chemicals regulations still allow industry to operate. There are no tariffs. There are no vet certificates required for selling lamb to EU countries.

    All that will disappear overnight on Dec 31st.

    And there are no working computer systems, no customs agents in place, no detailed administrative processes established, nowhere for the lorries to wait, and companies are completely unprepared for the change - unsurprisingly, because not only are they kiboshed by a global pandemic, but even more importantly they don't have a clue what is going to be required in 8 weeks time, or what tariffs will apply, or what forms they will have to fill in.

    There has never, in living memory, been a self-inflicted disaster on this scale. It is absolutely staggering - far, far worse than the worst scenarios anyone was contemplating in 2016.
    Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've been predicting disaster just over the horizon for years now. The horizon never comes.

    This time next year when life hasn't collapsed and we aren't in a catastrophe, what is your excuse reason going to be for disaster still being over the horizon?
    The horizon is coming on Jan 1st. As at now, there are two possibilities: disaster, or major disaster. It's unclear which Boris will go for - he's such a ditherer that he probably doesn't know himself.

    We can do review the degree of collapse at the end of January/early February.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598
    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
    That’s not the point at all. If you have booked but haven’t yet gone, and have suffered all the aggravation of people trying to stop you going as per the hypothetical scenario I set out, you are bound to get a fair percentage of people thinking booking it in the first place wasn’t worth the hassle.
    We are out of Europe - we’ve left. How much more leaving do we have to do before we can say whether we like where we have gone?
    Once the deal is done or not is when most people will consider the leaving to be over I’d say.
    Fair enough.

    My view is that I couldn’t care less about Brexit anymore - I’m bored of the whole thing and just want something - anything - sorted so we don’t need to hear about it anymore.

    Yet I fear we will be in state of perjury for ever more, with hardcore Brexiteers arguing we have never left, and hardcore Remainers saying the battle goes on.

    It’s fucking exhausting.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557
    Apart from anything else, this could have been in the UK.

    Tesla To Build Massive 100+ GWh Battery Plant At Giga Berlin
    https://insideevs.com/news/456347/tesla-massive-100-gwh-battery-plant-germany/
  • isam said:

    isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
    That’s not the point at all. If you have booked but haven’t yet gone, and have suffered all the aggravation of people trying to stop you going as per the hypothetical scenario I set out, you are bound to get a fair percentage of people thinking booking it in the first place wasn’t worth the hassle.
    We are out of Europe - we’ve left. How much more leaving do we have to do before we can say whether we like where we have gone?
    We haven't really though. We're still following all their rules as it stands.

    Its like being in a house-share and giving notice that you're quitting so you cease to be a tenant with the rest of your housemates, only to say to your former house mates that since you have nowhere to live and they have a spare home would they mind if you sublet that room for a year?

    Is that really leaving?
  • isamisam Posts: 40,722
    How would the 2015 Election have gone if Cameron had not offered a referendum?
  • Nigelb said:

    Apart from anything else, this could have been in the UK.

    Tesla To Build Massive 100+ GWh Battery Plant At Giga Berlin
    https://insideevs.com/news/456347/tesla-massive-100-gwh-battery-plant-germany/

    And it still might be.

    Do you think if we'd voted Remain then cars wouldn't have been built in Germany anymore? 😕
  • TimTTimT Posts: 6,328
    Nigelb said:

    Nigelb said:

    If this is accurate, it is disappointing.
    https://twitter.com/AndrewE_Dunn/status/1331279131695263744

    Why? The obvious policy is to give the Pfizer vaccine to the elderly and infirm then smash the cheap AZ vaccine out to the young and fit.
    Because a cheap, 90% effective vaccine, which can be deployed world wide, would have been amazing.
    The 70% figure is perfectly practicable, though, and there is a lot more data to come.
    There are vacci

    @Philip_Thompson

    I’m one of the more anti lockdown types on PB, insofar as I’ve long argued that absent a vaccine we have to learn to live with the virus somehow.

    Yet now we have vaccines it seems incredibly stupid to me to relax the rules over Christmas, and to pay for it with harsher rules in December and January.

    I mean, we need to get over Christmas, not fetishise it in this way.

    Absolutely agree - having an end-game of vaccination shifts the cost-benefit analysis of stronger containment measures vs learn to live with it firmly towards the limited-period containment side.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598

    @Philip_Thompson

    I’m one of the more anti lockdown types on PB, insofar as I’ve long argued that absent a vaccine we have to learn to live with the virus somehow.

    Yet now we have vaccines it seems incredibly stupid to me to relax the rules over Christmas, and to pay for it with harsher rules in December and January.

    I mean, we need to get over Christmas, not fetishise it in this way.

    I disagree. We in the North East have already gone 2 months without being able to socialise at all. By Christmas it will be over 3. The mental health toll is enormous, especially for those who live alone.
    Sure, so go into Tier 2 rather than have a daft Christmas gimmick which will keep you in Tier 3 until Valentine’s Day!
    Tier 2 effectively bans socialising also - especially during a cold winter.

    So no, that is not a solution.
    Outdoor heaters I guess. I admit it’s still pretty grim but fair better than T3.
  • I don't think that there is a single person on this earth, not one, who in 2016 thought that Brexit would be implemented in anything like as disastrous a fashion as seems likely to happen on Jan 1st.

    Don't be ridiculous Mr Nabavi.

    Brexit has gone much better than you were claiming it would in 2016.
    I'm glad you think so, but I hate to tell you that for all practical purposes Brexit hasn't started yet. We are still in the Customs Union. We are still in the Single Market. We are still follow EU regulations. We still have freedom of movement. We are still in the EU VAT scheme, We are still following EU state aid rules. We are still subject to ECJ rules. The Boris border in the Irish sea doesn't exist yet. The crisis over the Irish protocol hasn't started. No customs checks are being done in Dover. EU fishermen can still fish in British waters. UK fishermen can still land their catches in EU ports. The EU chemicals regulations still allow industry to operate. There are no tariffs. There are no vet certificates required for selling lamb to EU countries.

    All that will disappear overnight on Dec 31st.

    And there are no working computer systems, no customs agents in place, no detailed administrative processes established, nowhere for the lorries to wait, and companies are completely unprepared for the change - unsurprisingly, because not only are they kiboshed by a global pandemic, but even more importantly they don't have a clue what is going to be required in 8 weeks time, or what tariffs will apply, or what forms they will have to fill in.

    There has never, in living memory, been a self-inflicted disaster on this scale. It is absolutely staggering - far, far worse than the worst scenarios anyone was contemplating in 2016.
    Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've been predicting disaster just over the horizon for years now. The horizon never comes.

    This time next year when life hasn't collapsed and we aren't in a catastrophe, what is your excuse reason going to be for disaster still being over the horizon?
    The horizon is coming on Jan 1st. As at now, there are two possibilities: disaster, or major disaster. It's unclear which Boris will go for - he's such a ditherer that he probably doesn't know himself.

    We can do review the degree of collapse at the end of January/early February.
    Can't wait.

    I'm putting my colours on the mast. There will be disruption in H1 2021 but by this time next year (Q3 and Q4 2021) we will be growing fast starting a period of sustained economic growth.
  • I love the headline on the article at the bottom of the page...
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 61,557

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
    That’s not the point at all. If you have booked but haven’t yet gone, and have suffered all the aggravation of people trying to stop you going as per the hypothetical scenario I set out, you are bound to get a fair percentage of people thinking booking it in the first place wasn’t worth the hassle.
    We are out of Europe - we’ve left. How much more leaving do we have to do before we can say whether we like where we have gone?
    We haven't really though. We're still following all their rules as it stands.

    Its like being in a house-share and giving notice that you're quitting so you cease to be a tenant with the rest of your housemates, only to say to your former house mates that since you have nowhere to live and they have a spare home would they mind if you sublet that room for a year?

    Is that really leaving?
    We have left, as a matter of law.
    And four years after the vote you’re still trading meaningless metaphors.
  • £4bn?

    Sounds like peanuts after the year we've had to be honest.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2020
    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
    That’s not the point at all. If you have booked but haven’t yet gone, and have suffered all the aggravation of people trying to stop you going as per the hypothetical scenario I set out, you are bound to get a fair percentage of people thinking booking it in the first place wasn’t worth the hassle.
    We are out of Europe - we’ve left. How much more leaving do we have to do before we can say whether we like where we have gone?
    We haven't really though. We're still following all their rules as it stands.

    Its like being in a house-share and giving notice that you're quitting so you cease to be a tenant with the rest of your housemates, only to say to your former house mates that since you have nowhere to live and they have a spare home would they mind if you sublet that room for a year?

    Is that really leaving?
    We have left, as a matter of law.
    And four years after the vote you’re still trading meaningless metaphors.
    Are you new to the concept of de jure versus de facto?

    We have left de jure but we have not left de facto - that is about the only thing that @Richard_Nabavi and I agree on I believe.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,722

    isam said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
    That’s not the point at all. If you have booked but haven’t yet gone, and have suffered all the aggravation of people trying to stop you going as per the hypothetical scenario I set out, you are bound to get a fair percentage of people thinking booking it in the first place wasn’t worth the hassle.
    We are out of Europe - we’ve left. How much more leaving do we have to do before we can say whether we like where we have gone?
    Once the deal is done or not is when most people will consider the leaving to be over I’d say.
    Fair enough.

    My view is that I couldn’t care less about Brexit anymore - I’m bored of the whole thing and just want something - anything - sorted so we don’t need to hear about it anymore.

    Yet I fear we will be in state of perjury for ever more, with hardcore Brexiteers arguing we have never left, and hardcore Remainers saying the battle goes on.

    It’s fucking exhausting.
    I’d say most people agree with you, hence the polling.

    The hardcore Brexiteers are those who wanted to leave in the 90s over things that most of the public don’t really care about (metric system etc). Most people voted Leave because of Blair’s A8 accession policy, but those people have more on their plate now with the economic crisis caused by the pandemic, so they probably don’t care either now.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    edited November 2020

    I don't think that there is a single person on this earth, not one, who in 2016 thought that Brexit would be implemented in anything like as disastrous a fashion as seems likely to happen on Jan 1st.

    Don't be ridiculous Mr Nabavi.

    Brexit has gone much better than you were claiming it would in 2016.
    I'm glad you think so, but I hate to tell you that for all practical purposes Brexit hasn't started yet. We are still in the Customs Union. We are still in the Single Market. We are still follow EU regulations. We still have freedom of movement. We are still in the EU VAT scheme, We are still following EU state aid rules. We are still subject to ECJ rules. The Boris border in the Irish sea doesn't exist yet. The crisis over the Irish protocol hasn't started. No customs checks are being done in Dover. EU fishermen can still fish in British waters. UK fishermen can still land their catches in EU ports. The EU chemicals regulations still allow industry to operate. There are no tariffs. There are no vet certificates required for selling lamb to EU countries.

    All that will disappear overnight on Dec 31st.

    And there are no working computer systems, no customs agents in place, no detailed administrative processes established, nowhere for the lorries to wait, and companies are completely unprepared for the change - unsurprisingly, because not only are they kiboshed by a global pandemic, but even more importantly they don't have a clue what is going to be required in 8 weeks time, or what tariffs will apply, or what forms they will have to fill in.

    There has never, in living memory, been a self-inflicted disaster on this scale. It is absolutely staggering - far, far worse than the worst scenarios anyone was contemplating in 2016.
    Yeah, yeah, yeah. You've been predicting disaster just over the horizon for years now. The horizon never comes.

    This time next year when life hasn't collapsed and we aren't in a catastrophe, what is your excuse reason going to be for disaster still being over the horizon?
    The horizon is coming on Jan 1st. As at now, there are two possibilities: disaster, or major disaster. It's unclear which Boris will go for - he's such a ditherer that he probably doesn't know himself.

    We can do review the degree of collapse at the end of January/early February.
    Can't wait.

    I'm putting my colours on the mast. There will be disruption in H1 2021 but by this time next year (Q3 and Q4 2021) we will be growing fast starting a period of sustained economic growth.
    The point is that, even if you think that Brexit is a good idea in the longer term, it is impossible to imagine it being more incompetently implemented than Boris is managing, Crashing into chaos, in the middle of a pandemic, with just days to go between knowing what the relationship will be and companies and civil servants having to implement it, with Xmas in the middle, and no computer systems in place - how on earth could it have been done worse?
    Of course it is.

    The pandemic is perfect cover for this to be happening - trade and transport is suppressed and support exists that would not normally. We are lucky this is occuring during a pandemic.

    Negotiations with the EU were always going to go until 23:59 metaphorically. Anyone who didn't expect that hasn't paid any attention whatsoever to any talks within Europe within my lifetime at least.

    It could have been much worse. Its going as well as I could have hoped for so far.

    EDIT: "lucky with a pandemic" sounds awful, wish I hadn't phrased it that way. I mean if you're going to have Brexit and going to have a pandemic then lucky they coincidentally came together so can be over and done with together. Having one after the other would be worse.
  • Roy_G_BivRoy_G_Biv Posts: 998
    edited November 2020
    Nigelb said:

    isam said:

    isam said:

    Of course people think Brexit is a bad idea; the filibustering by MPs from Jun 2016-Dec 2019 in order to try and stop it was bound to make people sick of it.

    If I booked the holiday of a lifetime and the travel agent phoned me every other day afterward saying it was delayed/might be cancelled altogether/you’ll have to come back in and talk it over with us/just because you booked it doesn’t mean we have to let you go/the resort isn’t built/there’s a worldwide pandemic and we’re not insured, I think I’d wish I hadn’t bothered

    If you decide to go all the same, and when you get there you find that the resort isn't built, the beach is covered in sewage, you get nasty food poisoning and your insurance company refuses to pay up because you ignored the official advice, do you persist in blaming the travel agent for recommending cancellation?
    That’s not the point at all. If you have booked but haven’t yet gone, and have suffered all the aggravation of people trying to stop you going as per the hypothetical scenario I set out, you are bound to get a fair percentage of people thinking booking it in the first place wasn’t worth the hassle.
    We are out of Europe - we’ve left. How much more leaving do we have to do before we can say whether we like where we have gone?
    We haven't really though. We're still following all their rules as it stands.

    Its like being in a house-share and giving notice that you're quitting so you cease to be a tenant with the rest of your housemates, only to say to your former house mates that since you have nowhere to live and they have a spare home would they mind if you sublet that room for a year?

    Is that really leaving?
    We have left, as a matter of law.
    And four years after the vote you’re still trading meaningless metaphors.
    But trading meaningless metaphors as a former member of the golf club, is like getting a divorce and still expecting be able to sell your goods in the market even though the marketplace has rules about seeing your children every second weekend but only on the fairway of the 14th.
    And do we really think that the German playing-card manufacturers will allow the neoliberalcapitalosocialist fascist-communist anarchy dictatorship to stop trade when we already hold all the 4D chess pieces?
    It's just like the Roman-Aztec war all over again, except this time no victory is better than a bad victory, which is why Churchill wanted to keep us out of the War of the Second Coalition in the first place. He knew better than most that the unelected Joan of Arc never had her accounts audited.
  • twitter.com/FinancialTimes/status/1331379590816796672?s=20

    What was all the embargo stuff about? That has been reported everywhere else already.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709

    HYUFD said:

    Roy_G_Biv said:

    HYUFD said:

    Nigelb said:

    HYUFD said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    No they won't. They will remain majority "wrong" for at least the whole of 2021 whether there is a deal or not.

    A falsifiable prediction for you.
    No they won't, you are just a diehard Remainer that is all, for whom only no Brexit at all will do
    He has made a prediction, as have you. We will see.

    You are a diehard Leadership line follower, whatever that line might be, if we’re trading diehards.
    Or whatever he thinks that line will be, even if he misunderstands it and its made clear he's misunderstood then he still rigorously sticks to it.
    At least I can say I did not vote for Farage, unlike you
    It's to Philip's credit that he reconsiders his vote each election. I don't agree with his choices, but give me a flawed human any day over a robot.
    You can reconsider your choices or do a protest vote without ever voting for Farage, yet he still voted for Farage last year
    And you voted for Theresa May! 🤦🏻‍♂️
    I have no complaints, the deal Boris ends up with will not be a million miles from hers
  • I see the FT is reporting that Britain's don't understand (economic) statistics....well if the British media reporting of COVID stats are anything to go by, not really surprising.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 116,709
    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    gealbhan said:

    HYUFD said:

    That is mainly as the public don't think we will get a Brexit Deal, if Boris does produced a Deal with the EU as I think he will those numbers will shift back towards most thinking Brexit was right.

    52% voted Leave only the basis of a Deal, if Leave without a Deal had been the only option I doubt more than 40% would have voted Leave

    https://twitter.com/OpiniumResearch/status/1330253907445108736?s=20

    That depends on what life is like under that deal. We don’t know yet. It certainly wont be “business as usual”.
    In the bigger picture of line drawn through many polls, support for brexit will be a downward line forever now, till the tipping point vast majority of voters will say, why are we putting up with a brexit we loath? and pro brexit parties both of the time, and whose history enabled it, will be finished as political force.
    What utter rubbish, most voters over 45 voted for Brexit
    And you are not taking this support ongoing for ever for granted? 😂

    Look at the foundations of brexit and foundations of what is undermining it to realise what will happen.

    There is no way England’s destiny to be part of a federal Europe can be stopped. The short term and fragile brexitgasm isn’t going to halt the outcome.

    Brexit doesn’t have solid foundations in such things as economics, history, culture, sovereignty, all brexit is based on is politics. And in world of politics there can be an extremely popular platform, though wind the clock forward, only a handful of years sometimes, and this same popular platform can be the most unpopular platform.

    I could be speaking here from someone who bought into brexit, and voted for it. But I still recognise it’s utterly doomed, and likely take its signatories to the bottom with it.

    [insert picture of the titanic]
    What utter rubbish, we defeated potential invasion by Philip II, Napoleon and Hitler to avoid becoming part of a unified European Empire and even when in the EU we never joined the Euro or Schengen, the most we would ever rejoin now is the EEA and only under a Labour government
    No. You are getting utterly confused. Bringing party politics into it. Churchill saw our place in a federal Europe. Heath too. Bringing Second World War and Hitler into it, like he represents the federal EU position? 😂. History is against you. The economics undermines brexit more every day post jan 1st 2021, the grass always greener on the other side. Sovereignty you don’t understand at all, not something you Keep locked in a cellar, it’s a currency. We pool some in NATO to buy some security for example, every trade deal we spend some. A nation is based on culture, not borders with watch posts and patrol vessels.
    Churchill did not see Britain as part of a Federal Europe, only the continent, for him we would always be part of the Anglosphere and the Empire, now the Commonwealth. Heath was an exception.

    There is a difference between being part of Nato to contain Putin and doing trade deals and joining the Euro so Frankfurt and Berlin decide your economic policy as Greece discovered
  • RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    Starmer should say he reserves the right to put it to the people to rejoin at the first opportunity

    It's important that he can batter Johnson with it for the next four years. The Red bus should be to Johnson what the poll tax was to Maggie.


  • Roger said:

    Starmer should say he reserves the right to put it to the people to rejoin at the first opportunity

    It's important that he can batter Johnson with it for the next four years. The Red bus should be to Johnson what the poll tax was to Maggie.


    Oh please. 🙏🏻

    That would be a real gift to Johnson if he did that!
  • More detail on the Sausage War:

    https://www.rte.ie/news/2020/1123/1180052-connelly-brexit-latest/

    One official familiar with the issue said: "It’s becoming clearer that this would be a two-way thing.

    "If the ban [on such foods entering Northern Ireland] is a consequence of EU law, and the Brits are going to say, we're going to apply the same rules in the opposite direction - which people would say was reasonable.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 24,583
    isam said:

    How would the 2015 Election have gone if Cameron had not offered a referendum?

    Cameron would have just won his third term. His first majority.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 19,598

    I see the FT is reporting that Britain's don't understand (economic) statistics....well if the British media reporting of COVID stats are anything to go by, not really surprising.

    I might buy the FT tomorrow purely to cut out that article and frame it
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,074

    This Christmas gimmick is insane. Many areas will have to endure weeks in Tier 3 just to “pay for” this nonsense over Christmas. FFS.

    As far as hospitality is concerned this is far worse than the first lockdown in March. Then such businesses got a grant to help tide them over. This time nothing. No chance of earning an income while they still have costs and there have been precious few profits from the summer to help tide them over.

    All very well Sunak spending money to help the unemployed. But he’s part of a government whose policy on lockdown with inadequate support will inevitably increase unemployment and that’s before we get to whatever shocks Brexit causes.

    And the knock on effects in areas where tourism, leisure and hospitality are a large part of the economy will be grim.

    I see no reason to be optimistic about the economy at all.
  • isam said:

    How would the 2015 Election have gone if Cameron had not offered a referendum?

    Cameron would have just won his third term. His first majority.
    Considering he made clear he wouldn't seek a third term I'm curious how that would have gone?
This discussion has been closed.