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  • TomsToms Posts: 2,003
    Toms said:

    Carnyx said:

    Foxy said:

    Scott_xP said:
    I see Leicestershire features, that will be quite some traffic jam...
    Not to mention Warrington and Somerset.
    There are about 38 million vehicles in Britain of which about 32 million are cars. At 10 feet per vehicle that would make a queue about 70,000 miles long. Of course we knew that in our bones: all a town dweller needs to do is look out the front window.

    Vaccine or no vaccine, shouldn't the "new normal" include ceasing to regard a (smelly polluting) car as a birth-right, badge of normalcy, manliness, adequacy, and material success?
    Or the motorised wheelchair that it is?
    Indeed, the condemnation of smoking by King James isn't far from the mark on cars:

    "Have you not reason then to bee ashamed, and to forbeare this filthie noveltie, so basely grounded, so foolishly received and so grossely mistaken in the right use thereof? In your abuse thereof sinning against God, harming your selves both in persons and goods, and raking also thereby the markes and notes of vanitie upon you: by the custome thereof making your selves to be wondered at by all forraine civil Nations, and by all strangers that come among you, to be scorned and contemned. A custome lothsome to the eye, hatefull to the Nose, harmefull to the braine, dangerous to the Lungs, and in the blacke stinking fume thereof, neerest resembling the horrible Stigian smoke of the pit that is bottomelesse."
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,691

    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    He isn’t a trade expert. See the facts set out above. He’s about as much of an “expert” as Liam Fox who was the Minister for Trade for 3 years and has been nominated to be head of the WTO, no doubt because the government thinks he has the necessary expertise. Oh - and a Brexiteer, as if that matters.

    (One of the unacknowledged joys of Brexit is that we now have an informal Test Act in Britain for any sort of public office. Back to the 17th century with Brexit - yay! We’ll be setting up an Empire next - double yay!!)

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,161
    Scott_xP said:
    Who is "deeply worried"? Nobody quoted in that article....
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,096

    Scott_xP said:
    Well, the PM has had it. Was Nadine there? She's had it so doesn't count either. Anyone else there had it?
    A technical point, are there different rules for people who have (or claimed to) have had it over those who haven’t? I’ve not seen any
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,426

    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    I'm not really sure why someone who was against Brexit would want to fly around the world drumming up trade deals for our incipient independent state. Or why we would want them to.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,157

    Scott_xP said:
    Well, the PM has had it. Was Nadine there? She's had it so doesn't count either. Anyone else there had it?
    The people who have had Covid still count for the 30 max rule. Who knows whether you can get it twice?
  • Ave_itAve_it Posts: 2,411
    Cyclefree said:



    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    He isn’t a trade expert. See the facts set out above. He’s about as much of an “expert” as Liam Fox who was the Minister for Trade for 3 years and has been nominated to be head of the WTO, no doubt because the government thinks he has the necessary expertise. Oh - and a Brexiteer, as if that matters.

    (One of the unacknowledged joys of Brexit is that we now have an informal Test Act in Britain for any sort of public office. Back to the 17th century with Brexit - yay! We’ll be setting up an Empire next - double yay!!)

    Rule, Britannia! 😊
  • RobDRobD Posts: 49,135

    Scott_xP said:
    Who is "deeply worried"? Nobody quoted in that article....
    Also it isn't seen at all in the ONS' surveillance tests.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,157
    nichomar said:

    Scott_xP said:
    Well, the PM has had it. Was Nadine there? She's had it so doesn't count either. Anyone else there had it?
    A technical point, are there different rules for people who have (or claimed to) have had it over those who haven’t? I’ve not seen any
    No, there aren't any different rules for those who have had Covid-19. Nor should there be.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,638

    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    I'm not really sure why someone who was against Brexit would want to fly around the world drumming up trade deals for our incipient independent state. Or why we would want them to.
    So it's now necessary to have a religious belief in our national project in order to serve the state?
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,691

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,096
    If he was the organizer yes there should be but there won’t.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 36,727
    Regulation 5B was hastily made law last Friday 28th August, the day before the demonstration was held. It was introduced under an emergency procedure and was neither debated nor given even the most cursory scrutiny by any Parliamentary process. It permits the most junior Community Support Officer in the country to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice to the suspected organiser of a political event, demanding £10,000 to avoid prosecution and consequent financial ruin. Given its timing, even if it was not introduced with the purpose of targetting the organisers of a political protest against government policy, it very much has that appearance.

    https://barristerblogger.com/2020/09/02/piers-corbyn-may-be-a-crank-but-his-treatment-should-worry-us-all/
  • Cyclefree said:



    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    He isn’t a trade expert. See the facts set out above. He’s about as much of an “expert” as Liam Fox who was the Minister for Trade for 3 years and has been nominated to be head of the WTO, no doubt because the government thinks he has the necessary expertise. Oh - and a Brexiteer, as if that matters.

    (One of the unacknowledged joys of Brexit is that we now have an informal Test Act in Britain for any sort of public office. Back to the 17th century with Brexit - yay! We’ll be setting up an Empire next - double yay!!)

    No facts set out above say he's not an expert. He's been Prime Minister of one of our closest partners that while Prime Minister signed multiple trade agreements. That's valuable experience - if his politics shared yours you wouldn't be laughing at him. If we'd said we'd signed Jacinda Ardern then I doubt her credentials would be mocked.

    Did he unilaterally write those trade deals? No of course not. Is he going to be expected to unilaterally write any trade deals? No of course not.

    As for the Test Act remark, you're just being silly. Governments have always signed advisors who share their politics - Blair wouldn't have appointed someone to a Health committee that was against the NHS and was an advocate of a US style health insurance model.
  • state_go_awaystate_go_away Posts: 2,552

    Regulation 5B was hastily made law last Friday 28th August, the day before the demonstration was held. It was introduced under an emergency procedure and was neither debated nor given even the most cursory scrutiny by any Parliamentary process. It permits the most junior Community Support Officer in the country to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice to the suspected organiser of a political event, demanding £10,000 to avoid prosecution and consequent financial ruin. Given its timing, even if it was not introduced with the purpose of targetting the organisers of a political protest against government policy, it very much has that appearance.

    https://barristerblogger.com/2020/09/02/piers-corbyn-may-be-a-crank-but-his-treatment-should-worry-us-all/

    Glad to see the fighting fund surpass £10K within hours after he was fined.
  • Why do we need to broker trade deals? All these countries will come to us, just as the EU will after No Deal.

    Right guys, right?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 12,426

    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    I'm not really sure why someone who was against Brexit would want to fly around the world drumming up trade deals for our incipient independent state. Or why we would want them to.
    So it's now necessary to have a religious belief in our national project in order to serve the state?
    If former supporters of remain can put their previous allegiance to one side in the national interest and work tirelessly to make Brexit Britain a success, I'm all for it. I'm not sure what evidence you have of that - if PB's remainer cohort is anything to go by the struggle to sound sane on the subject, let alone anything else.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,691

    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    I'm not really sure why someone who was against Brexit would want to fly around the world drumming up trade deals for our incipient independent state. Or why we would want them to.
    Because once it has happened - and it has - how one voted is irrelevant. And believe it or not some people are patriotic and want their country to succeed even if they don’t like a particular government’s policies. Public service still means something to some people, strange as it may seem these days.

    I do not like Brexit - certainly not the way it has been handled. I think it will likely cause problems. But since I am living here I hope it succeeds (or at least is not a disaster) because I will have to endure the consequences if it does turn out to be as bad as feared.

    Had I the sort of expertise which might be needed and someone asked for my help, I would think about it very seriously. But apparently it is not enough to have skills. One must believe as well. And that both limits the pool of talent available and makes it more likely that one will fail.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,691

    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    I'm not really sure why someone who was against Brexit would want to fly around the world drumming up trade deals for our incipient independent state. Or why we would want them to.
    So it's now necessary to have a religious belief in our national project in order to serve the state?
    Yes. Our new Test Act.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 33,190
    On the subject of best ever political bets, I doubt there will ever be evenings as good as 2016, when (on the nights of the EU and US Presidential elections) there were massive amounts of free money available - especially with the spread betting firms. Every five minutes I'd pile another £1,000 on Brexit/Trump marvelling at how some punters seemed to be ignoring the actual results that were coming through.
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    I'm not really sure why someone who was against Brexit would want to fly around the world drumming up trade deals for our incipient independent state. Or why we would want them to.
    So it's now necessary to have a religious belief in our national project in order to serve the state?
    Yes. Our new Test Act.
    And what is that religious belief? The NHS? 🙄

    When have governments ever made appointments for people whose politics goes against the government's agenda? Its not a Test Act, its politics.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,846

    Cyclefree said:



    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    He isn’t a trade expert. See the facts set out above. He’s about as much of an “expert” as Liam Fox who was the Minister for Trade for 3 years and has been nominated to be head of the WTO, no doubt because the government thinks he has the necessary expertise. Oh - and a Brexiteer, as if that matters.

    (One of the unacknowledged joys of Brexit is that we now have an informal Test Act in Britain for any sort of public office. Back to the 17th century with Brexit - yay! We’ll be setting up an Empire next - double yay!!)

    No facts set out above say he's not an expert. He's been Prime Minister of one of our closest partners that while Prime Minister signed multiple trade agreements. That's valuable experience - if his politics shared yours you wouldn't be laughing at him. If we'd said we'd signed Jacinda Ardern then I doubt her credentials would be mocked.

    Did he unilaterally write those trade deals? No of course not. Is he going to be expected to unilaterally write any trade deals? No of course not.

    As for the Test Act remark, you're just being silly. Governments have always signed advisors who share their politics - Blair wouldn't have appointed someone to a Health committee that was against the NHS and was an advocate of a US style health insurance model.
    As one of our anticipated deals is with his own country, how likely is it to work better for Australia than us?
  • The off topic voter has returned
  • Foxy said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    He isn’t a trade expert. See the facts set out above. He’s about as much of an “expert” as Liam Fox who was the Minister for Trade for 3 years and has been nominated to be head of the WTO, no doubt because the government thinks he has the necessary expertise. Oh - and a Brexiteer, as if that matters.

    (One of the unacknowledged joys of Brexit is that we now have an informal Test Act in Britain for any sort of public office. Back to the 17th century with Brexit - yay! We’ll be setting up an Empire next - double yay!!)

    No facts set out above say he's not an expert. He's been Prime Minister of one of our closest partners that while Prime Minister signed multiple trade agreements. That's valuable experience - if his politics shared yours you wouldn't be laughing at him. If we'd said we'd signed Jacinda Ardern then I doubt her credentials would be mocked.

    Did he unilaterally write those trade deals? No of course not. Is he going to be expected to unilaterally write any trade deals? No of course not.

    As for the Test Act remark, you're just being silly. Governments have always signed advisors who share their politics - Blair wouldn't have appointed someone to a Health committee that was against the NHS and was an advocate of a US style health insurance model.
    As one of our anticipated deals is with his own country, how likely is it to work better for Australia than us?
    That's a very Trumpian attitude.

    Its not about us versus them. Good deals work for both countries - and he won't be making the decisions unilaterally. If he can advise us on what will or won't be a goer for Australia then I don't see how that works against us.
  • The off topic voter has returned

    Selfish prat whoever it is.

    Having been a moderator at other forums, it is damned annoying when someone abuses a button like that. If it doesn't stop then I'd have no issues with RCS/OGH banning whoever is abusing the feature like that. They've asked nicely for it not to happen.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,096

    Regulation 5B was hastily made law last Friday 28th August, the day before the demonstration was held. It was introduced under an emergency procedure and was neither debated nor given even the most cursory scrutiny by any Parliamentary process. It permits the most junior Community Support Officer in the country to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice to the suspected organiser of a political event, demanding £10,000 to avoid prosecution and consequent financial ruin. Given its timing, even if it was not introduced with the purpose of targetting the organisers of a political protest against government policy, it very much has that appearance.

    https://barristerblogger.com/2020/09/02/piers-corbyn-may-be-a-crank-but-his-treatment-should-worry-us-all/

    Glad to see the fighting fund surpass £10K within hours after he was fined.
    So when does the organizer of the meeting in the commons get their fixed penalty notice? Or do we just ignore it
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,691

    Cyclefree said:



    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    He isn’t a trade expert. See the facts set out above. He’s about as much of an “expert” as Liam Fox who was the Minister for Trade for 3 years and has been nominated to be head of the WTO, no doubt because the government thinks he has the necessary expertise. Oh - and a Brexiteer, as if that matters.

    (One of the unacknowledged joys of Brexit is that we now have an informal Test Act in Britain for any sort of public office. Back to the 17th century with Brexit - yay! We’ll be setting up an Empire next - double yay!!)

    No facts set out above say he's not an expert. He's been Prime Minister of one of our closest partners that while Prime Minister signed multiple trade agreements. That's valuable experience - if his politics shared yours you wouldn't be laughing at him. If we'd said we'd signed Jacinda Ardern then I doubt her credentials would be mocked.

    Did he unilaterally write those trade deals? No of course not. Is he going to be expected to unilaterally write any trade deals? No of course not.

    As for the Test Act remark, you're just being silly. Governments have always signed advisors who share their politics - Blair wouldn't have appointed someone to a Health committee that was against the NHS and was an advocate of a US style health insurance model.
    You’re the one being silly. Remember Brown’s Government of all the Talents, which brought in people who were not Labour?Or Cameron seeking informal advice from Blair?

    Harding has experience of supermarkets and retail. Her one experience as CEO in charge of data was one of the worst corporate cock-ups around. Still the bar is low for this government. But I am not going to hail a second-rate executive some sort of wonder girl.
  • nichomar said:

    Regulation 5B was hastily made law last Friday 28th August, the day before the demonstration was held. It was introduced under an emergency procedure and was neither debated nor given even the most cursory scrutiny by any Parliamentary process. It permits the most junior Community Support Officer in the country to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice to the suspected organiser of a political event, demanding £10,000 to avoid prosecution and consequent financial ruin. Given its timing, even if it was not introduced with the purpose of targetting the organisers of a political protest against government policy, it very much has that appearance.

    https://barristerblogger.com/2020/09/02/piers-corbyn-may-be-a-crank-but-his-treatment-should-worry-us-all/

    Glad to see the fighting fund surpass £10K within hours after he was fined.
    So when does the organizer of the meeting in the commons get their fixed penalty notice? Or do we just ignore it
    Considering the 30 people rule applies to "in your home" or "in public places" - which of those do you think applied?

    The law permits over 30 to gather if its for work purposes which is what this was.


  • Boris Johnson couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,691

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    I'm not really sure why someone who was against Brexit would want to fly around the world drumming up trade deals for our incipient independent state. Or why we would want them to.
    So it's now necessary to have a religious belief in our national project in order to serve the state?
    Yes. Our new Test Act.
    And what is that religious belief? The NHS? 🙄

    When have governments ever made appointments for people whose politics goes against the government's agenda? Its not a Test Act, its politics.
    From Wikipedia:

    “ Brown advocated a "Government of All the Talents" (GOAT) in which people who had not previously been members of the Labour Party but had expertise in specific areas would be appointed as ministers. Consequently, five new ministers, including Sir Ara Darzi—a consultant surgeon who became a health minister in the House of Lords, Sir Digby Jones—a former director general of the CBI who became minister of state for trade and investment and Sir Alan West—the former head of the Royal Navy who became a security minister at the Home Office.”
  • Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,096

    nichomar said:

    Regulation 5B was hastily made law last Friday 28th August, the day before the demonstration was held. It was introduced under an emergency procedure and was neither debated nor given even the most cursory scrutiny by any Parliamentary process. It permits the most junior Community Support Officer in the country to issue a Fixed Penalty Notice to the suspected organiser of a political event, demanding £10,000 to avoid prosecution and consequent financial ruin. Given its timing, even if it was not introduced with the purpose of targetting the organisers of a political protest against government policy, it very much has that appearance.

    https://barristerblogger.com/2020/09/02/piers-corbyn-may-be-a-crank-but-his-treatment-should-worry-us-all/

    Glad to see the fighting fund surpass £10K within hours after he was fined.
    So when does the organizer of the meeting in the commons get their fixed penalty notice? Or do we just ignore it
    Considering the 30 people rule applies to "in your home" or "in public places" - which of those do you think applied?

    The law permits over 30 to gather if its for work purposes which is what this was.<
    Still totally irresponsible


  • Propaganda, definitely needed for a healthy man that intends to continue
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:



    Cyclefree said:

    Would Abbott have got the job were he not a Brexiteer?

    No

    Why shouldn't the job go to a Brexiteer?
    Why shouldn’t the job go to a real trade expert? Isn’t that what Brexiteers are always claiming they want - the best and the brightest?
    He is a real trade expert . . . and a Brexiteer.
    He isn’t a trade expert. See the facts set out above. He’s about as much of an “expert” as Liam Fox who was the Minister for Trade for 3 years and has been nominated to be head of the WTO, no doubt because the government thinks he has the necessary expertise. Oh - and a Brexiteer, as if that matters.

    (One of the unacknowledged joys of Brexit is that we now have an informal Test Act in Britain for any sort of public office. Back to the 17th century with Brexit - yay! We’ll be setting up an Empire next - double yay!!)

    No facts set out above say he's not an expert. He's been Prime Minister of one of our closest partners that while Prime Minister signed multiple trade agreements. That's valuable experience - if his politics shared yours you wouldn't be laughing at him. If we'd said we'd signed Jacinda Ardern then I doubt her credentials would be mocked.

    Did he unilaterally write those trade deals? No of course not. Is he going to be expected to unilaterally write any trade deals? No of course not.

    As for the Test Act remark, you're just being silly. Governments have always signed advisors who share their politics - Blair wouldn't have appointed someone to a Health committee that was against the NHS and was an advocate of a US style health insurance model.
    You’re the one being silly. Remember Brown’s Government of all the Talents, which brought in people who were not Labour?Or Cameron seeking informal advice from Blair?

    Harding has experience of supermarkets and retail. Her one experience as CEO in charge of data was one of the worst corporate cock-ups around. Still the bar is low for this government. But I am not going to hail a second-rate executive some sort of wonder girl.
    Yes people sometimes get advice from others, especially on issues where they can agree on politics though. Boris has done the same and appointed former Labour people to roles too.

    You're wrong on Harding's experience. She's been Chair of NHS Improvement for three years now. She has worked at a vast swathe of companies, been Chief Executive of a major Telecoms company, been a director of The Court of The Bank of England served on many companies boards. That is a lot of experience, including years of experience specifically to do with the NHS.

    You have very terribly harsh and IMHO unrealistic views on people who have "failed" in the past as if there is no redemption possible for them. Personally I don't view having been through bad patches in the past is a bad thing, people have the opportunity learn a lot from adversity.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,846



    Boris Johnson couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag
    Flying not proving to be going very well this week, let's get the clown to sort it out...
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,076



    Propaganda, definitely needed for a healthy man that intends to continue
    Person, Woman, Man, Camera, TV?
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,076
    Foxy said:



    Boris Johnson couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag
    Flying not proving to be going very well this week, let's get the clown to sort it out...
    Reckon there’ll be a lot of people flying back from Portugal tomorrow. Doubtless the usual crowded and chaotic scenes that every capricious change in quarantine policy seems to generate.
  • Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Don't feed the troll. Its not worth it.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,540

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
  • Project Fear becomes Project Reality again
  • LostPasswordLostPassword Posts: 2,004
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Yokes said:

    Biden will be higher than 281. I think downside risk right now is small.

    The curiosity is the sell on Trump winning. If you think the polls will stick its a bet of interest.

    I tend to agree that this is an asymmetrical risk bet.

    Can Trump win? Yes. But if he does, it will probably be with a small EC lead. The chances of him getting 330+ are very small.

    Can Biden win? Yes - but there's also the possibility he does achieve a ten point popular vote lead, and then there are a raft of states (like Texas) that are in reach.

    The right strategy is probably to buy Biden in the spreads, and then cover it with a small bet on Trump with Betfair. If Trump wins, you're flat because Betfair has paid off your small losses in the spreads. You're only real losing scenario is a small Biden win. Which is far from impossible.
    I see this as a possible result on the latest polling with a small swing to Trump, Trump 274 Biden 264.

    Biden picks up Arizona and Pennsylvania and NE02, Trump holds Michigan, Wisconsin, Florida and North Carolina (alternatively Trump loses Wisconsin and picks up Minnesota gives the same result).
    https://www.270towin.com/
    Quite possible...

    However.

    Remember that polls in the US, like in the UK, have tended to follow a pendulum. So, they underestimated the Republicans in 2016, overestimated them in 2012 and underestimated them in 2008. (Just as in the UK the Conservatives were underestimated in 2019, overestimated in 2017, underestimated in 2015 and overestimated in 2010.)

    This means we would be unwise to completely discount the tail scenario that Biden gets a seven point (or more) victory. In which case, you could see the Midwest fall to Biden, likewise Florida, Arizona, Iowa, North Carolina and maybe even Texas.
    I really want that to be true, but it often seems to be that every time we find a pattern like that it breaks. Maybe the pollsters have noticed this pattern and this time they're telling themselves not to overdo their corrections.

    Plus there's Trump as incumbent and the difference between what the vote would be in conditions as fair as last time, and in the conditions that will prevail this time.
  • IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:



    Boris Johnson couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag
    Flying not proving to be going very well this week, let's get the clown to sort it out...
    Reckon there’ll be a lot of people flying back from Portugal tomorrow. Doubtless the usual crowded and chaotic scenes that every capricious change in quarantine policy seems to generate.
    And it is Scotland and Wales leading the charge to introduce quarantine to these countries
  • Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.
  • Looks like the BBC DG is shaking them up

    Not read a tweet from Lewis Goodall for a few days
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,076
    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:



    Boris Johnson couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag
    Flying not proving to be going very well this week, let's get the clown to sort it out...
    Reckon there’ll be a lot of people flying back from Portugal tomorrow. Doubtless the usual crowded and chaotic scenes that every capricious change in quarantine policy seems to generate.
    Edit/ I see this particular u-turn is postponed until next week


  • PB Tories rapidly re-thinking BBC privatisation now it follows their views
  • glwglw Posts: 6,699
    Scott_xP said:
    You can't tell from that excerpt but you need to look at hospital admissions and the ONS surveillance testing as well. Test figures in isolation are very misleading, as are comparisons with previous months, as the whole testing regime has changed enormously over the last six months, particularly in terms of scale. As I keep saying we probably had 100,000+ infections per day at the peak in March, we are nowhere near that now.

    I dare say we will see some large outbreaks, but few people seem to appreciate how bad things were in the spring, as the data for that time was missing practically all the infections that were occuring.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 29,076

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:



    Boris Johnson couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag
    Flying not proving to be going very well this week, let's get the clown to sort it out...
    Reckon there’ll be a lot of people flying back from Portugal tomorrow. Doubtless the usual crowded and chaotic scenes that every capricious change in quarantine policy seems to generate.
    And it is Scotland and Wales leading the charge to introduce quarantine to these countries
    We all know that where Scotland leads....
  • Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
  • Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Who's doing that Horse
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 3,831

    Random question, not being an expert in US politics (or even vaguely knowledgeable).

    In practical terms is there much difference between a wafer-thin Electoral College win and a thumping landslide? In terms of optics I'm sure there is, but does it manifest in the ability of the President to do presidenty things?

    No. It makes not a jot of difference.
    The only possible difference with a very close result, say 270-268, is that faithless voters could come into play. The chances of this changing the result though are vanishingly small.



  • PB Tories rapidly re-thinking BBC privatisation now it follows their views
    Not me!
  • IanB2 said:

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:



    Boris Johnson couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag
    Flying not proving to be going very well this week, let's get the clown to sort it out...
    Reckon there’ll be a lot of people flying back from Portugal tomorrow. Doubtless the usual crowded and chaotic scenes that every capricious change in quarantine policy seems to generate.
    And it is Scotland and Wales leading the charge to introduce quarantine to these countries
    We all know that where Scotland leads....
    So why are you not attacking Sturgeon then
  • Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Who's doing that Horse
    Someone who doesn't have the balls to put their name out there by disagreeing so instead spams OGH and RCS.

    We don't know who, but they will know who it is.
  • Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Who's doing that Horse
    I can't see, kindly look up you can see my posts marked off topic and flagged
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,540

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Correlation doesnt prove causation. Covid was falling before harding got involved. It was low come july. The fact is while you will say look at other european countries they also have had schools back for quite a while, night clubs open and 80% of office workers back. Claiming this as a success for track and trace is not proveb in the least. The woman has never done anything you can point to and say but for Dido Harding....


  • In a parallel world, Labour has no MPs in Scotland
  • Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Who's doing that Horse
    I can't see, kindly look up you can see my posts marked off topic and flagged
    I can do it accidentally due to my gnarled fingers (old age thing) but I usually notice and cancel it. It is never deliberate
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 18,691

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:
    No facts set out above say he's not an expert. He's been Prime Minister of one of our closest partners that while Prime Minister signed multiple trade agreements. That's valuable experience - if his politics shared yours you wouldn't be laughing at him. If we'd said we'd signed Jacinda Ardern then I doubt her credentials would be mocked.

    Did he unilaterally write those trade deals? No of course not. Is he going to be expected to unilaterally write any trade deals? No of course not.

    As for the Test Act remark, you're just being silly. Governments have always signed advisors who share their politics - Blair wouldn't have appointed someone to a Health committee that was against the NHS and was an advocate of a US style health insurance model.
    You’re the one being silly. Remember Brown’s Government of all the Talents, which brought in people who were not Labour?Or Cameron seeking informal advice from Blair?

    Harding has experience of supermarkets and retail. Her one experience as CEO in charge of data was one of the worst corporate cock-ups around. Still the bar is low for this government. But I am not going to hail a second-rate executive some sort of wonder girl.
    Yes people sometimes get advice from others, especially on issues where they can agree on politics though. Boris has done the same and appointed former Labour people to roles too.

    You're wrong on Harding's experience. She's been Chair of NHS Improvement for three years now. She has worked at a vast swathe of companies, been Chief Executive of a major Telecoms company, been a director of The Court of The Bank of England served on many companies boards. That is a lot of experience, including years of experience specifically to do with the NHS.

    You have very terribly harsh and IMHO unrealistic views on people who have "failed" in the past as if there is no redemption possible for them. Personally I don't view having been through bad patches in the past is a bad thing, people have the opportunity learn a lot from adversity.
    Harding has all of 3 year’s part-time experience of the NHS. Quite how her previous experience of supermarkets is relevant beats me.

    As for the general point, I have high expectations because I have seen close up the consequences of having people in jobs for which they are not qualified and at which they fail.

    I very strongly believe in redemption - both on a personal and professional level - having like most people, if they’re honest, made my share of mistakes. And I strongly believe that one learns best from one’s mistakes.

    But there has to be evidence of such learning and some humility and change.

    Rather, what I see is people serenely moving on from their cock-ups, denying that they did anything wrong, leaving others to clean up or blaming others, not taking responsibility - the ESSENTIAL first step to learning from adversity IMO - and being rewarded for - or in spite of - their failures.

    That is what grates because it is sending out precisely the wrong signal to people. Rather than teaching that one should admit to mistakes and learn from them, it is creating a culture where denial and blaming others is all and getting away from the scene of the crime is seen as being clever rather than reprehensible.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
  • CorrectHorseBatteryCorrectHorseBattery Posts: 10,899
    edited September 3

    Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Who's doing that Horse
    I can't see, kindly look up you can see my posts marked off topic and flagged
    I can do it accidentally due to my gnarled fingers (old age thing) but I usually notice and cancel it. It is never deliberate
    It's been done more than once on this page and then another post flagged, it is deliberate.

    I know you would never do it on purpose. A young man like you will outlive us all
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,714

    IanB2 said:

    Foxy said:



    Boris Johnson couldn't argue his way out of a paper bag
    Flying not proving to be going very well this week, let's get the clown to sort it out...
    Reckon there’ll be a lot of people flying back from Portugal tomorrow. Doubtless the usual crowded and chaotic scenes that every capricious change in quarantine policy seems to generate.
    And it is Scotland and Wales leading the charge to introduce quarantine to these countries
    I'm rather surprised that the UK Government has broken with its recent habits and not played follow-my-leader after the Scottish decision, to be honest.

    That said, they can't win either way. Apparently people who decided not to chance it and arranged emergency flights back from Portugal have now been bleating at them for NOT putting the country back on the quarantine naughty step again.

    Still, as I've said before, all of these problems could've been avoided if the advice to avoid non-essential travel abroad had been left in place. No need for quarantine hokey-cokey if all those Mediterranean sunshine holidays are simply off limits.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,540
    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:
    No facts set out above say he's not an expert. He's been Prime Minister of one of our closest partners that while Prime Minister signed multiple trade agreements. That's valuable experience - if his politics shared yours you wouldn't be laughing at him. If we'd said we'd signed Jacinda Ardern then I doubt her credentials would be mocked.

    Did he unilaterally write those trade deals? No of course not. Is he going to be expected to unilaterally write any trade deals? No of course not.

    As for the Test Act remark, you're just being silly. Governments have always signed advisors who share their politics - Blair wouldn't have appointed someone to a Health committee that was against the NHS and was an advocate of a US style health insurance model.
    You’re the one being silly. Remember Brown’s Government of all the Talents, which brought in people who were not Labour?Or Cameron seeking informal advice from Blair?

    Harding has experience of supermarkets and retail. Her one experience as CEO in charge of data was one of the worst corporate cock-ups around. Still the bar is low for this government. But I am not going to hail a second-rate executive some sort of wonder girl.
    Yes people sometimes get advice from others, especially on issues where they can agree on politics though. Boris has done the same and appointed former Labour people to roles too.

    You're wrong on Harding's experience. She's been Chair of NHS Improvement for three years now. She has worked at a vast swathe of companies, been Chief Executive of a major Telecoms company, been a director of The Court of The Bank of England served on many companies boards. That is a lot of experience, including years of experience specifically to do with the NHS.

    You have very terribly harsh and IMHO unrealistic views on people who have "failed" in the past as if there is no redemption possible for them. Personally I don't view having been through bad patches in the past is a bad thing, people have the opportunity learn a lot from adversity.
    Harding has all of 3 year’s part-time experience of the NHS. Quite how her previous experience of supermarkets is relevant beats me.

    As for the general point, I have high expectations because I have seen close up the consequences of having people in jobs for which they are not qualified and at which they fail.

    I very strongly believe in redemption - both on a personal and professional level - having like most people, if they’re honest, made my share of mistakes. And I strongly believe that one learns best from one’s mistakes.

    But there has to be evidence of such learning and some humility and change.

    Rather, what I see is people serenely moving on from their cock-ups, denying that they did anything wrong, leaving others to clean up or blaming others, not taking responsibility - the ESSENTIAL first step to learning from adversity IMO - and being rewarded for - or in spite of - their failures.

    That is what grates because it is sending out precisely the wrong signal to people. Rather than teaching that one should admit to mistakes and learn from them, it is creating a culture where denial and blaming others is all and getting away from the scene of the crime is seen as being clever rather than reprehensible.
    Harding has always been a serial failure just like too many that keep on getting these plum jobs.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,638

    Looks like the BBC DG is shaking them up

    Not read a tweet from Lewis Goodall for a few days

    He's on holiday.

  • Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Hey coward, stop marking my posts off topic.

    Who's doing that Horse
    I can't see, kindly look up you can see my posts marked off topic and flagged
    I can do it accidentally due to my gnarled fingers (old age thing) but I usually notice and cancel it. It is never deliberate
    It's been done more than once on this page and then another post flagged, it is deliberate.

    I know you would never do it on purpose. A young man like you will outlive us all
    I doubt it Horse but thank you
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,540

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Correlation doesnt prove causation. Covid was falling before harding got involved. It was low come july. The fact is while you will say look at other european countries they also have had schools back for quite a while, night clubs open and 80% of office workers back. Claiming this as a success for track and trace is not proveb in the least. The woman has never done anything you can point to and say but for Dido Harding....
    Its not correlation, our positivity rate has collapsed and stayed low. No other nation which previously had a major outbreak has a positivity rate as low as ours and it has not only gone low it has stayed that way. And not by coincidence - our Test and Trace is testing far more than any comparable country.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&amp;time=2020-04-01..latest&amp;country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP
  • glwglw Posts: 6,699

    Still, as I've said before, all of these problems could've been avoided if the advice to avoid non-essential travel abroad had been left in place. No need for quarantine hokey-cokey if all those Mediterranean sunshine holidays are simply off limits.

    I agree, but then the government would get it in the neck for destroying the airlines and the travel industry. Personally I think we should take that hit — the aircraft can be mothballed and some new airlines will be able to fly them some day — but hey I'm not a politician worrying about what the press and public think.
  • Looks like the BBC DG is shaking them up

    Not read a tweet from Lewis Goodall for a few days

    He's on holiday.

    And when he comes back he is in for a big shock

    Indeed this change by the DG may have quite an effect on the broadcast media generally, including Sky, especially if the BBC become the benchmark for balanced reporting
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,846



    In a parallel world, Labour has no MPs in Scotland
    I wonder how long before Chuka is back as a Labour MP.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 42,679
    edited September 3
    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    He can't, spot on Pagan2.

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    *cough*

    You don't know me at all it seems.
    Its a simple challenge show us a link to some actual source where you can say Dido harding achieved that.

    I can only wait 20 years or so however
    I just did. Harding runs Test & Trace and this is the result Test & Trace is getting compared to other countries.

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Second Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&amp;time=2020-04-01..latest&amp;country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    Success.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 1,540

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Correlation doesnt prove causation. Covid was falling before harding got involved. It was low come july. The fact is while you will say look at other european countries they also have had schools back for quite a while, night clubs open and 80% of office workers back. Claiming this as a success for track and trace is not proveb in the least. The woman has never done anything you can point to and say but for Dido Harding....
    Its not correlation, our positivity rate has collapsed and stayed low. No other nation which previously had a major outbreak has a positivity rate as low as ours and it has not only gone low it has stayed that way. And not by coincidence - our Test and Trace is testing far more than any comparable country.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&amp;time=2020-04-01..latest&amp;country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP
    Harding is in charge of national track and trace which is widely regarded as a failure/ As I pointed out you are comparing us with others who have very different environments so no its not proof of anything.

    Local track and trace which she has bugger all to do with seems to be working well however
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 37,638

    Looks like the BBC DG is shaking them up

    Not read a tweet from Lewis Goodall for a few days

    He's made a good start.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,638
    Foxy said:



    In a parallel world, Labour has no MPs in Scotland
    I wonder how long before Chuka is back as a Labour MP.
    By election in Islington North?
  • glwglw Posts: 6,699

    Its not correlation, our positivity rate has collapsed and stayed low. No other nation which previously had a major outbreak has a positivity rate as low as ours and it has not only gone low it has stayed that way. And not by coincidence - our Test and Trace is testing far more than any comparable country.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&amp;time=2020-04-01..latest&amp;country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP

    We could probably improve our test result times and tracing success rates by doing a lot less testing and tracing. That would win us some points with the critics, but it would almost certainly be the wrong thing to do.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 78,329
    edited September 3

    Foxy said:



    In a parallel world, Labour has no MPs in Scotland
    I wonder how long before Chuka is back as a Labour MP.
    By election in Islington North?
    He could win Cities of London and Westminster as either the Labour or LD candidate.

    It is 75th on the Labour target list and 14th on the LD target list, if he is canny he might even stand as the Labour/LD Alliance or anti hard Brexit Alliance candidate or something similar now Starmer has replaced Corbyn if he can get Starmer and the local CLP and Davey to agree
  • Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:
    No facts set out above say he's not an expert. He's been Prime Minister of one of our closest partners that while Prime Minister signed multiple trade agreements. That's valuable experience - if his politics shared yours you wouldn't be laughing at him. If we'd said we'd signed Jacinda Ardern then I doubt her credentials would be mocked.

    Did he unilaterally write those trade deals? No of course not. Is he going to be expected to unilaterally write any trade deals? No of course not.

    As for the Test Act remark, you're just being silly. Governments have always signed advisors who share their politics - Blair wouldn't have appointed someone to a Health committee that was against the NHS and was an advocate of a US style health insurance model.
    You’re the one being silly. Remember Brown’s Government of all the Talents, which brought in people who were not Labour?Or Cameron seeking informal advice from Blair?

    Harding has experience of supermarkets and retail. Her one experience as CEO in charge of data was one of the worst corporate cock-ups around. Still the bar is low for this government. But I am not going to hail a second-rate executive some sort of wonder girl.
    Yes people sometimes get advice from others, especially on issues where they can agree on politics though. Boris has done the same and appointed former Labour people to roles too.

    You're wrong on Harding's experience. She's been Chair of NHS Improvement for three years now. She has worked at a vast swathe of companies, been Chief Executive of a major Telecoms company, been a director of The Court of The Bank of England served on many companies boards. That is a lot of experience, including years of experience specifically to do with the NHS.

    You have very terribly harsh and IMHO unrealistic views on people who have "failed" in the past as if there is no redemption possible for them. Personally I don't view having been through bad patches in the past is a bad thing, people have the opportunity learn a lot from adversity.
    Harding has all of 3 year’s part-time experience of the NHS. Quite how her previous experience of supermarkets is relevant beats me.

    As for the general point, I have high expectations because I have seen close up the consequences of having people in jobs for which they are not qualified and at which they fail.

    I very strongly believe in redemption - both on a personal and professional level - having like most people, if they’re honest, made my share of mistakes. And I strongly believe that one learns best from one’s mistakes.

    But there has to be evidence of such learning and some humility and change.

    Rather, what I see is people serenely moving on from their cock-ups, denying that they did anything wrong, leaving others to clean up or blaming others, not taking responsibility - the ESSENTIAL first step to learning from adversity IMO - and being rewarded for - or in spite of - their failures.

    That is what grates because it is sending out precisely the wrong signal to people. Rather than teaching that one should admit to mistakes and learn from them, it is creating a culture where denial and blaming others is all and getting away from the scene of the crime is seen as being clever rather than reprehensible.
    I actually agree with you that people should stay to clean up their own mess which is precisely why I oppose calls to sack Ministers when something goes wrong, like Williamson for the exams. He got into the mess, he should get out of it rather than cut and run.

    Harding is an example of someone who did stay to clean up the mess at TalkTalk. When TalkTalk got in trouble she didn't cut and run, she didn't abandon the company she stayed with the company despite knowing there were issues. When the company was embarrassed with the cyber attack she didn't hide, she went and spoke to John Humphrys, she appeared on camera, she dealt with it. Good for her, I respect her for that. When the company was awarded a booby prize for poor customer service she didn't ignore it or pretend it hadn't happened, she stood in front of a camera holding the prize and committing to deal with the issues.

    I respect Harding a heck of a lot more than people who cut and run. Yet you constantly attack her, but she has in the past done precisely what you say here people should do!

    https://www.managementtoday.co.uk/talktalk-boss-dido-harding-sometimes-its-ok-admit-fallibility/leadership-lessons/article/1406542
  • glwglw Posts: 6,699
    edited September 3
    Well we didn't have to wait long for a new low from Trump.

    Trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain, and because he did not believe it important to honor American war dead, according to four people with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day. In a conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, Trump said, “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.” In a separate conversation on the same trip, Trump referred to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives at Belleau Wood as “suckers” for getting killed.


    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/
  • glw said:

    Well we didn't have to wait long for a new low from Trump.

    Trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain, and because he did not believe it important to honor American war dead, according to four people with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day. In a conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, Trump said, “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.” In a separate conversation on the same trip, Trump referred to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives at Belleau Wood as “suckers” for getting killed.


    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/
    I wonder why he's losing the votes of the US Military Personnel?
  • Black_RookBlack_Rook Posts: 5,714
    glw said:

    Scott_xP said:
    You can't tell from that excerpt but you need to look at hospital admissions and the ONS surveillance testing as well. Test figures in isolation are very misleading, as are comparisons with previous months, as the whole testing regime has changed enormously over the last six months, particularly in terms of scale. As I keep saying we probably had 100,000+ infections per day at the peak in March, we are nowhere near that now.

    I dare say we will see some large outbreaks, but few people seem to appreciate how bad things were in the spring, as the data for that time was missing practically all the infections that were occuring.
    We also need there *not* to be an outbreak of mass hysteria the moment clusters start to appear in schools, which they will. The time to get worried is not if a load of kids and a few parents get the bug, it's if it begins to infiltrate the vulnerable sections of the population again and the hospital numbers spike.

    Even then, we need local and national Government to get an urgent grip on exactly how and where transmission is taking place - there's no point in having panic lockdowns and rushing headlong back to April if the main issue turns out to be family transmission between households (kids pass illness to parents, parents visit grandparents, grandparents end up in hospital.) The authorities must also try to remember that the point of restrictions was to stop the healthcare system collapsing and not to make sure that absolutely nobody got sick from Covid or died of it.

    A disease which predominantly strikes down the elderly is probably more likely to be controlled, to the degree needed to keep healthcare going, by asking the elderly to shield than by closing down leisure centres and nail bars (and thus doing yet more damage to the economy, which is what pays for healthcare in the first place.) Doing stuff just for the sake of being seen to do something is wholly counterproductive and should be avoided.
  • Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Pagan2 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Quite amusing watching all those who spent the last 4 years stating that character and expertise absolutely do matter in public life (when it comes to an opponent like, say, ooh, I don’t know, J Corbyn) now saying that they don’t matter at all when it relates to one of your mates who believes in Brexit.

    Abbott was the elected leader of a major Western democracy and a Rhodes Scholar; Corbyn was a delusional, barely-educated crank.

    Apart from that, good point!
    Your point is a fatuous one. Character is important regardless of educational qualifications. Corbyn was the twice-elected Leader of the Opposition. That is why his character mattered - and it is also why Abbott’s character matters, if he is going to represent Britain on the world stage.

    Still, Tories have rather sold the pass on that one having no problem with the manifold deficiencies in their leader’s character, which are daily revealed to us.
    What issue do you have with Abbott's character?

    All that's been said on this thread so far that I've seen substantiated is that he was against gay marriage. As were lots of people in this country and worldwide at the time. Hundreds of MPs voted against gay marriage including MPs from all the then major parties.
    I haven’t said I have. I wonder quite what his expertise is that qualifies him for an important role. I suspect that this more about doing favours for mates, much like with Harding and others who I’ve mentioned in thread headers on the topic, than anything else.

    I would like people to be appointed on the basis of high standards of expertise, experience, knowledge and proven ability and, yes, character, too - rather than from the same list of retreads, has-beens and second-raters which seems to be trotted out on a regular basis.
    His expertise is that he has real world experience of signing trade agreements that the country frankly lacks because we've not done that in nearly 50 years.

    As for your obsession with Harding - she has a wealth of experience and is doing a very good job at Test & Trace. 🤷🏻‍♂️
    Can you cite any example of harding ever being a success?

    Can you point to a source that shows track and trace is being sucessful?

    Or is it merely your unsubstantiated opinion
    Example: Test & Trace

    Source: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/positive-rate-daily-smoothed?tab=chart&year=latest&country=GBR~FRA~ESP~PRT~ITA
    Correlation doesnt prove causation. Covid was falling before harding got involved. It was low come july. The fact is while you will say look at other european countries they also have had schools back for quite a while, night clubs open and 80% of office workers back. Claiming this as a success for track and trace is not proveb in the least. The woman has never done anything you can point to and say but for Dido Harding....
    Its not correlation, our positivity rate has collapsed and stayed low. No other nation which previously had a major outbreak has a positivity rate as low as ours and it has not only gone low it has stayed that way. And not by coincidence - our Test and Trace is testing far more than any comparable country.

    https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/full-list-total-tests-for-covid-19?year=latest&amp;time=2020-04-01..latest&amp;country=GBR~France, tests performed~ITA~PRT~ESP
    Harding is in charge of national track and trace which is widely regarded as a failure/ As I pointed out you are comparing us with others who have very different environments so no its not proof of anything.

    Local track and trace which she has bugger all to do with seems to be working well however
    You claim its "widely regarded" as a failure. Whom by? With what evidence?

    You demanded sources, so do I too. I have provided multiple analytical sources of data to demonstrate the success of Test & Trace. If it is a so-called failure please provide factual sources to demonstrate that please. With benchmarks overseas for how you're determining it to be a failure like I have done for it being a success?

    Or are you all mouth and no trousers?
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,782

    HYUFD said:
    Now we are talking. Excellent for Biden.
    Where are you getting the results, HYUFD? I've been following RCP for ages, but recently they seem to only update every few days, and frequently miss some of the ones you (very helpfully) report.
    Yes, RCP are really sloppy at reporting polling. I’ve almost given up on them.
  • glwglw Posts: 6,699

    We also need there *not* to be an outbreak of mass hysteria the moment clusters start to appear in schools, which they will. The time to get worried is not if a load of kids and a few parents get the bug, it's if it begins to infiltrate the vulnerable sections of the population again and the hospital numbers spike.

    Even then, we need local and national Government to get an urgent grip on exactly how and where transmission is taking place - there's no point in having panic lockdowns and rushing headlong back to April if the main issue turns out to be family transmission between households (kids pass illness to parents, parents visit grandparents, grandparents end up in hospital.) The authorities must also try to remember that the point of restrictions was to stop the healthcare system collapsing and not to make sure that absolutely nobody got sick from Covid or died of it.

    A disease which predominantly strikes down the elderly is probably more likely to be controlled, to the degree needed to keep healthcare going, by asking the elderly to shield than by closing down leisure centres and nail bars (and thus doing yet more damage to the economy, which is what pays for healthcare in the first place.) Doing stuff just for the sake of being seen to do something is wholly counterproductive and should be avoided.

    I totally agree.

    I'm really not defending the government on this, as my inclination is to be much more cautious than they are being and have been, but the figures in the round are broadly encouraging, and that surprises me as I expected a lot worse after lockdown ended. My hunches were wrong.

    Trying to be objective about what is happening, we do appear to be doing quite a good job so far at limiting infection, ramping up testing, and stamping out local outbreaks, and we are getting better at it all the time, even if to some extent that is through trial and error. Are there problems? Of course. Do we have the optimal strategy? No way. That said we are in a vastly better position now than six months ago.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 34,638
    glw said:

    Well we didn't have to wait long for a new low from Trump.

    Trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain, and because he did not believe it important to honor American war dead, according to four people with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day. In a conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, Trump said, “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.” In a separate conversation on the same trip, Trump referred to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives at Belleau Wood as “suckers” for getting killed.


    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/
    Perhaps he will publicly question why he has to submit himself to the electorate when most of them are losers.
  • AnabobazinaAnabobazina Posts: 4,782
    I’m not usually moved by he said she said stuff.

    But, calling America’s war dead losers could be toxic for Trumpton.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,915

    I’m not usually moved by he said she said stuff.

    But, calling America’s war dead losers could be toxic for Trumpton.

    More concerned about his hair going astray, apparently.


    I don’t think there’ll be many shy Trumpers in the military.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,915

    glw said:

    Well we didn't have to wait long for a new low from Trump.

    Trump rejected the idea of the visit because he feared his hair would become disheveled in the rain, and because he did not believe it important to honor American war dead, according to four people with firsthand knowledge of the discussion that day. In a conversation with senior staff members on the morning of the scheduled visit, Trump said, “Why should I go to that cemetery? It’s filled with losers.” In a separate conversation on the same trip, Trump referred to the more than 1,800 marines who lost their lives at Belleau Wood as “suckers” for getting killed.


    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/09/trump-americans-who-died-at-war-are-losers-and-suckers/615997/
    Perhaps he will publicly question why he has to submit himself to the electorate when most of them are losers.
    He’s already indicated his utter contempt for the electorate by declaring in advance that any election he loses must be fixed.
    I’m hoping the electorate treats him with a similar dose of contempt.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 18,846
    Nigelb said:

    I’m not usually moved by he said she said stuff.

    But, calling America’s war dead losers could be toxic for Trumpton.

    More concerned about his hair going astray, apparently.


    I don’t think there’ll be many shy Trumpers in the military.
    This is a pretty amazing remark:

  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,915
    Foxy said:

    Nigelb said:

    I’m not usually moved by he said she said stuff.

    But, calling America’s war dead losers could be toxic for Trumpton.

    More concerned about his hair going astray, apparently.


    I don’t think there’ll be many shy Trumpers in the military.
    This is a pretty amazing remark:

    In Trump’s case, now we know him, stuff like that is no longer amazing.
    It is who he is; profoundly ignorant, and profoundly selfish.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 25,915
    Interesting paper with some genuine evidence of significant difference between coronavirus mutations.

    Spike mutation D614G alters SARS-CoV-2 fitness and neutralization susceptibility
    https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.01.278689v1.full.pdf
This discussion has been closed.