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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » WH2020: We need a market on who will President on January 21st

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  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    Would that be the 83% who don't live in Greater Manchester, East Lancashire or West Yorkshire?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    I wold certainly agree that he was the man who got us to the point where we were actually given the choice. That took decades of campaigning and for that alone I am very grateful to him.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,599
    PHE England all settings deaths

    image
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 53,766
    Alistair said:

    My view is that at soon as he loses, virtually the entire Republican establishment will move rapidly to distance themselves from him. What is the point of Trump if he's not even a winner?

    Tom Cotton has set himself up as continuity Trump for when Trump loses.

    I would back him for Republican 2024 nominee right now @50
    Agreed. Massive value.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392

    RobD said:

    Ian Botham?

    That's Lord Botham to you. :p
    What trick question in the sporting round of a pub quiz is Botham the answer to?
    There are two. One about which England international played for England. The other about driving the green on a particular hole on some golf course or other.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    It's fun listening to interviewers going out in search of enraged voters in Vox Pops, finding most people are supportive of the government's action. Another confirmation that Twitter ≠ The Real World
    Is this like tax? Everyone in favour of someone else's tax being increased to pay for services.
  • BluestBlueBluestBlue Posts: 4,556
    But how can that be? I thought the Government had lost all trust in its public health policy and no one could possibly approve of or comply with its decisions...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    It's fun listening to interviewers going out in search of enraged voters in Vox Pops, finding most people are supportive of the government's action. Another confirmation that Twitter ≠ The Real World
    Is this like tax? Everyone in favour of someone else's tax being increased to pay for services.
    Exactly.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    rcs1000 said:

    Alistair said:

    My view is that at soon as he loses, virtually the entire Republican establishment will move rapidly to distance themselves from him. What is the point of Trump if he's not even a winner?

    Tom Cotton has set himself up as continuity Trump for when Trump loses.

    I would back him for Republican 2024 nominee right now @50
    Agreed. Massive value.
    Alas no serious market up. Only a couple of places have 2024 nominees and everyone is at terribly skinny odds.

    Waiting for Betfair to get a shift on.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Hahahaha. I am delighted.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    Okay @NerysHughes et al NHS/COVID update:

    My mother broke her hip last week. In her local hospital orthopaedic ward.

    She is the only one in it.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    edited July 2020
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen by a large majority as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941

    It's fun listening to interviewers going out in search of enraged voters in Vox Pops, finding most people are supportive of the government's action. Another confirmation that Twitter ≠ The Real World
    Is this like tax? Everyone in favour of someone else's tax being increased to pay for services.
    The regional breakdowns are there in the link.

    North is 75% support.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Certainly seems to be annoying the right people:

    https://twitter.com/arusbridger/status/1289226107254759424?s=20
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    I wold certainly agree that he was the man who got us to the point where we were actually given the choice. That took decades of campaigning and for that alone I am very grateful to him.
    He used to bang on about it when he worked in the City and many people thought him a loon. Done more damage this country that Hitler and Kaiser Bill combined.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    Nominations for non-affiliated Peerages
    13. Claire Fox – Director and founder of the Institute of Ideas.

    Crikey.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730

    RobD said:

    Ian Botham?

    That's Lord Botham to you. :p
    What trick question in the sporting round of a pub quiz is Botham the answer to?
    There are two. One about which England international played for England. The other about driving the green on a particular hole on some golf course or other.
    Ian Botham never played for England.

    The last England Test cricketer to be capped at football for England was Arthur Milton.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    I wold certainly agree that he was the man who got us to the point where we were actually given the choice. That took decades of campaigning and for that alone I am very grateful to him.
    He used to bang on about it when he worked in the City and many people thought him a loon. Done more damage this country that Hitler and Kaiser Bill combined.
    Ah the bitterness of losers.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,001
    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Why
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
    ydoethur said:

    Sounds like fowl play.

    Man pleads guilty to having sex with chickens.

    https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/18620366.man-pleads-guilty-sex-chickens/

    Did he have a big cock?
    You are Penny Mordaunt and I claim my free mess dinner....
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,038

    My view is that at soon as he loses, virtually the entire Republican establishment will move rapidly to distance themselves from him. What is the point of Trump if he's not even a winner?

    https://twitter.com/davidfrum/status/1151669588808986624
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841

    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Hahahaha. I am delighted.
    Why are you delighted ?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,392
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Ian Botham?

    That's Lord Botham to you. :p
    What trick question in the sporting round of a pub quiz is Botham the answer to?
    There are two. One about which England international played for England. The other about driving the green on a particular hole on some golf course or other.
    Ian Botham never played for England.

    The last England Test cricketer to be capped at football for England was Arthur Milton.
    Sorry. Should have said England international who played for Scunthorpe.

    Too hot!
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,979
    Latest data
    R and reported cases slowly increasing.

  • CatManCatMan Posts: 2,720
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    I'd say the person most responsible for Brexit is Rupert Murdoch.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen by a large majority as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    This is where I think you are wrong. It was only through the persistence of Farage and his associates that we got to the position where leaving was even considered a mainstream suggestion worthy of debate.

    And every year we became more and more enmeshed so that if we had not left when we did then pretty soon we would not have been able to leave at all.

    Whilst I agree entirely Leave would not have won if he had been leading the campaign, they would not even have got to the position where we were allowed a referendum had he not spent decades campaigning for us to leave.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 49,955
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited July 2020

    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Why
    This Claire Fox? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claire_Fox

    According to Wikipedia, she's previously denied the Bosnian genocide, has been a member of the revolutionary communist party, and supported the PIRA?

    Clearly the kind of person Brexiteers want to be associated with. Clearly the kind of person who should be in the Lords.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    Nigelb said:

    The good news is that this really does not seem the most difficult virus to develop an effective vaccine against. Here's yet another one, along with clear evidence of neutralising antibodies (in mice).

    Replication-competent vesicular stomatitis virus vaccine vector protects against SARS-CoV-2-mediated pathogenesis in mice
    https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(20)30421-2
    Previously, we developed a replication-competent vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV) expressing a modified form of the SARS-CoV-2 spike gene in place of the native glycoprotein gene (VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2). Here, we show that vaccination with VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2 generates neutralizing immune responses and protects mice from SARS-CoV-2. Immunization of mice with VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2 elicits high antibody titers that neutralize SARS-CoV-2 and target the receptor binding domain that engages human angiotensin converting enzyme-2 (ACE2). Upon challenge with a human isolate of SARS-CoV-2, mice expressing human ACE2 and immunized with VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2 show profoundly reduced viral infection and inflammation in the lung, indicating protection against pneumonia. Passive transfer of sera from VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2-immunized animals also protects naïve mice from SARS-CoV-2 challenge. These data support development of VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2 as an attenuated, replication-competent vaccine against SARS-CoV-2.

    I dont get why they are not just giving potential vaccines to people in Care Homes and use them as the test subjects. They have shown thay they are harmless so if they work great, if they don't no harm done. Australia look likely to do this.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8578411/Coronavirus-vaccine-developed-Australian-researchers-develops-immune-response.html
    That's highly unethical.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,603

    England case data - scaled to 100k population -

    image

    That top 10 showing exactly why the North has been locked down.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540

    It's fun listening to interviewers going out in search of enraged voters in Vox Pops, finding most people are supportive of the government's action. Another confirmation that Twitter ≠ The Real World
    Is this like tax? Everyone in favour of someone else's tax being increased to pay for services.
    Slightly, but not much - the North is least supportive, but still overwhelmingly so:

    Separate households have been banned from meeting indoors in Greater Manchester, east Lancashire and parts of West Yorkshire following a spike in coronavirus cases. Do you support or oppose this measure?

    Support/Oppose/DK:

    UK: 83 / 7 / 10
    North: 75 / 14 / 11
  • RobDRobD Posts: 58,941
    MaxPB said:

    Nigelb said:

    The good news is that this really does not seem the most difficult virus to develop an effective vaccine against. Here's yet another one, along with clear evidence of neutralising antibodies (in mice).

    Replication-competent vesicular stomatitis virus vaccine vector protects against SARS-CoV-2-mediated pathogenesis in mice
    https://www.cell.com/cell-host-microbe/fulltext/S1931-3128(20)30421-2
    Previously, we developed a replication-competent vesicular stomatitis virus (VSV) expressing a modified form of the SARS-CoV-2 spike gene in place of the native glycoprotein gene (VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2). Here, we show that vaccination with VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2 generates neutralizing immune responses and protects mice from SARS-CoV-2. Immunization of mice with VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2 elicits high antibody titers that neutralize SARS-CoV-2 and target the receptor binding domain that engages human angiotensin converting enzyme-2 (ACE2). Upon challenge with a human isolate of SARS-CoV-2, mice expressing human ACE2 and immunized with VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2 show profoundly reduced viral infection and inflammation in the lung, indicating protection against pneumonia. Passive transfer of sera from VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2-immunized animals also protects naïve mice from SARS-CoV-2 challenge. These data support development of VSV-eGFP-SARS-CoV-2 as an attenuated, replication-competent vaccine against SARS-CoV-2.

    I dont get why they are not just giving potential vaccines to people in Care Homes and use them as the test subjects. They have shown thay they are harmless so if they work great, if they don't no harm done. Australia look likely to do this.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8578411/Coronavirus-vaccine-developed-Australian-researchers-develops-immune-response.html
    That's highly unethical.
    Also I find it hard to believe phase 2 trials were on old biddies in nursing homes.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Why
    She's vile. She's like Corbyn, an excuser of atrocities and I don't think she's ever apologised.

    Which party nominated her?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    RobD said:

    Ian Botham?

    That's Lord Botham to you. :p
    What trick question in the sporting round of a pub quiz is Botham the answer to?
    There are two. One about which England international played for England. The other about driving the green on a particular hole on some golf course or other.
    Wasn't he also the last England cricketer to also play professional football?
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Hahahaha. I am delighted.
    Why are you delighted ?
    Because it upsets all the right people. We need more disruptors in politics.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    I wold certainly agree that he was the man who got us to the point where we were actually given the choice. That took decades of campaigning and for that alone I am very grateful to him.
    He used to bang on about it when he worked in the City and many people thought him a loon. Done more damage this country that Hitler and Kaiser Bill combined.
    Ah the bitterness of losers.
    I wouldn't deny that. I've been involved in pro-Europe campaigns at various levels since the late 60's. I hope you're not going to suggest that Johnson and Cummings are other than totally self-interested.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092
      

    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Why
    She's vile. She's like Corbyn, an excuser of atrocities and I don't think she's ever apologised.

    Which party nominated her?
    She's quite good on the Moral Maze (R4).

  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,840
    geoffw said:

    Mr May has been knighted.

    Is that a sly jab at his predecessor? Knighted for putting up with her? Bet it is. Would be typical puerile Johnson.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited July 2020

    Pulpstar said:

    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Hahahaha. I am delighted.
    Why are you delighted ?
    Because it upsets all the right people. We need more disruptors in politics.
    Disrupting ideas like belief in the Bosnian genocide?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Hahahaha. I am delighted.
    The IRA supporting Genocide denier? Is that who you want to align with?
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Maybe, maybe not. Considering nearly 100 Tory MPs voted to have a referendum against a three line whip, it was a live issue with or without Farage.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Of all my posts on PB I am surprised that someone should try to argue with such a transparently obvious statement.

    Of course he was responsible - over decades, as you say.

    He does deserve a peerage but I suppose the optics wouldn't be right for one reason or another.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730

    RobD said:

    Ian Botham?

    That's Lord Botham to you. :p
    What trick question in the sporting round of a pub quiz is Botham the answer to?
    There are two. One about which England international played for England. The other about driving the green on a particular hole on some golf course or other.
    Wasn't he also the last England cricketer to also play professional football?
    I think David Bairstow appeared once for Bradford, although I could be wrong.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,346
    TOPPING said:

    Okay @NerysHughes et al NHS/COVID update:

    My mother broke her hip last week. In her local hospital orthopaedic ward.

    She is the only one in it.

    It really needs to be publisised just how empty hospitals are.

    I watched the BBC thing yesterday on 12 hours at a hospital and the staff were saying how exhausted they were etc etc

    It was just nonsense.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Necessary but (probably) not sufficient.
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    geoffw said:

      

    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Why
    She's vile. She's like Corbyn, an excuser of atrocities and I don't think she's ever apologised.

    Which party nominated her?
    She's quite good on the Moral Maze (R4).

    Never heard it.

    I don't know if her genocide encouragement lies just in the past, or if she's still doing it, of if she's apologised and moved on, but I don't think she has apologised.

    Beyond the pale IMHO.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    geoffw said:

      

    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Why
    She's vile. She's like Corbyn, an excuser of atrocities and I don't think she's ever apologised.

    Which party nominated her?
    She's quite good on the Moral Maze (R4).

    Never heard it.

    I don't know if her genocide encouragement lies just in the past, or if she's still doing it, of if she's apologised and moved on, but I don't think she has apologised.

    Beyond the pale IMHO.
    She absolutely hasn't apologised.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,072
    edited July 2020

    TOPPING said:

    Okay @NerysHughes et al NHS/COVID update:

    My mother broke her hip last week. In her local hospital orthopaedic ward.

    She is the only one in it.

    It really needs to be publisised just how empty hospitals are.

    I watched the BBC thing yesterday on 12 hours at a hospital and the staff were saying how exhausted they were etc etc

    It was just nonsense.
    Well I'm due to have bowel surgery in exactly 2 weeks. I'll post, whilst high on fentanyl, what the situation is like on the ground, as it were.
  • geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,092

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Maybe, maybe not. Considering nearly 100 Tory MPs voted to have a referendum against a three line whip, it was a live issue with or without Farage.
    Do you think the UKIP phenomenon was of no consequence wrt Europe?

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    geoffw said:

      

    Alistair said:

    algarkirk said:

    Daniel Moylan (another contemporary of Philip & Theresa May) on the peerage list too. Fun that Frank Field. Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, Gisela Stuart and John Woodcock were not nominated by Corbyn!


    Pretty good list all in all. Charles Moore is a bonus.
    Claire Fox is an interesting choice.
    Fuck me. That is genuinely disgusting.
    Why
    She's vile. She's like Corbyn, an excuser of atrocities and I don't think she's ever apologised.

    Which party nominated her?
    She's quite good on the Moral Maze (R4).

    Never heard it.

    I don't know if her genocide encouragement lies just in the past, or if she's still doing it, of if she's apologised and moved on, but I don't think she has apologised.

    Beyond the pale IMHO.
    It's an excellent programme on the service that shall not speak its name. But I appreciate that on principle you have to forego certain pleasures.
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    I wold certainly agree that he was the man who got us to the point where we were actually given the choice. That took decades of campaigning and for that alone I am very grateful to him.
    He used to bang on about it when he worked in the City and many people thought him a loon. Done more damage this country that Hitler and Kaiser Bill combined.
    Ah the bitterness of losers.
    I wouldn't deny that. I've been involved in pro-Europe campaigns at various levels since the late 60's. I hope you're not going to suggest that Johnson and Cummings are other than totally self-interested.
    Not for a second. But that is not the question being debated. The vast majority of politicians are totally self interested. I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them.

    What matters is what they are fighting for and whether they achieve it and Farage was fighting for something I wholeheartedly supported and had the nous, the skill or the cunning - whichever you prefer - to actually get us to the point where we were able to make a choice.

    The comment about Hitler and Kaiser Bill is just fatuous bollocks. Hence my sore loser retort.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Maybe, maybe not. Considering nearly 100 Tory MPs voted to have a referendum against a three line whip, it was a live issue with or without Farage.
    Yes, that would be my position. It was a live issue with the Tory right, and their voters, with or without Farage.

    I do think however it would have taken another 10 years without the pressure he brought from UKIP.

    Equally, in another 10 years I think we would probably have effectively wandered out of the EU anyway, as Poland, Sweden, Hungary and any other non-euro members are going to.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,841
    I trust those supporting the Claire Fox peerage will be as accomodating to Corbyn's various friends and acquaintances ?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr May has been knighted.

    Is that a sly jab at his predecessor? Knighted for putting up with her? Bet it is. Would be typical puerile Johnson.
    If either of them remotely thought that Philip would have turned it down.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Maybe, maybe not. Considering nearly 100 Tory MPs voted to have a referendum against a three line whip, it was a live issue with or without Farage.
    Yes, that would be my position. It was a live issue with the Tory right, and their voters, with or without Farage.

    I do think however it would have taken another 10 years without the pressure he brought from UKIP.

    Equally, in another 10 years I think we would probably have effectively wandered out of the EU anyway, as Poland, Sweden, Hungary and any other non-euro members are going to.
    Ah thank goodness you are now accepting that without him we wouldn't have had Brexit.

    Finally and if I may say so reasonably gracefully.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    In the bigger picture I would agree. But of course he was only able to do that by persuading voters to make it an issue. If he had just relied upon persuading Cameron it was a good idea on its own merits he would never have got anywhere with it. What he had to do is make it a political necessity for Cameron to promise a vote and he did that by persuading voters that it was achievable.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    In the bigger picture I would agree. But of course he was only able to do that by persuading voters to make it an issue. If he had just relied upon persuading Cameron it was a good idea on its own merits he would never have got anywhere with it. What he had to do is make it a political necessity for Cameron to promise a vote and he did that by persuading voters that it was achievable.
    Yes. This is hardly controversial.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    I am not wedded to 'ineluctable tides.' In fact, look at the earlier comments and you will note I said: 'Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.'

    But ultimately, however we cut it, the reason we have left the EU is that a majority of the British public were opposed to membership of it, and that wasn't the result of Nigel Farage.

    So to get back to the point - he wasn't the most effective political campaigner of the last 30 years.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    edited July 2020
    Pulpstar said:

    I trust those supporting the Claire Fox peerage will be as accomodating to Corbyn's various friends and acquaintances ?

    10. Susan Hayman – lately Member of Parliament for Workington.

    11. Prem Sikka – Professor of Accounting at the University of Sheffield.

    12. Anthony Woodley – formerly Joint-General Secretary of Unite.


    Don't know who any of them are.....of course, there may have been other nominations that didn't pass vetting (noncefindergeneral?)
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Maybe, maybe not. Considering nearly 100 Tory MPs voted to have a referendum against a three line whip, it was a live issue with or without Farage.
    Yes, that would be my position. It was a live issue with the Tory right, and their voters, with or without Farage.

    I do think however it would have taken another 10 years without the pressure he brought from UKIP.

    Equally, in another 10 years I think we would probably have effectively wandered out of the EU anyway, as Poland, Sweden, Hungary and any other non-euro members are going to.
    Ah thank goodness you are now accepting that without him we wouldn't have had Brexit.

    Finally and if I may say so reasonably gracefully.
    Blimey. That's a twisting of my words that even Alex Salmond would blush at.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Maybe, maybe not. Considering nearly 100 Tory MPs voted to have a referendum against a three line whip, it was a live issue with or without Farage.
    Again they would never have got close to being given the opportunity to have that vote without Farage.
  • MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 43,599
    MaxPB said:

    England case data - scaled to 100k population -

    image

    That top 10 showing exactly why the North has been locked down.
    To be followed in 3.. 2.. 1...

    - There is no evidence
    - The government panicked
    - They locked down too much
    - They locked down too little
    - etc etc.
  • Fysics_TeacherFysics_Teacher Posts: 6,060

    RobD said:

    Ian Botham?

    That's Lord Botham to you. :p
    What trick question in the sporting round of a pub quiz is Botham the answer to?
    There are two. One about which England international played for England. The other about driving the green on a particular hole on some golf course or other.
    I’m fairly sure that a lot of England internationals played for England...

    I was thinking of the only England Captain to play for Scunthorpe.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,840
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    He devoted his political life to the Brexit cause and he was for most of that time its leader. A terrible cause, unfortunately, so in my book not deserving of an honour. However it's a cause that Muscles supposedly believes in so logically it should be Lord Nigel of Trafalgar, or whatever. Reason it isn't is because of personal animus and Boris Johnson being petty, quelle surprise.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    edited July 2020

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    I wold certainly agree that he was the man who got us to the point where we were actually given the choice. That took decades of campaigning and for that alone I am very grateful to him.
    He used to bang on about it when he worked in the City and many people thought him a loon. Done more damage this country that Hitler and Kaiser Bill combined.
    Ah the bitterness of losers.
    I wouldn't deny that. I've been involved in pro-Europe campaigns at various levels since the late 60's. I hope you're not going to suggest that Johnson and Cummings are other than totally self-interested.
    Not for a second. But that is not the question being debated. The vast majority of politicians are totally self interested. I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them.

    What matters is what they are fighting for and whether they achieve it and Farage was fighting for something I wholeheartedly supported and had the nous, the skill or the cunning - whichever you prefer - to actually get us to the point where we were able to make a choice.

    The comment about Hitler and Kaiser Bill is just fatuous bollocks. Hence my sore loser retort.
    Fair comment about the Hitler etc comment.
    However, in the end the proof of the pudding.......
  • nico67nico67 Posts: 4,502
    Good to see so many outraged Tories in here at the Claire Fox peerage ! Can you imagine the furore if Labour had given someone with that history a peerage .

  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 41,670
    ydoethur said:

    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    Oh good a new thread where I can spell copyright correctly.

    Blame autocorrect.
    That proves I’m too hot to work. I didn’t even think about that.
    I've been struggling to concentrate today as well.
    Not an issue on west coast unfortunately
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,846

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    I wold certainly agree that he was the man who got us to the point where we were actually given the choice. That took decades of campaigning and for that alone I am very grateful to him.
    He used to bang on about it when he worked in the City and many people thought him a loon. Done more damage this country that Hitler and Kaiser Bill combined.
    Ah the bitterness of losers.
    I wouldn't deny that. I've been involved in pro-Europe campaigns at various levels since the late 60's. I hope you're not going to suggest that Johnson and Cummings are other than totally self-interested.
    Not for a second. But that is not the question being debated. The vast majority of politicians are totally self interested. I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them.

    What matters is what they are fighting for and whether they achieve it and Farage was fighting for something I wholeheartedly supported and had the nous, the skill or the cunning - whichever you prefer - to actually get us to the point where we were able to make a choice.

    The comment about Hitler and Kaiser Bill is just fatuous bollocks. Hence my sore loser retort.
    Fair comment about the Hitler etc comment.
    However, in the end the proof of the pudding.......
    ...is that you are indeed a sore loser. Correct!
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    edited July 2020
    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr May has been knighted.

    Is that a sly jab at his predecessor? Knighted for putting up with her? Bet it is. Would be typical puerile Johnson.
    Bizarre though it sounds, it's most likely a slap at Tony Blair.

    Traditionally, former prime ministers are elevated to the Order of the Garter. Unless, of course, they refuse.

    At the moment, there are vacancies in the Garter. So the Queen could admit Blair, and Cameron if she so wished. Given that four of the other members are over 90, Theresa May would then become eligible quite soon.

    Yet although she has had many opportunities to admit Blair, the fact is she hasn't done so. Why not? Well, according to rumour, because she doesn't like him and thinks he doesn't deserve the honour.

    If so, that is remarkable because even though it was no secret she disliked Thatcher (and even said so in public, most unusually for someone so discreet) she made her a member in 1995.

    But the tradition is, that while a living Prime Minister has not been offered membership, nor will his successors.

    So knighting Philip May could be a very roundabout (and frankly inappropriate) way of honoring Theresa May, while keeping Blair in the cold.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    I am not wedded to 'ineluctable tides.' In fact, look at the earlier comments and you will note I said: 'Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.'

    But ultimately, however we cut it, the reason we have left the EU is that a majority of the British public were opposed to membership of it, and that wasn't the result of Nigel Farage.

    So to get back to the point - he wasn't the most effective political campaigner of the last 30 years.
    Who else has wanted something so singular and has achieved it, via decades of determined effort, through political means?
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Brave Farage, with naught but the Murdoch Press, the Mail, the Telegraph on his side and an inexhaustible supply of BBC television bookings.

    How valiantly he fought alone.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,164
    Pulpstar said:

    I trust those supporting the Claire Fox peerage will be as accomodating to Corbyn's various friends and acquaintances ?

    As I understand it, Claire Fox supported the IRAs right to do whatever they thought necessary for their cause. Has Fox ever criticised the actions of the other side?

    Personally I don’t care if Corbyn et al get peerages.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Maybe, maybe not. Considering nearly 100 Tory MPs voted to have a referendum against a three line whip, it was a live issue with or without Farage.
    Yes, that would be my position. It was a live issue with the Tory right, and their voters, with or without Farage.

    I do think however it would have taken another 10 years without the pressure he brought from UKIP.

    Equally, in another 10 years I think we would probably have effectively wandered out of the EU anyway, as Poland, Sweden, Hungary and any other non-euro members are going to.
    Ah thank goodness you are now accepting that without him we wouldn't have had Brexit.

    Finally and if I may say so reasonably gracefully.
    Blimey. That's a twisting of my words that even Alex Salmond would blush at.
    We Brexited in 2016. You said that without Farage we wouldn't have Brexited in 2016.

    "I do think however it would have taken another 10 years without the pressure he brought from UKIP".

    So you are proving my point that it was down to him.
  • MaxPB said:

    England case data - scaled to 100k population -

    image

    That top 10 showing exactly why the North has been locked down.
    To be followed in 3.. 2.. 1...

    - There is no evidence
    - The government panicked
    - They locked down too much
    - They locked down too little
    - etc etc.
    I doubt whether anyone who thinks the government locked down too late would dispute the need to lock down the North now. The ones moaning about it will be the same ones who have been moaning about lockdown all along.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    I am not wedded to 'ineluctable tides.' In fact, look at the earlier comments and you will note I said: 'Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.'

    But ultimately, however we cut it, the reason we have left the EU is that a majority of the British public were opposed to membership of it, and that wasn't the result of Nigel Farage.

    So to get back to the point - he wasn't the most effective political campaigner of the last 30 years.
    Who else has wanted something so singular and has achieved it, via decades of determined effort, through political means?
    Ronald Reagan and the collapse of the Soviet Union?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    edited July 2020
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

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    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    I am not wedded to 'ineluctable tides.' In fact, look at the earlier comments and you will note I said: 'Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.'

    But ultimately, however we cut it, the reason we have left the EU is that a majority of the British public were opposed to membership of it, and that wasn't the result of Nigel Farage.

    So to get back to the point - he wasn't the most effective political campaigner of the last 30 years.
    Who else has wanted something so singular and has achieved it, via decades of determined effort, through political means?
    Ronald Reagan and the collapse of the Soviet Union?
    I think they ran out of money rather than the fall of the Soviet Union being something that Ronald Reagan had dedicated himself to achieving over a number of decades.

    Edit: and that just squeaks into "the last 30 years".
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Maybe, maybe not. Considering nearly 100 Tory MPs voted to have a referendum against a three line whip, it was a live issue with or without Farage.
    Yes, that would be my position. It was a live issue with the Tory right, and their voters, with or without Farage.

    I do think however it would have taken another 10 years without the pressure he brought from UKIP.

    Equally, in another 10 years I think we would probably have effectively wandered out of the EU anyway, as Poland, Sweden, Hungary and any other non-euro members are going to.
    Ah thank goodness you are now accepting that without him we wouldn't have had Brexit.

    Finally and if I may say so reasonably gracefully.
    Blimey. That's a twisting of my words that even Alex Salmond would blush at.
    We Brexited in 2016. You said that without Farage we wouldn't have Brexited in 2016.

    "I do think however it would have taken another 10 years without the pressure he brought from UKIP".

    So you are proving my point that it was down to him.
    I had already said that he may have been important in the timing of it.

    I am certainly not going to say more than that because it wouldn't be true.
  • isamisam Posts: 40,722

    'A lot' of British Muslims have not taken the threat of coronavirus 'seriously enough' ...bloody racists...says Bradford Mosque leader...ohhh...

    ---------

    We lost a member of our congregation two weeks ago and there were 50 people gathered at his house to express their sympathies.’ A single road in Bradford registered an astonishing 17 coronavirus cases within six days, it has emerged.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8580399/Muslim-leaders-condemn-minute-lockdown-announcement-eve-Eid-abuse-power.html

    Withdraw the whip from this man immediately
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    I am not wedded to 'ineluctable tides.' In fact, look at the earlier comments and you will note I said: 'Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.'

    But ultimately, however we cut it, the reason we have left the EU is that a majority of the British public were opposed to membership of it, and that wasn't the result of Nigel Farage.

    So to get back to the point - he wasn't the most effective political campaigner of the last 30 years.
    Who else has wanted something so singular and has achieved it, via decades of determined effort, through political means?
    Ronald Reagan and the collapse of the Soviet Union?
    I think they ran out of money rather than the fall of the Soviet Union being something that Ronald Reagan had dedicated himself to achieving over a number of decades.
    Why did they run out of money?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122
    For the umpteenth time twitter gets the mood of real pople completely wrong.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    I always find Claire Fox very eloquent, and what she's saying usually very sound, politically.

    However, I am puzzled with how one journeys from revolutionary communism to libertarianism without it being a u-turn.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 31,715
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    I am not wedded to 'ineluctable tides.' In fact, look at the earlier comments and you will note I said: 'Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.'

    But ultimately, however we cut it, the reason we have left the EU is that a majority of the British public were opposed to membership of it, and that wasn't the result of Nigel Farage.

    So to get back to the point - he wasn't the most effective political campaigner of the last 30 years.
    Who else has wanted something so singular and has achieved it, via decades of determined effort, through political means?
    Ronald Reagan and the collapse of the Soviet Union?
    I think they ran out of money rather than the fall of the Soviet Union being something that Ronald Reagan had dedicated himself to achieving over a number of decades.

    Edit: and that just squeaks into "the last 30 years".
    Ran out of organising ability too, I suggest. Made a total bog of their Afghanistan intervention.
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,042
    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    I am not wedded to 'ineluctable tides.' In fact, look at the earlier comments and you will note I said: 'Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.'

    But ultimately, however we cut it, the reason we have left the EU is that a majority of the British public were opposed to membership of it, and that wasn't the result of Nigel Farage.

    So to get back to the point - he wasn't the most effective political campaigner of the last 30 years.
    Who else has wanted something so singular and has achieved it, via decades of determined effort, through political means?
    Ronald Reagan and the collapse of the Soviet Union?
    I think they ran out of money rather than the fall of the Soviet Union being something that Ronald Reagan had dedicated himself to achieving over a number of decades.

    Edit: and that just squeaks into "the last 30 years".
    Mandela.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

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    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    You are missing the basic point. You are right that by the time of the vote he was more a liability than a benefit. But we would never have got to that vote without him.
    Maybe, maybe not. Considering nearly 100 Tory MPs voted to have a referendum against a three line whip, it was a live issue with or without Farage.
    Yes, that would be my position. It was a live issue with the Tory right, and their voters, with or without Farage.

    I do think however it would have taken another 10 years without the pressure he brought from UKIP.

    Equally, in another 10 years I think we would probably have effectively wandered out of the EU anyway, as Poland, Sweden, Hungary and any other non-euro members are going to.
    Ah thank goodness you are now accepting that without him we wouldn't have had Brexit.

    Finally and if I may say so reasonably gracefully.
    Blimey. That's a twisting of my words that even Alex Salmond would blush at.
    We Brexited in 2016. You said that without Farage we wouldn't have Brexited in 2016.

    "I do think however it would have taken another 10 years without the pressure he brought from UKIP".

    So you are proving my point that it was down to him.
    I had already said that he may have been important in the timing of it.

    I am certainly not going to say more than that because it wouldn't be true.
    You explicitly said that without him we wouldn't have Brexited in 2016.

    "I do think however it would have taken another 10 years without the pressure he brought from UKIP".
  • IshmaelZIshmaelZ Posts: 21,830

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    I wold certainly agree that he was the man who got us to the point where we were actually given the choice. That took decades of campaigning and for that alone I am very grateful to him.
    He used to bang on about it when he worked in the City and many people thought him a loon. Done more damage this country that Hitler and Kaiser Bill combined.
    Ah the bitterness of losers.
    I wouldn't deny that. I've been involved in pro-Europe campaigns at various levels since the late 60's. I hope you're not going to suggest that Johnson and Cummings are other than totally self-interested.
    Not for a second. But that is not the question being debated. The vast majority of politicians are totally self interested. I wouldn't trust any of them as far as I could throw them.

    What matters is what they are fighting for and whether they achieve it and Farage was fighting for something I wholeheartedly supported and had the nous, the skill or the cunning - whichever you prefer - to actually get us to the point where we were able to make a choice.

    The comment about Hitler and Kaiser Bill is just fatuous bollocks. Hence my sore loser retort.
    Fair comment about the Hitler etc comment.
    However, in the end the proof of the pudding.......
    ...is that you are indeed a sore loser. Correct!
    I am indeed very sore at prospect of the level to which my country looks like falling. As are my children and and grandchildren who have stayed here. I don''t think those who have been brought up elsewhere are likely to return.
    I do often wonder whether leavers don't have children at all, or have them but don't like them all that much.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,052
    TOPPING said:

    Okay @NerysHughes et al NHS/COVID update:

    My mother broke her hip last week. In her local hospital orthopaedic ward.

    She is the only one in it.

    The problem at the moment is not the usual. Historically surgical throughput has been constrained by bed shortages, but at present the bottleneck is theatre capacity. Almost every surgical procedure takes twice as long at the moment because of PPE and social distancing requirements, so theatre time is at a premium. Staffing requirements are higher for similar reasons.

    So yes, elective admission wards are very quiet, but it is not simply a matter of ringing around the waiting list. Everything at the moment is held back by logistics. Its like wading in treacle. It is also why, if you do get a slot, you get deluxe treatment at present.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,540
    ydoethur said:

    kinabalu said:

    geoffw said:

    Mr May has been knighted.

    Is that a sly jab at his predecessor? Knighted for putting up with her? Bet it is. Would be typical puerile Johnson.
    Bizarre though it sounds, it's most likely a slap at Tony Blair.

    Traditionally, former prime ministers are elevated to the Order of the Garter. Unless, of course, they refuse.

    At the moment, there are vacancies in the Garter. So the Queen could admit Blair, and Cameron if she so wished. Given that four of the other members are over 90, Theresa May would then become eligible quite soon.

    Yet although she has had many opportunities to admit Blair, the fact is she hasn't done so. Why not? Well, according to rumour, because she doesn't like him and thinks he doesn't deserve the honour.

    If so, that is remarkable because even though it was no secret she disliked Thatcher (and even said so in public, most unusually for someone so discreet) she made her a member in 1995.

    But the tradition is, that while a living Prime Minister has not been offered membership, nor will his successors.

    So knighting Philip May could be a very roundabout (and frankly inappropriate) way of honoring Theresa May, while keeping Blair in the cold.
    One explanation I read suggested that since Blair is still active in politics/business its not appropriate - Major only got his in 2005 after he retired from the Carlyle Group in 2004.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 40,950
    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    I am not wedded to 'ineluctable tides.' In fact, look at the earlier comments and you will note I said: 'Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.'

    But ultimately, however we cut it, the reason we have left the EU is that a majority of the British public were opposed to membership of it, and that wasn't the result of Nigel Farage.

    So to get back to the point - he wasn't the most effective political campaigner of the last 30 years.
    Who else has wanted something so singular and has achieved it, via decades of determined effort, through political means?
    Ronald Reagan and the collapse of the Soviet Union?
    I think they ran out of money rather than the fall of the Soviet Union being something that Ronald Reagan had dedicated himself to achieving over a number of decades.
    Why did they run out of money?
    Because a succession of US Presidents had cold and proxy war fought them to a standstill.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 38,840
    edited July 2020

    DavidL said:

    My view is that at soon as he loses, virtually the entire Republican establishment will move rapidly to distance themselves from him. What is the point of Trump if he's not even a winner?

    The point of Trump is something that will keep historians gainfully employed for decades during which he will hopefully be seen to have been an increasingly odd aberration.
    hes simply the touchstone for a reaction to globalism. If it wasnt Trump it would be someone else. The more curious question is why this reaction is coming from the right rather than the left. The left has given up on defending workers and jobs which has been its traditional raison detre
    It's because the left is not prepared to garnish the protectionist economic arguments with a dollop of nostalgic nationalism and "unwokeness", aka racism and xenophobia. This refusal is (sadly) a handicap at the polls in many countries, including the USA.
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,122

    But how can that be? I thought the Government had lost all trust in its public health policy and no one could possibly approve of or comply with its decisions...
    Indeed Southam this morning was in full 'outraged of Hampstead Heath' mode.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    I always find Claire Fox very eloquent, and what she's saying usually very sound, politically.

    However, I am puzzled with how one journeys from revolutionary communism to libertarianism without it being a u-turn.

    The history of the RCP is fascinating.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 66,730
    edited July 2020

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    IshmaelZ said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    TOPPING said:

    ydoethur said:

    geoffw said:

    I wonder if Nigel F was offered a peerage. He would have fitted nicely with the nominations for non-affiliated Peerages.

    Surely he belongs in the Natural History Museum with Jeremy Corbyn rather than the House of Lords?
    He is arguably the most effective politician of the last 30 years. If that doesn't merit a peerage what does?
    The most effective politician of the last 30 years, who has never won a seat at Westminster?
    So what? He achieved, via political campaigning, a seismic change in British politics against just about everyone's expectations.
    He believes he did.

    Just as Cummings believed that he, and he alone, thwarted John Prescott's plan for a NE Assembly.

    As always, it is more complicated than that. Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.

    Ultimately, looked at with a cold eye he is a serial party hopper and egoist who campaigned on one issue and on that one issue won two minor elections with low turnouts that, rightly or wrongly, nobody took seriously. He has no friends, no influence and now he's quarelled with Banks and left the European PArliament gravy train, no money.

    So no, he doesn't deserve a place in the Lords and even if he did he's so unpopular with the actual powerbrokers nobody would nominate him for one, even without the rumours swirling of dubious foreign business activities.
    Sorry that's deluded. If there was one person who was responsible for Brexit it was Nigel Farage.
    There wasn't.

    That was the point.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    That is a bold statement.

    Without him, it may not have happened at the time it did, or the way it did.

    Equally, his brashness, dubious morality and overt populism may have put off as many people as it attracted. Do you think Leave would have won if he had been the key frontman?

    The great untold story of Brexit - so far - is that the EU was always tolerated in this country, never loved. And it turned out that in the last analysis, that wasn't enough to keep us in. It was enough for Scotland, who wanted a brake on Westminster, Northern Ireland, where there was an urgent need to avoid a return to the Troubles, and Gibraltar, where it was seen as preferable to integration with Spain. It wasn't enough for England and Wales, where it was seen as at best an expensive irrelevance and at worst, a malign and destructive influence.

    That predated Farage's rise to prominence and it would have happened anyway. He surfed a wave, rather than made it.

    Did his ability to surf that wave lead Cameron to the referendum? Yes. But it wasn't the only factor.
    Without him there would have been no Brexit.
    There you go again. Without the votes of a majority in England and Wales, many of whom thought (correctly) that he was a posh twat who didn't care about them, there would be no Brexit. That's the key.

    Stay wedded to your 'great men' theory if you wish. You aren't correct, but ultimately it's harmless if diverting.
    And you stay wedded to your "ineluctable tide of history" theory if you wish. You aren't correct either, the truth is in the middle. Farage's key role if he had one wasn't persuading voters, it was pushing Cameron to hold the referendum in the first place.
    I am not wedded to 'ineluctable tides.' In fact, look at the earlier comments and you will note I said: 'Many factors combined to take us out of the EU of which he was one part, but not the only or even the most important part.'

    But ultimately, however we cut it, the reason we have left the EU is that a majority of the British public were opposed to membership of it, and that wasn't the result of Nigel Farage.

    So to get back to the point - he wasn't the most effective political campaigner of the last 30 years.
    Who else has wanted something so singular and has achieved it, via decades of determined effort, through political means?
    Ronald Reagan and the collapse of the Soviet Union?
    I think they ran out of money rather than the fall of the Soviet Union being something that Ronald Reagan had dedicated himself to achieving over a number of decades.

    Edit: and that just squeaks into "the last 30 years".
    Ran out of organising ability too, I suggest. Made a total bog of their Afghanistan intervention.
    ~One of the factors in their running out of money was an arms race, led by Ronald Reagan, in the early 1980s. With the additional expense of Afghanistan, and later, the expense of Chernobyl, this led to Gorbachev's disastrous 'perestroika' policy in a bid to revitalise the Soviet economy, to detente with the west, withdrawal from the satellite states of Eastern Europe and Mongolia, and finally the collapse of the Soviet Union into its constituent republics - because they had run out of money.

    Was that the only factor? No. Chernobyl was important. So was Gorbachev's own catalogue of mistakes. So was the nature of soviet society.

    Was it important? Oh yes, most definitely.

    Edit - the problem with history is that it's incredibly complicated. So many different factors collide that it's tough to separate them. But here, Farage, whatever his role, wasn't the clinching factor.
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