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FPT:

Black_Rook said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

The Torygraph is suggesting that tomorrow's much-delayed Intelligence Committee report will state that the Russians tried to meddle in the Scottish referendum but not in the Brexit one (though the details are behind the paywall.)

If true then I am sure that this revelation will lead to a period of calm and measured reflection upon our recent history.

If that proves to be true why didn't Boris release it months ago?

My understanding is that Johnson couldn't release it, only the Committee itself could. I recall reading a suggestion some way down thread that the delay in forming a new Committee might be something to do with the report having been the work of Dominic Grieve and Johnson therefore wanting to suppress it out of spite. However, it seems more likely to me that it was simply delayed because No.10 was trying (ultimately unsuccessfully) to win control of the Committee, i.e. the fate of the report was incidental.

The other question this throws up (if true) is why would Russia want to interfere in Sindy but not in Brexit?

Benpointer said:

FPT:

Black_Rook said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

The Torygraph is suggesting that tomorrow's much-delayed Intelligence Committee report will state that the Russians tried to meddle in the Scottish referendum but not in the Brexit one (though the details are behind the paywall.)

If true then I am sure that this revelation will lead to a period of calm and measured reflection upon our recent history.

If that proves to be true why didn't Boris release it months ago?

My understanding is that Johnson couldn't release it, only the Committee itself could. I recall reading a suggestion some way down thread that the delay in forming a new Committee might be something to do with the report having been the work of Dominic Grieve and Johnson therefore wanting to suppress it out of spite. However, it seems more likely to me that it was simply delayed because No.10 was trying (ultimately unsuccessfully) to win control of the Committee, i.e. the fate of the report was incidental.

The other question this throws up (if true) is why would Russia want to interfere in Sindy but not in Brexit?

I expect it'll have about as much veracity as this.

https://twitter.com/jdmanjohn/status/1285110770473279488?s=20

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

FPT:

Black_Rook said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

The Torygraph is suggesting that tomorrow's much-delayed Intelligence Committee report will state that the Russians tried to meddle in the Scottish referendum but not in the Brexit one (though the details are behind the paywall.)

If true then I am sure that this revelation will lead to a period of calm and measured reflection upon our recent history.

If that proves to be true why didn't Boris release it months ago?

My understanding is that Johnson couldn't release it, only the Committee itself could. I recall reading a suggestion some way down thread that the delay in forming a new Committee might be something to do with the report having been the work of Dominic Grieve and Johnson therefore wanting to suppress it out of spite. However, it seems more likely to me that it was simply delayed because No.10 was trying (ultimately unsuccessfully) to win control of the Committee, i.e. the fate of the report was incidental.

The other question this throws up (if true) is why would Russia want to interfere in Sindy but not in Brexit?

Because they know the EU is ineffective because they have corrupted the political class in Germany. The U.K. inside is fettered; the U.K. in the process of Brexiting is distracted

Sindy would destabilise the U.K. for a generation.

But isn’t it interesting the SNP’s leader got a TV show on Russia today while the leader of the Leave campaign didn’t

"Sindy would destabilise the U.K. for a generation."

Brexit on the other hand... well it's hardly been mentioned since the vote has it?

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

FPT:

Black_Rook said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

The Torygraph is suggesting that tomorrow's much-delayed Intelligence Committee report will state that the Russians tried to meddle in the Scottish referendum but not in the Brexit one (though the details are behind the paywall.)

If true then I am sure that this revelation will lead to a period of calm and measured reflection upon our recent history.

If that proves to be true why didn't Boris release it months ago?

My understanding is that Johnson couldn't release it, only the Committee itself could. I recall reading a suggestion some way down thread that the delay in forming a new Committee might be something to do with the report having been the work of Dominic Grieve and Johnson therefore wanting to suppress it out of spite. However, it seems more likely to me that it was simply delayed because No.10 was trying (ultimately unsuccessfully) to win control of the Committee, i.e. the fate of the report was incidental.

The other question this throws up (if true) is why would Russia want to interfere in Sindy but not in Brexit?

Because they know the EU is ineffective because they have corrupted the political class in Germany. The U.K. inside is fettered; the U.K. in the process of Brexiting is distracted

Sindy would destabilise the U.K. for a generation.

But isn’t it interesting the SNP’s leader got a TV show on Russia today while the leader of the Leave campaign didn’t

The Union is terminally unstable. What solution is there other than to be done with it?

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

FPT:

Black_Rook said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

The Torygraph is suggesting that tomorrow's much-delayed Intelligence Committee report will state that the Russians tried to meddle in the Scottish referendum but not in the Brexit one (though the details are behind the paywall.)

If true then I am sure that this revelation will lead to a period of calm and measured reflection upon our recent history.

If that proves to be true why didn't Boris release it months ago?

My understanding is that Johnson couldn't release it, only the Committee itself could. I recall reading a suggestion some way down thread that the delay in forming a new Committee might be something to do with the report having been the work of Dominic Grieve and Johnson therefore wanting to suppress it out of spite. However, it seems more likely to me that it was simply delayed because No.10 was trying (ultimately unsuccessfully) to win control of the Committee, i.e. the fate of the report was incidental.

The other question this throws up (if true) is why would Russia want to interfere in Sindy but not in Brexit?

Because they know the EU is ineffective because they have corrupted the political class in Germany. The U.K. inside is fettered; the U.K. in the process of Brexiting is distracted

Sindy would destabilise the U.K. for a generation.

But isn’t it interesting the SNP’s leader got a TV show on Russia today while the leader of the Leave campaign didn’t

"corrupted the political class in Germany" is deluded. And the leader of the Leave campaign collaborates with the white supremacists in the White House.

Today's data on reported cases

Foxy said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

Its just a matter of time. Brexit is Britain down the plughole, but you are right it will be a long time before Britons see that it is a futile cul de sac.

I don't know. A well-planned Brexit phase 2 could have kept the plates spinning for quite a while. The combination of rush, malice and incompetence we are currently seeing from the UK government could make the futility very obvious very quickly.

FPT

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Free access that is achieved for free rather than by spending gross over £350 million per week on EU membership and without tying ourselves in knots following EU regulations that have nothing to do with trade and that we could better make laws for ourselves.

In other words free trade that is just free trade. Not all the other nonsense that came with it.

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

The only thing that is little is your imagination for how England can thrive outside the EU.

I don't see Canadians banging down the door to be admitted to the USA.

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

Stuartinromford said:

Foxy said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

Its just a matter of time. Brexit is Britain down the plughole, but you are right it will be a long time before Britons see that it is a futile cul de sac.

I don't know. A well-planned Brexit phase 2 could have kept the plates spinning for quite a while. The combination of rush, malice and incompetence we are currently seeing from the UK government could make the futility very obvious very quickly.

It is why I am sanguine about car crash Brexit. While obviously it does unnecessary economic damage, it does speed up rejoining. So it is a wash.

HYUFD said:

Black_Rook said:

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

FPT:

Black_Rook said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

The Torygraph is suggesting that tomorrow's much-delayed Intelligence Committee report will state that the Russians tried to meddle in the Scottish referendum but not in the Brexit one (though the details are behind the paywall.)

If true then I am sure that this revelation will lead to a period of calm and measured reflection upon our recent history.

If that proves to be true why didn't Boris release it months ago?

My understanding is that Johnson couldn't release it, only the Committee itself could. I recall reading a suggestion some way down thread that the delay in forming a new Committee might be something to do with the report having been the work of Dominic Grieve and Johnson therefore wanting to suppress it out of spite. However, it seems more likely to me that it was simply delayed because No.10 was trying (ultimately unsuccessfully) to win control of the Committee, i.e. the fate of the report was incidental.

The other question this throws up (if true) is why would Russia want to interfere in Sindy but not in Brexit?

Because they know the EU is ineffective because they have corrupted the political class in Germany. The U.K. inside is fettered; the U.K. in the process of Brexiting is distracted

Sindy would destabilise the U.K. for a generation.

But isn’t it interesting the SNP’s leader got a TV show on Russia today while the leader of the Leave campaign didn’t

The Union is terminally unstable. What solution is there other than to be done with it?

Keep it, as the Government is committed to do

Why bother?

I think we know the answer to that. Whichever Prime Minister is in charge when the country falls apart will probably be obliged to resign. That's all that's keeping the show on the road now.

Black_Rook said:

HYUFD said:

Black_Rook said:

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

FPT:

Black_Rook said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

The Torygraph is suggesting that tomorrow's much-delayed Intelligence Committee report will state that the Russians tried to meddle in the Scottish referendum but not in the Brexit one (though the details are behind the paywall.)

If true then I am sure that this revelation will lead to a period of calm and measured reflection upon our recent history.

If that proves to be true why didn't Boris release it months ago?

My understanding is that Johnson couldn't release it, only the Committee itself could. I recall reading a suggestion some way down thread that the delay in forming a new Committee might be something to do with the report having been the work of Dominic Grieve and Johnson therefore wanting to suppress it out of spite. However, it seems more likely to me that it was simply delayed because No.10 was trying (ultimately unsuccessfully) to win control of the Committee, i.e. the fate of the report was incidental.

The other question this throws up (if true) is why would Russia want to interfere in Sindy but not in Brexit?

Because they know the EU is ineffective because they have corrupted the political class in Germany. The U.K. inside is fettered; the U.K. in the process of Brexiting is distracted

Sindy would destabilise the U.K. for a generation.

But isn’t it interesting the SNP’s leader got a TV show on Russia today while the leader of the Leave campaign didn’t

The Union is terminally unstable. What solution is there other than to be done with it?

Keep it, as the Government is committed to do

Why bother?

I think we know the answer to that. Whichever Prime Minister is in charge when the country falls apart will probably be obliged to resign. That's all that's keeping the show on the road now.

As we are stronger as a nation with Scottish regiments, Scottish oil and renewable energy, Scottish whiskey, Scottish universities etc just as Scotland benefits from being in a nation which is in the top 10 economies in the world and a UN Security Council member.

The end of the Union would weaken both Scotland and England's presence in the world

Theuniondivvie said:

Nobody watching 'Once upon a time in Iraq'? Powerful stuff, using the unbeatable formula of talking to the people who were there.

Blair was the future once

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

The only thing that is little is your imagination for how England can thrive outside the EU.

I don't see Canadians banging down the door to be admitted to the USA.

Canada joining the USA isn't the same as a European country joining the EU.

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

Black_Rook said:

HYUFD said:

Black_Rook said:

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

FPT:

Black_Rook said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

The Torygraph is suggesting that tomorrow's much-delayed Intelligence Committee report will state that the Russians tried to meddle in the Scottish referendum but not in the Brexit one (though the details are behind the paywall.)

If true then I am sure that this revelation will lead to a period of calm and measured reflection upon our recent history.

If that proves to be true why didn't Boris release it months ago?

My understanding is that Johnson couldn't release it, only the Committee itself could. I recall reading a suggestion some way down thread that the delay in forming a new Committee might be something to do with the report having been the work of Dominic Grieve and Johnson therefore wanting to suppress it out of spite. However, it seems more likely to me that it was simply delayed because No.10 was trying (ultimately unsuccessfully) to win control of the Committee, i.e. the fate of the report was incidental.

The other question this throws up (if true) is why would Russia want to interfere in Sindy but not in Brexit?

Because they know the EU is ineffective because they have corrupted the political class in Germany. The U.K. inside is fettered; the U.K. in the process of Brexiting is distracted

Sindy would destabilise the U.K. for a generation.

But isn’t it interesting the SNP’s leader got a TV show on Russia today while the leader of the Leave campaign didn’t

The Union is terminally unstable. What solution is there other than to be done with it?

Keep it, as the Government is committed to do

Why bother?

I think we know the answer to that. Whichever Prime Minister is in charge when the country falls apart will probably be obliged to resign. That's all that's keeping the show on the road now.

As we are stronger as a nation with Scottish regiments, Scottish oil and renewable energy, Scottish whiskey, Scottish universities etc just as Scotland benefits from being in a nation which is in the top 10 economies in the world and a UN Security Council member.

The end of the Union would weaken both Scotland and England's presence in the world

There are no Scottish regiments (plural), and it's whisky not whiskey.
Apart from that..

Scotched that one

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

Its just a matter of time. Brexit is Britain down the plughole, but you are right it will be a long time before Britons see that it is a futile cul de sac.

I think it depends on the economics. If the UK (or whatever is left of it at the end of all this) does reasonably well then we're never going back. If it all goes horribly wrong then a return to the EU, assuming it survives itself, might be possible in a generation (and I do mean an actual generation, not six years) once attitudes have had time to shift decisively and the Brexit vote has disappeared over the historical horizon.

I'm currently 44. Even if we do end up back in the EU, I wouldn't expect it this side of my retirement.

I think @HYUFD is broadly right on this.

If things don't go as well for us as we might like, then we'll end up entering into an agreement that looks like Switzerland's, only with us probably paying rather more for it than they do. It'll be EEA (customised), with some restrictions on immigrants getting healthcare and benefits.

If things do go well, or the EU implodes (neither of which are impossible), then we won't.

I don't foresee any great likelihood we actually rejoin.

Theuniondivvie said:

HYUFD said:

Black_Rook said:

HYUFD said:

Black_Rook said:

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

FPT:

Black_Rook said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

The Torygraph is suggesting that tomorrow's much-delayed Intelligence Committee report will state that the Russians tried to meddle in the Scottish referendum but not in the Brexit one (though the details are behind the paywall.)

If true then I am sure that this revelation will lead to a period of calm and measured reflection upon our recent history.

If that proves to be true why didn't Boris release it months ago?

My understanding is that Johnson couldn't release it, only the Committee itself could. I recall reading a suggestion some way down thread that the delay in forming a new Committee might be something to do with the report having been the work of Dominic Grieve and Johnson therefore wanting to suppress it out of spite. However, it seems more likely to me that it was simply delayed because No.10 was trying (ultimately unsuccessfully) to win control of the Committee, i.e. the fate of the report was incidental.

The other question this throws up (if true) is why would Russia want to interfere in Sindy but not in Brexit?

Because they know the EU is ineffective because they have corrupted the political class in Germany. The U.K. inside is fettered; the U.K. in the process of Brexiting is distracted

Sindy would destabilise the U.K. for a generation.

But isn’t it interesting the SNP’s leader got a TV show on Russia today while the leader of the Leave campaign didn’t

The Union is terminally unstable. What solution is there other than to be done with it?

Keep it, as the Government is committed to do

Why bother?

I think we know the answer to that. Whichever Prime Minister is in charge when the country falls apart will probably be obliged to resign. That's all that's keeping the show on the road now.

As we are stronger as a nation with Scottish regiments, Scottish oil and renewable energy, Scottish whiskey, Scottish universities etc just as Scotland benefits from being in a nation which is in the top 10 economies in the world and a UN Security Council member.

The end of the Union would weaken both Scotland and England's presence in the world

There are no Scottish regiments (plural)

The Royal Scots Dragoon Guards (Carabiniers and Greys)
Scots Guards
The Royal Regiment of Scotland

HYUFD said:

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

Absolutely unequivocally not true. Both Irish and British citizens will retain freedom of movement rights post transition to each other's nations. Those rights are enshrined in the Immigration Act of 1971 and have not and won't be repealed.

“Irish nationals have a special status in UK law which is separate to and pre-dates the rights they have as EU citizens.

In short, the Republic of Ireland is not considered to be a ‘foreign country’ for the purpose of UK laws, and Irish citizens are not considered to be ‘aliens’. Furthermore, Irish citizens are treated as if they have permanent immigration permission to remain in the UK from the date they take up ‘ordinary residence’ here.”

rcs1000 said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

Its just a matter of time. Brexit is Britain down the plughole, but you are right it will be a long time before Britons see that it is a futile cul de sac.

I think it depends on the economics. If the UK (or whatever is left of it at the end of all this) does reasonably well then we're never going back. If it all goes horribly wrong then a return to the EU, assuming it survives itself, might be possible in a generation (and I do mean an actual generation, not six years) once attitudes have had time to shift decisively and the Brexit vote has disappeared over the historical horizon.

I'm currently 44. Even if we do end up back in the EU, I wouldn't expect it this side of my retirement.

I don't foresee any great likelihood we actually rejoin.

I struggle to think those philosophical about the inevitability of such can truly believe it very likely, albeit as you say not impossible. There's a reason it was fought so long and so hard in parliament and in the courts, because once the status quo has changed it takes a lot to change it back, even if it seems obvious it would be better to.

Johnson and Hancock ought to resign within the next 18 months or so. They've made too many mistakes. The main one was not shutting down flights to the UK in March.

Black_Rook said:

Charles said:

Benpointer said:

FPT:

Black_Rook said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

The Torygraph is suggesting that tomorrow's much-delayed Intelligence Committee report will state that the Russians tried to meddle in the Scottish referendum but not in the Brexit one (though the details are behind the paywall.)

If true then I am sure that this revelation will lead to a period of calm and measured reflection upon our recent history.

If that proves to be true why didn't Boris release it months ago?

My understanding is that Johnson couldn't release it, only the Committee itself could. I recall reading a suggestion some way down thread that the delay in forming a new Committee might be something to do with the report having been the work of Dominic Grieve and Johnson therefore wanting to suppress it out of spite. However, it seems more likely to me that it was simply delayed because No.10 was trying (ultimately unsuccessfully) to win control of the Committee, i.e. the fate of the report was incidental.

The other question this throws up (if true) is why would Russia want to interfere in Sindy but not in Brexit?

Because they know the EU is ineffective because they have corrupted the political class in Germany. The U.K. inside is fettered; the U.K. in the process of Brexiting is distracted

Sindy would destabilise the U.K. for a generation.

But isn’t it interesting the SNP’s leader got a TV show on Russia today while the leader of the Leave campaign didn’t

The Union is terminally unstable. What solution is there other than to be done with it?

Your second sentence makes sense, but only if you accept the first as indisputably true. Some of us don't believe it to be terminal, though it is definitely weakened and unstable. I cannot say I am particularly confident in finding a solution. But I certainly do not intend to just give up on my nation and my identity by looking or hoping for solutions because it might be seeing its end or not be successful.

I wouldn't have advised any remainer to do that, I wouldn't advise a Sindy supporter to do that when it looked less likely than it does now. As these things ultimately come down to emotion more than anything else, not cold assessment of national and supranational administrative arrangements which are, to a greater or lesser degree, ultimately artificial when you go far enough back anywhere. If enough people feel like things should be as they are, they will remain. If enough do not, it won't, and no arguments will change that.

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdf

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB

So was I. Try reading it. The only distinction drawn is that between "no routine immigration controls" and "no immigration controls" (at all). This is presumably to prevent non Irish EU citizens entering GB via the Republic without the possibility of this being monitored. It doesn't change the rights of Irish citizens to live and work in the UK (NI AND GB).

I look forward to 'Someone tries to change HYUFD's mind, Part 3879'.

Andy_JS said:

Johnson and Hancock ought to resign within the next 18 months or so. They've made too many mistakes. The main one was not shutting down flights to the UK in March.

Were there many people advising such a step, especially when there were literally hundreds of thousands of UK nationals abroad and trying to return home? Whilst there is a lot of hindsight based evidence of the impact, wasn't most of the damage done long before anyone was seriously advocating such a step at the time? There were still people flying abroad on holiday, let alone people coming here. And from memory any even minimum suggested flight restrictions were being criticised strongly from many quarters.

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdf

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB

So was I. Try reading it. The only distinction drawn is that between "no routine immigration controls" and "no immigration controls" (at all). This is presumably to prevent non Irish EU citizens entering GB via the Republic without the possibility of this being monitored. It doesn't change the rights of Irish citizens to live and work in the UK (NI AND GB).

Already a key distinction there between 'no routine immigration controls' on Republic migrants to GB and no controls at all to NI.

So already that allows ad hoc immigration controls to be imposed on migrants from the Republic of Ireland to mainland GB

No it doesn't. The distinction is whether there will be checks at the border. None of which undermines the fundamental right enshrined in treaty for Irish people to live and work here.

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdf

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.

If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.

All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB

The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.

You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdf

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB

So was I. Try reading it. The only distinction drawn is that between "no routine immigration controls" and "no immigration controls" (at all). This is presumably to prevent non Irish EU citizens entering GB via the Republic without the possibility of this being monitored. It doesn't change the rights of Irish citizens to live and work in the UK (NI AND GB).

Already a key distinction there between 'no routine immigration controls' on Republic migrants to GB and no controls at all to NI.

So already that allows ad hoc immigration controls to be imposed on migrants from the Republic of Ireland to mainland GB

No it doesn't. The distinction is whether there will be checks at the border. None of which undermines the fundamental right enshrined in treaty for Irish people to live and work here.

Yes it does, as soon as you have ad hoc immigration controls then by definition you no longer have free movement

Er, no. Not if the immigration "control" consists of "are you Irish?". "Yes". "Come on in". Which is what it amounts to.

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdf

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB

So was I. Try reading it. The only distinction drawn is that between "no routine immigration controls" and "no immigration controls" (at all). This is presumably to prevent non Irish EU citizens entering GB via the Republic without the possibility of this being monitored. It doesn't change the rights of Irish citizens to live and work in the UK (NI AND GB).

Already a key distinction there between 'no routine immigration controls' on Republic migrants to GB and no controls at all to NI.

So already that allows ad hoc immigration controls to be imposed on migrants from the Republic of Ireland to mainland GB

That's always been the case. The 1952 agreement specifically allows for the imposition of controls, and those provisions were extended in 2008 to allow the police (and not just border staff) to carry out checks.

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdf

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.

If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.

All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB

The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.

You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.

If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.

The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further

Philip_Thompson said:

CatMan said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

The only thing that is little is your imagination for how England can thrive outside the EU.

I don't see Canadians banging down the door to be admitted to the USA.

Canada joining the USA isn't the same as a European country joining the EU.

How is an American state joining the United States of America any different from a European country joining the EU?

The US is constitutionally very backward compared to the EU. It's over 200 years old, after all.

Philip_Thompson said:

CatMan said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

The only thing that is little is your imagination for how England can thrive outside the EU.

I don't see Canadians banging down the door to be admitted to the USA.

Canada joining the USA isn't the same as a European country joining the EU.

How is an American state joining the United States of America any different from a European country joining the EU?

Because the USA is a country. The EU isn't.

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdf

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.

If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.

All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB

The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.

You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.

If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin

It's brick wall time, but what do you think

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission actually means?

The fact that it might be open to "abuse" from EU citizens taking the time to become Irish citizens so that they can enter the UK may be a consequential loophole, but some loopholes just can't be closed.

rcs1000 said:

MaxPB said:

The EU recover fund looks poor but I think it's still a huge step towards federalisation as the EU is going to be selling debt directly. Once again, one wonders what part of any treaty covers this as I'm sure debt mutualisation is specifically something impossible, it may be that Lisbon will need an amendment to add this measure or loads of national courts will take issue with servicing the interest through the EU budget.

The EU has sold debt directly in the past. If you have a Bloomberg terminal, you can find its bonds listed alongside other multinational organisations.

It has never been a problem for the EU to issue debt, the issue was the Eurozone issuing it.

So Brexit could have made this easier for them.

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdf

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.

If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.

All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB

The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.

You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.

If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.

The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further

OK.

Think back fifty years.

We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.

If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.

That loophole has always existed.

Here's the thing.

Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdf

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.

If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.

All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB

The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.

You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.

If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin

It's brick wall time, but what do you think

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission actually means?

The fact that it might be open to "abuse" from EU citizens taking the time to become Irish citizens so that they can enter the UK may be a consequential loophole, but some loopholes just can't be closed.

Again, reference to the UK there includes NI where the Withdrawal Agreement does not allow for any controls on migration from the Republic to.

However the Withdrawal Agreement does allow for ad hoc 'non routine' immigration controls from the Republic to GB which is not unfettered free movement

SeaShantyIrish2 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

CatMan said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

The only thing that is little is your imagination for how England can thrive outside the EU.

I don't see Canadians banging down the door to be admitted to the USA.

Canada joining the USA isn't the same as a European country joining the EU.

How is an American state joining the United States of America any different from a European country joining the EU?

United States of America is, according to SCOTUS decision rendered just after US Civil War (Texas v White), a "perpetual union" (words used in Articles of Confederation).

Thus is like the Hotel California - you can enter, but you can never leave.

They had a civil war to reinforce the fact.

rcs1000 said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Philip_Thompson said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

Wrong. As always.

https://services.parliament.uk/Bills/2019-21/immigrationandsocialsecuritycoordinationeuwithdrawal.html

Not wrong, it only guarantees unchecked free movement from the Republic to NI

What's that got to do with the price of fish? We're not talking about "checks". We are talking about the right to enter, live and work in the UK (including GB). The fact that people might be "checked" on entry is neither here nor there.

You also have ad hoc immigration controls on intra US flights from time-to-time, and no-one is claiming they don't have freedom of movement.

I'm not sure. I think HYUFD might be.

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

rcs1000 said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

alex_ said:

HYUFD said:

Foxy said:

HYUFD said:

Benpointer said:

Black_Rook said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

Foxy said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Foxy said:

rottenborough said:

https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1285216015031336960

£66 billion?

Seriously?

Likely to be better than the deal we had with EFTA via the EEA? Or are we just running to stand still?

The EU are all over the place at present over covid and their budgets and no sign of a brexit deal on the table

Thats as mebbe. Not an answer to my question though. Is Raabs negotiation for the status quo? Or something less, or something better?

What could be better than the free access that we have to the EFTA countries at present?

We voted to leave so we have to create new trading relationships

The EU is over in the UK for better or worse and many think it will be better, others worse and only time will tell

It is true covid has complicated it especially for the EU

Still not answering the question. Is the new deal a continuation of the status quo, or is it inferior?

In other words is a reduced trading arrangement being pitched as a success?

I did see this interesting polling recently:

https://twitter.com/GoodwinMJ/status/1276518082190721026?s=19

I have no idea but going back is not an option

It certainly is an option.

I expect we will be back in within a decade or so, if they will have us.

Which they won't, because we are hopelessly divided on this topic and that's not likely to change in anything other than the very long term.

In any event, (a) nobody outside of the readership of the New European wants to go through another umpteen years of arguing over the EU, and (b) Scottish secession will be along before very much longer to deplete any remaining appetite amongst the English electorate for endless constitutional wrangling, as well as to tip the balance of power further against both pro-EU sentiment and the political forces that espouse it.

Grands projets have no attraction to a fed-up populace that wants nothing more than a bit of peace and quiet for a change.

MAybe true for the next 10 years but by the time and independent Scotland and a united Ireland are enjoying the benefits the EU, little England will feel increasingly isolated.

Even then it would still have Leave voting Wales but of course if the UK ended up with a WTO terms deal with the EU that would obviously mean Scotland would have to face tariffs on its exports to England if it voted for independence and rejoined the EU, England being its largest export destination, unless and until any trade deal was agreed with the EU as well as Scots having no free movement to England

Irish have free movement to the UK while in the EU, so why shouldn't Scots? I suspect though that the flow would be to Sxotland in any case.

They have passport free movement via the CTA, the Irish will not have free movement to GB once the transition period ends to migrate here unless they have the necessary points we need

Are you sure about that?

Yes, those in the Republic will have free movement to Northern Ireland only, not mainland GB

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/899755/UK_Points-Based_System_Further_Details_Web_Accessible.pdf

Common Travel Area (CTA)
4. The Immigration and Social Security Co-ordination (EU Withdrawal) Bill, which is currently before Parliament, clarifies the immigration status of Irish citizens and confirms there will be no change to their rights to freely enter, live and work in the UK without requiring permission. There will continue to be no routine immigration controls on journeys from within the CTA to the UK, with no immigration controls whatsoever on the Northern Ireland – Ireland land border. The Government will continue to work closely with CTA partners to facilitate legitimate travel within the CTA while tackling abuse of these arrangements.

Northern Ireland is part of the UK, I was referring to GB.

If we go to WTO terms Brexit there will be tariffs on exports from the Republic to GB and I also think it likely there will ultimately be no free movement from the Republic to GB either in such circumstances.

All previous legislation is based on UK (including NI) and Republic relations, not GB and Republic relations as it would be to all intents and purposes if the transition period ends with no trade deal for the UK with the EU but NI still in the customs union and most of the single market unlike GB

The issue of tariffs (or not) has no bearing on the Common Travel Area, nor on the rights of the Irish to live and work in the UK (and vice-versa) without restriction. Those are bilateral agreements that - in one form or another - long predate the EU.

You can think all you like that it might change in the future (and it may), but what will be the impetus for a change? It be rather unpopular in the Republic, extremely unpopular in Northern Ireland, and it's hard to see it being a great vote winner in Great Britain.

If we are to end free movement from the EU then obviously it cannot come in through the backdoor via the Republic, hence the Withdrawal Agreement effectively enables ad hoc migration controls on immigration from the Republic to GB, not full free movement across the Irish Sea from Dublin.

The more it looks like EU migrants are trying to use the Republic as a backdoor the more those controls will have to be tightened further

OK.

Think back fifty years.

We were not members of the EEC and nor was Ireland. We had the Common Travel Area with Ireland.

If you were a citizen of country with no visa requirements for Ireland (like the US) you could fly to Dublin and then drive into Northern Ireland, and probably get the ferry to the UK.

That loophole has always existed.

Here's the thing.

Being able to get into a country is not the same as being able to work and reside in a country. A Romanian could get a flight to Dublin (post Brexit), and then get a bus to Belfast and then come across by ferry to the UK. But why would he bother? He can come to the UK by waving their passport (there is after all no visa issue), and then ignore the residency rules. That's how we get Albanian car washers. They don't need the Northern Irish loophole.

50 years ago there was no free movement and far fewer US citizens would want to use Ireland to get to GB than those from say Eastern Europe.

Albanians and Romanians can come here automatically to work now under free movement rules, once the transition period ends in December that will no longer be the case