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  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,576
    kinabalu said:

    That's too divorced from the hard realities of power and money and "capital vs labour" for me. But question for you -

    When you say a child can be a different class to their parents you picture that one way only - child moving up - am I right?
    Clogs to clogs in three generations was an old Lancashire saying. My in-laws are a case study.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    edited July 2020
    MaxPB said:

    Under her definition, I'm still working class, then Kinabalu. That doesn't ring true, I own a flat in Hampstead and work for an international bank in investment markets. I'm the very definition of comfortable middle class.
    Yes. She is saying you're working class, don't kid yourself otherwise. And so was I until I didn't have to do it anymore.

    Totally understand that this is not definitive. It's a complex area that impinges on identity which is always sensitive.

    But I do think her Marxist lens on it is a useful one to use. Certainly more useful than the other extreme - that class boils down to attitudes and as such is essentially self-defined. Not sure where that gets us.

    Plus on a partisan political note. If Labour is the party of the working class it makes sense for them to define it to include most of the population.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,576
    Cyclefree said:

    He can be expected to do his master’s or mistress’s bidding.

    Also this - https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2020/06/16/rewards-for-failure/

    Good morning Ms Cyclefree; how did your daughter's business cope last weekend? Apols if you've already dealt with this, but I don't log on all day every day.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 51,272

    Clogs to clogs in three generations was an old Lancashire saying. My in-laws are a case study.
    I think that less true nowadays. Purchase of advantage prevents much downward mobility, even when deserved.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,280
    Foxy said:

    I think that less true nowadays. Purchase of advantage prevents much downward mobility, even when deserved.
    High house prices, student loans and a squeeze on good jobs may see it make a roaring return in the 2020s.
  • NerysHughesNerysHughes Posts: 3,375
    Foxy said:

    I think furlough has been quite widely abused. My spouse employing colleagues in the private sector are raking it in. Presumably true of a lot of small businesses. Not criminally, but not really its intention. I wonder if any MPs have done this.
    It is certainly improving SME's cash reserves. The Self Employed who have worked all the time are also very well off.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,076

    How do I know how long Im going to live? If its 75 Im excluded from working class on your definition, if l lived to 95 I would be eligible. This is silly.
    The "too early to relax the lockdown-ers" would say 95. The "economy is more important" brigade would say 75. :wink:
  • StuartinromfordStuartinromford Posts: 18,366

    True but now he has enormous power the queue of pneumatic blondes must be lengthening. They are very pragmatic bunch.
    The blondes may be pragmatic, but I imagine that Rishi takes Hinduism seriously in a way that his boss doesn't.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538
    kinabalu said:

    That's too divorced from the hard realities of power and money and "capital vs labour" for me. But question for you -

    When you say a child can be a different class to their parents you picture that one way only - child moving up - am I right?
    Very much no, and I consider myself an example of the other direction.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    edited July 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Yes. She is saying you're working class, don't kid yourself otherwise. And so was I until I didn't have to do it anymore.

    Totally understand that this is not definitive. It's a complex area that impinges on identity which is always sensitive.

    But I do think her Marxist lens on it is a useful one to use. Certainly more useful than the other extreme - that class boils down to attitudes and as such is essentially self-defined. Not sure where that gets us.

    Plus on a partisan political note. If Labour is the party of the working class it makes sense for them to define it to include most of the population.
    At the moment Labour is the party of no class, it lost every class at the last general election including failing to win DEs for the first time, the Tories had their highest voteshare with skilled working class C2s which they won convincingly, so the Tories are now a more working class party than Labour
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095

    I liked that poll you posted on defunding the police in New York State. Paints a different picture to some of the US polling we have seen.

    can Trump hang defund around Biden's neck? that has to be his strategy.
    Indeed, outside the inner cities that message works for Trump
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    tlg86 said:

    Very much no, and I consider myself an example of the other direction.
    That's interesting. But by which token - the Pidcock (money) or the Stocky (culture)?
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780

    A few points:
    1. I do keep pointing out that I am irrelevant. I do not make any claim to others being as mad as me to end up in a similar place, but as I keep being the topic of conversation...
    2. The party were right to reject my lunatic attempt to rejoin for the wrong reasons. But that wasn't the CLP - I had the EC on board with voting in my favour. One of the "lets shout at Labour voters on the doorstep, vote Labour" types nobbled me at national level - the GC has absolute power to reject anyone they see fit for any reason. And she did, which is (was) entirely her right. My friends in the CLP were appalled :)
    3. I had a mental crisis. I'd been part of something my entire adult life. I walked away and was comfortable having joined the LDs. Then a combination of being caged up at home, dealing with a pain in the bum Electoral Commission return and an increasingly acute need to Stop the absolute Hell that my existence has turned into pushed me over the edge. Starmer got elected, didn't impress me that much but was Not Corbyn, and my friends in Labour implored me to "come home". So a quick call to the CLP chair and I pulled the trigger. Madness.
    4. I am not a socialist. Not any more. When you're in something, or you're trying to justify something to yourself you can find yourself saying stuff because you're supposed to rather than because you wisely should do. I'm not sure what that Damascean conversion you mention is. I want Starmer to succeed - we need to purge lunatics of all colours from politics. The LibDems couldn't work with Corbyn, but could work with Starmer.

    Again, I'm irrelevant to what is going on out there. You good people have been a safe space for me to express myself during this rather interesting period in my political life, and I thank you all for it. But less about me would probably be a Good Thing!
    Fair enough, I appreciate your frankness. From those comments though I think you should still leave the door slightly ajar to reassess things in a couple of years, once you've seen how things pan out under Starmer. Starmer will almost certainly succeed and for there to be anything other than perpetual Conservative government he will need to. I am sure the Lib Dems could work with a minority Starmer-led government but I am also pretty sure that if they are attracting away the votes of people like you the prospect of there being such a government will be more remote, thanks to the electoral mathematics.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,576
    Foxy said:

    I think that less true nowadays. Purchase of advantage prevents much downward mobility, even when deserved.
    Maybe, but certainly happens. Not, perchance, quite as obvious.
    Interestingly Eldest Granddaughter lives in a bijou residence in a conservation area in Leeds. It's a significantly remodelled 'back to back'; her Leeds-living gt gt grandfather would, I suspect, have been horrified at the thought of one of his family in a 'back to back'.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    edited July 2020
    Foxy said:

    Perhaps it is my youth in the less class obsessed USA, but I find these odd distinctions. It is perfectly possible to be both blue collar and middle class there.
    Yes, their "middle class" is our "working people", isn't it. Which is the trouble with categories that are too broad. And you could say Pidcock's is too broad since it includes most people. If we're not careful it plays into the hands of those who say class is irrelevant. That we're all just individuals, end of story.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538
    kinabalu said:

    That's interesting. But by which token - the Pidcock (money) or the Stocky (culture)?
    Probably more culture, although I would note that when my grandmother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, it made financial sense for my parents to have her live with us and my mum cared for her.

    I'd say it's more about the sort of comprehensives that I went to. It wasn't until I took myself off to Godalming Sixth Form College is nice leafy Surrey that my education stopped being about making sure I got 5 A to Cs and started to be about what I should be aiming for. Sadly, that only came after I picked my A Levels and I regret some of the choices I made.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    Stocky said:

    Yes I would. And Hyacinth Bucket.

    It may be useful to group people in terms of wealth, I agree, but then (I`d argue) we are not talking about class.
    Hang on are you agreeing with me that Bucket is working class? That her modest means trumps her cultural pretensions?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Pro_Rata said:

    Is that the one from a few years ago, where some Professor from the established middle class created a new system with an idea to ease class stigma - then gave such a horrendously snobbish write up for the Technical Middle Classes (not cultured, don't do anything I'm interested in etc.) that he basically destroyed his ideals at a stroke.
    There is no class 'system' worthy of the label anymore. That no two posters seem to be able to agree even on the loosest definition is fair evidence for that.
    Money, education and influence/power of course differentiate people, but such metrics bear little relation to any fixed ideas of class.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,483
    Mr. B, but that might be indicative (or additionally or alternatively) to the divisive nature of language.

    Just look at human rights. The UN criticised the UK on these grounds when we had the temerity to evict squatting gypsies after a decade at Dale Farm, yet most people would think of North Korean concentration camps and the like when such a term is used.

    Or social justice. It might be argued that vocabulary has never been as contentious.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    The problem with Pillock is that she she's everything as class based, "the single most important aspect of a person’s life" which is rampant nonsense. She is right that many comfortably off people won't be if their income ceases and they can't replace it, but that isn't class based.

    She concludes "For years, it was unfashionable, but in an economy like ours, it makes more and more sense. I am happy that the Labour Party, too, now foregrounds class politics and that we will go into a general election to speak for our class — working-class people, the majority of people."

    Tell normals like in Leigh that they are working class and that is "about focusing on the collective power we have, and on solidarity" and they'll tell you to do one. And rightly so. Unless Starmer can bad aside that kind of language Labour are really going to lose their ability to speak to these voters in these places.
    Totally agree with you about the challenge of presentation.

    However, I concur with her that linking "working class" to how much money you have is a politically more useful concept than linking it to culture and attitudes.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774
    Engrossing Politico article about a Michigan congresswoman:
    https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/07/10/elissa-slotkin-congress-trump-351513

    Interesting in its own right, but gives some insight on how the November election is likely to be fought.
    Politico will be running a series of such articles on likely close contested House seats, and it looks well worth watching out for if you're interested in the contest.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,280
    kinabalu said:

    Totally agree with you about the challenge of presentation.

    However, I concur with her that linking "working class" to how much money you have is a politically more useful concept than linking it to culture and attitudes.
    If it includes debt Donald Trump would be working class for most of his life by her definition despite being one of the most exploitative capitalists in the world.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    HYUFD said:

    At the moment Labour is the party of no class, it lost every class at the last general election including failing to win DEs for the first time, the Tories had their highest voteshare with skilled working class C2s which they won convincingly, so the Tories are now a more working class party than Labour
    Labour have no class? I'm not sure how to take that.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 29,849

    Fair enough, I appreciate your frankness. From those comments though I think you should still leave the door slightly ajar to reassess things in a couple of years, once you've seen how things pan out under Starmer. Starmer will almost certainly succeed and for there to be anything other than perpetual Conservative government he will need to. I am sure the Lib Dems could work with a minority Starmer-led government but I am also pretty sure that if they are attracting away the votes of people like you the prospect of there being such a government will be more remote, thanks to the electoral mathematics.
    My time in Labour is done. I realised that last year (it had been a steady build towards the point I walked) and it was screamingly obvious once my delusional "hey lets rejoin and smite the left" action kicked in. I would be very happy to see Starmer replace Johnson as PM and its good for everyone in politics including the Tories for Labour get its shit together finally.

    I want to build something new. Can't do that in Labour. Can't pay lip service to stuff I don't believe in because they do.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    tlg86 said:

    Probably more culture, although I would note that when my grandmother was diagnosed with Alzheimer's, it made financial sense for my parents to have her live with us and my mum cared for her.

    I'd say it's more about the sort of comprehensives that I went to. It wasn't until I took myself off to Godalming Sixth Form College is nice leafy Surrey that my education stopped being about making sure I got 5 A to Cs and started to be about what I should be aiming for. Sadly, that only came after I picked my A Levels and I regret some of the choices I made.
    Ah, I see. Well I sense you're still young and therefore much can go right from here.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    Foxy said:

    I think that less true nowadays. Purchase of advantage prevents much downward mobility, even when deserved.
    I think that is one of the impacts of private education. It puts quite a high floor on downward mobility.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538
    edited July 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Ah, I see. Well I sense you're still young and therefore much can go right from here.
    Oh, don't worry, if I had kids they'd be middle class or whatever. No, it's more that so much of where your life goes is determined by decisions you make when you're young.

    I can't remember where I read it, but someone made an observation at the BBC that there is a big class divide. Basically, those from a working class background tend to get jobs that require technical expertise. The fluffier bullshitty type of jobs are the preserve of the middle to upper classes.

    I think that's probably true in a lot of organisations, both in the public and private sector.
  • Wulfrun_PhilWulfrun_Phil Posts: 4,780
    Foxy said:

    I think furlough has been quite widely abused. My spouse employing colleagues in the private sector are raking it in. Presumably true of a lot of small businesses. Not criminally, but not really its intention. I wonder if any MPs have done this.
    I'm a director of a small business on a voluntary basis - a private members golf club (with most of our members definitely C2s, not your usual stereotype of golfers). We furloughed 7 of our 11 employees originally, 2 came back in May when the course reopened, 4 this month when the clubhouse and bar reopened, and 1 is going to return next month. It looks like we're now going to get a £7k from the public purse because we're re-employing all of them, but we were always going to do that anyway. Ker-ching.

    Firms will re-employ staff, or not, based on the needs of their business going forward, not on whether the government is going to bung them enough to pay a couple of weeks' wages if they do so.

    It's not abuse, but it's still a use of public money to reward the lucky recipient to no obvious public benefit. You could say exactly the same about public money lost to fraud.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812


    Good morning Ms Cyclefree; how did your daughter's business cope last weekend? Apols if you've already dealt with this, but I don't log on all day every day.
    You don't log on all day every day? Bizarre attitude.
  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,280
    tlg86 said:

    Oh, don't worry, if I had kids they'd be middle class or whatever. No, it's more that so much of where your life goes is determined by decisions you make when you're young.

    I can't remember where I read it, but someone made an observation at the BBC that there is a big class divide. Basically, those from a working class background tend to get jobs that require technical expertise. The fluffier bullshitty type of jobs are the preserve of the middle to upper classes.

    I think that's probably true in a lot of organisations, both in the public and private sector.
    Is that class or public school? Obviously heavily linked but dont think a middle class state school kid gets the bullshitter high paying jobs either.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405
    kinabalu said:

    I think that is one of the impacts of private education. It puts quite a high floor on downward mobility.
    That is its primary function. Smart and motivated kids do perfectly well at all but the most dysfunctional state schools. Private education is there to create a glass floor and promote the spread of well-spoken mediocrities across privileged positions in society.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538

    Is that class or public school? Obviously heavily linked but dont think a middle class state school kid gets the bullshitter high paying jobs either.
    I don't know, to be honest. Clearly the public schools contribute a decent number, but I think the Milibands show what can be achieved by those who go to the right kind of comps and have the right type of parents.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,033

    Fair enough, I appreciate your frankness. From those comments though I think you should still leave the door slightly ajar to reassess things in a couple of years, once you've seen how things pan out under Starmer. Starmer will almost certainly succeed and for there to be anything other than perpetual Conservative government he will need to. I am sure the Lib Dems could work with a minority Starmer-led government but I am also pretty sure that if they are attracting away the votes of people like you the prospect of there being such a government will be more remote, thanks to the electoral mathematics.
    Simple answer and one which would give Starmer a boost (and the LibDems too) is for Labour to promise to bring in proportional representation - and not a top-down List system, STV.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,033

    I liked that poll you posted on defunding the police in New York State. Paints a different picture to some of the US polling we have seen.

    can Trump hang defund around Biden's neck? that has to be his strategy.
    No he can't, Biden is too well known.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405

    Is that class or public school? Obviously heavily linked but dont think a middle class state school kid gets the bullshitter high paying jobs either.
    State school middle class kids need a veneer of technical expertise even if there is a strong fluffy bullshit element. Eg in finance, economists=frequently state school; sales=almost always private. Public school people always give each other jobs, though. The one Old Etonian I know works for another one.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    How do I know how long Im going to live? If its 75 Im excluded from working class on your definition, if l lived to 95 I would be eligible. This is silly.
    It's silly if we get too literal about it. My point is mainly that of the 2 extremes - class is all about money or all about attitudes - I prefer the 1st one. I think that's more useful when it comes to the true economic interest of people (whether they see it or not).

    But OK, since I don't like to dodge questions. We don't know how long you're going to live. But remember we've said that when you become a pensioner - at say 65 - you remain in the class you were in on the day before that event. Thus at this point we only need to ascertain if your wealth is sufficient to live comfortably on UNTIL you reach 65. If it is, you can be "Stocky" working class but not "Pidcock" working class.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538

    State school middle class kids need a veneer of technical expertise even if there is a strong fluffy bullshit element. Eg in finance, economists=frequently state school; sales=almost always private. Public school people always give each other jobs, though. The one Old Etonian I know works for another one.
    That's an interesting observation. I always think of economists as being more likely to come from a middle class background because it isn't something taught at GCSE.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,033
    kinabalu said:

    Yes. She is saying you're working class, don't kid yourself otherwise. And so was I until I didn't have to do it anymore.

    Totally understand that this is not definitive. It's a complex area that impinges on identity which is always sensitive.

    But I do think her Marxist lens on it is a useful one to use. Certainly more useful than the other extreme - that class boils down to attitudes and as such is essentially self-defined. Not sure where that gets us.

    Plus on a partisan political note. If Labour is the party of the working class it makes sense for them to define it to include most of the population.
    Just occurred to me.
    If nowadays you can choose your Gender, surely you should be allowed to choose your Class.
    I suspect that those allowing the former might be against allowing the latter.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,576

    I'm a director of a small business on a voluntary basis - a private members golf club (with most of our members definitely C2s, not your usual stereotype of golfers). We furloughed 7 of our 11 employees originally, 2 came back in May when the course reopened, 4 this month when the clubhouse and bar reopened, and 1 is going to return next month. It looks like we're now going to get a £7k from the public purse because we're re-employing all of them, but we were always going to do that anyway. Ker-ching.

    Firms will re-employ staff, or not, based on the needs of their business going forward, not on whether the government is going to bung them enough to pay a couple of weeks' wages if they do so.

    It's not abuse, but it's still a use of public money to reward the lucky recipient to no obvious public benefit. You could say exactly the same about public money lost to fraud.
    Grandson Two, as a sixth former, is employed part-time by the local golf club and of course has been furloughed, much to his father's surprise. And, to some degree, envy since he's been working right though and didn't furlough any of his staff for some time.
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,508

    I'm a director of a small business on a voluntary basis - a private members golf club (with most of our members definitely C2s, not your usual stereotype of golfers). We furloughed 7 of our 11 employees originally, 2 came back in May when the course reopened, 4 this month when the clubhouse and bar reopened, and 1 is going to return next month. It looks like we're now going to get a £7k from the public purse because we're re-employing all of them, but we were always going to do that anyway. Ker-ching.

    Firms will re-employ staff, or not, based on the needs of their business going forward, not on whether the government is going to bung them enough to pay a couple of weeks' wages if they do so.

    It's not abuse, but it's still a use of public money to reward the lucky recipient to no obvious public benefit. You could say exactly the same about public money lost to fraud.
    It's not abuse by the businesses I agree, more like a sugary treat for Tory supporters. Can't imagine the punters getting anything out of it.

  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 34,576
    tlg86 said:

    That's an interesting observation. I always think of economists as being more likely to come from a middle class background because it isn't something taught at GCSE.
    It might not often be taught, but it's available. Partly covered by Business Studies.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,924
    Glued to the Cricket day 3

    A little disappointed my Draw bet is only offering a £15 cash out profit

    The Draw
    6.2
    £82.00 Stake
    £426.40 profit if its a draw

    Current cash out £97.75

  • noneoftheabovenoneoftheabove Posts: 24,280
    kinabalu said:

    It's silly if we get too literal about it. My point is mainly that of the 2 extremes - class is all about money or all about attitudes - I prefer the 1st one. I think that's more useful when it comes to the true economic interest of people (whether they see it or not).

    But OK, since I don't like to dodge questions. We don't know how long you're going to live. But remember we've said that when you become a pensioner - at say 65 - you remain in the class you were in on the day before that event. Thus at this point we only need to ascertain if your wealth is sufficient to live comfortably on UNTIL you reach 65. If it is, you can be "Stocky" working class but not "Pidcock" working class.
    Sorry to be a literal pedant and all that but it really is still nonsensical. At 64y 11m everyone is no longer working class, as they only need a months average wages. By the last day they only need one days average wages to prevent them being working class. At retirement date their class is fixed, so you have no working class retirees.

    The group the Labour party has really lost are working class retirees.
  • StockyStocky Posts: 10,279
    kinabalu said:

    Hang on are you agreeing with me that Bucket is working class? That her modest means trumps her cultural pretensions?
    I`m not knowledgeable about the Bucket character - but I understand the joke is that she is working class pretending to be middle class? So, yes, I`m agreeing with you - she is and will always be working class. No matter what she thinks and no matter the wealth she has. But, as I`ve said, I don`t find class a particularly useful topic of discussion.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774

    I'm a director of a small business on a voluntary basis - a private members golf club (with most of our members definitely C2s, not your usual stereotype of golfers). We furloughed 7 of our 11 employees originally, 2 came back in May when the course reopened, 4 this month when the clubhouse and bar reopened, and 1 is going to return next month. It looks like we're now going to get a £7k from the public purse because we're re-employing all of them, but we were always going to do that anyway. Ker-ching.

    Firms will re-employ staff, or not, based on the needs of their business going forward, not on whether the government is going to bung them enough to pay a couple of weeks' wages if they do so.

    It's not abuse, but it's still a use of public money to reward the lucky recipient to no obvious public benefit. You could say exactly the same about public money lost to fraud.
    As Sunak acknowledged in his comments on deadweight loss.
    Doing anything more targeted takes longer, and ties up administrators, preventing them from looking at the next thing. Acting fast in emergencies - and it's hard to see our current state as anything other than a continuing economic emergency - comes with costs; acting slowly comes with arguably greater costs.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    algarkirk said:

    100% agree. Plus there is the extraordinary fact that, for example, the local governments that run Yorkshire (population 5.4 million) is treated as a collection of waste bin emptiers, the local government that runs Scotland (population 5.5 million) is treated as the Parliament of a major world power.

    Dry your eyes mate, get off your arse and start campaigning; in 70 years or so your county might get the respect you think it deserves. These things aren't handed to you on a plate, regardless of how entitled you 'Devolution just isn't FAIR!' Johnnies feel.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_Party
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 76,774

    No he can't, Biden is too well known.
    And has, in any event, publicly disavowed the concept.
  • Pagan2Pagan2 Posts: 10,808
    edited July 2020
    kinabalu said:

    Totally agree with you about the challenge of presentation.

    However, I concur with her that linking "working class" to how much money you have is a politically more useful concept than linking it to culture and attitudes.
    Linking groups to anything is in no way useful. This is why identity politics which your form of class politics is doesnt work. How much money I have would put me in the same group as a friend who works in a shop. What we want a government to do however would be very different. How then is it in anyway useful classing as both part of the same group. The same applies when you try and think of all other groups....members of the group want different things from each other
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    tlg86 said:

    Oh, don't worry, if I had kids they'd be middle class or whatever. No, it's more that so much of where your life goes is determined by decisions you make when you're young.

    I can't remember where I read it, but someone made an observation at the BBC that there is a big class divide. Basically, those from a working class background tend to get jobs that require technical expertise. The fluffier bullshitty type of jobs are the preserve of the middle to upper classes.

    I think that's probably true in a lot of organisations, both in the public and private sector.
    Well I will worry - but thanks for the reassurance. And yes, I think you're right on both scores. Decisions get made when young that you come to realize later were BIG decisions and this can work both ways depending on pure luck half the time. "I'm so glad I did that" vs "Oh if only I could go back".

    Public school confidence leading to lifelong success as a bullshitter? - look no further than 10 Downing St.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,538

    It might not often be taught, but it's available. Partly covered by Business Studies.
    I'd have done business studies GCSE had I not been forced by my school to do religious education.
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578

    I'm a director of a small business on a voluntary basis - a private members golf club (with most of our members definitely C2s, not your usual stereotype of golfers). We furloughed 7 of our 11 employees originally, 2 came back in May when the course reopened, 4 this month when the clubhouse and bar reopened, and 1 is going to return next month. It looks like we're now going to get a £7k from the public purse because we're re-employing all of them, but we were always going to do that anyway. Ker-ching.

    Firms will re-employ staff, or not, based on the needs of their business going forward, not on whether the government is going to bung them enough to pay a couple of weeks' wages if they do so.

    It's not abuse, but it's still a use of public money to reward the lucky recipient to no obvious public benefit. You could say exactly the same about public money lost to fraud.
    Another way to look at it is that it is effectively a Government subsidy for keeping firms in business and the wheels in motion. Take Phil's comment: his small business gets £7K extra of public money that it could use to pay bills outstanding that generates cash for someone else etc. That might be the main purpose of it as well as encouraging people to keep workers - if it is, as long as firms do not just hoard cash (which is a possibility), I am happy with it.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    edited July 2020

    That is its primary function. Smart and motivated kids do perfectly well at all but the most dysfunctional state schools. Private education is there to create a glass floor and promote the spread of well-spoken mediocrities across privileged positions in society.
    Which is of great value to those in the latter group and their families. Fees justified from their point of view.

    Still, as per yesterday, although a meritocracy would be a step forward it's not what I regard as the dream.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    This discussion about class is totally outdated, what you are is a marketing target segment along the lines of PRISM and other demographic classifications. We’re only here to make other people money but at least if the application of marketing segment is accurate you may get offers you are interested in. As an aside the SDP used this demographic segmentation to recruit members, if I remember correctly it was mondo driving red wine drinkers who belonged to the national trust.
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    A layer that is rarely discussed and hasn't been on here is the underclass, benefit dependent, mostly single parents, alcohol and drug abuse, low level education. I'd guess they make up 10% of the electorate and very few of them vote.

    I can't imagine many on here come anywhere near these people in every respect.
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483

    Sorry to be a literal pedant and all that but it really is still nonsensical. At 64y 11m everyone is no longer working class, as they only need a months average wages. By the last day they only need one days average wages to prevent them being working class. At retirement date their class is fixed, so you have no working class retirees.

    The group the Labour party has really lost are working class retirees.
    Because they read the Mail
  • Daveyboy1961Daveyboy1961 Posts: 4,508
    Does this "company" have a branch office in County Durham perhaps?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    DavidL said:

    Dundee has a really chronic problem with drugs and this has aggravated mental health issues in the city. It has a lot of poor housing and very poor leadership.

    Although there have been successes in the City, such as the Welcome trust expansion of the University, the R&A museum and some games makers they have provided a smallish number of jobs compared with the large number of semi-skilled jobs that have been lost from the likes of NCR and, in the last month, the closure of Michelin which has been coming for 2 years. This has drained money out of the City. You could see the consequences in the shopping centres in Dundee pre lockdown. I dread to think what we are going to see over the next year.
    Dundee has an R&A museum? I wouldn't have thought portly Pringle wearers would be the saviour of anywhere bar St Andrews, but whatever it takes..
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945
    coach said:

    A layer that is rarely discussed and hasn't been on here is the underclass, benefit dependent, mostly single parents, alcohol and drug abuse, low level education. I'd guess they make up 10% of the electorate and very few of them vote.

    I can't imagine many on here come anywhere near these people in every respect.

    I do.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    I'm a director of a small business on a voluntary basis - a private members golf club (with most of our members definitely C2s, not your usual stereotype of golfers). We furloughed 7 of our 11 employees originally, 2 came back in May when the course reopened, 4 this month when the clubhouse and bar reopened, and 1 is going to return next month. It looks like we're now going to get a £7k from the public purse because we're re-employing all of them, but we were always going to do that anyway. Ker-ching.

    Firms will re-employ staff, or not, based on the needs of their business going forward, not on whether the government is going to bung them enough to pay a couple of weeks' wages if they do so.

    It's not abuse, but it's still a use of public money to reward the lucky recipient to no obvious public benefit. You could say exactly the same about public money lost to fraud.
    It does seem to be an odd measure. I suppose the idea is to prop up payrolls for a short while longer and hope the recovery takes off very quickly.
  • ClippPClippP Posts: 1,964
    kinabalu said:
    Depressing, but at the same time unsurprising.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 65,564
    Still not convinced. There is a long way to go.

    Plus, he'll refuse to leave even if he does lose. 2020 is going to get better and better.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945
    MrEd said:
    MrEd said:

    Spot on:

    Yes but. What's the solution?
    For the US Right it is more and more powerful weapons in the hands of Police and everyone else.
    That isn't working.

  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    dixiedean said:

    I do.
    In which case you'll know who I'm talking about. Its an ever growing layer of society
  • MrEdMrEd Posts: 5,578
    dixiedean said:

    Listening to the quotes from the people in those neighbourhoods, what they want to quell the problem is more police on the streets, not discussions on systemic racism.

    I agree kitting out the US Police as though they are a mini-army is not the best way of dealing with things but there is an argument for saying you need more cops out and about.

    As has been pointed out, if you "defund" the Police / fewer Police, the ones that get impacted the most are the poor. The wealthy can afford to hire their own armed security guards (South Africa as an example)
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    I believe there are now seven social classes. You can even find out which one you are part of here:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

    I am a member of the Elite group, much to my dismay...
    But it doesn't say what % of the country falls into each of the 7.

    If (say) 15% are scoring Elite that would devalue the label.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945
    coach said:

    In which case you'll know who I'm talking about. Its an ever growing layer of society
    Is it growing? I don't know. However, the issues you outline are separate but often complimentary and tend tore-inforce each other.
    Because they don't vote no Party is interested in extra mental health, drug and alcohol treatment, or in proper further and remedial education and training.
    They only become interested when it becomes crime against persons or property.
    When folk enter the criminal justice system the battle is largely lost.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620

    Dundee has an R&A museum? I wouldn't have thought portly Pringle wearers would be the saviour of anywhere bar St Andrews, but whatever it takes..
    I think he must mean the V&A branch, obviously. But there are also the RRS Discovery and HMS Unicorn for those of us more interested in ships.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945
    edited July 2020
    MrEd said:

    Dixiedean:

    You also need more social, mental health, drug and alcohol and youth workers, as well as education services. More and more of these functions have been laid off on a Police force neither trained nor often willing to tackle them.
    These are woefully lacking.

    Edit: Blockquote errors.
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    Stocky said:

    I`m not knowledgeable about the Bucket character - but I understand the joke is that she is working class pretending to be middle class? So, yes, I`m agreeing with you - she is and will always be working class. No matter what she thinks and no matter the wealth she has. But, as I`ve said, I don`t find class a particularly useful topic of discussion.
    OK. I think I spy a fly in your ointment on this one but I will take the hint. Some other time.

    "Keeping Up Appearances" - Gently amusing at times but not the greatest show. Wouldn't go out of your way to hunt it down.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    kinabalu said:

    But it doesn't say what % of the country falls into each of the 7.

    If (say) 15% are scoring Elite that would devalue the label.
    It does at the end, 6% are Elite, 25% established middle class, 6% technical middle class, 15% new affluent workers, 14% traditional working class, 19% emergent service workers and 15% Precariat
  • coachcoach Posts: 250
    dixiedean said:

    Is it growing? I don't know. However, the issues you outline are separate but often complimentary and tend tore-inforce each other.
    Because they don't vote no Party is interested in extra mental health, drug and alcohol treatment, or in proper further and remedial education and training.
    They only become interested when it becomes crime against persons or property.
    When folk enter the criminal justice system the battle is largely lost.
    A short while ago a poster was talking about social issues in Dundee, he could have been discussing virtually anywhere in the country.

    I assume you're in Liverpool? I was there this time last year, some great places but in the city centre the beggars were lined up every 50 yards or so, some had card terminals!

    I'm sorry to say there is an underbelly that is rotten and growing, I've no idea how to stop or correct it.
  • MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 31,327
    HYUFD said:

    Boris will not increase taxes he will borrow to fund increased spending, Starmer however would raise taxes on middle England
    I have found a flaw in your plan. What if Boris wins, and Starmer is not PM in 4 years time? Does the magic money tree work for a full ten years?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095
    edited July 2020

    State school middle class kids need a veneer of technical expertise even if there is a strong fluffy bullshit element. Eg in finance, economists=frequently state school; sales=almost always private. Public school people always give each other jobs, though. The one Old Etonian I know works for another one.
    According to the Sutton Trust the jobs which are still at least 50% private school educated are commercial barristers and judges, city lawyers, top medics and military officers and journalists and Tory cabinet ministers (though most Tory MPs overall are now state educated)

    https://www.suttontrust.com/our-research/leading-people-2016-education-background/
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    Dry your eyes mate, get off your arse and start campaigning; in 70 years or so your county might get the respect you think it deserves. These things aren't handed to you on a plate, regardless of how entitled you 'Devolution just isn't FAIR!' Johnnies feel.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yorkshire_Party
    My dad is always going on about this - a grumpy comparison between Scotland and Yorkshire - and guess who he voted for (for the 1st time) in the GE?

    I was quite taken aback. But I think it was more that he could not stand Johnson or Corbyn than it was a genuine desire for Yindy.
  • tlg86 said:

    That's an interesting observation. I always think of economists as being more likely to come from a middle class background because it isn't something taught at GCSE.
    I did Economics GCSE, didn't want to do Geography, History or RE...
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    kinabalu said:

    My dad is always going on about this - a grumpy comparison between Scotland and Yorkshire - and guess who he voted for (for the 1st time) in the GE?

    I was quite taken aback. But I think it was more that he could not stand Johnson or Corbyn than it was a genuine desire for Yindy.
    Are William the B*****d and Henry VIII still unpopular down there?
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    Carnyx said:

    I think he must mean the V&A branch, obviously. But there are also the RRS Discovery and HMS Unicorn for those of us more interested in ships.
    Yeah, I was just being annoying :)

    Having visited Dundee on and off over the years I was pleasantly surprised by the transformation of the waterfront, though it still seems in thrall to the combustion engine. I've only seen the V&A from the outside but it does look impressive. My partner has visited it a couple of times and thought there was a slight sense of the exhibits being secondary to the building but perhaps that will change as they get into their stride (current Covid disaster notwithstanding).

    Always thought Dundee was treated a bit unfairly, you can't beat a city at the mouth of a river with wide vistas and a couple of almost iconic bridges.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 127,095

    I have found a flaw in your plan. What if Boris wins, and Starmer is not PM in 4 years time? Does the magic money tree work for a full ten years?
    Yes, Boris does not care about the defict, he is a populist
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    kinabalu said:

    My dad is always going on about this - a grumpy comparison between Scotland and Yorkshire - and guess who he voted for (for the 1st time) in the GE?

    I was quite taken aback. But I think it was more that he could not stand Johnson or Corbyn than it was a genuine desire for Yindy.
    The SNP were never too proud to take a 'these bastards are both cheeks of the same arse' vote.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,945
    coach said:

    A short while ago a poster was talking about social issues in Dundee, he could have been discussing virtually anywhere in the country.

    I assume you're in Liverpool? I was there this time last year, some great places but in the city centre the beggars were lined up every 50 yards or so, some had card terminals!

    I'm sorry to say there is an underbelly that is rotten and growing, I've no idea how to stop or correct it.
    We know what works. Early specialist intervention. Not in every case of course as people are free not to co-operate or engage.
    But this costs money for a group who don't vote. So it doesn't happen. See your GP and get sertraline or citalopram is the default solution.
  • CarnyxCarnyx Posts: 44,620
    edited July 2020

    Yeah, I was just being annoying :)

    Having visited Dundee on and off over the years I was pleasantly surprised by the transformation of the waterfront, though it still seems in thrall to the combustion engine. I've only seen the V&A from the outside but it does look impressive. My partner has visited it a couple of times and thought there was a slight sense of the exhibits being secondary to the building but perhaps that will change as they get into their stride (current Covid disaster notwithstanding).

    Always thought Dundee was treated a bit unfairly, you can't beat a city at the mouth of a river with wide vistas and a couple of almost iconic bridges.
    Three, or rather two and some bits - the piers of the Bouch railway bridge are still visible.

    It's not unusual in those modern museum developments to [edit] have a slight sense of the building (an unkind person might say the architects) being given al;most more priority than anything else. But that's what it takes to 'transform' a city those days, we are told. And (apart from Hartlepool) no other place has its own Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars RN frigate.

    I didn't really get to know Dundee until quite late in life and was quite taken aback to find that they had demolished a swathe between the city centre and the docks for the main roads from the road bridge - I must go back to see how it looks now.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 43,344
    With slight reference to A. Meeks' recent piece.

    https://twitter.com/anneapplebaum/status/1281451605427183616?s=20

    Fun times.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,713
    Very amusing to log on to PB (which I don't do all day every day) and see people are discussing class.

    What on earth is the point?
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812

    Just occurred to me.
    If nowadays you can choose your Gender, surely you should be allowed to choose your Class.
    I suspect that those allowing the former might be against allowing the latter.
    I don't think that follows. But you're probably right to say that those most relaxed about self ID of gender are considerably less relaxed about the notion that class is purely a matter of self ID.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,362
    TOPPING said:

    Very amusing to log on to PB (which I don't do all day every day) and see people are discussing class.

    What on earth is the point?

    Would you prefer we discuss AV instead? ;)
  • sarissasarissa Posts: 2,108
    Carnyx said:

    Three, or rather two and some bits - the piers of the Bouch railway bridge are still visible.

    It's not unusual in those modern museum developments to [edit] have a slight sense of the building (an unkind person might say the architects) being given al;most more priority than anything else. But that's what it takes to 'transform' a city those days, we are told. And (apart from Hartlepool) no other place has its own Revolutionary and Napoleonic Wars RN frigate.

    I didn't really get to know Dundee until quite late in life and was quite taken aback to find that they had demolished a swathe between the city centre and the docks for the main roads from the road bridge - I must go back to see how it looks now.
    Also curious is the location of allotments high on the Law giving them the best view in the city:

    http://viewfinderpanoramas.org/panoramas/CEN/DUNDEE.GIF
  • kinabalukinabalu Posts: 44,812
    ClippP said:

    Depressing, but at the same time unsurprising.
    You say that. But Gove and Cummings - who are the government let's be honest - are meant to be passionate, ideologically driven reformers largely free of personal self-interest. Quite a slap in the face for us all if this is not the case.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,454
    I would suggest older people are significantly over-represented among those "unexplained" excess deaths, however.
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 22,695
    I come out as Technical Middle Class.

    Fair enough for someone from a working class background with an engineering degree.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    So I’ve watched a Drakeford and listened to the journalists ( generally useless questions) and I am in the dark about when we can have more than one household round outside in the garden, and when we could have people round.indoors.

    As far as I could tell nothing at all was mentioned or questioned about these issues.

    I can go to the pub two metre spaced outside from Monday so by inference can I have friends round then in the garden two metre spaced?

    I can get a tattoo on the 27th ac which is presumably indoors and I assume the needle isn’t two metres long, and I can go indoors to the pub from Aug 3rd two metre spaced ( well sort of with official wiggle room if not practical), so I guess by inference somewhere between the 27th and the 3rd you might be allowed to share a spaghetti bolognese indoors At home at a two metre long table?

    Or can I?

    Answers on a post card please to M Drakeford, Cardiff Bay.

    Or I could just drive to friends in England spend money there and stay
    overnight because at least it’s clearer there what you can do personally.
  • OnlyLivingBoyOnlyLivingBoy Posts: 16,405

    Yeah, I was just being annoying :)

    Having visited Dundee on and off over the years I was pleasantly surprised by the transformation of the waterfront, though it still seems in thrall to the combustion engine. I've only seen the V&A from the outside but it does look impressive. My partner has visited it a couple of times and thought there was a slight sense of the exhibits being secondary to the building but perhaps that will change as they get into their stride (current Covid disaster notwithstanding).

    Always thought Dundee was treated a bit unfairly, you can't beat a city at the mouth of a river with wide vistas and a couple of almost iconic bridges.
    I love Dundee. The Verdant Works jute museum is very interesting. I felt I came away understanding the place a lot better. It doesn't have a great press in Scotland, neglected for being outside the central belt proper and much more urban and poor than its surrounding areas. But as you note a stunning location and nice people too.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,713
    RobD said:

    Would you prefer we discuss AV instead? ;)
    There is only one permitted answer on this site.
  • QuincelQuincel Posts: 4,042
    Anyone else noticed Ladbrokes have disappeared off Oddschecker? I hope it's temporary. Are there any more comprehensive rivals?
This discussion has been closed.