politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A PBer lobbies the government over not being able to see his m

Very good and moving article. Apologies for not knowing how these things work but can you not, as guardians or can your mother not simply walk or wheel herself out of the place and meet you outside?

FPT

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

anotherex_tory said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kinabalu said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

Biden and some of the left want the 230 protection removed as well - they see it as protecting Twitter et al from the consequences of their publishing material.

The traditional media see removing the protection as levelling the playing field.

Ironically, because DT has trodden on the issue with his fat feet, everyone else has gone quiet on this.

Yes. It might be a good move but the fact that Trump is considering it purely because he himself is in a spat with Twitter rather undermines its appeal.

Well that's utterly stupid isn't it? If something is a positive development, who cares if it happens for negative reasons? It's probably the way things happen more often than not.

This is true as a general rule. But we're talking Trump here. If he is pro something that is in and of itself a strong piece of evidence in the debit column. Not to say it can't be outweighed by the credit side but it's off to a bad start and has some catching up to do.

I often hear this argument on PB. 'How can you be on the side of Farage/Orange marchers/people who put St George flags on their houses/people who put awful posters up about immigrants?'. When the issue in question is a binary choice, I am always puzzled by this. How can anyone be so morally unconvinced of a conclusion that they have come to that they would reverse this view because it picked up a fellow traveller who they found less than savoury?

I think it is because if those people also believe in one side of that binary choice then it is an indication for caution and question. Therefore when someone like Farage uses hate filled messages against immigrants to try to persuade people to vote Brexit, and the other advocates of Brexit do not clearly and unequivocally condemn it, it is an indicator that many people on that side secretly, if not overtly approve of the message. Therefore it is my opinion that most (tho not all) people who voted Brexit are racist to some degree or other. The real reason to vote for it is the dislike of most things foreign.

Spot on, it can be concealed or even dignified by terms like "Free trade" or "Sovereignty" but in reality you'd only vote for it if you dislike and disrespect foreigners and want to demonstrate that fact to them. I thought that was all implicit in the vote to be honest.

What I find very funny are posters like Philip Thompson who engage in the most incredible intellectual contortions about liberty and self-determination etc. but never stop to think what all the other members of the EU think, do Spaniards feel less Spanish as a result of EU membership? Do Poles worry about their personal liberty in the face of the EU (rather than their own government)?

Even those kind of thoroughly intelletual arguments - props to him for attempting to inject some reason into a debate that is basically about the view from the cave by the way - are still couched in an English exceptionalism frame of mind. As if only the British could be concerned about Sovereignty and Free Trade and all the other European countries are suffering a curious form of False Consciousness. Truly amazing.

A point well made. I have always thought, having spent quite a bit of time in France, that it would be amusing to see the reaction of a group of Frenchmen being told by a Brexit supporter that he was "not patriotic" because he is in favour of the EU!

No it isn't. It's the same patronising EU-twaddle dished out to the public for decades. 'Nothing to see here dear - you can still have your maypole dancing and warm beer and feel British dontcha know. Don't worry, we won't ban cups of tea!'.

There were profound constitutional and democratic issues with our membership of the EU. These were not imagined - they were written down in laws ffs. If other countries don't feel the same, that's fine, we're not responsible for those countries. As for 'English' exceptionalism, various other parts of Europe have been content to live under a wide variety of less than democratic systems within living memory - that isn't imagined either. So it hardly seems like a vicious calumny to suggest that 'sovereignty and free trade' do not rate quite as highly on the priority list of some citizens on the continent as they do here. God forbid we might actually have the right idea about something.

Exactly, anotherextory is essentially saying anyone who argues free trade, economic and policy flexibility, subsidiarity, or greater democratic connection is, in fact, simply hiding behind grand words to cover up their racism, and in fact that no-one could honestly have come to a pro-Brexit decision based solely on those legitimate considerations.

They are fantasy considerations.

It is your right to believe that is the case, and mine to believe otherwise. Is that the definition of a racist now - someone who believes something you don't?

It is arguably racist to hitch yourself to a movement which was avowedly anti-foreigner in a desire to see some fantasy benefits from leaving a club we decided to join and then decided to leave. This latter, of course, giving the obvious lie to any charge that we were not sovereign.

LOL. Ye stretch and twist so much as to render your words, and the term racist, meaningless. Just admit it, good people can disagree.

I will put you down as a high-falutin' Brexiter. One who bemoans daily that we couldn't lower VAT on home energy, and bewails the whole idea of Droite de Suite.

For many, many Brexiters, however, it was about foreigners. The main figurehead of your effort, Big Nige, illustrated this perfectly when he stood in front of his poster. All FAMs of dusky appearance. Not a Polish Plumber or Portugese nurse amongst them. That was racist.

Nigel was arguably the biggest influence of the whole leave campaign.

Absolutely true, not every Brexiter was a racist, but I would bet that every racist was a Brexiter.

Nige had nothing to do with any effort I supported. Nige is a racist bigot and I can't stand him.

Johnson was the main figurehead of Vote Leave and I like him.

The point surely is that it doesn't matter who the figurehead is? The figurehead for Brexit could have been a naked Alex Salmond; it still wouldn't have made me think twice about voting for something that I had decided was the right thing to do. You look at the facts, and you decide the best course of action. Everything else is just silly window-dressing.

It's an interesting view. Shall we go Godwin at this point?

It's not an interesting view, it's the only view. We don't need to imagine Hitler's side on the Brexit debate - he was after all actively attempting to unite Europe (and indeed Britain within it) for much of his career. However, since you ask, if someone as morally bankrupt as Hitler, for whatever motivations he had, supported Brexit, it wouldn't have made me vote to Remain. Any more than it would stop anyone (or many people) being vegetarian, buying a Mercedes, or having a side parting.

Remain in my sincerely held, long held, and extensively researched opinion, was the wrong choice. So it would be wrong to be bounced into that wrong choice by unsavoury people, for whatever reason, supporting the right choice. Or indeed by beautiful, wonderful, saintly, clever people supporting the wrong choice.

Well as you kindly went there...so nothing to question his moral, intellectual code then? An awful person who had a moment of clarity about something you happen to agree with. Isn't it much more likely that such a person would be just about wrong in anything they believe, especially something of import?

I mean he was a vegetarian, for god's sake.

Nobody could be wrong all the time. New information can shift my view (quite easily if the information is important). Someone siding with me or not siding with me, cannot.

FPT:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

Casino_Royale said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?

This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.

Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.

It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.

Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.

I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.

Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means

I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.

I disagree, for three reasons.

Firstly, there is the erosion of the American political system and the extension of Presidential power. Presidents get to issue Executive Orders. But historically the limits of those orders have been pretty narrow: things over which the Executive has power, as bounded by the constitution and by the laws enacted by Congress.

President Trump, as in the case of the repeal of Section 230, has essentially rode roughshod over this. He is repealing part of an Act of Congress by Presidential decree. His lawyers will have told him this is unconstitutional, and will inevitably end up being overthrown by the Supreme Court.

But that's OK. Because until the case gets there in 2021 or 2020, he's effectively changed the law. This is incredibly pernicious. It makes the votes for Congressmen and Senators even more worthless than now.

Secondly, there is his disregard for truth. Many politicians disassemble and - from time-to-time - lie. There are exceptions, honourable people like Mrs Thatcher for example (or - for that matter - Jim Callaghan).

But by and large, Politicians will say whatever they think they can get away with without directly lying. Look at Clinton. He lied over Monica Lewinski. But he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid direct lying. Indeed, his "I did not have sexual relations with that women" line was after his lawyer sent a letter to the House Judiciary Committee outlining what sexual relations was and was not. Lying? Effectively, sure. But at the same time, he did not have complete disregard for the truth.

President Trump is not like that. From his ridiculous boasting about how doctors are amazed by how much he understands, to his birtherism, he cares not one jot for the truth. He says what will minimise the trouble he is in right now.

Thirdly, there is his behaviour. The President of the United States is President of the whole United States. He is not President of who voted for him.

And he needs to accept that with that comes scrutiny. And yes, a lot of that scrutiny will come from the Left wing press.

But Obama and his Press Secretary accepted questions from Fox News. They did not accuse Fox News of treason when Fox news ran commentators who spread the birther story.

In all these ways, President Trump has made the US, in little ways, a little worse.

Luckyguy1983 said:

FPT

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

anotherex_tory said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kinabalu said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

Biden and some of the left want the 230 protection removed as well - they see it as protecting Twitter et al from the consequences of their publishing material.

The traditional media see removing the protection as levelling the playing field.

Ironically, because DT has trodden on the issue with his fat feet, everyone else has gone quiet on this.

Yes. It might be a good move but the fact that Trump is considering it purely because he himself is in a spat with Twitter rather undermines its appeal.

Well that's utterly stupid isn't it? If something is a positive development, who cares if it happens for negative reasons? It's probably the way things happen more often than not.

This is true as a general rule. But we're talking Trump here. If he is pro something that is in and of itself a strong piece of evidence in the debit column. Not to say it can't be outweighed by the credit side but it's off to a bad start and has some catching up to do.

I often hear this argument on PB. 'How can you be on the side of Farage/Orange marchers/people who put St George flags on their houses/people who put awful posters up about immigrants?'. When the issue in question is a binary choice, I am always puzzled by this. How can anyone be so morally unconvinced of a conclusion that they have come to that they would reverse this view because it picked up a fellow traveller who they found less than savoury?

I think it is because if those people also believe in one side of that binary choice then it is an indication for caution and question. Therefore when someone like Farage uses hate filled messages against immigrants to try to persuade people to vote Brexit, and the other advocates of Brexit do not clearly and unequivocally condemn it, it is an indicator that many people on that side secretly, if not overtly approve of the message. Therefore it is my opinion that most (tho not all) people who voted Brexit are racist to some degree or other. The real reason to vote for it is the dislike of most things foreign.

Spot on, it can be concealed or even dignified by terms like "Free trade" or "Sovereignty" but in reality you'd only vote for it if you dislike and disrespect foreigners and want to demonstrate that fact to them. I thought that was all implicit in the vote to be honest.

What I find very funny are posters like Philip Thompson who engage in the most incredible intellectual contortions about liberty and self-determination etc. but never stop to think what all the other members of the EU think, do Spaniards feel less Spanish as a result of EU membership? Do Poles worry about their personal liberty in the face of the EU (rather than their own government)?

Even those kind of thoroughly intelletual arguments - props to him for attempting to inject some reason into a debate that is basically about the view from the cave by the way - are still couched in an English exceptionalism frame of mind. As if only the British could be concerned about Sovereignty and Free Trade and all the other European countries are suffering a curious form of False Consciousness. Truly amazing.

A point well made. I have always thought, having spent quite a bit of time in France, that it would be amusing to see the reaction of a group of Frenchmen being told by a Brexit supporter that he was "not patriotic" because he is in favour of the EU!

No it isn't. It's the same patronising EU-twaddle dished out to the public for decades. 'Nothing to see here dear - you can still have your maypole dancing and warm beer and feel British dontcha know. Don't worry, we won't ban cups of tea!'.

There were profound constitutional and democratic issues with our membership of the EU. These were not imagined - they were written down in laws ffs. If other countries don't feel the same, that's fine, we're not responsible for those countries. As for 'English' exceptionalism, various other parts of Europe have been content to live under a wide variety of less than democratic systems within living memory - that isn't imagined either. So it hardly seems like a vicious calumny to suggest that 'sovereignty and free trade' do not rate quite as highly on the priority list of some citizens on the continent as they do here. God forbid we might actually have the right idea about something.

Exactly, anotherextory is essentially saying anyone who argues free trade, economic and policy flexibility, subsidiarity, or greater democratic connection is, in fact, simply hiding behind grand words to cover up their racism, and in fact that no-one could honestly have come to a pro-Brexit decision based solely on those legitimate considerations.

They are fantasy considerations.

It is your right to believe that is the case, and mine to believe otherwise. Is that the definition of a racist now - someone who believes something you don't?

It is arguably racist to hitch yourself to a movement which was avowedly anti-foreigner in a desire to see some fantasy benefits from leaving a club we decided to join and then decided to leave. This latter, of course, giving the obvious lie to any charge that we were not sovereign.

LOL. Ye stretch and twist so much as to render your words, and the term racist, meaningless. Just admit it, good people can disagree.

I will put you down as a high-falutin' Brexiter. One who bemoans daily that we couldn't lower VAT on home energy, and bewails the whole idea of Droite de Suite.

For many, many Brexiters, however, it was about foreigners. The main figurehead of your effort, Big Nige, illustrated this perfectly when he stood in front of his poster. All FAMs of dusky appearance. Not a Polish Plumber or Portugese nurse amongst them. That was racist.

Nigel was arguably the biggest influence of the whole leave campaign.

Absolutely true, not every Brexiter was a racist, but I would bet that every racist was a Brexiter.

Nige had nothing to do with any effort I supported. Nige is a racist bigot and I can't stand him.

Johnson was the main figurehead of Vote Leave and I like him.

The point surely is that it doesn't matter who the figurehead is? The figurehead for Brexit could have been a naked Alex Salmond; it still wouldn't have made me think twice about voting for something that I had decided was the right thing to do. You look at the facts, and you decide the best course of action. Everything else is just silly window-dressing.

It's an interesting view. Shall we go Godwin at this point?

It's not an interesting view, it's the only view. We don't need to imagine Hitler's side on the Brexit debate - he was after all actively attempting to unite Europe (and indeed Britain within it) for much of his career. However, since you ask, if someone as morally bankrupt as Hitler, for whatever motivations he had, supported Brexit, it wouldn't have made me vote to Remain. Any more than it would stop anyone (or many people) being vegetarian, buying a Mercedes, or having a side parting.

Remain in my sincerely held, long held, and extensively researched opinion, was the wrong choice. So it would be wrong to be bounced into that wrong choice by unsavoury people, for whatever reason, supporting the right choice. Or indeed by beautiful, wonderful, saintly, clever people supporting the wrong choice.

Well as you kindly went there...so nothing to question his moral, intellectual code then? An awful person who had a moment of clarity about something you happen to agree with. Isn't it much more likely that such a person would be just about wrong in anything they believe, especially something of import?

I mean he was a vegetarian, for god's sake.

Stocky said:

Re header: Mike has the post as by "fishing" whereas it should read "Stocky".

Ah - well thank you for the piece. As per my question. What are the rules of leaving care homes? Is it impractical for your mother?

No rebellion from Mundell. Amazing.

rcs1000 said:

@Fishing

You are right. The problem is that care homes are (now) risk averse. If they were to not obey government guidelines and (for whatever reason) CV-19 was to get into the home, it could rip through it, killing a quarter of the residents.

The home would get sued, and probably go out of business.

The problem is that you can't get waivers from *everyone* at the home. You might get them from 75%, but there'll always be a few that won't (or can't) sign. The legal overhang is massive.

The owners of the home have made the decision - inhumane but understandable - that government guidelines must be followed to the letter.

My strong impression, fair or not, is that government doesn't give much of a crap, so long as they can adequately manage the optics.

TOPPING said:

Stocky said:

Re header: Mike has the post as by "fishing" whereas it should read "Stocky".

Ah - well thank you for the piece. As per my question. What are the rules of leaving care homes? Is it impractical for your mother?

I presume that the resident can leave in theory, my sister and I have power of attorney (health). However, it is not possible due to my mother`s health. She is very infirm and prone to passing out - so is what they term as a "falls risk". List of medication as long as your arm as well.

Stocky said:

TOPPING said:

Stocky said:

Re header: Mike has the post as by "fishing" whereas it should read "Stocky".

Ah - well thank you for the piece. As per my question. What are the rules of leaving care homes? Is it impractical for your mother?

I presume that the resident can leave in theory, my sister and I have power of attorney (health). However, it is not possible due to my mother`s health. She is very infirm and prone to passing out - so is what they term as a "falls risk". List of medication as long as your arm as well.

Again, very sorry to hear that. Plus I suppose if you met outside there would be the possibility of you through her taking it back in to the home.

Awful I hope things change soon.

rcs1000 said:

FPT:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

Casino_Royale said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?

This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.

Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.

It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.

Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.

I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.

Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means

I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.

I disagree, for three reasons.

Firstly, there is the erosion of the American political system and the extension of Presidential power. Presidents get to issue Executive Orders. But historically the limits of those orders have been pretty narrow: things over which the Executive has power, as bounded by the constitution and by the laws enacted by Congress.

President Trump, as in the case of the repeal of Section 230, has essentially rode roughshod over this. He is repealing part of an Act of Congress by Presidential decree. His lawyers will have told him this is unconstitutional, and will inevitably end up being overthrown by the Supreme Court.

But that's OK. Because until the case gets there in 2021 or 2020, he's effectively changed the law. This is incredibly pernicious. It makes the votes for Congressmen and Senators even more worthless than now.

Secondly, there is his disregard for truth. Many politicians disassemble and - from time-to-time - lie. There are exceptions, honourable people like Mrs Thatcher for example (or - for that matter - Jim Callaghan).

But by and large, Politicians will say whatever they think they can get away with without directly lying. Look at Clinton. He lied over Monica Lewinski. But he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid direct lying. Indeed, his "I did not have sexual relations with that women" line was after his lawyer sent a letter to the House Judiciary Committee outlining what sexual relations was and was not. Lying? Effectively, sure. But at the same time, he did not have complete disregard for the truth.

President Trump is not like that. From his ridiculous boasting about how doctors are amazed by how much he understands, to his birtherism, he cares not one jot for the truth. He says what will minimise the trouble he is in right now.

Thirdly, there is his behaviour. The President of the United States is President of the whole United States. He is not President of who voted for him.

And he needs to accept that with that comes scrutiny. And yes, a lot of that scrutiny will come from the Left wing press.

But Obama and his Press Secretary accepted questions from Fox News. They did not accuse Fox News of treason when Fox news ran commentators who spread the birther story.

In all these ways, President Trump has made the US, in little ways, a little worse.

Only three ?

Beibheirli_C said:

One for the lawyers - does this count as illegal incarceration? How does it differ from a prison sentence for people who committed no crime?

@Stocky - I hope you get a positive response.

It will depend upon the individual concerned.
Some will be subject to Deprivation of Liberty orders under the Mental Health Act.
These can be challenged or reviewed, but it is a time consuming process.
https://www.scie.org.uk/mca/dols/at-a-glance#what-is

Nigelb said:

Beibheirli_C said:

One for the lawyers - does this count as illegal incarceration? How does it differ from a prison sentence for people who committed no crime?

@Stocky - I hope you get a positive response.

It will depend upon the individual concerned.
Some will be subject to Deprivation of Liberty orders under the Mental Health Act.
These can be challenged or reviewed, but it is a time consuming process.
https://www.scie.org.uk/mca/dols/at-a-glance#what-is

That`s an interesting link that you posted. It says:

"Care providers don't have to be experts about what is and is not a deprivation of liberty. They just need to know when a person might be deprived of their liberty and take action."

Back to 650 constituencies.

rcs1000 said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

Casino_Royale said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?

This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.

Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.

It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.

Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.

I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.

Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means

I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.

No he really isn't. He's totally demeaned the office of the President.

Did he invade Iraq? attempt regime change in Cuba? Iran contra? Vietnam?

Blimey if he'd done any of that you'd run out of nappies.

Hang on.

Foreign affairs is the one area where the President has broad latitude as defined by the constitution. You might love - or hate - President Trump, but you cannot deny that he or his predecessors has complete freedom to make friends with the North Koreans or whatever.

You are allowed to object to his (or Reagan or Bush or Clinton or Obama's) foreign adventures. But those are within the powers of the President.

So, I'm not sure what you are objecting to here.

I am not ojecting to anything. \my point s simply that in terms of his actions (laws passed etc) Trump isn;t really that different to any other American president.

His style is very very different, but the substance? par for the course.

rcs1000 said:

FPT:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

Casino_Royale said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?

This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.

Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.

It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.

Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.

I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.

Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means

I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.

I disagree, for three reasons.

Firstly, there is the erosion of the American political system and the extension of Presidential power. Presidents get to issue Executive Orders. But historically the limits of those orders have been pretty narrow: things over which the Executive has power, as bounded by the constitution and by the laws enacted by Congress.

President Trump, as in the case of the repeal of Section 230, has essentially rode roughshod over this. He is repealing part of an Act of Congress by Presidential decree. His lawyers will have told him this is unconstitutional, and will inevitably end up being overthrown by the Supreme Court.

But that's OK. Because until the case gets there in 2021 or 2020, he's effectively changed the law. This is incredibly pernicious. It makes the votes for Congressmen and Senators even more worthless than now.

Secondly, there is his disregard for truth. Many politicians disassemble and - from time-to-time - lie. There are exceptions, honourable people like Mrs Thatcher for example (or - for that matter - Jim Callaghan).

But by and large, Politicians will say whatever they think they can get away with without directly lying. Look at Clinton. He lied over Monica Lewinski. But he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid direct lying. Indeed, his "I did not have sexual relations with that women" line was after his lawyer sent a letter to the House Judiciary Committee outlining what sexual relations was and was not. Lying? Effectively, sure. But at the same time, he did not have complete disregard for the truth.

President Trump is not like that. From his ridiculous boasting about how doctors are amazed by how much he understands, to his birtherism, he cares not one jot for the truth. He says what will minimise the trouble he is in right now.

Thirdly, there is his behaviour. The President of the United States is President of the whole United States. He is not President of who voted for him.

And he needs to accept that with that comes scrutiny. And yes, a lot of that scrutiny will come from the Left wing press.

But Obama and his Press Secretary accepted questions from Fox News. They did not accuse Fox News of treason when Fox news ran commentators who spread the birther story.

In all these ways, President Trump has made the US, in little ways, a little worse.

Well said. Nodding all the way until the use of "little" right at the end there.

Philip_Thompson said:

The situation in care homes is absolutely tragic and I feel awful for anyone in this horrible situation.

It would not surprise me if being told they can't see their family and may never see them again will be in its own right causing "excess deaths" in care homes. An oft-remarked statistic is how often an elderly person can die within months of their husband or wife dying, they give up and die of a broken heart. Many in care homes who haven't seen their families for months must be in a similar situation.

Tragic, absolutely tragic and my heart goes out to anyone affected.

Having one of your less bad days today.

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

Pulpstar said:

No rebellion from Mundell. Amazing.

Laughing out loud at the thought.

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

Effectiveness is a word that will be horrifyingly absent in any assessment of this current government in the future

Alistair said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

Casino_Royale said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?

This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.

Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.

It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.

Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.

I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.

Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means

I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.

No he really isn't like other presidents. He has demeaned the office beyond recognition.

The thing is from the tone of your commentI I think you actually do support Trump but I don't blame you for not admitting it, few have the guts to come out and say it these days. Even Farage seems to have gone a bit quiet on the subject.

No I really don;t support Trump that much because I don;t really agree with his economic policy. Far too much debt. And he's far more ambivalent about some rather nasty regimes than I care for.

My American hero was Reagan.

Yes, Regan, famous for his parsimonious use of deficit spending.

I thought he was with the Sweeney?

Meanwhile there are several flights a day from Doha to Heathrow:

https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/1267851829540519937?s=20

RichardN – the explanation below the graphs you cite rather undermines their punch.

If you are 35, female, and fit and slim what do you think your chances of hospitalisation from CV-19 are?

kinabalu said:

rcs1000 said:

FPT:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

Casino_Royale said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?

This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.

Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.

It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.

Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.

I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.

Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means

I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.

I disagree, for three reasons.

Firstly, there is the erosion of the American political system and the extension of Presidential power. Presidents get to issue Executive Orders. But historically the limits of those orders have been pretty narrow: things over which the Executive has power, as bounded by the constitution and by the laws enacted by Congress.

President Trump, as in the case of the repeal of Section 230, has essentially rode roughshod over this. He is repealing part of an Act of Congress by Presidential decree. His lawyers will have told him this is unconstitutional, and will inevitably end up being overthrown by the Supreme Court.

But that's OK. Because until the case gets there in 2021 or 2020, he's effectively changed the law. This is incredibly pernicious. It makes the votes for Congressmen and Senators even more worthless than now.

Secondly, there is his disregard for truth. Many politicians disassemble and - from time-to-time - lie. There are exceptions, honourable people like Mrs Thatcher for example (or - for that matter - Jim Callaghan).

But by and large, Politicians will say whatever they think they can get away with without directly lying. Look at Clinton. He lied over Monica Lewinski. But he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid direct lying. Indeed, his "I did not have sexual relations with that women" line was after his lawyer sent a letter to the House Judiciary Committee outlining what sexual relations was and was not. Lying? Effectively, sure. But at the same time, he did not have complete disregard for the truth.

President Trump is not like that. From his ridiculous boasting about how doctors are amazed by how much he understands, to his birtherism, he cares not one jot for the truth. He says what will minimise the trouble he is in right now.

Thirdly, there is his behaviour. The President of the United States is President of the whole United States. He is not President of who voted for him.

And he needs to accept that with that comes scrutiny. And yes, a lot of that scrutiny will come from the Left wing press.

But Obama and his Press Secretary accepted questions from Fox News. They did not accuse Fox News of treason when Fox news ran commentators who spread the birther story.

In all these ways, President Trump has made the US, in little ways, a little worse.

Well said. Nodding all the way until the use of "little" right at the end there.

Oh girls, girls really.

I'm sorry but its almost like I'm in a political version of 'from Ladette to Lady' with Marjorie RCS in charge of the Acme school of Presidential etiquette.

all this stuff is worse than the Bay of Pigs? Worse than trying to overthrow the government of Cuba?

Worse than Iran Contra?

Worse than Watergate, bugging the headquarters of your main political opponents?

Worse than Vietnam, worse than Napalm and the deaths of countless civilians?

And what about the enormous lies the American people must have been told about all of these escapades, never mind Iraq.

Trump doesn't lie more than other presidents, its just he's rubbish at it. Why? he's not a politician. That's why he's there.

What in the hell is the point of that vote to vote through in that preposterous manner. There's still the chamber limit so it's not even about display presenteeism to show parents in schools we're "back to normal" or whatever that argument was.

CarlottaVance said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

Effectiveness is a word that will be horrifyingly absent in any assessment of this current government in the future

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1267850892402987009?s=20

JRM is a dinosaur

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

Effectiveness is a word that will be horrifyingly absent in any assessment of this current government in the future

We do not agree on much but this is just idiotic and inexcusable

I think give it another 6 to 12 months and even many of the most loyal Tories will be agreeing with me that Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings will have been one of the worst things that ever happened to the Conservative Party and the Country. You will then realise that you agree with me on many more things

CarlottaVance said:

Meanwhile there are several flights a day from Doha to Heathrow:

https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/1267851829540519937?s=20

That is not good news for international travel

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CarlottaVance said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

Effectiveness is a word that will be horrifyingly absent in any assessment of this current government in the future

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1267850892402987009?s=20

JRM is a dinosaur

Come now, sir/madam! That is an utterly outrageous and orderist [edited] slur. The dinosaurs were very successful for hundreds of millions of years - still are, in their 'bird' department.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

Effectiveness is a word that will be horrifyingly absent in any assessment of this current government in the future

We do not agree on much but this is just idiotic and inexcusable

I think give it another 6 to 12 months and even many of the most loyal Tories will be agreeing with me that Boris Johnson and Dominic Cummings will have been one of the worst things that ever happened to the Conservative Party and the Country. You will then realise that you agree with me on many more things

Only not on brexit

https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1267841541370007554?s=19

Nigel_Foremain said:

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

Effectiveness is a word that will be horrifyingly absent in any assessment of this current government in the future

The representative for the 18th century is concerned about Pascal's calculating machines never mind web conferencing.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CarlottaVance said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

Effectiveness is a word that will be horrifyingly absent in any assessment of this current government in the future

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1267850892402987009?s=20

JRM is a dinosaur

If the reaction in what has become the new PB anti-Boris monitor of British public opinion is correct (ie most liked comment under the Mail's story) then what Rees Mogg has done is a masterstroke.

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

I'm definitely in the camp of returning to the regular voting system as soon as they are able, and when things return to normal I don't see remote voting as necessary, but this coming up with a third way as the normal method is not yet suitable was just plain silly and they should have stuck with the remote method.

The number of positives is looking better. Still high, but going in the right direction.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CarlottaVance said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

Effectiveness is a word that will be horrifyingly absent in any assessment of this current government in the future

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1267850892402987009?s=20

JRM is a dinosaur

Poshosaurus vex.

Pulpstar said:

Why has the people tested disappeared, I didn;t really care that it was often under 100,000 but the lack of any number there at all is a disturbing trend.

Some double-counting between the two pillars, so they're going back to revise. Pillar 1 (hospitals) still announces people and test data daily on gov.uk somewhere.


If they wanted to pad the stats they could add all the antibody and surveillance numbers into "people" also - could add 30k that way, but have chosen to count them as zero.

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

FPT

TOPPING said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

TOPPING said:

TimT said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

anotherex_tory said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kinabalu said:

Luckyguy1983 said:

kinabalu said:

Malmesbury said:

Biden and some of the left want the 230 protection removed as well - they see it as protecting Twitter et al from the consequences of their publishing material.

The traditional media see removing the protection as levelling the playing field.

Ironically, because DT has trodden on the issue with his fat feet, everyone else has gone quiet on this.

Yes. It might be a good move but the fact that Trump is considering it purely because he himself is in a spat with Twitter rather undermines its appeal.

Well that's utterly stupid isn't it? If something is a positive development, who cares if it happens for negative reasons? It's probably the way things happen more often than not.

This is true as a general rule. But we're talking Trump here. If he is pro something that is in and of itself a strong piece of evidence in the debit column. Not to say it can't be outweighed by the credit side but it's off to a bad start and has some catching up to do.

I often hear this argument on PB. 'How can you be on the side of Farage/Orange marchers/people who put St George flags on their houses/people who put awful posters up about immigrants?'. When the issue in question is a binary choice, I am always puzzled by this. How can anyone be so morally unconvinced of a conclusion that they have come to that they would reverse this view because it picked up a fellow traveller who they found less than savoury?

I think it is because if those people also believe in one side of that binary choice then it is an indication for caution and question. Therefore when someone like Farage uses hate filled messages against immigrants to try to persuade people to vote Brexit, and the other advocates of Brexit do not clearly and unequivocally condemn it, it is an indicator that many people on that side secretly, if not overtly approve of the message. Therefore it is my opinion that most (tho not all) people who voted Brexit are racist to some degree or other. The real reason to vote for it is the dislike of most things foreign.

Spot on, it can be concealed or even dignified by terms like "Free trade" or "Sovereignty" but in reality you'd only vote for it if you dislike and disrespect foreigners and want to demonstrate that fact to them. I thought that was all implicit in the vote to be honest.

What I find very funny are posters like Philip Thompson who engage in the most incredible intellectual contortions about liberty and self-determination etc. but never stop to think what all the other members of the EU think, do Spaniards feel less Spanish as a result of EU membership? Do Poles worry about their personal liberty in the face of the EU (rather than their own government)?

Even those kind of thoroughly intelletual arguments - props to him for attempting to inject some reason into a debate that is basically about the view from the cave by the way - are still couched in an English exceptionalism frame of mind. As if only the British could be concerned about Sovereignty and Free Trade and all the other European countries are suffering a curious form of False Consciousness. Truly amazing.

A point well made. I have always thought, having spent quite a bit of time in France, that it would be amusing to see the reaction of a group of Frenchmen being told by a Brexit supporter that he was "not patriotic" because he is in favour of the EU!

No it isn't. It's the same patronising EU-twaddle dished out to the public for decades. 'Nothing to see here dear - you can still have your maypole dancing and warm beer and feel British dontcha know. Don't worry, we won't ban cups of tea!'.

There were profound constitutional and democratic issues with our membership of the EU. These were not imagined - they were written down in laws ffs. If other countries don't feel the same, that's fine, we're not responsible for those countries. As for 'English' exceptionalism, various other parts of Europe have been content to live under a wide variety of less than democratic systems within living memory - that isn't imagined either. So it hardly seems like a vicious calumny to suggest that 'sovereignty and free trade' do not rate quite as highly on the priority list of some citizens on the continent as they do here. God forbid we might actually have the right idea about something.

Exactly, anotherextory is essentially saying anyone who argues free trade, economic and policy flexibility, subsidiarity, or greater democratic connection is, in fact, simply hiding behind grand words to cover up their racism, and in fact that no-one could honestly have come to a pro-Brexit decision based solely on those legitimate considerations.

They are fantasy considerations.

It is your right to believe that is the case, and mine to believe otherwise. Is that the definition of a racist now - someone who believes something you don't?

It is arguably racist to hitch yourself to a movement which was avowedly anti-foreigner in a desire to see some fantasy benefits from leaving a club we decided to join and then decided to leave. This latter, of course, giving the obvious lie to any charge that we were not sovereign.

LOL. Ye stretch and twist so much as to render your words, and the term racist, meaningless. Just admit it, good people can disagree.

I will put you down as a high-falutin' Brexiter. One who bemoans daily that we couldn't lower VAT on home energy, and bewails the whole idea of Droite de Suite.

For many, many Brexiters, however, it was about foreigners. The main figurehead of your effort, Big Nige, illustrated this perfectly when he stood in front of his poster. All FAMs of dusky appearance. Not a Polish Plumber or Portugese nurse amongst them. That was racist.

Nigel was arguably the biggest influence of the whole leave campaign.

Absolutely true, not every Brexiter was a racist, but I would bet that every racist was a Brexiter.

Nige had nothing to do with any effort I supported. Nige is a racist bigot and I can't stand him.

Johnson was the main figurehead of Vote Leave and I like him.

The point surely is that it doesn't matter who the figurehead is? The figurehead for Brexit could have been a naked Alex Salmond; it still wouldn't have made me think twice about voting for something that I had decided was the right thing to do. You look at the facts, and you decide the best course of action. Everything else is just silly window-dressing.

It's an interesting view. Shall we go Godwin at this point?

It's not an interesting view, it's the only view. We don't need to imagine Hitler's side on the Brexit debate - he was after all actively attempting to unite Europe (and indeed Britain within it) for much of his career. However, since you ask, if someone as morally bankrupt as Hitler, for whatever motivations he had, supported Brexit, it wouldn't have made me vote to Remain. Any more than it would stop anyone (or many people) being vegetarian, buying a Mercedes, or having a side parting.

Remain in my sincerely held, long held, and extensively researched opinion, was the wrong choice. So it would be wrong to be bounced into that wrong choice by unsavoury people, for whatever reason, supporting the right choice. Or indeed by beautiful, wonderful, saintly, clever people supporting the wrong choice.

Well as you kindly went there...so nothing to question his moral, intellectual code then? An awful person who had a moment of clarity about something you happen to agree with. Isn't it much more likely that such a person would be just about wrong in anything they believe, especially something of import?

I mean he was a vegetarian, for god's sake.

Why are you so willing, Topping, to cede so much power over of what you think is right and good to those you hold to be most vile?

Pulpstar said:

Anabobazina said:

RichardN – the explanation below the graphs you cite rather undermines their punch.

If you are 35, female, and fit and slim

I'm thinking you might well be the most likely cohort to work in a care home and then have a largish real life social network outside........

For crying out loud.

I have covered this factor in multiple posts now.

I’m not going to cover it yet again.

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CarlottaVance said:

Meanwhile there are several flights a day from Doha to Heathrow:

https://twitter.com/AlexInAir/status/1267851829540519937?s=20

That is not good news for international travel

Qatar Airways is one of the few airlines still running some flights - for example Singapore Airlines will only be running 4% of their schedule in June and July (but have re-opened Changi for transit passengers). The UK has got this quarantine exactly the wrong way round - not doing it while other countries had high case loads, then introducing it as other countries case load falls.

Carnyx said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

Carnyx said:

Big_G_NorthWales said:

CarlottaVance said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

Effectiveness is a word that will be horrifyingly absent in any assessment of this current government in the future

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1267850892402987009?s=20

JRM is a dinosaur

Come now, sir/madam! That is an utterly outrageous and orderist [edited] slur. The dinosaurs were very successful for hundreds of millions of years - still are, in their 'bird' department.

No need for sir/madam as I am a 76 year old aging male but seriously in the development of creation the dinosaurs are extinct.

The woodpigeon outside coos 'hello'. But the basic sentiment re JRM is entirely laudable.

Actually we have a woodpigeon on her nest by our patio in a bush at eye level and every morning we have a chat. She is delightful and I would suggest far more likeable than the absurd JRM

kle4 said:

CarlottaVance said:

@Stocky - Commiserations, it's a very difficult situation with no easy answers. As was pointed out upthread, if a Care Home was to relax contact, then got a COVID epidemic (quite possibly through another route) then there would be hell to pay.

Meanwhile, in the House of Follies:

https://twitter.com/DrHannahWhite/status/1267843862049013760?s=20

I'm definitely in the camp of returning to the regular voting system as soon as they are able, and when things return to normal I don't see remote voting as necessary, but this coming up with a third way as the normal method is not yet suitable was just plain silly and they should have stuck with the remote method.

Given the reccess is July 21st I could understand why they might use online voting until then, however I can also see the support JRM will get from ths public.

If teachers, builders, supermarket workers and all the rest can work then MPs should too. They don't neccesarily have to be in the Chamber at the same time of course while we maintain social distancing, but I would think they shouldn't be operating now as they did in April when the country is slowly opening up. I simply don't believe MPs can be as effective if they're sat in their homes than if using their own offices in Westminster. Let's face it they aren't exactly hot desking.

If MPs are at higher risk of infection because of their working practices, perhaps they will take Covid-19 more seriously as a consequence, just as if they were driving a car with a dagger pointing from the steering wheel towards their sternum. That’s the only rationale I can think of for today’s lunacy.

contrarian said:

kinabalu said:

rcs1000 said:

FPT:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

Casino_Royale said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?

This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.

Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.

It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.

Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.

I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.

Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means

I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.

I disagree, for three reasons.

Firstly, there is the erosion of the American political system and the extension of Presidential power. Presidents get to issue Executive Orders. But historically the limits of those orders have been pretty narrow: things over which the Executive has power, as bounded by the constitution and by the laws enacted by Congress.

President Trump, as in the case of the repeal of Section 230, has essentially rode roughshod over this. He is repealing part of an Act of Congress by Presidential decree. His lawyers will have told him this is unconstitutional, and will inevitably end up being overthrown by the Supreme Court.

But that's OK. Because until the case gets there in 2021 or 2020, he's effectively changed the law. This is incredibly pernicious. It makes the votes for Congressmen and Senators even more worthless than now.

Secondly, there is his disregard for truth. Many politicians disassemble and - from time-to-time - lie. There are exceptions, honourable people like Mrs Thatcher for example (or - for that matter - Jim Callaghan).

But by and large, Politicians will say whatever they think they can get away with without directly lying. Look at Clinton. He lied over Monica Lewinski. But he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid direct lying. Indeed, his "I did not have sexual relations with that women" line was after his lawyer sent a letter to the House Judiciary Committee outlining what sexual relations was and was not. Lying? Effectively, sure. But at the same time, he did not have complete disregard for the truth.

President Trump is not like that. From his ridiculous boasting about how doctors are amazed by how much he understands, to his birtherism, he cares not one jot for the truth. He says what will minimise the trouble he is in right now.

Thirdly, there is his behaviour. The President of the United States is President of the whole United States. He is not President of who voted for him.

And he needs to accept that with that comes scrutiny. And yes, a lot of that scrutiny will come from the Left wing press.

But Obama and his Press Secretary accepted questions from Fox News. They did not accuse Fox News of treason when Fox news ran commentators who spread the birther story.

In all these ways, President Trump has made the US, in little ways, a little worse.

Well said. Nodding all the way until the use of "little" right at the end there.

Oh girls, girls really.

I'm sorry but its almost like I'm in a political version of 'from Ladette to Lady' with Marjorie RCS in charge of the Acme school of Presidential etiquette.

all this stuff is worse than the Bay of Pigs? Worse than trying to overthrow the government of Cuba?

Worse than Iran Contra?

Worse than Watergate, bugging the headquarters of your main political opponents?

Worse than Vietnam, worse than Napalm and the deaths of countless civilians?

And what about the enormous lies the American people must have been told about all of these escapades, never mind Iraq.

Trump doesn't lie more than other presidents, its just he's rubbish at it. Why? he's not a politician. That's why he's there.

Yes.

Obviously.

The President is allowed to meddle in other countries affairs.

Domestic vs Foreign.

Nigel_Foremain said:

Nigelb said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Alistair said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

Casino_Royale said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?

This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.

Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.

It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.

Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.

I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.

Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means

I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.

No he really isn't like other presidents. He has demeaned the office beyond recognition.

The thing is from the tone of your commentI I think you actually do support Trump but I don't blame you for not admitting it, few have the guts to come out and say it these days. Even Farage seems to have gone a bit quiet on the subject.

No I really don;t support Trump that much because I don;t really agree with his economic policy. Far too much debt. And he's far more ambivalent about some rather nasty regimes than I care for.

My American hero was Reagan.

Yes, Regan, famous for his parsimonious use of deficit spending.

I thought he was with the Sweeney?

No, he was Reagan's Chief of Staff.
First name Donald, strangely enough.

Ah yes, I recall now, as opposed to Jack Regan of Scotland Yard

Or all the Regans in Blue Bloods

Newham is 3rd out of 339 areas in England & Wales for excess deaths. They've had 661 deaths between 1st March and 22nd May compared to an average of 338. That's an extra 323 in 83 days, which is an extra 4 per day (rounded up).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/02/revealed-coronavirus-death-toll-across-britain-many-excess/

Pulpstar said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

https://twitter.com/DHSCgovuk/status/1267841541370007554?s=19

Why has the people tested disappeared, I didn;t really care that it was often under 100,000 but the lack of any number there at all is a disturbing trend.

Yes, it's completely ridiculous that the government have stopped reporting people tested and have never reported in people recovered.

You'd think that the government's never-ending quest to find new and interesting ways to humiliate the UK might have reached its pinnacle today with that utterly riciculous, anti-democratic vote in Pariament. But it will no doubt find new opportunities to make us look ridiculous. What an absolute shower they are.

AlastairMeeks said:

If MPs are at higher risk of infection because of their working practices, perhaps they will take Covid-19 more seriously as a consequence, just as if they were driving a car with a dagger pointing from the steering wheel towards their sternum. That’s the only rationale I can think of for today’s lunacy.

Or they will take what they are putting the rest of us through more seriously. Its their two metre rule.

Not ours.

https://twitter.com/Lloyd_Cole/status/1267829612735676423

contrarian said:

kinabalu said:

rcs1000 said:

FPT:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

contrarian said:

OllyT said:

Casino_Royale said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

OllyT said:

MaxPB said:

I'm honestly not sure how America goes back to normal from here.

If there was someone other than president dickbag in charge there would be plenty of ways to get this settled but there just seems to be no way out other than letting the riots burn out over the next couple of weeks and hoping some other racist cop doesn't step up and gun down an innocent black person.

Can anyone imagine what America is going to look like after another 4 years of Trump?

This is the first time I think Trump is losing the election. Loads of moderate voters who don't agree with the riots do agree with the protests. They can see the murder of a tax payer by a racist copper is just wrong and by not recognising that the president is throwing their votes away.

He needs to find a way to address the protesters and their real issues. Engage with them and put forwards reforms and harsh sentencing for officers who kill unarmed suspects or who's actions result in the death of suspects who are already subdued. In this instance the officer just needed to cuff the suspect, book him and then he'd be out in a few hours. Ideally th police would have enough training not to even bother this person and there would be sanctions for police who do the above.

Sadly I believe it could still go either way. I am actually quite nervous about what Trump will actually do between now and November, particularly if he remains behind in the polls and has nothing to lose.

It’s perfectly possible Trump still wins.

How the Democrats campaign will be crucial to that, as he is a daemon created as a reaction to their own overreaction.

Nobody is to blame for Trump other Trump. If Americans are stupid enough to re-elect him they deserve everything that's coming to them.

I've been to New York loads on business in the last ten years and its just New York. I went twice a year under Obama, and then under Trump. Very little difference.

Maybe a bit busier, noisier and more affluent under Trump. But essentially the same.

People's hatred of Trump clouds their judgement I think. The constitution, the courts, the judiciary and Congress constrain the president. As they are meant to.

all this talk about dictatorship is the most outrageous rubbish going. It really is the stuff of thirteen year olds. Grow up.

Who was talking about dictatorship? I certainly wasn't.

My judgement of Trump is not clouded by hatred for him it is a perfectly clear judgement based on everything he has done and said over the last 4 years. He's a moron and he proves that point on an almost daily basis. Please, go ahead and support him by all means

I neither support nor hate Donald Trump, my point is simply that he's far more like every other president out there than most think.

He's methods are very unorthodox, true, but if you look in real terms at laws passed and decisions made, its pretty much par for the course.

I disagree, for three reasons.

Firstly, there is the erosion of the American political system and the extension of Presidential power. Presidents get to issue Executive Orders. But historically the limits of those orders have been pretty narrow: things over which the Executive has power, as bounded by the constitution and by the laws enacted by Congress.

President Trump, as in the case of the repeal of Section 230, has essentially rode roughshod over this. He is repealing part of an Act of Congress by Presidential decree. His lawyers will have told him this is unconstitutional, and will inevitably end up being overthrown by the Supreme Court.

But that's OK. Because until the case gets there in 2021 or 2020, he's effectively changed the law. This is incredibly pernicious. It makes the votes for Congressmen and Senators even more worthless than now.

Secondly, there is his disregard for truth. Many politicians disassemble and - from time-to-time - lie. There are exceptions, honourable people like Mrs Thatcher for example (or - for that matter - Jim Callaghan).

But by and large, Politicians will say whatever they think they can get away with without directly lying. Look at Clinton. He lied over Monica Lewinski. But he went to extraordinary lengths to avoid direct lying. Indeed, his "I did not have sexual relations with that women" line was after his lawyer sent a letter to the House Judiciary Committee outlining what sexual relations was and was not. Lying? Effectively, sure. But at the same time, he did not have complete disregard for the truth.

President Trump is not like that. From his ridiculous boasting about how doctors are amazed by how much he understands, to his birtherism, he cares not one jot for the truth. He says what will minimise the trouble he is in right now.

Thirdly, there is his behaviour. The President of the United States is President of the whole United States. He is not President of who voted for him.

And he needs to accept that with that comes scrutiny. And yes, a lot of that scrutiny will come from the Left wing press.

But Obama and his Press Secretary accepted questions from Fox News. They did not accuse Fox News of treason when Fox news ran commentators who spread the birther story.

In all these ways, President Trump has made the US, in little ways, a little worse.

Well said. Nodding all the way until the use of "little" right at the end there.

Oh girls, girls really.

I'm sorry but its almost like I'm in a political version of 'from Ladette to Lady' with Marjorie RCS in charge of the Acme school of Presidential etiquette.

all this stuff is worse than the Bay of Pigs? Worse than trying to overthrow the government of Cuba?

Worse than Iran Contra?

Worse than Watergate, bugging the headquarters of your main political opponents?

Worse than Vietnam, worse than Napalm and the deaths of countless civilians?

And what about the enormous lies the American people must have been told about all of these escapades, never mind Iraq.

Trump doesn't lie more than other presidents, its just he's rubbish at it. Why? he's not a politician. That's why he's there.

I have to say, contrarian, you live up to your name and bring great value to this site.

On some levels, I agree with you. Trump is where he is because he is willing to name problems that other politicians won't. He is crap at solutions, and it doesn't mean he names all problems (or even names all the ones he names correctly), and he only mode is partisan division, right/wrong, win/lose. Zero nuance.

Where I part company with you, and agree with Robert, is that quite apart from the unorthodox approaches he takes in presentational terms, he is steadily eroding the institutions, conventions, and checks and balances that make/made all those responsible for those grand political disasters you mention accountable. I have to wonder just how Barr would proceed if Watergate Trump version were to happen during this election season.