Undefined discussion subject.

DougSeal said:

rcs1000 said:

ydoethur said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Anyway in reply to my comment earlier there clearly are some Leave voting conservative Conservatives on this site but it seems to be just a few.

Considering people regularly call this a conservative site there doesn't seem to be an abundance of Leave voting conservative Conservatives.

My view - for which I have no hard evidence - is that the commentators are a lot less partisan and particularly a lot less conservative than it was the start, but the reputation it had built up over the first 6/7 years still lingers.

Quite a number of reasons for that, including deaths, retirements, changes of view, bannings which tend to affect the hard right disproportionately because they get carried away fastest. But I think also the political upheaval has weakened the hold of the conservatives on their supporters, the likes of TSE and Morris Dancer (or me for that matter) while Labour were already pretty well at rock bottom so those that stayed are not going anywhere (Rochdale Pioneers being a notable exception).

I could be totally wrong, but that’s my impression.

I think we also tend to skim over the posts of those we agree with, and fixate on those we disagree with.

This results in us seeing the site as being much more "hostile" than it is.

(Of course, you also need to look not just at the number of posters, but the number of posts. @HYUFD has almost 80,000 posts, for example.)

And every one of them is sheer quality.

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Foxy said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

HYUFD said:

Alistair said:

Andy_JS said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

coach said:

Mexicanpete said:

coach said:

Is this relevant to anything? Cummings is clearly unpopular (no surprise) but I can't see it has any bearing whatsoever on the next general election.

That will be fought almost exclusively on what's left of the economy and a berk driving to a castle will be forgotten by 99% of voters

That might be true, however the focus will be on the berk driving the country.

Correct, I read that some on here think Boris won't be around for long, hard to disagree.

The next few years are going to be painful, I can't think of anybody that I would like to see in charge - do you have any suggestions?

It is to the Tory party’s shame that Hunt was always the better choice.

Not in the circumstances. Hunt was a far worse choice.

You really think Hunt would have got a better (from our perspective) deal like Boris got?

You really think Hunt would have got an 80 seat majority.

Hunt isn't bad, certainly better than May but the time was not right for Hunt. And if Hunt had been elected then you'd have been saying how bad he is.

That is where you extreme right wing (and some less extreme) fanbois of Johnson get it so wrong. So many of !

No we were led by a fucking idiot with zero leadership skills and the result was she threw away Cameron's majority.

Here we go again. Obsession with winning elections without the thought as to what to do with the winnings. TMay was quite poor, but trust me, as someone who has spent most of my adult career assessing leadership capability, she has much more leadership ability than Johnson. I would not put Johnson in executive leadership of a Parish Council! If I had to order leadership ability, by observable objective measure of all the PMs in my recollection (I can just about remember Wilson), Thatcher would clearly be top and Johnson would be in very poor last place with TMay and Brown tied on quite a few more points above him.

Every PM is the worst Prime Minister ever, when they are in office.

It's way too early to judge what Johnson is like.

That's also true for Republican presidents in the United States.

Lets check the most recent Republican Presidents

Nixon - Criminal
Reagan - Promoted criminal members of the Nixon administration, engaged in illegal central American wars
Bush Snr - Covered up Reagan's crimes
Bush Jr - Gave positions to all of dad's mates who helped with the cover up of Reagan's crimes, engaged in devastating destabilisation of the world with disastrous. murderous invasion of the middle east.
Trump - doing ok so far.

So with the exception of Trump you are spot on.

There is no such thing as an illegal war, the president has the power to deploy military force for 60 days without Congressional approval and indefinitely with it.

There may be military actions taken without UN approval but only Bush Snr in the 1990 Gulf War and Obama in Libya in 2011 of recent US presidents got that UN approval

Have you told Tony Blair there is no such thing as an illegal war? He will be relieved to hear so.

Or the Nuremburg judges?

I don't think WW2 was illegal.

I think it fair to describe the invasion of Poland as illegal...

I agree - though it was no more illegal than the invasion of Iraq by Bush and Blair in 2003. Both were more guilty of the Count1 and Count2 Nuremburg indictments than any of the Nazis put on trial - with the possible exception of Ribbentrop.

More guilty than Goering? Get a grip!

Indeed so - Goering was not in favour of the attack on Poland and was not part of any decision making that authorised it.

contrarian said:

Andrew Adonis criticising Biden's vacant response to Floyd.

Tricky for Biden, this. Very tricky.

Needs the black vote en bloc, doesn't want to scare the horses in the suburbs.

Andy_JS said:

The media keeps telling us that life is going to completely change. Meanwhile, people queue up to enter Ikea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52874615

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/TinaDaheley/status/1267539895549136899

rottenborough said:

Andy_JS said:

The media keeps telling us that life is going to completely change. Meanwhile, people queue up to enter Ikea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52874615

Utterly bonkers.

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Foxy said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

HYUFD said:

Alistair said:

Andy_JS said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

coach said:

Mexicanpete said:

coach said:

Is this relevant to anything? Cummings is clearly unpopular (no surprise) but I can't see it has any bearing whatsoever on the next general election.

That will be fought almost exclusively on what's left of the economy and a berk driving to a castle will be forgotten by 99% of voters

That might be true, however the focus will be on the berk driving the country.

Correct, I read that some on here think Boris won't be around for long, hard to disagree.

The next few years are going to be painful, I can't think of anybody that I would like to see in charge - do you have any suggestions?

It is to the Tory party’s shame that Hunt was always the better choice.

Not in the circumstances. Hunt was a far worse choice.

You really think Hunt would have got a better (from our perspective) deal like Boris got?

You really think Hunt would have got an 80 seat majority.

Hunt isn't bad, certainly better than May but the time was not right for Hunt. And if Hunt had been elected then you'd have been saying how bad he is.

That is where you extreme right wing (and some less extreme) fanbois of Johnson get it so wrong. So many of !

No we were led by a fucking idiot with zero leadership skills and the result was she threw away Cameron's majority.

Here we go again. Obsession with winning elections without the thought as to what to do with the winnings. TMay was quite poor, but trust me, as someone who has spent most of my adult career assessing leadership capability, she has much more leadership ability than Johnson. I would not put Johnson in executive leadership of a Parish Council! If I had to order leadership ability, by observable objective measure of all the PMs in my recollection (I can just about remember Wilson), Thatcher would clearly be top and Johnson would be in very poor last place with TMay and Brown tied on quite a few more points above him.

Every PM is the worst Prime Minister ever, when they are in office.

It's way too early to judge what Johnson is like.

That's also true for Republican presidents in the United States.

Lets check the most recent Republican Presidents

Nixon - Criminal
Reagan - Promoted criminal members of the Nixon administration, engaged in illegal central American wars
Bush Snr - Covered up Reagan's crimes
Bush Jr - Gave positions to all of dad's mates who helped with the cover up of Reagan's crimes, engaged in devastating destabilisation of the world with disastrous. murderous invasion of the middle east.
Trump - doing ok so far.

So with the exception of Trump you are spot on.

There is no such thing as an illegal war, the president has the power to deploy military force for 60 days without Congressional approval and indefinitely with it.

There may be military actions taken without UN approval but only Bush Snr in the 1990 Gulf War and Obama in Libya in 2011 of recent US presidents got that UN approval

Have you told Tony Blair there is no such thing as an illegal war? He will be relieved to hear so.

Or the Nuremburg judges?

I don't think WW2 was illegal.

I think it fair to describe the invasion of Poland as illegal...

I agree - though it was no more illegal than the invasion of Iraq by Bush and Blair in 2003. Both were more guilty of the Count1 and Count2 Nuremburg indictments than any of the Nazis put on trial - with the possible exception of Ribbentrop.

More guilty than Goering? Get a grip!

Indeed so - Goering was not in favour of the attack on Poland and was not part of any decision making that authorised it.

He may have done a few other naughty things in his time though.

That is undeniable but is also a separate issue. There were other Counts in respect of which his conviction was probably deserved. He was also directly involved in the Anscluss with Austria in Spring 1938.

Black_Rook said:

Andy_JS said:

The media keeps telling us that life is going to completely change. Meanwhile, people queue up to enter Ikea.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52874615

It will change when the mass unemployment really kicks off.

Anyway, I saw these reports of gigantic queues outside Ikea this morning. It's incomprehensible. Why were that many people that desperate to get into Ikea? Is MDF the new bog roll or something? The mind boggles...

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Foxy said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

HYUFD said:

Alistair said:

Andy_JS said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

coach said:

Mexicanpete said:

coach said:

Is this relevant to anything? Cummings is clearly unpopular (no surprise) but I can't see it has any bearing whatsoever on the next general election.

That will be fought almost exclusively on what's left of the economy and a berk driving to a castle will be forgotten by 99% of voters

That might be true, however the focus will be on the berk driving the country.

Correct, I read that some on here think Boris won't be around for long, hard to disagree.

The next few years are going to be painful, I can't think of anybody that I would like to see in charge - do you have any suggestions?

It is to the Tory party’s shame that Hunt was always the better choice.

Not in the circumstances. Hunt was a far worse choice.

You really think Hunt would have got a better (from our perspective) deal like Boris got?

You really think Hunt would have got an 80 seat majority.

Hunt isn't bad, certainly better than May but the time was not right for Hunt. And if Hunt had been elected then you'd have been saying how bad he is.

That is where you extreme right wing (and some less extreme) fanbois of Johnson get it so wrong. So many of !

No we were led by a fucking idiot with zero leadership skills and the result was she threw away Cameron's majority.

Here we go again. Obsession with winning elections without the thought as to what to do with the winnings. TMay was quite poor, but trust me, as someone who has spent most of my adult career assessing leadership capability, she has much more leadership ability than Johnson. I would not put Johnson in executive leadership of a Parish Council! If I had to order leadership ability, by observable objective measure of all the PMs in my recollection (I can just about remember Wilson), Thatcher would clearly be top and Johnson would be in very poor last place with TMay and Brown tied on quite a few more points above him.

Every PM is the worst Prime Minister ever, when they are in office.

It's way too early to judge what Johnson is like.

That's also true for Republican presidents in the United States.

Lets check the most recent Republican Presidents

Nixon - Criminal
Reagan - Promoted criminal members of the Nixon administration, engaged in illegal central American wars
Bush Snr - Covered up Reagan's crimes
Bush Jr - Gave positions to all of dad's mates who helped with the cover up of Reagan's crimes, engaged in devastating destabilisation of the world with disastrous. murderous invasion of the middle east.
Trump - doing ok so far.

So with the exception of Trump you are spot on.

There is no such thing as an illegal war, the president has the power to deploy military force for 60 days without Congressional approval and indefinitely with it.

There may be military actions taken without UN approval but only Bush Snr in the 1990 Gulf War and Obama in Libya in 2011 of recent US presidents got that UN approval

Have you told Tony Blair there is no such thing as an illegal war? He will be relieved to hear so.

Or the Nuremburg judges?

I don't think WW2 was illegal.

I think it fair to describe the invasion of Poland as illegal...

I agree - though it was no more illegal than the invasion of Iraq by Bush and Blair in 2003. Both were more guilty of the Count1 and Count2 Nuremburg indictments than any of the Nazis put on trial - with the possible exception of Ribbentrop.

More guilty than Goering? Get a grip!

Indeed so - Goering was not in favour of the attack on Poland and was not part of any decision making that authorised it.

He may have done a few other naughty things in his time though.

That is undeniable but is also a separate issue. There were other Counts in respect of which his conviction was probably deserved. He was also directly involved in the Anschluss with Austria in Spring 1938.

Philip_Thompson said:

contrarian said:

stodge said:

rottenborough said:

Trump calls for @TSE

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1267522468400562183

They are advocating using the armed forces against their own countrymen. That's astonishing.

I remember the outrage when Polish troops shot Solidarity strikers in 1981 - when the point comes when a Government feels it has to turn its own troops on its own people a line has been crossed.

I've only seen bits of America - the chasm between wealth and poverty is frightening. I found San Francisco intimidating with pan handlers on every corner. It's different in Vegas - the poor and the dispossessed are usually out of sight but if you look Downtown in the early morning you'll see them.

MY experience of the restaurants is this - the servers (waiters/waitresses) are often white, very polite and eager to please. If you spend $120 on dinner they'll expect a $20 tip so make sure you've done well at the tables.

Then you have the people who set the tables and clear way the plates - generally hispanic. They move fast, avoid eye contact - their place in the hierarchy is clear.

The guests in the hotels come from all over the world but the weekend visitors are more often from the culturally conservative states. One evening Mrs Stodge and I had returned from dinner and got into the lift when this man rushed in and started lighting up his cigar in the lift.

We must have looked appalled - he was not exactly confrontational but perplexed until he heard my British accent at which point he became apologetic and said he understood "you do things different over there". That's America - I don't pretend to understand it, I don't think anyone does - the Americans included.

Work took me to the offices of investment banks in Manhattan before corona. What you notice is that almost all the guys on reception, doing security, checking your id etc are black.

Once you are up in the lift and in the office, I'd kind of describe it as anything but black. White, Asian, Indian subcontinent and combinations thereof. But very few blacks.

Tip: Do not ask for a white coffee in Manhattan. I did, and twice the black person serving me seemed to think I was asking for a coffee for a white person.

They do not seem to have that expression for coffee with milk!

I wonder what they consider a flat white to be?

DougSeal said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Foxy said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

HYUFD said:

Alistair said:

Andy_JS said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

coach said:

Mexicanpete said:

coach said:

Is this relevant to anything? Cummings is clearly unpopular (no surprise) but I can't see it has any bearing whatsoever on the next general election.

That will be fought almost exclusively on what's left of the economy and a berk driving to a castle will be forgotten by 99% of voters

That might be true, however the focus will be on the berk driving the country.

Correct, I read that some on here think Boris won't be around for long, hard to disagree.

The next few years are going to be painful, I can't think of anybody that I would like to see in charge - do you have any suggestions?

It is to the Tory party’s shame that Hunt was always the better choice.

Not in the circumstances. Hunt was a far worse choice.

You really think Hunt would have got a better (from our perspective) deal like Boris got?

You really think Hunt would have got an 80 seat majority.

Hunt isn't bad, certainly better than May but the time was not right for Hunt. And if Hunt had been elected then you'd have been saying how bad he is.

That is where you extreme right wing (and some less extreme) fanbois of Johnson get it so wrong. So many of !

No we were led by a fucking idiot with zero leadership skills and the result was she threw away Cameron's majority.

Here we go again. Obsession with winning elections without the thought as to what to do with the winnings. TMay was quite poor, but trust me, as someone who has spent most of my adult career assessing leadership capability, she has much more leadership ability than Johnson. I would not put Johnson in executive leadership of a Parish Council! If I had to order leadership ability, by observable objective measure of all the PMs in my recollection (I can just about remember Wilson), Thatcher would clearly be top and Johnson would be in very poor last place with TMay and Brown tied on quite a few more points above him.

Every PM is the worst Prime Minister ever, when they are in office.

It's way too early to judge what Johnson is like.

That's also true for Republican presidents in the United States.

Lets check the most recent Republican Presidents

Nixon - Criminal
Reagan - Promoted criminal members of the Nixon administration, engaged in illegal central American wars
Bush Snr - Covered up Reagan's crimes
Bush Jr - Gave positions to all of dad's mates who helped with the cover up of Reagan's crimes, engaged in devastating destabilisation of the world with disastrous. murderous invasion of the middle east.
Trump - doing ok so far.

So with the exception of Trump you are spot on.

There is no such thing as an illegal war, the president has the power to deploy military force for 60 days without Congressional approval and indefinitely with it.

There may be military actions taken without UN approval but only Bush Snr in the 1990 Gulf War and Obama in Libya in 2011 of recent US presidents got that UN approval

Have you told Tony Blair there is no such thing as an illegal war? He will be relieved to hear so.

Or the Nuremburg judges?

I don't think WW2 was illegal.

I think it fair to describe the invasion of Poland as illegal...

I agree - though it was no more illegal than the invasion of Iraq by Bush and Blair in 2003. Both were more guilty of the Count1 and Count2 Nuremburg indictments than any of the Nazis put on trial - with the possible exception of Ribbentrop.

More guilty than Goering? Get a grip!

Indeed so - Goering was not in favour of the attack on Poland and was not part of any decision making that authorised it.

He may have done a few other naughty things in his time though.

That is undeniable but is also a separate issue. There were other Counts in respect of which his conviction was probably deserved. He was also directly involved in the Anscluss with Austria in Spring 1938.

He was found guilty of both charges 1 and 2:

Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace
Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace

Have Blair and Bush been found similarly guilty?

Well, Hitler was never technically found guilty, all we can do is debate what a court would find if a prosecution were brought. Same applies to most discussions of legal transgressions on this site.

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Foxy said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

HYUFD said:

Alistair said:

Andy_JS said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

coach said:

Mexicanpete said:

coach said:

Is this relevant to anything? Cummings is clearly unpopular (no surprise) but I can't see it has any bearing whatsoever on the next general election.

That will be fought almost exclusively on what's left of the economy and a berk driving to a castle will be forgotten by 99% of voters

That might be true, however the focus will be on the berk driving the country.

Correct, I read that some on here think Boris won't be around for long, hard to disagree.

The next few years are going to be painful, I can't think of anybody that I would like to see in charge - do you have any suggestions?

It is to the Tory party’s shame that Hunt was always the better choice.

Not in the circumstances. Hunt was a far worse choice.

You really think Hunt would have got a better (from our perspective) deal like Boris got?

You really think Hunt would have got an 80 seat majority.

Hunt isn't bad, certainly better than May but the time was not right for Hunt. And if Hunt had been elected then you'd have been saying how bad he is.

That is where you extreme right wing (and some less extreme) fanbois of Johnson get it so wrong. So many of !

No we were led by a fucking idiot with zero leadership skills and the result was she threw away Cameron's majority.

Here we go again. Obsession with winning elections without the thought as to what to do with the winnings. TMay was quite poor, but trust me, as someone who has spent most of my adult career assessing leadership capability, she has much more leadership ability than Johnson. I would not put Johnson in executive leadership of a Parish Council! If I had to order leadership ability, by observable objective measure of all the PMs in my recollection (I can just about remember Wilson), Thatcher would clearly be top and Johnson would be in very poor last place with TMay and Brown tied on quite a few more points above him.

Every PM is the worst Prime Minister ever, when they are in office.

It's way too early to judge what Johnson is like.

That's also true for Republican presidents in the United States.

Lets check the most recent Republican Presidents

Nixon - Criminal
Reagan - Promoted criminal members of the Nixon administration, engaged in illegal central American wars
Bush Snr - Covered up Reagan's crimes
Bush Jr - Gave positions to all of dad's mates who helped with the cover up of Reagan's crimes, engaged in devastating destabilisation of the world with disastrous. murderous invasion of the middle east.
Trump - doing ok so far.

So with the exception of Trump you are spot on.

There is no such thing as an illegal war, the president has the power to deploy military force for 60 days without Congressional approval and indefinitely with it.

There may be military actions taken without UN approval but only Bush Snr in the 1990 Gulf War and Obama in Libya in 2011 of recent US presidents got that UN approval

Have you told Tony Blair there is no such thing as an illegal war? He will be relieved to hear so.

Or the Nuremburg judges?

I don't think WW2 was illegal.

I think it fair to describe the invasion of Poland as illegal...

I agree - though it was no more illegal than the invasion of Iraq by Bush and Blair in 2003. Both were more guilty of the Count1 and Count2 Nuremburg indictments than any of the Nazis put on trial - with the possible exception of Ribbentrop.

More guilty than Goering? Get a grip!

Indeed so - Goering was not in favour of the attack on Poland and was not part of any decision making that authorised it.

He may have done a few other naughty things in his time though.

That is undeniable but is also a separate issue. There were other Counts in respect of which his conviction was probably deserved. He was also directly involved in the Anscluss with Austria in Spring 1938.

He was found guilty of both charges 1 and 2:

Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace
Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace

Have Blair and Bush been found similarly guilty?

Surprise ! Surprise ! - because the political will or means has not been there to bring them to trial. Hypocrisy, humbug and double standards have reigned supreme.

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

contrarian said:

stodge said:

rottenborough said:

Trump calls for @TSE

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1267522468400562183

They are advocating using the armed forces against their own countrymen. That's astonishing.

I remember the outrage when Polish troops shot Solidarity strikers in 1981 - when the point comes when a Government feels it has to turn its own troops on its own people a line has been crossed.

I've only seen bits of America - the chasm between wealth and poverty is frightening. I found San Francisco intimidating with pan handlers on every corner. It's different in Vegas - the poor and the dispossessed are usually out of sight but if you look Downtown in the early morning you'll see them.

MY experience of the restaurants is this - the servers (waiters/waitresses) are often white, very polite and eager to please. If you spend $120 on dinner they'll expect a $20 tip so make sure you've done well at the tables.

Then you have the people who set the tables and clear way the plates - generally hispanic. They move fast, avoid eye contact - their place in the hierarchy is clear.

The guests in the hotels come from all over the world but the weekend visitors are more often from the culturally conservative states. One evening Mrs Stodge and I had returned from dinner and got into the lift when this man rushed in and started lighting up his cigar in the lift.

We must have looked appalled - he was not exactly confrontational but perplexed until he heard my British accent at which point he became apologetic and said he understood "you do things different over there". That's America - I don't pretend to understand it, I don't think anyone does - the Americans included.

Work took me to the offices of investment banks in Manhattan before corona. What you notice is that almost all the guys on reception, doing security, checking your id etc are black.

Once you are up in the lift and in the office, I'd kind of describe it as anything but black. White, Asian, Indian subcontinent and combinations thereof. But very few blacks.

Tip: Do not ask for a white coffee in Manhattan. I did, and twice the black person serving me seemed to think I was asking for a coffee for a white person.

They do not seem to have that expression for coffee with milk!

I wonder what they consider a flat white to be?

Yeh I never worked that out. But on two separate occassions the person serving me did seem to be a bit affronted when I asked for a 'white Americano!'

Mortifying.

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/henrymance/status/1267540100893859845

RobD said:

DougSeal said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Foxy said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

HYUFD said:

Alistair said:

Andy_JS said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

coach said:

Mexicanpete said:

coach said:

Is this relevant to anything? Cummings is clearly unpopular (no surprise) but I can't see it has any bearing whatsoever on the next general election.

That will be fought almost exclusively on what's left of the economy and a berk driving to a castle will be forgotten by 99% of voters

That might be true, however the focus will be on the berk driving the country.

Correct, I read that some on here think Boris won't be around for long, hard to disagree.

The next few years are going to be painful, I can't think of anybody that I would like to see in charge - do you have any suggestions?

It is to the Tory party’s shame that Hunt was always the better choice.

Not in the circumstances. Hunt was a far worse choice.

You really think Hunt would have got a better (from our perspective) deal like Boris got?

You really think Hunt would have got an 80 seat majority.

Hunt isn't bad, certainly better than May but the time was not right for Hunt. And if Hunt had been elected then you'd have been saying how bad he is.

That is where you extreme right wing (and some less extreme) fanbois of Johnson get it so wrong. So many of !

No we were led by a fucking idiot with zero leadership skills and the result was she threw away Cameron's majority.

Here we go again. Obsession with winning elections without the thought as to what to do with the winnings. TMay was quite poor, but trust me, as someone who has spent most of my adult career assessing leadership capability, she has much more leadership ability than Johnson. I would not put Johnson in executive leadership of a Parish Council! If I had to order leadership ability, by observable objective measure of all the PMs in my recollection (I can just about remember Wilson), Thatcher would clearly be top and Johnson would be in very poor last place with TMay and Brown tied on quite a few more points above him.

Every PM is the worst Prime Minister ever, when they are in office.

It's way too early to judge what Johnson is like.

That's also true for Republican presidents in the United States.

Lets check the most recent Republican Presidents

Nixon - Criminal
Reagan - Promoted criminal members of the Nixon administration, engaged in illegal central American wars
Bush Snr - Covered up Reagan's crimes
Bush Jr - Gave positions to all of dad's mates who helped with the cover up of Reagan's crimes, engaged in devastating destabilisation of the world with disastrous. murderous invasion of the middle east.
Trump - doing ok so far.

So with the exception of Trump you are spot on.

There is no such thing as an illegal war, the president has the power to deploy military force for 60 days without Congressional approval and indefinitely with it.

There may be military actions taken without UN approval but only Bush Snr in the 1990 Gulf War and Obama in Libya in 2011 of recent US presidents got that UN approval

Have you told Tony Blair there is no such thing as an illegal war? He will be relieved to hear so.

Or the Nuremburg judges?

I don't think WW2 was illegal.

I think it fair to describe the invasion of Poland as illegal...

I agree - though it was no more illegal than the invasion of Iraq by Bush and Blair in 2003. Both were more guilty of the Count1 and Count2 Nuremburg indictments than any of the Nazis put on trial - with the possible exception of Ribbentrop.

More guilty than Goering? Get a grip!

Indeed so - Goering was not in favour of the attack on Poland and was not part of any decision making that authorised it.

He may have done a few other naughty things in his time though.

That is undeniable but is also a separate issue. There were other Counts in respect of which his conviction was probably deserved. He was also directly involved in the Anscluss with Austria in Spring 1938.

He was found guilty of both charges 1 and 2:

Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace
Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace

Have Blair and Bush been found similarly guilty?

Well, Hitler was never technically found guilty, all we can do is debate what a court would find if a prosecution were brought. Same applies to most discussions of legal transgressions on this site.

Do you seriously believe Blair and Bush should/would be sentenced to death for the Iraq war?

contrarian said:

stodge said:

rottenborough said:

Trump calls for @TSE

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1267522468400562183

They are advocating using the armed forces against their own countrymen. That's astonishing.

I remember the outrage when Polish troops shot Solidarity strikers in 1981 - when the point comes when a Government feels it has to turn its own troops on its own people a line has been crossed.

I've only seen bits of America - the chasm between wealth and poverty is frightening. I found San Francisco intimidating with pan handlers on every corner. It's different in Vegas - the poor and the dispossessed are usually out of sight but if you look Downtown in the early morning you'll see them.

MY experience of the restaurants is this - the servers (waiters/waitresses) are often white, very polite and eager to please. If you spend $120 on dinner they'll expect a $20 tip so make sure you've done well at the tables.

Then you have the people who set the tables and clear way the plates - generally hispanic. They move fast, avoid eye contact - their place in the hierarchy is clear.

The guests in the hotels come from all over the world but the weekend visitors are more often from the culturally conservative states. One evening Mrs Stodge and I had returned from dinner and got into the lift when this man rushed in and started lighting up his cigar in the lift.

We must have looked appalled - he was not exactly confrontational but perplexed until he heard my British accent at which point he became apologetic and said he understood "you do things different over there". That's America - I don't pretend to understand it, I don't think anyone does - the Americans included.

Work took me to the offices of investment banks in Manhattan before corona. What you notice is that almost all the guys on reception, doing security, checking your id etc are black.

Once you are up in the lift and in the office, I'd kind of describe it as anything but black. White, Asian, Indian subcontinent and combinations thereof. But very few blacks.

Tip: Do not ask for a white coffee in Manhattan. I did, and twice the black person serving me seemed to think I was asking for a coffee for a white person.

They do not seem to have that expression for coffee with milk!

SandyRentool said:

DougSeal said:

contrarian said:

Philip_Thompson said:

contrarian said:

stodge said:

rottenborough said:

Trump calls for @TSE

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1267522468400562183

They are advocating using the armed forces against their own countrymen. That's astonishing.

I remember the outrage when Polish troops shot Solidarity strikers in 1981 - when the point comes when a Government feels it has to turn its own troops on its own people a line has been crossed.

I've only seen bits of America - the chasm between wealth and poverty is frightening. I found San Francisco intimidating with pan handlers on every corner. It's different in Vegas - the poor and the dispossessed are usually out of sight but if you look Downtown in the early morning you'll see them.

MY experience of the restaurants is this - the servers (waiters/waitresses) are often white, very polite and eager to please. If you spend $120 on dinner they'll expect a $20 tip so make sure you've done well at the tables.

Then you have the people who set the tables and clear way the plates - generally hispanic. They move fast, avoid eye contact - their place in the hierarchy is clear.

The guests in the hotels come from all over the world but the weekend visitors are more often from the culturally conservative states. One evening Mrs Stodge and I had returned from dinner and got into the lift when this man rushed in and started lighting up his cigar in the lift.

We must have looked appalled - he was not exactly confrontational but perplexed until he heard my British accent at which point he became apologetic and said he understood "you do things different over there". That's America - I don't pretend to understand it, I don't think anyone does - the Americans included.

Work took me to the offices of investment banks in Manhattan before corona. What you notice is that almost all the guys on reception, doing security, checking your id etc are black.

Once you are up in the lift and in the office, I'd kind of describe it as anything but black. White, Asian, Indian subcontinent and combinations thereof. But very few blacks.

Tip: Do not ask for a white coffee in Manhattan. I did, and twice the black person serving me seemed to think I was asking for a coffee for a white person.

They do not seem to have that expression for coffee with milk!

I wonder what they consider a flat white to be?

Yeh I never worked that out. But on two separate occassions the person serving me did seem to be a bit affronted when I asked for a 'white Americano!'

Mortifying.

Flat whites arrived in the States only a couple of years ago. Caused a bit of a stir.

https://mashable.com/2015/01/07/flat-white/?europe=true

A cappuccino with the incorrect coffee to milk ratio.

It's not a different drink.

RobD said:

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Foxy said:

RobD said:

justin124 said:

Peter_the_Punter said:

HYUFD said:

Alistair said:

Andy_JS said:

Sean_F said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Nigel_Foremain said:

Philip_Thompson said:

IanB2 said:

coach said:

Mexicanpete said:

coach said:

Is this relevant to anything? Cummings is clearly unpopular (no surprise) but I can't see it has any bearing whatsoever on the next general election.

That will be fought almost exclusively on what's left of the economy and a berk driving to a castle will be forgotten by 99% of voters

That might be true, however the focus will be on the berk driving the country.

Correct, I read that some on here think Boris won't be around for long, hard to disagree.

The next few years are going to be painful, I can't think of anybody that I would like to see in charge - do you have any suggestions?

It is to the Tory party’s shame that Hunt was always the better choice.

Not in the circumstances. Hunt was a far worse choice.

You really think Hunt would have got a better (from our perspective) deal like Boris got?

You really think Hunt would have got an 80 seat majority.

Hunt isn't bad, certainly better than May but the time was not right for Hunt. And if Hunt had been elected then you'd have been saying how bad he is.

That is where you extreme right wing (and some less extreme) fanbois of Johnson get it so wrong. So many of !

No we were led by a fucking idiot with zero leadership skills and the result was she threw away Cameron's majority.

Here we go again. Obsession with winning elections without the thought as to what to do with the winnings. TMay was quite poor, but trust me, as someone who has spent most of my adult career assessing leadership capability, she has much more leadership ability than Johnson. I would not put Johnson in executive leadership of a Parish Council! If I had to order leadership ability, by observable objective measure of all the PMs in my recollection (I can just about remember Wilson), Thatcher would clearly be top and Johnson would be in very poor last place with TMay and Brown tied on quite a few more points above him.

Every PM is the worst Prime Minister ever, when they are in office.

It's way too early to judge what Johnson is like.

That's also true for Republican presidents in the United States.

Lets check the most recent Republican Presidents

Nixon - Criminal
Reagan - Promoted criminal members of the Nixon administration, engaged in illegal central American wars
Bush Snr - Covered up Reagan's crimes
Bush Jr - Gave positions to all of dad's mates who helped with the cover up of Reagan's crimes, engaged in devastating destabilisation of the world with disastrous. murderous invasion of the middle east.
Trump - doing ok so far.

So with the exception of Trump you are spot on.

There is no such thing as an illegal war, the president has the power to deploy military force for 60 days without Congressional approval and indefinitely with it.

There may be military actions taken without UN approval but only Bush Snr in the 1990 Gulf War and Obama in Libya in 2011 of recent US presidents got that UN approval

Have you told Tony Blair there is no such thing as an illegal war? He will be relieved to hear so.

Or the Nuremburg judges?

I don't think WW2 was illegal.

I think it fair to describe the invasion of Poland as illegal...

I agree - though it was no more illegal than the invasion of Iraq by Bush and Blair in 2003. Both were more guilty of the Count1 and Count2 Nuremburg indictments than any of the Nazis put on trial - with the possible exception of Ribbentrop.

More guilty than Goering? Get a grip!

Indeed so - Goering was not in favour of the attack on Poland and was not part of any decision making that authorised it.

He may have done a few other naughty things in his time though.

That is undeniable but is also a separate issue. There were other Counts in respect of which his conviction was probably deserved. He was also directly involved in the Anscluss with Austria in Spring 1938.

He was found guilty of both charges 1 and 2:

Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of a crime against peace
Planning, initiating and waging wars of aggression and other crimes against peace

Have Blair and Bush been found similarly guilty?

DougSeal said:

Scott_xP said:

https://twitter.com/GraemeDemianyk/status/1267546756595675142

Westminster bubble story. Nothing to see here.

(Did I get that right?)

stodge said:

rottenborough said:

Trump calls for @TSE

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1267522468400562183

They are advocating using the armed forces against their own countrymen. That's astonishing.

I remember the outrage when Polish troops shot Solidarity strikers in 1981 - when the point comes when a Government feels it has to turn its own troops on its own people a line has been crossed.

I've only seen bits of America - the chasm between wealth and poverty is frightening. I found San Francisco intimidating with pan handlers on every corner. It's different in Vegas - the poor and the dispossessed are usually out of sight but if you look Downtown in the early morning you'll see them.

MY experience of the restaurants is this - the servers (waiters/waitresses) are often white, very polite and eager to please. If you spend $120 on dinner they'll expect a $20 tip so make sure you've done well at the tables.

Then you have the people who set the tables and clear way the plates - generally hispanic. They move fast, avoid eye contact - their place in the hierarchy is clear.

The guests in the hotels come from all over the world but the weekend visitors are more often from the culturally conservative states. One evening Mrs Stodge and I had returned from dinner and got into the lift when this man rushed in and started lighting up his cigar in the lift.

We must have looked appalled - he was not exactly confrontational but perplexed until he heard my British accent at which point he became apologetic and said he understood "you do things different over there". That's America - I don't pretend to understand it, I don't think anyone does - the Americans included.