politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » On the betting markets it’s now a 74% chance that a general el
Comments
-
I disagree.SouthamObserver said:
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.TOPPING said:
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.Nigel_Foremain said:
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.AndyJS said:
Just ignore the referendum result.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
"That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us" is important, because the vote would have gone the other way if everybody had known.0 -
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t passAlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.JonCisBack said:
Talk me through that one again?Nigel_Foremain said:
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?Richard_Tyndall said:
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .Nigel_Foremain said:
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?0 -
On topic, I'm not sure I can happily tie my money up for that long.0
-
O/T
"The Old Vic’s gender-neutral toilets leaves women worse off
Sarah Ditum"
(£)
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2019/10/the-old-vics-gender-neutral-toilets-leaves-women-worse-off/0 -
Yes and it was argued for by both sides as meaning leaving the Single Market. Explicitly by both Leave and Remain.AlastairMeeks said:
The ballot paper has to be understood in the context of the way it was argued for. To say otherwise is as literalistic as to say that the referendum was an advisory vote.TOPPING said:
Maybe but the famous "ballot paper question" made no mention of any prospectus. It just said stay or go.AlastairMeeks said:The problem is that Brexit was sold on a false prospectus. You can’t make a false prospectus true.
If people voted go on this basis then they were either informed and understood that no deal was a real possibility and believed that that was better than staying in; or they were thick as pigshit and are genuinely surprised and distressed that we are very likely about to leave with no deal; or they paid insufficient attention to the possibility that we could leave with no deal and don't care one way or another.0 -
After Leave won, our PM agreed a deal with the EU that a majority of MPs voted against three times. That is the disgracelogical_song said:
I disagree.SouthamObserver said:
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.TOPPING said:
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.Nigel_Foremain said:
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.AndyJS said:
Just ignore the referendum result.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
"That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us" is important, because the vote would have gone the other way if everybody had known.0 -
Well said.JonCisBack said:
Talk me through that one again?Nigel_Foremain said:
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?Richard_Tyndall said:
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .Nigel_Foremain said:
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?0 -
I agree. It shames Britain.Roger said:I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
0 -
Absolutely. But Johnson's only interest is Johnson. When has he ever cared about anythin else? More puzzling are the many Tories who know how bad all this is going to get but who play along anyway.TOPPING said:
I think it is worse than that. Johnson seems as though he is needlessly going to inflict serious harm on the country.SouthamObserver said:
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.TOPPING said:
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.Nigel_Foremain said:
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.AndyJS said:
Just ignore the referendum result.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.0 -
Who has written approvingly of the Merkel poster?!Roger said:
Everyone who wrote approvingly of the Merkel poster certainly are. But some who just lined up behind Farage and his racist posters are just thick as planksrpjs said:
They are racists. ALL of them.Roger said:I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on on here are prepared to acknowledge.
It's obviously crude, offensive, and unfunny.
But the only people who are posting it are angry Remainers, thereby disseminating it around the Twitter-world, and doing exactly what Leave.EU want. Ironic.1 -
-
Germany still not denying the broad thrust of Downing St. account of the conversation I notice.williamglenn said:2 -
Maybe, maybe not.isam said:
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t passAlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.JonCisBack said:
Talk me through that one again?Nigel_Foremain said:
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?Richard_Tyndall said:
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .Nigel_Foremain said:
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.0 -
Boris begging. Oh how the mighty have fallen.GIN1138 said:
Germany still not denying the broad thrust of Downing St. account of the conversation I notice.williamglenn said:0 -
No, not ‘Maybe, Maybe not’. If the ERG had all had a last minute change of mind and voted for Mays agreement with the EU, it would not have passed.logical_song said:
Maybe, maybe not.isam said:
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t passAlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.JonCisBack said:
Talk me through that one again?Nigel_Foremain said:
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?Richard_Tyndall said:
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .Nigel_Foremain said:
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempAlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.
The likes of Heidi Allen would have looked pretty stupid saying ‘oh well I would have voted for it, but I was second guessing other MPs who I disagree with so voted against’, but that’s by the by.0 -
So there are two questions.SouthamObserver said:
Absolutely. But Johnson's only interest is Johnson. When has he ever cared about anythin else? More puzzling are the many Tories who know how bad all this is going to get but who play along anyway.TOPPING said:
I think it is worse than that. Johnson seems as though he is needlessly going to inflict serious harm on the country.SouthamObserver said:
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.TOPPING said:
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.Nigel_Foremain said:
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.AndyJS said:
Just ignore the referendum result.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
What will it take for the "We have forebodings but Boris must be given a chance to get a deal" wing to act?
If Boris no-deals, he'll be popular until it goes wrong. What does he do then?0 -
It's worse than that. Yes they're not denying the "broad thrust", but they're not even denying the particular language quoted - "we don't recognise these words" etc etc.GIN1138 said:
Germany still not denying the broad thrust of Downing St. account of the conversation I notice.williamglenn said:
One can only conclude Merkel said it, and meant it.
Meanwhile the £ is now more than a cent down on the day, and still falling.0 -
No but they were the two immediate that I had seen before. There is also a Guardian news item where he was attacked by Soubry for saying we would leave the Customs Union and Single Market.Nigel_Foremain said:
Thanks Richard. Two quotes though, I think you will agree, is hardly a deluge of material, and even then this is pretty ambiguous stuff. No one fought for Leave with an unambiguous message that we might, or even should, leave without a deal. "Norway" as a model was often discussed.
It was more people like me and Dan Hannan who confuaed the picture by claiming - as I still do - that the very best end point would be in the EEA as part of the SM. But the Norway option was comprehensively trashed as a suggsstion by both sides during the campaign.1 -
We are finally getting to the point where we realise that Brexit is undeliverable as long as Ireland remains divided. General Election and Revoke.0
-
At this point the most sensible, humble, uniting and courageous thing to do would be to put TM's deal to parliament again and all parties vote for it in huge numbers.isam said:
After Leave won, our PM agreed a deal with the EU that a majority of MPs voted against three times. That is the disgracelogical_song said:
I disagree.SouthamObserver said:
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.TOPPING said:
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.Nigel_Foremain said:
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.AndyJS said:
Just ignore the referendum result.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
"That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us" is important, because the vote would have gone the other way if everybody had known.
1 -
I sense that the EU don't want to have anything to do with Johnson. They know even better than the British what type of person they're dealing with. They are at a point where they just want him to disappear. If the UK puts up someone else they'll maybe talk again otherwise they just want him to fuck off. I've worked with the Germans many times. They are serious people. Fly by night opportunists are a breed they won't touch with a barge poleGIN1138 said:
Germany still not denying the broad thrust of Downing St. account of the conversation I notice.williamglenn said:0 -
Leave.EU have 271,000 twitter followers. It was widely seen by the Brexit xenophobes long before the Remainers got hold of it.Byronic said:
Who has written approvingly of the Merkel poster?!Roger said:
Everyone who wrote approvingly of the Merkel poster certainly are. But some who just lined up behind Farage and his racist posters are just thick as planksrpjs said:
They are racists. ALL of them.Roger said:I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on on here are prepared to acknowledge.
It's obviously crude, offensive, and unfunny.
But the only people who are posting it are angry Remainers, thereby disseminating it around the Twitter-world, and doing exactly what Leave.EU want. Ironic.0 -
I think it's unfair to tar all "Brexiteers" with behaviour and attitude of Leave.EU. After all, even Farage found Aaron Banks too unpleasant to work with long term.Roger said:I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
0 -
Merkel has made that impossible with her quotes. No MP could sign up for the WA, now, because they fear that the EU could very easily trap us in the backstop.algarkirk said:
At this point the most sensible, humble, uniting and courageous thing to do would be to put TM's deal to parliament again and all parties vote for it in huge numbers.isam said:
After Leave won, our PM agreed a deal with the EU that a majority of MPs voted against three times. That is the disgracelogical_song said:
I disagree.SouthamObserver said:
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.TOPPING said:
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.Nigel_Foremain said:
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.AndyJS said:
Just ignore the referendum result.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
"That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us" is important, because the vote would have gone the other way if everybody had known.
All trust has gone.
Something scary this way comes.0 -
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.JonCisBack said:
Talk me through that one again?Nigel_Foremain said:
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?Richard_Tyndall said:
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .Nigel_Foremain said:
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?
0 -
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/08/dominic-cummings-memo-brexit-talks-election/
"To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately'," the memo reads."
Has a sort of synchronisity to it, doesn't it? To marginalise UKIP in 2015, Dave offered the referendum.
To marginalise the Brexit Party in 2019/20 Boris is prepared to crash the country out of the EU without a deal.
From start to finish, the whole thing has been about what is likely to keep the Tories in power, never mind if the country has to go down the pan to ensure it.0 -
No it was an in principle decision, and an instruction to the government to sort out the details.AlastairMeeks said:
Then you must accept that the referendum was an advisory vote.basicbridge said:AlastairMeeks said:
The Leave campaign explicitly and angrily disavowed the idea of a no deal Brexit. The chaos and disruption that would cause has no mandate.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
What was on the ballot paper?0 -
0
-
Isn’t Cummings more interested in getting Brexit done?BudG said:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/08/dominic-cummings-memo-brexit-talks-election/
"To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately'," the memo reads."
Has a sort of synchronisity to it, doesn't it? To marginalise UKIP in 2015, Dave offered the referendum.
To marginalise the Brexit Party in 2019/20 Boris is prepared to crash the country out of the EU without a deal.
From start to finish, the whole thing has been about what is likely to keep the Tories in power, never mind if the country has to go down the pan to ensure it.0 -
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.algarkirk said:
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.JonCisBack said:
Talk me through that one again?Nigel_Foremain said:
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?Richard_Tyndall said:
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .Nigel_Foremain said:
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?0 -
For reasons I have often stated, I believe revoke to be the worst outcome.Novo said:We are finally getting to the point where we realise that Brexit is undeliverable as long as Ireland remains divided. General Election and Revoke.
In order of preference this is how I see the options
Best
Fully in with Euro Schengen etc
Out with no deal and reset our relationships
Out with a deal
Revoke
Worst
How do others position the options?
0 -
Surely it depends what "deal" you envisage?philiph said:
For reasons I have often stated, I believe revoke to be the worst outcome.Novo said:We are finally getting to the point where we realise that Brexit is undeliverable as long as Ireland remains divided. General Election and Revoke.
In order of preference this is how I see the options
Best
Fully in with Euro Schengen etc
Out with no deal and reset our relationships
Out with a deal
Revoke
Worst
How do others position the options?
(A question which could and should have been asked throughout this debacle, from day one)0 -
The third meaningful vote was lost by 58. So if the 28 Spartan pro-Brexit MPs and the 10 DUP Pro-Brexit MPs who voted against it had voted for it, then it would have passed with a majority of 18.isam said:
No, not ‘Maybe, Maybe not’. If the ERG had all had a last minute change of mind and voted for Mays agreement with the EU, it would not have passed.logical_song said:
Maybe, maybe not.isam said:
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t pass
Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.
The likes of Heidi Allen would have looked pretty stupid saying ‘oh well I would have voted for it, but I was second guessing other MPs who I disagree with so voted against’, but that’s by the by.
Pro-Brexit MPs prevented Brexit by voting against Brexit.0 -
Indeed, I am assuming a May / Johnson type dealByronic said:
Surely it depends what "deal" you envisage?philiph said:
For reasons I have often stated, I believe revoke to be the worst outcome.Novo said:We are finally getting to the point where we realise that Brexit is undeliverable as long as Ireland remains divided. General Election and Revoke.
In order of preference this is how I see the options
Best
Fully in with Euro Schengen etc
Out with no deal and reset our relationships
Out with a deal
Revoke
Worst
How do others position the options?
(A question which could and should have been asked throughout this debacle, from day one)0 -
Mine is I think undeliverable now but using your format.philiph said:
For reasons I have often stated, I believe revoke to be the worst outcome.Novo said:We are finally getting to the point where we realise that Brexit is undeliverable as long as Ireland remains divided. General Election and Revoke.
In order of preference this is how I see the options
Best
Fully in with Euro Schengen etc
Out with no deal and reset our relationships
Out with a deal
Revoke
Worst
How do others position the options?
Best
EFTA/EEA
Leave with a deal
Leave with No Deal
Revoke
Worst
0 -
Looks about right to me.OblitusSumMe said:
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.Richard_Tyndall said:
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.0 -
https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/08/owns-pizza-express-face-administration-10880696/
A major issue that the UK faces is that so much of its business is highly leveraged and owned abroad. The UK continually depends on new investment from foreigners. All it takes for them to sit ion their hands and the economy starts to fold. Note that as with Thomas Cook this business is owned by the Chinese.
Whatever the outcome of Brexit BJ's reputation is already shot internationally. The country will sit around waiting for a decent leader while it slowly bleeds jobs and wealth. Neither a general election or leaving the EU will solve anything. I guess we are in for a tough few months maybe years.
0 -
Aaron Banks does not represent Britain.Cyclefree said:
I agree. It shames Britain.Roger said:I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
There are shameful people in any country1 -
And they still don't get the point that it's the Tory party that is going down the pan.BudG said:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2019/10/08/dominic-cummings-memo-brexit-talks-election/
"To marginalise the Brexit Party, we will have to fight the election on the basis of ‘no more delays, get Brexit done immediately'," the memo reads."
Has a sort of synchronisity to it, doesn't it? To marginalise UKIP in 2015, Dave offered the referendum.
To marginalise the Brexit Party in 2019/20 Boris is prepared to crash the country out of the EU without a deal.
From start to finish, the whole thing has been about what is likely to keep the Tories in power, never mind if the country has to go down the pan to ensure it.0 -
Ben Stokes for SPOTY : LAY.1
-
To be honest, the silencing of moderation has been the biggest single tragedy. Back in early 2016 I wanted us to rejoin EFTA after we had left the EU and revitalise that organisation as a free trading counterweight to the EU. I think you pretty much agreed.Richard_Tyndall said:No but they were the two immediate that I had seen before. There is also a Guardian news item where he was attacked by Soubry for saying we would leave the Customs Union and Single Market.
It was more people like me and Dan Hannan who confuaed the picture by claiming - as I still do - that the very best end point would be in the EEA as part of the SM. But the Norway option was comprehensively trashed as a suggsstion by both sides during the campaign.
There were and have been any number of possible alternatives which "could" have been sold to the electorate as a viable compromise but the siren voices on both sides have propelled us toward more extreme outcomes.
As an example, I'm not huge on revoking A50 (I would if we immediately re-applied and started a fresh negotiation) but I see no merit in economic self-harm for a romanticised illusion of independence and "control". Leaving with No Deal will do nothing in and of itself to mitigate the factors which led to the 2016 result - the failure of Governments over 40 years to tackle the underlying societal issues which have brought us to this point means there's huge amounts of blame to throw around but we need to move past it and start looking for solutions and I'm afraid neither Johnson nor Corbyn have anything to offer in that regard.1 -
Revoke: Return to the situation that generated and propagated Eurosceptics by the 17.4 million. Do nothing to address those issues, and expect a different result. Insanity.Noo said:
Looks about right to me.OblitusSumMe said:
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.Richard_Tyndall said:
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.
Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.0 -
The vast majority of Conservative MPs voted in favourAlastairMeeks said:
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.algarkirk said:
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.JonCisBack said:
Talk me through that one again?Nigel_Foremain said:
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?Richard_Tyndall said:
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .Nigel_Foremain said:
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?0 -
>>Best<<Richard_Tyndall said:
Mine is I think undeliverable now but using your format.philiph said:
For reasons I have often stated, I believe revoke to be the worst outcome.Novo said:We are finally getting to the point where we realise that Brexit is undeliverable as long as Ireland remains divided. General Election and Revoke.
In order of preference this is how I see the options
Best
Fully in with Euro Schengen etc
Out with no deal and reset our relationships
Out with a deal
Revoke
Worst
How do others position the options?
Best
EFTA/EEA
Leave with a deal
Leave with No Deal
Revoke
Worst
Revoke
Revoke
Revoke
.
.
.
Referendum
.
Soft Brexit
.
.
May's deal
.
.
.
.
.
Nuclear annihilation
No Deal
>>Worst<<0 -
Slicking through perhaps the only live example of a remain voting Labour MP that went (More or less) along with May's Brexit plans, Caroline Flint seems to have much more heat from #FBPE people in her timeline than Brexiteers.AlastairMeeks said:
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.0 -
Not before the vast majority of Conservative Leaver MPs had lined up to trash it.Charles said:
The vast majority of Conservative MPs voted in favourAlastairMeeks said:
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.algarkirk said:
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.JonCisBack said:
Talk me through that one again?Nigel_Foremain said:
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?Richard_Tyndall said:
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .Nigel_Foremain said:
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?0 -
Re the call this morning.
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.0 -
Have just done a YouGov on my opinion of Boris Johnson, and if he can deliver Brexit.0
-
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as they are concerned then it makes, and made, continuing the pretence of talking pointless.Foxy said:
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.Philip_Thompson said:
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?nico67 said:Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.0 -
adjusted for kinder gentler politicsGardenwalker said:Re the call this morning.
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.0 -
Brexit was a stupid idea, done stupidly. It's now a corpse. We can cling to the corpse or we can bury it.philiph said:
Revoke: Return to the situation that generated and propagated Eurosceptics by the 17.4 million. Do nothing to address those issues, and expect a different result. Insanity.Noo said:
Looks about right to me.OblitusSumMe said:
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.Richard_Tyndall said:
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.
Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.0 -
Big news in Labour land - Karie Murphy, Corbyn's chief of staff, has to all intents and purposes been fired today.0
-
It's the only viable form of Brexit given the UK's red lines.kle4 said:
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as they are concerned then it makes, and made, continuing the pretence of talking pointless.Foxy said:
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.Philip_Thompson said:
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?nico67 said:Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.
0 -
Both sides benefit because no.10 gets to play tough by spinning the wording and the EU get to sigh magisterially and talk about how not playing the blame game (whilst playing it) by protesting the tone of no.10 even as the point - that talks are going nowhere - is precisely what we've heard before.Gardenwalker said:Re the call this morning.
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.
It suits both sides to get on their high horse and posture.0 -
I find a deep contradiction in the remainer position.
If they do eventually succeed in overturning the referendum result before it is implemented they must know that the UK will be an awful and uncooperative member of the EU forever on the periphery. There would be no political gain for any PM to be anything else.
And I assume their deeper wish would be for the UK to be in the centre of the project without the opt-outs, with the Euro etc etc. The only way that will ever happen is if the UK comes out without a deal and their predictions are proved correct. The UK would readily vote to rejoin in those circumstances.
Which leads me to the conclusion that remainers are actually terrified of the UK making a success of leaving, without the sky falling in as predicted and consequently never rejoining.
1 -
Possible outcomes now:
BEST
Get a fantastic deal and leave (perhaps tweaked EEA/EFTA?)
Get a shit deal and leave
2nd ref and Remain
Bubonic Plague
No Deal
Bubonic Plague and Alien Attack
Revoke
WORST0 -
Links please.AlastairMeeks said:
Not before the vast majority of Conservative Leaver MPs had lined up to trash it.Charles said:
The vast majority of Conservative MPs voted in favourAlastairMeeks said:
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.algarkirk said:
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.JonCisBack said:
Talk me through that one again?Nigel_Foremain said:
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?Richard_Tyndall said:
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .Nigel_Foremain said:
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?0 -
0
-
Just like 90% of the Republican Party.SouthamObserver said:
Absolutely. But Johnson's only interest is Johnson. When has he ever cared about anythin else? More puzzling are the many Tories who know how bad all this is going to get but who play along anyway.TOPPING said:
I think it is worse than that. Johnson seems as though he is needlessly going to inflict serious harm on the country.SouthamObserver said:
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.TOPPING said:Nigel_Foremain said:
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.AndyJS said:
Just ignore the referendum result.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.
0 -
But it is what many foreigners will see of Britain. And they also see a British PM who appears to be dancing to the tune being played by Arron Banks and Nigel Farage.Charles said:
Aaron Banks does not represent Britain.Cyclefree said:
I agree. It shames Britain.Roger said:I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
There are shameful people in any country
So, yes, it shames Britain in the same way that thuggish violent English football fans shamed English football in the 1980's.0 -
That's a sad story about Ben Stokes. His biography is so tragic, he must have terrible demons.
Aiiiii. And now it's fucking raining again.
To work. To lose myself.0 -
It's not impossible that a future government, free of the all-consuming crisis of Brexit, will do various things to solve the housing crisis, bring jobs to those areas left behind and distribute free apple pie. It might not happen, granted, but I think it's marginally more likely if we revoke then if we crash the economy with a no deal exit and still have to sort out our trading relationship with the EU.philiph said:
Revoke: Return to the situation that generated and propagated Eurosceptics by the 17.4 million. Do nothing to address those issues, and expect a different result. Insanity.Noo said:
Looks about right to me.OblitusSumMe said:
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.Richard_Tyndall said:
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.
Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.0 -
Brexit would (could still!) have worked as a 7 year exit process, probably into a EEA-type/Swiss style arrangement.
Cameron fucked it, Leave fucked it, the ERG fucked it, May really fucked it.
I wouldn’t be surprised if the above is what Johnson/Cummings have in mind, albeit needing a majority to deliver.
However our leaders keep opening the Pandora Box marked “xenophobic populism”, thereby tarnishing the whole endeavour.
I can’t be arsed supporting race-baiters and economic dunces. I’ll never figure out why some on here do.0 -
So it has something in common with revoke, which is also a stupid idea.Noo said:
Brexit was a stupid idea, done stupidly. It's now a corpse. We can cling to the corpse or we can bury it.philiph said:
Revoke: Return to the situation that generated and propagated Eurosceptics by the 17.4 million. Do nothing to address those issues, and expect a different result. Insanity.Noo said:
Looks about right to me.OblitusSumMe said:
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.Richard_Tyndall said:
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.
Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.0 -
I wasnt suggesting it was or was not a correct view. That doesn't matter in respect of if it is the only form, even if only because of our red lines which got harder when Boris became PM, then talking achieved nothing and they knew that. Why play this game?SouthamObserver said:
It's the only viable form of Brexit given the UK's red lines.kle4 said:
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as they are concerned then it makes, and made, continuing the pretence of talking pointless.Foxy said:
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.Philip_Thompson said:
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?nico67 said:Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.
Blame game, that's why. Boris and co are still worse, but the sanctimony from the EU is unwarranted.0 -
If you bury it you bury the UK as well.Noo said:
Brexit was a stupid idea, done stupidly. It's now a corpse. We can cling to the corpse or we can bury it.philiph said:
Revoke: Return to the situation that generated and propagated Eurosceptics by the 17.4 million. Do nothing to address those issues, and expect a different result. Insanity.Noo said:
Looks about right to me.OblitusSumMe said:
I wasn't being serious. There is no escape from Brexit. However, it's probably the least worst option (in the absence of a genuine national compromise). Consider the alternatives.Richard_Tyndall said:
And people accuse Leavers of being deluded. Thete is no moving on from this if we Revoke.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
REVOKE - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy.
REFERENDUM - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. And we have a bitter referendum campaign. And if Leave (in whatever way is on the ballot paper) wins we still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
DEAL - Leavers accuse Remainers of treachery, betrayal and cancelling democracy. We still have to negotiate the future trade agreement.
NO DEAL - Leavers accuse the EU of treachery, betrayal and attempting to subvert British democracy. Remainers accuse Leavers of something horrid. We suffer economic damage. We still have to agree a preliminary deal with the EU to cover reciprocal citizen's rights, financial obligations and the Irish border before we can even start to negotiate the future trade agreement.
Revoke looks like the least hassle.
Add in that as the EU develops and at times of stress it will rightly take actions to the benefit of the core Euro members providing untold new ammunition for sceptics.
Revoke really is not a good idea unless you like continued fractious half in half out relationships.0 -
This is obviously true. Remainers need us to Remain before we ever Leave. The same goes for Federalists in the EU. Their best outcome is for Britain to recant and return, without ever quitting.SunnyJim said:I find a deep contradiction in the remainer position.
If they do eventually succeed in overturning the referendum result before it is implemented they must know that the UK will be an awful and uncooperative member of the EU forever on the periphery. There would be no political gain for any PM to be anything else.
And I assume their deeper wish would be for the UK to be in the centre of the project without the opt-outs, with the Euro etc etc. The only way that will ever happen is if the UK comes out without a deal and their predictions are proved correct. The UK would readily vote to rejoin in those circumstances.
Which leads me to the conclusion that remainers are actually terrified of the UK making a success of leaving, without the sky falling in as predicted and consequently never rejoining.
Because, if we quit, there is a likelihood in the medium/long term that we will prosper. And that puts a bomb under The Project.0 -
Neither shame me - every country in the world has a collection of bampots and morons.Cyclefree said:
But it is what many foreigners will see of Britain. And they also see a British PM who appears to be dancing to the tune being played by Arron Banks and Nigel Farage.Charles said:
Aaron Banks does not represent Britain.Cyclefree said:
I agree. It shames Britain.Roger said:I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
There are shameful people in any country
So, yes, it shames Britain in the same way that thuggish violent English football fans shamed English football in the 1980's.
1 -
Enough. The Gammon Army has now forfeited its democratic right to Brexit. https://twitter.com/LeaveEUOfficial/status/1181515644954714114?s=190
-
Byronic said:
Possible outcomes now:
BEST
Get a fantastic deal and leave (perhaps tweaked EEA/EFTA?) JEZZA
Get a shit deal and leave JESTER
2nd ref and Remain JEZZA
Bubonic Plague TORY SWINSON/JESTER
No Deal TORY SWINSON/JESTER
Bubonic Plague and Alien Attack AS NO DEAL
Revoke TORY SWINSON
WORST0 -
Delete fired.SouthamObserver said:Big news in Labour land - Karie Murphy, Corbyn's chief of staff, has to all intents and purposes been fired today.
Replace with Promoted
0 -
No, we only had a third vote because the first two didn’t pass you seeOblitusSumMe said:
The third meaningful vote was lost by 58. So if the 28 Spartan pro-Brexit MPs and the 10 DUP Pro-Brexit MPs who voted against it had voted for it, then it would have passed with a majority of 18.isam said:
No, not ‘Maybe, Maybe not’. If the ERG had all had a last minute change of mind and voted for Mays agreement with the EU, it would not have passed.logical_song said:
Maybe, maybe not.isam said:
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t pass
Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.
The likes of Heidi Allen would have looked pretty stupid saying ‘oh well I would have voted for it, but I was second guessing other MPs who I disagree with so voted against’, but that’s by the by.
Pro-Brexit MPs prevented Brexit by voting against Brexit.0 -
Why bother seeking to convince people who will never be convinced? Merkel's electorate is in Germany, not the UK.Byronic said:
It's worse than that. Yes they're not denying the "broad thrust", but they're not even denying the particular language quoted - "we don't recognise these words" etc etc.GIN1138 said:
Germany still not denying the broad thrust of Downing St. account of the conversation I notice.williamglenn said:
One can only conclude Merkel said it, and meant it.
Meanwhile the £ is now more than a cent down on the day, and still falling.
0 -
They are NOT the UK's red lines. They are May's red lines.SouthamObserver said:
It's the only viable form of Brexit given the UK's red lines.kle4 said:
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as they are concerned then it makes, and made, continuing the pretence of talking pointless.Foxy said:
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.Philip_Thompson said:
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?nico67 said:Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.0 -
Mr. Dadge, that poster/tweet is pathetic.
It does not, however, represent everyone who voted to Leave. Any more than Swinson's revocation policy is what the whole Remain electorate supports.0 -
There has never been a group of so rampantly deluded people in the history of this country. A few days ago they were crawling out of their skin in delight that the EU was about to back Boris's "deal" leaving Remainers high and dry. They were whooping with delight at something they had basically convinced themselves about. It went on for a few hours. It's actually pretty fascinating to watch the mass delusion mushroom, spread, wither and rot.Gardenwalker said:Re the call this morning.
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.
Brexit will forever be a case study of speedy credulity, rank gullibility, and idiotic stridency. The bulletproof self confidence of those who keep getting it wrong over and over again is like the herald of a new kind of art entirely: an epic public show of self-gaslighting idiocy. It needs a better name than Brexit. I'll open the bidding at "Manifest Density"0 -
The defence of the MPs elected on a pledge to deliver Brexit voting three times against an agreement between our PM and the EU ‘because the nasty people weren’t voting for it’ is beyond absurd.AlastairMeeks said:
Not before the vast majority of Conservative Leaver MPs had lined up to trash it.Charles said:
The vast majority of Conservative MPs voted in favourAlastairMeeks said:
Why should Remainer MPs set themselves up to be the objects of hatred by extremist Leavers? Any deal needed the support of Leavers. But they almost universally rejected it.algarkirk said:
And a number of others who should have known better also voted against it.AlastairMeeks said:
More to the point, the EU did reach a deal. But the death cult Leavers didn’t want it.JonCisBack said:
Talk me through that one again?Nigel_Foremain said:
An interesting question for some pollster perhaps. How many people thought there was any possibility of the EU not giving us a deal?Richard_Tyndall said:
It was discussed extensively by Remain and there are plenty of interview clips of Cameron saying it wss posdible. Not that it is my preferred course but to claim it was not discussed is just wrong. .Nigel_Foremain said:
No-deal Brexit is not "honouring" the referendum result, quite the reverse. To "honour" that somewhat dubious ballot, it might be sensible to go for a very soft Brexit, but definitely not an extremist no-deal Brexit that was not even discussed as a possible outcome during the campaign.basicbridge said:
Honouring a majority vote is not a "death cult".AlastairMeeks said:
God give me the confidence of the death cultists.dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any election
The death cultists are those who would block and frustrate that vote at every turn. The polls point to the enduring damage this is now doing to trust in politicians and political institutions. THAT is a much bigger long term problem than Brexit.
The EU are way more unreasonable and intransigent than Leave voters imagined, so the obvious conclusion is we should Remain after all?
"I went to my boss and said that i wasn't happy in my job and was thinking of leaving the company. He did nothing, so i said i was definitely leaving. Then he increased my hours and cut my pay and said no way was i leaving...so obviously i'm staying after all"
WTF are you on about?0 -
They remain the current government's. Hence they are the UK's.Dadge said:
They are NOT the UK's red lines. They are May's red lines.SouthamObserver said:
It's the only viable form of Brexit given the UK's red lines.kle4 said:
Then they should have called off negotiations months ago and said no more. It's not up to them to come up with new solutions after all, and if that is the only viable form of Brexit as far as they are concerned then it makes, and made, continuing the pretence of talking pointless.Foxy said:
On the contrary, the EU are merely sticking to the WA agreed by May as the only viable form of Brexit.Philip_Thompson said:
Come off it. Do you believe Merkel said a deal with NI out of the customs union is possible?nico67 said:Unless Bozo releases a tape of the conversation then people will believe what they want to believe.
The mask has slipped and the reason it's getting such attention is everyone knows this is a true representation of what was said and is crystallising where we are. The backstop was always bad faith and with Parliament being the way it is the EU are not planning on starting to negotiate in good faith.
Fair enough if they dont want to budge. But theres no need to prolong things with maybe if your view if their position is correct.
0 -
But in most countries they are to be found on the political fringes - in the UK they are to be found in the Cabinet.TGOHF2 said:
Neither shame me - every country in the world has a collection of bampots and morons.Cyclefree said:
But it is what many foreigners will see of Britain. And they also see a British PM who appears to be dancing to the tune being played by Arron Banks and Nigel Farage.Charles said:
Aaron Banks does not represent Britain.Cyclefree said:
I agree. It shames Britain.Roger said:I've just seen the poster of Angela.There are 3,000,000 UK citizens in EU countries at the moment and I am one of them.There is a really unpleasant underbelly to many of the Brexiteers which not enough people even on here seem prepared to acknowledge.
There are shameful people in any country
So, yes, it shames Britain in the same way that thuggish violent English football fans shamed English football in the 1980's.0 -
Blame Gove.Stuartinromford said:
So there are two questions.SouthamObserver said:
Absolutely. But Johnson's only interest is Johnson. When has he ever cared about anythin else? More puzzling are the many Tories who know how bad all this is going to get but who play along anyway.TOPPING said:
I think it is worse than that. Johnson seems as though he is needlessly going to inflict serious harm on the country.SouthamObserver said:
It's impossible to argue with that. Making ourselves poorer, less free, less secure and more dependent on others is undoubtedly a way to leave the EU. That we were told this would not happen by those about to inflict it on us is neither here nor there. What does matter, though, is how the government intends to respond to this new reality. I see no signs that it has even the remotest idea.TOPPING said:
No deal is not ignoring the referendum result. It is in accordance with the instructions of the voters who asked that the UK leave the EU. Nor more nor less. Now, the morons who voted for such an outcome and the morons who tried to implement such an outcome are a separate issue but, sadly, especially for those who can least afford it and likely most want it (along with the JRM elite), leaving with no deal would be a perfectly legitimate mode of leaving the EU and it would indeed "honour" the referendum result.Nigel_Foremain said:
As the government is by attempting to go for no-deal.AndyJS said:
Just ignore the referendum result.OblitusSumMe said:
Vote Revoke and move on from Brexit!dyedwoolie said:
Brexiteers and get it done remain preferrers, get them on board and you have a thumping majority at any electionChris said:
Any attempt to portray Merkel as the villain of the piece is going to lean very heavily on total ignorance of what's gone before.AlastairMeeks said:https://twitter.com/nicholaswatt/status/1181553633676189701
So was this Jeremy Hunt or Philip Hammond?
That's not to say it won't succeed, if Brexiteers are the target audience.
What will it take for the "We have forebodings but Boris must be given a chance to get a deal" wing to act?
If Boris no-deals, he'll be popular until it goes wrong. What does he do then?
It was Gove's job for it not to go wrong.
1 -
Please DM me - I have some magic beans going cheap I think you'll be interested in.bigjohnowls said:
Delete fired.SouthamObserver said:Big news in Labour land - Karie Murphy, Corbyn's chief of staff, has to all intents and purposes been fired today.
Replace with Promoted
0 -
No. Ireland being divided isn't a problem, Parliament being divided is.Novo said:We are finally getting to the point where we realise that Brexit is undeliverable as long as Ireland remains divided. General Election and Revoke.
If Boris comes back with a thumping majority the quislings sabotaging the UKs negotiations become impotent. He can and should then say to Varadkar and von der Leyden (sp?) it is time for the EU and UK to speak as equals or where shall the customs border posts be built on the Irish border?0 -
Possible outcomes:
Revoke: democratically disastrous
Rereferend: highly divisive and a recognition of failure by the political class
Leave with a deal: discredited
Leave without a deal: highly disruptive, chaotic and highly divisive.
Pick your preferred disaster.0 -
How many Leavers does it represent? A fair few million. If we ignore their pathetic opinions, it leaves a large majority in favour of Remain.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Dadge, that poster/tweet is pathetic.
It does not, however, represent everyone who voted to Leave. Any more than Swinson's revocation policy is what the whole Remain electorate supports.0 -
0
-
Here's how the Mail covered those awards...Byronic said:That's a sad story about Ben Stokes. His biography is so tragic, he must have terrible demons.
Aiiiii. And now it's fucking raining again.
To work. To lose myself.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricket/article-7531373/Ben-Stokes-crowns-incredible-summer-PCA-Players-Player-Year-award.html
0 -
Well every work day we all just talk about BrexitRoger said:UK Productivity suffers worse drop in 5 years
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49971853
0 -
Of course it could be true that the remainers do not want the country to suffer the damage that they believe the country will suffer from Brexit and therefore while a chaotic Brexit might be best for their long term aims they think the costs of Brexit are too high to justify that long term gain. Or to put it another way, it might not be a good idea for all leavers to assume that the remainers are as unconcerned about the damage being done to the UK as they are.Byronic said:
This is obviously true. Remainers need us to Remain before we ever Leave. The same goes for Federalists in the EU. Their best outcome is for Britain to recant and return, without ever quitting.SunnyJim said:I find a deep contradiction in the remainer position.
If they do eventually succeed in overturning the referendum result before it is implemented they must know that the UK will be an awful and uncooperative member of the EU forever on the periphery. There would be no political gain for any PM to be anything else.
And I assume their deeper wish would be for the UK to be in the centre of the project without the opt-outs, with the Euro etc etc. The only way that will ever happen is if the UK comes out without a deal and their predictions are proved correct. The UK would readily vote to rejoin in those circumstances.
Which leads me to the conclusion that remainers are actually terrified of the UK making a success of leaving, without the sky falling in as predicted and consequently never rejoining.
Because, if we quit, there is a likelihood in the medium/long term that we will prosper. And that puts a bomb under The Project.0 -
In the case of that ghastly Merkel poster I would say we are seeing what happens when racists are encouraged to feel proud of their little vice rather than slightly ashamed of it.isam said:We are seeing what happens when the establishment won’t implement the result of a democratic vote.
0 -
Leave with a deal would get the whole thing over with, and the fact it is currently unfashionable would be completely forgotten very quickly if it were done.AlastairMeeks said:Possible outcomes:
Revoke: democratically disastrous
Rereferend: highly divisive and a recognition of failure by the political class
Leave with a deal: discredited
Leave without a deal: highly disruptive, chaotic and highly divisive.
Pick your preferred disaster.0 -
Where do you place the voters who fell for the vast number of GE 2017 candidates - subsequently MPs - saying they would implement Brexit? Was that rank gullibility on their part?Noo said:
There has never been a group of so rampantly deluded people in the history of this country. A few days ago they were crawling out of their skin in delight that the EU was about to back Boris's "deal" leaving Remainers high and dry. They were whooping with delight at something they had basically convinced themselves about. It went on for a few hours. It's actually pretty fascinating to watch the mass delusion mushroom, spread, wither and rot.Gardenwalker said:Re the call this morning.
Who benefits from publicising it as a reason to close down negotiations?
Would it in fact be someone we know as a habitual liar?
I don’t have a microphone down Merkel’s bra; I don’t know what happened. I do know that Brexiters will believe any old shit if it supports their bigoted worldview, though.
Brexit will forever be a case study of speedy credulity, rank gullibility, and idiotic stridency. The bulletproof self confidence of those who keep getting it wrong over and over again is like the herald of a new kind of art entirely: an epic public show of self-gaslighting idiocy. It needs a better name than Brexit. I'll open the bidding at "Manifest Density"0 -
Synthesis:antithesis said:
In the case of that ghastly Merkel poster I would say we are seeing what happens when racists are encouraged to feel proud of their little vice rather than slightly ashamed of it.thesis said:We are seeing what happens when the establishment won’t implement the result of a democratic vote.
We are seeing what happens when the establishment encourages racists to feel proud of their little vice rather than slightly ashamed of it.0 -
Javid's spending plans are no more. He's screwed.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0009696/bbc-news-at-one-08102019
(listen after about 9 mins though all of it's interesting)0 -
Is Brexit really worth the reurn of the Troubles for the next thirty years. Bombs in London, Birmingham etc.Philip_Thompson said:
No. Ireland being divided isn't a problem, Parliament being divided is.Novo said:We are finally getting to the point where we realise that Brexit is undeliverable as long as Ireland remains divided. General Election and Revoke.
If Boris comes back with a thumping majority the quislings sabotaging the UKs negotiations become impotent. He can and should then say to Varadkar and von der Leyden (sp?) it is time for the EU and UK to speak as equals or where shall the customs border posts be built on the Irish border?0 -
Isam.isam said:
No, we only had a third vote because the first two didn’t pass you seeOblitusSumMe said:
The third meaningful vote was lost by 58. So if the 28 Spartan pro-Brexit MPs and the 10 DUP Pro-Brexit MPs who voted against it had voted for it, then it would have passed with a majority of 18.isam said:
No, not ‘Maybe, Maybe not’. If the ERG had all had a last minute change of mind and voted for Mays agreement with the EU, it would not have passed.logical_song said:
Maybe, maybe not.isam said:
Even if they’d all voted for it, the Remain MPs elected on a pledge to implement the referendum result, the likes of Heidi Allen, would have made sure it didn’t pass
Still the ERG voted against Brexit - that's a fact, not speculation.
The likes of Heidi Allen would have looked pretty stupid saying ‘oh well I would have voted for it, but I was second guessing other MPs who I disagree with so voted against’, but that’s by the by.
Pro-Brexit MPs prevented Brexit by voting against Brexit.
Specialist Subject: 'the bleeding obvious'0 -
People are doubling down because the result has not been implementedkinabalu said:
In the case of that ghastly Merkel poster I would say we are seeing what happens when racists are encouraged to feel proud of their little vice rather than slightly ashamed of it.isam said:We are seeing what happens when the establishment won’t implement the result of a democratic vote.
0 -
So a handful of unobtrusive customs points would fire up the Troubles would they?logical_song said:
Is Brexit really worth the reurn of the Troubles for the next thirty years. Bombs in London, Birmingham etc.
Don't tell me, leavers don't understand the tinderbox waiting to ignite at the sight of even a single customs officer.
It is complete horlicks and just the Brexit equivalent of shroud waving.0