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SystemSystem Posts: 12,678
edited September 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » My 66/1 longshot for WH2020 now favourite for the Democratic nomination and 2nd favourite for the Presidency

While I was on holiday I was grateful that TSE Tweeted my post from January 18th 2017, two days before Trump was inaugurated, on my long-shot bet for WH2020 – Senator Kamala Harris of California.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,740
    Have you any experience of long odds tips becoming US President?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,740
    Oh was that a e pluribus unum?
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Good shout Mike. #TeamBeto here, though I have Kamala green as well.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,533
    Totally O/T - What an odd team Spurs about putting out against Inter.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,740
    Tissue_Price said:

    Good shout Mike. #TeamBeto here, though I have Kamala green as well.

    Am on the Beto train too.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,740
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    Totally O/T - What an odd team Spurs about putting out against Inter.

    This is what happens when you don't sign any players and most of your squad played until the final weekend of the world cup.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Hickenlooper is still available at 66/1 for the presidency and 40/1 for the nomination with Ladbrokes and Corals.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,052
    11.6% of people living in RoI are migrants


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/number-of-spaniards-living-in-the-state-up-by-78-census-shows-1.3633201
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    In all seriousness that would actually be well worth reading/watching.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,533
    edited September 2018
    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,052
    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    dont worry Mr Essex those will soon be your views
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,888
    I hope Harris gets the nod. After missing the Obama boat, I'm on at decent odds (albeit absolutely tiny stakes).
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,052
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    I have two friends who worked in the London economy but who lived in the W Mids. They were totally shocked at the result. I was totally shocked that they couldnt notice what was going on around them
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,148
    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    It is a bit of both, which is why the Brexiteers are struggling to reconcile the welfare state protectionists and the free trading libertarians..

    Not a pair of horses that couple well as a team to pull the coach of state, even when the coachmen stop their fisticufts.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,220
    edited September 2018
    Harris trails Biden, Warren and Sanders both nationally and in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Hickenhooper is likely to be too centrist for the Democrats who after Hillary lost to Trump in 2016 are unlikely to pick another centrist to take on Trump in 2020
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,740
    Southgate out

    https://twitter.com/Matt_Law_DT/status/1042084177770889216
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,533
    edited September 2018
    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,052
    edited September 2018
    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,888
    Mr. Meeks, perhaps.

    Xenos is the Greek, referring to being prejudiced against people/foreigners from different cities.

    [Barbaros referred to foreigners who were non-Greek, the root of barbarian].
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,148
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Southgate out

    https://twitter.com/Matt_Law_DT/status/1042084177770889216

    Bradley Dack at Blackburn is worth watching. Just the sort of creative midfielder that England need.

    One to watch, for sure,but perhaps not on a CL night.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,751
    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    I have been diverted from my work today by the personal problems of a very dear friend (marriages - pah!) so come on here for some light relief and see that it is the same old arguments interspersed with a bit of erotic spresms, whatever they may be. Have I been missing out? Or is this some sort of Baker-Street-style activity too exotic for my tender ears and eyes?

    Oh well.

    Anyway, I have spent most of the summer in a place most people don't even know exists let alone visit. It makes Stoke and Walsall seem positively metropolitan and is far nicer than both. It certainly is giving me a different perspective, though perhaps not the one you might imagine.

    At any event, I am not at all keen on pandering to xenophobia, to put it mildly. But not all change is change for the better. Change is best done slowly and with consent. And above all I think a lot of people value their country, their citizenship and their culture, feel that the nation is the best unit in which democracy can be preserved and would like their politicians to place them first when devising public policy rather than seeing people from all over the world as merely interchangeable economic units - widgets with hearts, as it were.

    And now I'd best go and do some work.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,148
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,888
    Dr. Foxy, such rhetoric helped delay proper investigation into the Rotherham scandal and similar occurrences elsewhere.

    It may comfort those who still yearn for Remain to blame racism and stupidity for losing the voter, but it won't persuade many people they were wrong.

    If the electorate are taught that voting is pointless because the political class can render their decision irrelevant, either through a departure in name only or by remaining in after the electorate decided otherwise, that will do more than anything else to help the far right.

    And we ought not forget the far left is currently squatting on the front bench of the Labour Party.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Foxy said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    It is a bit of both, which is why the Brexiteers are struggling to reconcile the welfare state protectionists and the free trading libertarians..

    Not a pair of horses that couple well as a team to pull the coach of state, even when the coachmen stop their fisticufts.
    A lovely use of metaphor Mr Foxy. My compliments
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    HYUFD said:

    Harris trails Biden, Warren and Sanders both nationally and in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Hickenhooper is likely to be too centrist for the Democrats who after Hillary lost to Trump in 2016 are unlikely to pick another centrist to take on Trump in 2020

    Yes but if we exclude Biden, Warren and Sanders as being too old or otherwise unlikely runners, and make due allowance for name recognition, Harris and Hickenlooper are back in the frame.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,690
    Hickenlooper as POTUS, Harris as VPOTUS?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    On topic: Is a former Attorney-General for California really the best candidate to win back the rust belt for the Democrats, or indeed to win key early primaries?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,148
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Yes it works for left wing demagogues too, but you are mistaken. I am not a Corbyn supporter, though neither am I a Corbyn hater.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    On topic: Is a former Attorney-General for California really the best candidate to win back the rust belt for the Democrats, or indeed to win key early primaries?

    California has been moved forward in the primary season, hasn't it?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Foxy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Yes it works for left wing demagogues too, but you are mistaken. I am not a Corbyn supporter, though neither am I a Corbyn hater.
    Pleased to hear it, but you do seem cool with the idea of him becoming PM.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    On topic: Is a former Attorney-General for California really the best candidate to win back the rust belt for the Democrats, or indeed to win key early primaries?

    California has been moved forward in the primary season, hasn't it?
    Yes, to Super Tuesday, which is a possible factor in her favour.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Corbyn is a master choreographer of the dance of division and hatred, whilst all the time kidding a certain type of audience that his dancers are kinder and gentler, when in fact they would happily kick the brains out of a granny if she dared to express doubt in the Leadership
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,148
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Harris trails Biden, Warren and Sanders both nationally and in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Hickenhooper is likely to be too centrist for the Democrats who after Hillary lost to Trump in 2016 are unlikely to pick another centrist to take on Trump in 2020

    Yes but if we exclude Biden, Warren and Sanders as being too old or otherwise unlikely runners, and make due allowance for name recognition, Harris and Hickenlooper are back in the frame.
    I agree, and all the contenders score well on that vital criteria of having at least one clearly made up name.

    Though I note Beto is a hispanic diminutive for Robert.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    Foxy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Yes it works for left wing demagogues too, but you are mistaken. I am not a Corbyn supporter, though neither am I a Corbyn hater.
    I thought we'd atleast clocked up two converts for the next election, you and GIN :(
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,740
    Foxy said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Harris trails Biden, Warren and Sanders both nationally and in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Hickenhooper is likely to be too centrist for the Democrats who after Hillary lost to Trump in 2016 are unlikely to pick another centrist to take on Trump in 2020

    Yes but if we exclude Biden, Warren and Sanders as being too old or otherwise unlikely runners, and make due allowance for name recognition, Harris and Hickenlooper are back in the frame.
    I agree, and all the contenders score well on that vital criteria of having at least one clearly made up name.

    Though I note Beto is a hispanic diminutive for Robert.
    He's Irish-Mexican-American
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,690
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Yes it works for left wing demagogues too, but you are mistaken. I am not a Corbyn supporter, though neither am I a Corbyn hater.
    Pleased to hear it, but you do seem cool with the idea of him becoming PM.
    While I’m not a Corbynite, when it comes to other likely PM's, and the policies thereof, the good Jeremy C seems a reasonable choice.

    Vince doesn’t seem likely.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
  • AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    49-49 approval rating for Trump today.

    (in Texas)

    https://poll.qu.edu/texas/release-detail?ReleaseID=2570
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    OldKingCole said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Yes it works for left wing demagogues too, but you are mistaken. I am not a Corbyn supporter, though neither am I a Corbyn hater.
    Pleased to hear it, but you do seem cool with the idea of him becoming PM.
    While I’m not a Corbynite, when it comes to other likely PM's, and the policies thereof, the good Jeremy C seems a reasonable choice.

    Vince doesn’t seem likely.
    He is a proven anti-Semite. Right-thinking people should not want our great country lead by a racist.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,081
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Harris trails Biden, Warren and Sanders both nationally and in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Hickenhooper is likely to be too centrist for the Democrats who after Hillary lost to Trump in 2016 are unlikely to pick another centrist to take on Trump in 2020

    Yes but if we exclude Biden, Warren and Sanders as being too old or otherwise unlikely runners, and make due allowance for name recognition, Harris and Hickenlooper are back in the frame.
    I think the Kavanaugh thing is reviving too many memories of Anita Hill and the Thomas confirmation, the handling of which is probably the worst blot on Biden’s record. (It now seems very likely indeed that Thomas perjured himself, and Biden’s part in excluding witnesses who would have corroborated Hill’s account is not a glorious one, as he admits.)
    There are already doubts around his age; I think this will tip the balance.
    It’s a huge shame he couldn’t have run last time.

    I don’t exclude Warren/Sanders, as I think they will come to a pact in her favour. Unless things shift dramatically, it seems likely to be Warren vs Harris, and I think Harris will get it.
    O’Rourke is a possible VP pick - a very likely one if he wins his Senate contest.

    Hickenlooper appeals to moderate conservatives (hence his boosters on here), but I think nowhere near enough to engaged Democratic primary voters.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    OldKingCole said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Yes it works for left wing demagogues too, but you are mistaken. I am not a Corbyn supporter, though neither am I a Corbyn hater.
    Pleased to hear it, but you do seem cool with the idea of him becoming PM.
    While I’m not a Corbynite, when it comes to other likely PM's, and the policies thereof, the good Jeremy C seems a reasonable choice.

    Vince doesn’t seem likely.
    He's a reasonable choice, if you don't mind anti-Semitism, hatred of the West, support for IRA murders, support for Palestinian murderers, hatred of bankers, hatred of Tories, support for Putin, support for the Iranian regime, and economic illiteracy.
  • SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    OldKingCole said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Yes it works for left wing demagogues too, but you are mistaken. I am not a Corbyn supporter, though neither am I a Corbyn hater.
    Pleased to hear it, but you do seem cool with the idea of him becoming PM.
    While I’m not a Corbynite, when it comes to other likely PM's, and the policies thereof, the good Jeremy C seems a reasonable choice.

    Vince doesn’t seem likely.
    Corbyn , A reasonable choice? You have lost your marbles. He, like McDonnell, wants to tear down everything that is remotely democratic, never mind what their stance will do to the Jews.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,888
    King Cole, I'm depressed to hear you so complacent about a Corbyn premiership given what's happening to Labour under his leadership.

    Hopefully he won't win the next election, for the sake of the economy, free speech, the Jews, freedom of the press, the nuclear deterrent, defence, and anti-terrorism efforts.

    The wreath-laying self-declared friend of Hamas is one of the few men in the Commons less worthy of the premiership than Boris.

    And, on that glum note, I must be off. And remember to beware bucolic phantasms.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,081
    Foxy said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Harris trails Biden, Warren and Sanders both nationally and in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Hickenhooper is likely to be too centrist for the Democrats who after Hillary lost to Trump in 2016 are unlikely to pick another centrist to take on Trump in 2020

    Yes but if we exclude Biden, Warren and Sanders as being too old or otherwise unlikely runners, and make due allowance for name recognition, Harris and Hickenlooper are back in the frame.
    I agree, and all the contenders score well on that vital criteria of having at least one clearly made up name...
    Weren’t all,names made up at one time or another ?
    That’s sort of their point.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,740
    Keir Starmer clashed with Corbyn on Brexit to brink of resignation.

    Shadow Brexit secretary said to have shown outrage at ‘ambush’ with customs union paper earlier this year.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/18/keir-starmer-clashed-corbyn-brexit-brink-of-resignation-customs-union
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,740
    https://twitter.com/MattCartoonist/status/1042091408511971334
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 35,690
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    OldKingCole said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Yes it works for left wing demagogues too, but you are mistaken. I am not a Corbyn supporter, though neither am I a Corbyn hater.
    Pleased to hear it, but you do seem cool with the idea of him becoming PM.
    While I’m not a Corbynite, when it comes to other likely PM's, and the policies thereof, the good Jeremy C seems a reasonable choice.

    Vince doesn’t seem likely.
    He's a reasonable choice, if you don't mind anti-Semitism, hatred of the West, support for IRA murders, support for Palestinian murderers, hatred of bankers, hatred of Tories, support for Putin, support for the Iranian regime, and economic illiteracy.
    Your post demonstrates what I think of the people at the top of the Tory Party.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    "The wreath-laying self-declared friend of Hamas is one of the few men in the Commons less worthy of the premiership than Boris". Well said Mr Dancer. It is why the country must not be given a choice of PM that is between these two dangerous idiots
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    OldKingCole said:

    Your post demonstrates what I think of the people at the top of the Tory Party.

    My post is no different from the view of all the main figures who used to be at the top (and indeed all through the middle) of the Labour Party, and very probably of the majority of current Labour MPs.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited September 2018
    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    AlastairMeeks said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.
    OK, you keep making this point, which has rightly been ignored, but I'll bite. Which Conservatives are seeking to prop up Fidesz, exactly? I don't know of a single one.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
    If you mean he is judgemental on those who are clearly motivated by xenophobia and bigoted nationalism then you have a strange distortion of the accepted meaning of the word prejudice. You are entering a kind of vortex of moral relativism where you might end up with a Nazi claiming that he needs to be protected from prejudice just because he shouts zieg heil and marches in a funny fashion.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,081
    Cyclefree said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    I have been diverted from my work today by the personal problems of a very dear friend (marriages - pah!) so come on here for some light relief and see that it is the same old arguments interspersed with a bit of erotic spresms, whatever they may be. Have I been missing out? Or is this some sort of Baker-Street-style activity too exotic for my tender ears and eyes?
    Something I think we can agree you should avoid on your morning cappuccino ?
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited September 2018
    Deleted - off out so no time for flame-throwing!
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    AlastairMeeks said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.
    True enough for some in the Conservative Party. As a party member of some years I know this to be true. There are also plenty of Conservatives who are not racist, and plenty of Labour members who are not anti-Semites. Sadly the latter group does not include the Labour Party leader
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Danny565 said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.
    OK, you keep making this point, which has rightly been ignored, but I'll bite. Which Conservatives are seeking to prop up Fidesz, exactly? I don't know of a single one.
    Corbyn "sharing a platform" with people who say bad things about Jewish people is worse than the Tories "sharing a platform" with people who are doing bad things to Jewish people? It's a view.
    Corbyn IS an anti-Semite based upon his own utterances. Whilst I don't think much of TMay there is no such evidence.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.
    OK, you keep making this point, which has rightly been ignored, but I'll bite. Which Conservatives are seeking to prop up Fidesz, exactly? I don't know of a single one.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/tory-meps-orban-hungary-britain?CMP=fb_gu

    It seems some anti-Semitism is to be condemned and some is to be condoned. I look forward to the contortions that will be used to justify the difference in approach.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,081
    Speaking of Anita Hill:
    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/18/opinion/anita-hill-brett-kavanaugh-clarence-thomas.html

    I now think it is maybe 50/50 as to whether Kavanaugh’s confirmation, which looked almost certain very recently, will proceed.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited September 2018
    AlastairMeeks said:


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/tory-meps-orban-hungary-britain?CMP=fb_gu

    It seems some anti-Semitism is to be condemned and some is to be condoned. I look forward to the contortions that will be used to justify the difference in approach.

    An article in the Guardian expression indignation at the Tories. Well that's conclusive, I guess.

    But even in that article, absurdly partisan though it is, I don't see any reference to Tories supporting Fidesz, or condoning anti-Semitism. Voting against use of a 'nuclear option' [to use the very phrase in that article] against an EU country is not the same as supporting the PM of that country, is it?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,148
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    OldKingCole said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Yes it works for left wing demagogues too, but you are mistaken. I am not a Corbyn supporter, though neither am I a Corbyn hater.
    Pleased to hear it, but you do seem cool with the idea of him becoming PM.
    While I’m not a Corbynite, when it comes to other likely PM's, and the policies thereof, the good Jeremy C seems a reasonable choice.

    Vince doesn’t seem likely.
    He's a reasonable choice, if you don't mind anti-Semitism, hatred of the West, support for IRA murders, support for Palestinian murderers, hatred of bankers, hatred of Tories, support for Putin, support for the Iranian regime, and economic illiteracy.
    Yes, but he has many fine points too :)
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    AlastairMeeks said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.
    ..oh and for the record Mr Meeks, I am a Conservative of the One Nation variety and I am extremely concerned about any Conservative politicians "propping up" questionable right wing zealots, including the current POTUS. However, the reason why we have a right to scrutinise Labour is that they have a leader who wishes to be PM and is on record saying that Jews aren't integrated into British society. I am not Jewish but I find that highly repugnant
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851


    Mr. Foxy, anti-Semites/racists don't have any fine points
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:


    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/tory-meps-orban-hungary-britain?CMP=fb_gu

    It seems some anti-Semitism is to be condemned and some is to be condoned. I look forward to the contortions that will be used to justify the difference in approach.

    An article in the Guardian expression indignation at the Tories. Well that's conclusive, I guess.

    But even in that article, absurdly partisan though it is, I don't see any reference to Tories supporting Fidesz, or condoning anti-Semitism. Voting against use of a 'nuclear option' [to use the very phrase in that article] against an EU country is not the same as supporting the PM of that country, is it?
    Do you remember Nick Timothy’s attack on Soros earlier this year?

    https://twitter.com/s8mb/status/961364053464580096?s=21
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
    If you mean he is judgemental on those who are clearly motivated by xenophobia and bigoted nationalism then you have a strange distortion of the accepted meaning of the word prejudice. You are entering a kind of vortex of moral relativism where you might end up with a Nazi claiming that he needs to be protected from prejudice just because he shouts zieg heil and marches in a funny fashion.
    I see you, like Mr Meeks, seeks to make windows into mens’ souls.

    I am with Queen Elizabeth on this one.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Nigel_Foremain said:



    Mr. Foxy, anti-Semites/racists don't have any fine points

    That's unfair, I understand Mr Corbyn makes very good jam.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.
    OK, you keep making this point, which has rightly been ignored, but I'll bite. Which Conservatives are seeking to prop up Fidesz, exactly? I don't know of a single one.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/tory-meps-orban-hungary-britain?CMP=fb_gu

    It seems some anti-Semitism is to be condemned and some is to be condoned. I look forward to the contortions that will be used to justify the difference in approach.
    I refer to my previous comment on the fact that Corbyn wishes to be PM and is an anti-Semite. I am not aware of any racist tendencies for Mrs May (one of her few, but important, redeeming features).That is why there is clear difference. I am surprised you cannot see it.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Nigel_Foremain said:

    AlastairMeeks said:


    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.

    ..oh and for the record Mr Meeks, I am a Conservative of the One Nation variety and I am extremely concerned about any Conservative politicians "propping up" questionable right wing zealots, including the current POTUS. However, the reason why we have a right to scrutinise Labour is that they have a leader who wishes to be PM and is on record saying that Jews aren't integrated into British society. I am not Jewish but I find that highly repugnant
    I'm certainly not saying that Jeremy Corbyn should not be closely scrutinised on this subject. His acts have been appalling.

    I'm also saying that Conservatives are entirely hypocritical about this subject, many of them having gleefully pandered to xenophobia themselves during the referendum campaign and many more having decided that xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay for Brexit. And now we see that the Conservatives don't actually care about anti-Semitism at all, because when it comes to concrete actions against an EU member state going down a dark path, they decided to prop it up.

    On pb, several posters live-tweeted every twist and turn of Labour's summer of anti-Semitism. They have been conspicuously silent about the acts of the Conservative MEPs.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Nigel_Foremain said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    arent you moving to one of those appalling affluent villages ?

    He'll blend right in.....
    Are you suggesting he will quickly change his views to meet the current circumstances Carlotta? You find lots of weathervanes in villages but I am sure Mr Meeks isn't one of them.
    Mr Meeks sees a lot of prejudice in others but is blind to his own.
    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.
    OK, you keep making this point, which has rightly been ignored, but I'll bite. Which Conservatives are seeking to prop up Fidesz, exactly? I don't know of a single one.
    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/13/tory-meps-orban-hungary-britain?CMP=fb_gu

    It seems some anti-Semitism is to be condemned and some is to be condoned. I look forward to the contortions that will be used to justify the difference in approach.
    I am surprised you cannot see it.
    Prejudice?
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,148
    Nigel_Foremain said:



    Mr. Foxy, anti-Semites/racists don't have any fine points

    I am much more of a nuanced interpreter of folk than that. All have their predjudices, and often these reflect their up bringings. We all have an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other. All can turn to the light and none of us are immune to temptation.

    So anti-semites and racists may well have fine points, and fine people may well have a dark side. Such is humanity.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    AlastairMeeks said:


    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.

    ..oh and for the record Mr Meeks, I am a Conservative of the One Nation variety and I am extremely concerned about any Conservative politicians "propping up" questionable right wing zealots, including the current POTUS. However, the reason why we have a right to scrutinise Labour is that they have a leader who wishes to be PM and is on record saying that Jews aren't integrated into British society. I am not Jewish but I find that highly repugnant
    I'm certainly not saying that Jeremy Corbyn should not be closely scrutinised on this subject. His acts have been appalling.

    I'm also saying that Conservatives are entirely hypocritical about this subject, many of them having gleefully pandered to xenophobia themselves during the referendum campaign and many more having decided that xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay for Brexit. And now we see that the Conservatives don't actually care about anti-Semitism at all, because when it comes to concrete actions against an EU member state going down a dark path, they decided to prop it up.

    On pb, several posters live-tweeted every twist and turn of Labour's summer of anti-Semitism. They have been conspicuously silent about the acts of the Conservative MEPs.
    Perhaps they have been silent because there haven't been any anti-Semitic tweets or comments by Conservative MEPs? Just a thought.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    Nigel_Foremain said:

    OldKingCole said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Foxy said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    As it was a national referendum, all votes counted equally and places like Stoke and Walsall voted heavily to leave. The point is as well that a lot of the reasons aren't resolved by Brexit-ing or not. It is also why we see Trump, Corbyn, 5* etc.

    To simple keep pointing to your favourite hobby horse misses the point that there is a significant proportion of the population whose concerns have not been addressed for a long long time.
    The two are not unrelated. Blaming the peoples woes on foreigners and a disconnected metropolitan elite is a formula of success for wannabe demagogues whether in 1930s Germany, 1980s Iran, noughties Zimbabwe or post GFC Britain. It is a well worn tune, but still one to get people up and dancing.
    It certainly seems to work with you, when Corbyn does it.
    Yes it works for left wing demagogues too, but you are mistaken. I am not a Corbyn supporter, though neither am I a Corbyn hater.
    Pleased to hear it, but you do seem cool with the idea of him becoming PM.
    While I’m not a Corbynite, when it comes to other likely PM's, and the policies thereof, the good Jeremy C seems a reasonable choice.

    Vince doesn’t seem likely.
    He is a proven anti-Semite. Right-thinking people should not want our great country lead by a racist.
    Remember when Cameron claimed that some random Muslim guy photographed with Khan was an ISIS supporter? Somehow nobody thinks that blatant racism disqualified him from being PM
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    AlastairMeeks said:


    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.

    ..oh and for the record Mr Meeks, I am a Conservative of the One Nation variety and I am extremely concerned about any Conservative politicians "propping up" questionable right wing zealots, including the current POTUS. However, the reason why we have a right to scrutinise Labour is that they have a leader who wishes to be PM and is on record saying that Jews aren't integrated into British society. I am not Jewish but I find that highly repugnant
    I'm certainly not saying that Jeremy Corbyn should not be closely scrutinised on this subject. His acts have been appalling.

    I'm also saying that Conservatives are entirely hypocritical about this subject, many of them having gleefully pandered to xenophobia themselves during the referendum campaign and many more having decided that xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay for Brexit. And now we see that the Conservatives don't actually care about anti-Semitism at all, because when it comes to concrete actions against an EU member state going down a dark path, they decided to prop it up.

    On pb, several posters live-tweeted every twist and turn of Labour's summer of anti-Semitism. They have been conspicuously silent about the acts of the Conservative MEPs.
    Perhaps they have been silent because there haven't been any anti-Semitic tweets or comments by Conservative MEPs? Just a thought.
    No, just active support of a dangerous government.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,851
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:



    Mr. Foxy, anti-Semites/racists don't have any fine points

    That's unfair, I understand Mr Corbyn makes very good jam.
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    AlastairMeeks said:


    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.

    ..oh and for the record Mr Meeks, I am a Conservative of the One Nation variety and I am extremely concerned about any Conservative politicians "propping up" questionable right wing zealots, including the current POTUS. However, the reason why we have a right to scrutinise Labour is that they have a leader who wishes to be PM and is on record saying that Jews aren't integrated into British society. I am not Jewish but I find that highly repugnant
    I'm certainly not saying that Jeremy Corbyn should not be closely scrutinised on this subject. His acts have been appalling.

    I'm also saying that Conservatives are entirely hypocritical about this subject, many of them having gleefully pandered to xenophobia themselves during the referendum campaign and many more having decided that xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay for Brexit. And now we see that the Conservatives don't actually care about anti-Semitism at all, because when it comes to concrete actions against an EU member state going down a dark path, they decided to prop it up.

    On pb, several posters live-tweeted every twist and turn of Labour's summer of anti-Semitism. They have been conspicuously silent about the acts of the Conservative MEPs.
    Fair comment, and such behaviour is very reprehensible, but it is not in any way the same as a party presenting a candidate for PM that is a proven racist, and then pretending that he is not. It is just so beyond the pale that it is staggering that it should happen in the UK
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited September 2018
    AlastairMeeks said:


    No, just active support of a dangerous government.

    What's this 'active support' of which you speak? Been out there helping his campaigning and appearing on Hungarian TV saying how great he is?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:


    No, just active support of a dangerous government.

    What's this 'active support' of which you speak? Been out there helping his campaigning and appearing on Hungarian TV saying how great he is?
    When the EU looks to take action to curb it, seeking to stop it from doing so.

    Another day in Hungary, another day when freedoms are being curtailed:

    https://twitter.com/alexandreafonso/status/1042043702783496192
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    If you looked at those who have won upset victories in Dem Primaries they have been people who have built a coalition of ethnic minorities and white left wing "progressives"(who would have supported Bernie over Hillary).

    In that case sell White men, and buy black or Hispanic candidates who speak the language of the left rather then the Hillary type moderates.

    A long shot would be someone like Andrew Gillum if he wins in Florida, who built a coalition of African Americans and young college voters on campus. I believe he has a better chance then Beto to 1) Actually win his race this 2018 2) build a broad coalition which is needed in a Dem primary.
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    nunuone said:

    If you looked at those who have won upset victories in Dem Primaries they have been people who have built a coalition of ethnic minorities and white left wing "progressives"(who would have supported Bernie over Hillary).

    In that case sell White men, and buy black or Hispanic candidates who speak the language of the left rather then the Hillary type moderates.

    A long shot would be someone like Andrew Gillum if he wins in Florida, who built a coalition of African Americans and young college voters on campus. I believe he has a better chance then Beto to 1) Actually win his race this 2018 2) build a broad coalition which is needed in a Dem primary.

    case in point. https://twitter.com/thehill/status/1042103737911791616
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:


    No, just active support of a dangerous government.

    What's this 'active support' of which you speak? Been out there helping his campaigning and appearing on Hungarian TV saying how great he is?
    When the EU looks to take action to curb it, seeking to stop it from doing so.

    Another day in Hungary, another day when freedoms are being curtailed:
    Some of the Orbanite paranoia sounds indistinguishable from the more extreme Brexiteers.

    http://rmx.news/content/germanization-europe

    Merkel can only escape her uncomfortable domestic position by launching a sweeping occupation of Europe. In order to do so, she must eliminate Viktor Orbán and make it abundantly clear that she is the sole master of Europe.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,220
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    HYUFD said:

    Harris trails Biden, Warren and Sanders both nationally and in Iowa and New Hampshire.

    Hickenhooper is likely to be too centrist for the Democrats who after Hillary lost to Trump in 2016 are unlikely to pick another centrist to take on Trump in 2020

    Yes but if we exclude Biden, Warren and Sanders as being too old or otherwise unlikely runners, and make due allowance for name recognition, Harris and Hickenlooper are back in the frame.
    Biden and Sanders have indicated they will run, Warren has said she will not for now but probably would if Sanders declined to
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,751
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    AlastairMeeks said:


    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.

    ..oh and for the record Mr Meeks, I am a Conservative of the One Nation variety and I am extremely concerned about any Conservative politicians "propping up" questionable right wing zealots, including the current POTUS. However, the reason why we have a right to scrutinise Labour is that they have a leader who wishes to be PM and is on record saying that Jews aren't integrated into British society. I am not Jewish but I find that highly repugnant
    I'm certainly not saying that Jeremy Corbyn should not be closely scrutinised on this subject. His acts have been appalling.

    I'm also saying that Conservatives are entirely hypocritical about this subject, many of them having gleefully pandered to xenophobia themselves during the referendum campaign and many more having decided that xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay for Brexit. And now we see that the Conservatives don't actually care about anti-Semitism at all, because when it comes to concrete actions against an EU member state going down a dark path, they decided to prop it up.

    On pb, several posters live-tweeted every twist and turn of Labour's summer of anti-Semitism. They have been conspicuously silent about the acts of the Conservative MEPs.
    That is not true. When the story first came out I (and others) condemned what those MEPs did. I do not think that the Tories should be allying themselves with Orban, who displays anti-semitism every bit as bad as Labour and whose party, Fidesz, is the only other party in Europe not to accept in full the IHRA definition.

    Criticising hypocrisy is fine but in your rush to do so you should not - wrongly - criticise posters who have condemned both Labour and the MEPs over the same issue.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/1042096199761911808?s=21
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    Now that BBC Parliament will not be broadcasting when the Parliaments and Assemblies are on holiday does that mean the end of classic Election nights?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,220
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    On topic: Is a former Attorney-General for California really the best candidate to win back the rust belt for the Democrats, or indeed to win key early primaries?

    California has been moved forward in the primary season, hasn't it?
    Yes, to Super Tuesday, which is a possible factor in her favour.
    Though no candidate has won their party's nomination without winning at least one of the Iowa caucuses and New Hampshire primary since Bill Clinton in 1992 and he came a strong second in New Hampshire as the 'comeback kid' after the Gennifer Flowers affair
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Cyclefree said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Nigel_Foremain said:

    AlastairMeeks said:


    The crickets continue to chirp as I await all those Conservative posters continuously fretting about anti-Semitism in the Labour party finding the time to express the same anxiety about the Conservatives seeking to prop up Fidesz. Their pick-n-mix racism continues to be as selective as ever.

    ..oh and for the record Mr Meeks, I am a Conservative of the One Nation variety and I am extremely concerned about any Conservative politicians "propping up" questionable right wing zealots, including the current POTUS. However, the reason why we have a right to scrutinise Labour is that they have a leader who wishes to be PM and is on record saying that Jews aren't integrated into British society. I am not Jewish but I find that highly repugnant
    I'm certainly not saying that Jeremy Corbyn should not be closely scrutinised on this subject. His acts have been appalling.

    I'm also saying that Conservatives are entirely hypocritical about this subject, many of them having gleefully pandered to xenophobia themselves during the referendum campaign and many more having decided that xenophobia was an acceptable price to pay for Brexit. And now we see that the Conservatives don't actually care about anti-Semitism at all, because when it comes to concrete actions against an EU member state going down a dark path, they decided to prop it up.

    On pb, several posters live-tweeted every twist and turn of Labour's summer of anti-Semitism. They have been conspicuously silent about the acts of the Conservative MEPs.
    That is not true. When the story first came out I (and others) condemned what those MEPs did. I do not think that the Tories should be allying themselves with Orban, who displays anti-semitism every bit as bad as Labour and whose party, Fidesz, is the only other party in Europe not to accept in full the IHRA definition.

    Criticising hypocrisy is fine but in your rush to do so you should not - wrongly - criticise posters who have condemned both Labour and the MEPs over the same issue.
    I do not include you in that list, and I should also make specific mention of @DavidL, who was equally aghast.

    Others, however...
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited September 2018
    AlastairMeeks said:

    When the EU looks to take action to curb it, seeking to stop it from doing so.

    So, in your world, disagreeing with a particular measure against a country is tantamount to actively supporting the government of that country. By that logic, Ed Miliband and the Labour Party actively supported Assad, and the LibDems actively supported Saddam.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,751
    Nigelb said:

    Cyclefree said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    Part of your problem is you just don't understand places like Stoke or Walsall. What John Harris found running up to Brexit vote in Stoke is exactly what I was hearing, and it came as no surprise.
    The referendum was not won in Stoke or Walsall (and I doubt many pbers have been in Walsall more recently than me). It was won in affluent southern towns and villages where appalling reactionaries who hate change decided that pandering to xenophobia was an acceptable way of indulging their own prejudices. Look around you: they’re all over pb.
    I have been diverted from my work today by the personal problems of a very dear friend (marriages - pah!) so come on here for some light relief and see that it is the same old arguments interspersed with a bit of erotic spresms, whatever they may be. Have I been missing out? Or is this some sort of Baker-Street-style activity too exotic for my tender ears and eyes?
    Something I think we can agree you should avoid on your morning cappuccino ?
    I am going to have to break this to you gently. But - whisper - I don't have a morning cappuccino. Or an afternoon one either. In fact, I have very little coffee ever.

    I have just had a bit of chocolate to cheer myself up and, rather than feel good, I feel a bit sick. It is probably time for a big mug of proper Builders' Tea.

    The erotic spresms will just have to wait.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    When the EU looks to take action to curb it, seeking to stop it from doing so.

    So, in your world, disagreeing with a particular measure against a country is tantamount to actively supporting the government of that country. By that logic, Ed Miliband and the Labour Party actively supported Assad, and the LibDems actively supported Saddam.
    On this occasion, very definitely yes. Can you explain how it can be viewed differently? Michael Gove sure as heck couldn't on Sunday morning.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,148
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:


    No, just active support of a dangerous government.

    What's this 'active support' of which you speak? Been out there helping his campaigning and appearing on Hungarian TV saying how great he is?
    When the EU looks to take action to curb it, seeking to stop it from doing so.

    Another day in Hungary, another day when freedoms are being curtailed:

    https://twitter.com/alexandreafonso/status/1042043702783496192
    It is all getting a bit 1930's out there, when even Farage is finding his successor too extreme:

    https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1041762651687317504?s=19

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited September 2018
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    When the EU looks to take action to curb it, seeking to stop it from doing so.

    So, in your world, disagreeing with a particular measure against a country is tantamount to actively supporting the government of that country. By that logic, Ed Miliband and the Labour Party actively supported Assad, and the LibDems actively supported Saddam.
    On this occasion, very definitely yes. Can you explain how it can be viewed differently? Michael Gove sure as heck couldn't on Sunday morning.
    First of all, the chances of it having the desired effect is zero. Orban is hardly going to become a nice Cameroon PM just because the EU start waving sticks at him. Secondly it's quite likely to be actively counter-productive, giving Orban an excuse to blame foreigners even more than he does at the moment. Thirdly it potentially complicates Brexit, which is something which is most definitely not in the UK's interests at the moment. Fourthly it's a bit problematic interfering in the democratic (..ish) choices of a member state,

    Now to be clear, I'm not saying that if I was an MEP I'd have voted against action, and as you know several Conservative MEPs didn't. The considerations I've listed have to be weighed against the understandable wish to condemn Orban. Coming down on one side or the other is not 'supporting' him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,220
    https://mobile.twitter.com/georgeeaton/status/1042070378959577090
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    When the EU looks to take action to curb it, seeking to stop it from doing so.

    So, in your world, disagreeing with a particular measure against a country is tantamount to actively supporting the government of that country. By that logic, Ed Miliband and the Labour Party actively supported Assad, and the LibDems actively supported Saddam.
    On this occasion, very definitely yes. Can you explain how it can be viewed differently? Michael Gove sure as heck couldn't on Sunday morning.
    First of all, the chances of it having the desired effect is zero. Orban is hardly going to become a nice Cameroon PM just because the EU start waving sticks at him. Secondly it's quite likely to be actively counter-productive, giving Orban an excuse to blame foreigners even more than he does at the moment. Thirdly it potentially complicates Brexit, which is something which is most definitely not in the UK's interests at the moment. Fourthly it's a bit problematic interfering in the democratic (..ish) choices of a member state,

    Now to be clear, I'm not saying that if I was an MEP I'd have voted against action, and as you know several Conservative MEPs didn't. The considerations I've listed have to be weighed against the understandable wish to condemn Orban. Coming down on one side or the other is not 'supporting' him.
    I don't see much of a weighing exercise there. The EU is one of the few organisations that has real external influence on the Hungarian government. Conservative MEPs actively chose to undermine attempts to use that.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 53,148
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    When the EU looks to take action to curb it, seeking to stop it from doing so.

    So, in your world, disagreeing with a particular measure against a country is tantamount to actively supporting the government of that country. By that logic, Ed Miliband and the Labour Party actively supported Assad, and the LibDems actively supported Saddam.
    On this occasion, very definitely yes. Can you explain how it can be viewed differently? Michael Gove sure as heck couldn't on Sunday morning.
    First of all, the chances of it having the desired effect is zero. Orban is hardly going to become a nice Cameroon PM just because the EU start waving sticks at him. Secondly it's quite likely to be actively counter-productive, giving Orban an excuse to blame foreigners even more than he does at the moment. Thirdly it potentially complicates Brexit, which is something which is most definitely not in the UK's interests at the moment. Fourthly it's a bit problematic interfering in the democratic (..ish) choices of a member state,

    Now to be clear, I'm not saying that if I was an MEP I'd have voted against action, and as you know several Conservative MEPs didn't. The considerations I've listed have to be weighed against the understandable wish to condemn Orban. Coming down on one side or the other is not 'supporting' him.
    Spoken like a true Corbynite supporter of Palestinian Solidarity.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    edited September 2018
    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    I still can't believe that South Bucks / Beaconsfield voted Leave (by 51/49).
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    AlastairMeeks said:

    I don't see much of a weighing exercise there. The EU is one of the few organisations that has real external influence on the Hungarian government. Conservative MEPs actively chose to undermine attempts to use that.

    No they didn't. They actively chose not to support one particular 'nuclear' option, unless you know better and can cite evidence that they've lobbied the EU not to try to use its influence in other ways.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    AndyJS said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    FPT I’m afraid John Harris is looking in completely the wrong places for the causes of Brexit. Instead of investigating left-behind communities he should be visiting southern towns where complacent affluent oldies push their appalling saloon bar nonsense.

    Or visit pb, where those views can be found in abundance.

    I still can't believe that South Bucks / Beaconsfield voted Leave (by 51/49).
    I was in Gerrards Cross on the day of the vote and it was depressing how many 20-somethings were enthused about voting for Brexit.
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