politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Further thoughts on Chris Williamson succeeding Jeremy Corbyn
Options
Comments
-
If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?0
-
Note the story on the right:calum said:
No deal "riots and crimewave"
Widespread civil disorder and "necessity to call on military assistance is a real possibility".0 -
I do believe when a leadership race comes along there will be many going forward and a new star could well be bornFoxy said:
I hope so! I am green on that filly!williamglenn said:Leadership bid from Penny Mordaunt?
https://twitter.com/BBCHelenaLee/status/1038532118333272066
Indeed maybe a list of possible candidates could be put forward. I can think of quite a few0 -
They would need to find a leader to become LOTO and then form a shadow cabinetNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
They might not get the short money - that has never been tested.
But they would get the support for the LOTO office and all that comes from being the main opposition party - so getting to ask the 6 questions at PMQs, setting on the Opposition front benches, being represented on the committees and so forth.
Corbyn would be fighting for a seat with the SNP. Would be a massive shock to the system0 -
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
0 -
Last time I watched it, years ago now, there were flags from many nations being waved there. It seemed like everybody from every nation was enjoying a flow of national pride for their own. Really good.HYUFD said:William Glenn will be pleased there are still plenty of EU flags alongside Union Jacks in the Albert Hall during 'Land of Hope and Glory', though almost entirely Union Jacks and St George's crosses alone in Hyde Park
0 -
Some would say that could happen if Brexit doesn'twilliamglenn said:
Note the story on the right:calum said:
No deal "riots and crimewave"
Widespread civil disorder and "necessity to call on military assistance is a real possibility".
The whole thing is insane0 -
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
0 -
If that is the outcme, Tory members like you will need to look for another passtime. The Tories will be utterly destroyed at the next election. In fact I doubt the party would even hold together as long as that. Total electoral suicide, not to mention that 70% of your own members would be betrayed. But is May really that stupid - absolutely. You do feel that most Remainer Tories put the survival of the EU ahead of the survival of their own party. They know they will be well taken care of.HYUFD said:
I think if it was hard Brexit with No Deal it is almost certain Remain would win a second Referendum, albeit with Leave still around 40%.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Nobody could be confident of the result of a second referendum. However the Unions poll tonight chimes with a changing mood in the workers at some of our manufacturersHYUFD said:
With Leave on 49% with Survation today ie the same as its final pre EU referendum poll, do not by any means think a 'People's Vote' is a guarantee of a Remain landslide, indeed it could easily be almost exactly the same result as last timeFoxy said:
Yes, makes debate on the #peoplesvote more likely at Labour Conference. It could be last chance saloon for Jezza. Not backing it could do him in.Nigelb said:
Massacre at Ballymurphy on C4 is difficult TV to watch, but compelling.
However as it is we are heading for a BINO Brexit, probably staying aligned to EEA rules on services as well as customs union rules on goods with some minor changes to free movement requiring work permits on arrival so on that basis I think there will be little change in view0 -
Indeed, the man singing Rule Britannia had a Canadian flag on as well as a Union Jack though he did not dress as Britannia.AnneJGP said:
Last time I watched it, years ago now, there were flags from many nations being waved there. It seemed like everybody from every nation was enjoying a flow of national pride for their own. Really good.HYUFD said:William Glenn will be pleased there are still plenty of EU flags alongside Union Jacks in the Albert Hall during 'Land of Hope and Glory', though almost entirely Union Jacks and St George's crosses alone in Hyde Park
The best singer of Rule Britannia I have seen was the Peruvian Juan Diego Florez who sang it dressed as the last King of the Incas
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZdtSlXFqxA0 -
-
Of course they won't.Floater said:0 -
Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now0
-
I agreeoxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
0 -
So some funding, some moderate union money, possibly some short money.oxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
What about policies? They would need to be Pro EU, Pro second referendum, pro rejoining. What else could they stand for?0 -
A sensible centre left agendaNemtynakht said:
So some funding, some moderate union money, possibly some short money.oxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
What about policies? They would need to be Pro EU, Pro second referendum, pro rejoining. What else could they stand for?0 -
I believe that is precisely what the umpires are paid to do....AnneJGP said:
Nobody at a cricket match could possibly watch it all the time, even if every second was fascinating.Big_G_NorthWales said:
He wasnt. He was immersed on his phone or looking at himself in a mirror.steve_garner said:
Why do you think it's ok for the crowd to boo Boris when he's watching the cricket?Big_G_NorthWales said:Sky pick up Boris on his own on his phone at the Oval and he looks up as the crowd boo him
Good on the crowd
He was not watching the cricket0 -
Doesn't that make the case for a second referendum? Nobody could argue with the will of the people.archer101au said:
If that is the outcme, Tory members like you will need to look for another passtime. The Tories will be utterly destroyed at the next election. In fact I doubt the party would even hold together as long as that. Total electoral suicide, not to mention that 70% of your own members would be betrayed.HYUFD said:I think if it was hard Brexit with No Deal it is almost certain Remain would win a second Referendum, albeit with Leave still around 40%.
However as it is we are heading for a BINO Brexit, probably staying aligned to EEA rules on services as well as customs union rules on goods with some minor changes to free movement requiring work permits on arrival so on that basis I think there will be little change in view0 -
You keep saying that Archer but despite Chequers the Tories are ahead with both Survation and YouGov this week.archer101au said:
If that is the outcme, Tory members like you will need to look for another passtime. The Tories will be utterly destroyed at the next election. In fact I doubt the party would even hold together as long as that. Total electoral suicide, not to mention that 70% of your own members would be betrayed. But is May really that stupid - absolutely. You do feel that most Remainer Tories put the survival of the EU ahead of the survival of their own party. They know they will be well taken care of.HYUFD said:
I think if it was hard Brexit with No Deal it is almost certain Remain would win a second Referendum, albeit with Leave still around 40%.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Nobody could be confident of the result of a second referendum. However the Unions poll tonight chimes with a changing mood in the workers at some of our manufacturersHYUFD said:
With Leave on 49% with Survation today ie the same as its final pre EU referendum poll, do not by any means think a 'People's Vote' is a guarantee of a Remain landslide, indeed it could easily be almost exactly the same result as last timeFoxy said:
Yes, makes debate on the #peoplesvote more likely at Labour Conference. It could be last chance saloon for Jezza. Not backing it could do him in.Nigelb said:
Massacre at Ballymurphy on C4 is difficult TV to watch, but compelling.
However as it is we are heading for a BINO Brexit, probably staying aligned to EEA rules on services as well as customs union rules on goods with some minor changes to free movement requiring work permits on arrival so on that basis I think there will be little change in view
Yes UKIP are up and the Tories are down on the last general election as some Tory Leavers have left for UKIP but that is balanced by some Labour Remainers moving to the LDs and Labour are also down on the last general election too0 -
It is a good point Williamwilliamglenn said:
Doesn't that make the case for a second referendum? Nobody could argue with the will of the people.archer101au said:
If that is the outcme, Tory members like you will need to look for another passtime. The Tories will be utterly destroyed at the next election. In fact I doubt the party would even hold together as long as that. Total electoral suicide, not to mention that 70% of your own members would be betrayed.HYUFD said:I think if it was hard Brexit with No Deal it is almost certain Remain would win a second Referendum, albeit with Leave still around 40%.
However as it is we are heading for a BINO Brexit, probably staying aligned to EEA rules on services as well as customs union rules on goods with some minor changes to free movement requiring work permits on arrival so on that basis I think there will be little change in view0 -
There is a significant difference between being pro referendum and pro rejoining. The first could lead to us staying in with current agreements still in place. The latter would lead us to rejoining with a very different set of things on the table. We would certainly not be allowed back in under the same deal we have now.Nemtynakht said:
So some funding, some moderate union money, possibly some short money.oxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
What about policies? They would need to be Pro EU, Pro second referendum, pro rejoining. What else could they stand for?
I don't think there is enough support for rejoining to justify that as a launch policy.
But they could develop a properly costed National Care Service proposal that would be popular and deliverable.
They could offer reform of higher education funding that was affordable and delivered graduates who would make a real contribution to our future as a nature.
They could offer reform of the tax system - rebalancing without being punitive and not based on a 1970s class warfare perspective.
They could offer a global foreign policy that was based on respecting our existing relationships and building new ones. Not obsessing over Palestine.
There is much a centre left party can do.
The worst thing they could do would be to obsess over identity politics.0 -
And the public want TM to negotiate itHYUFD said:
You keep saying that Archer but despite Chequers the Tories are ahead with both Survation and YouGov this week.archer101au said:
If that is the outcme, Tory members like you will need to look for another passtime. The Tories will be utterly destroyed at the next election. In fact I doubt the party would even hold together as long as that. Total electoral suicide, not to mention that 70% of your own members would be betrayed. But is May really that stupid - absolutely. You do feel that most Remainer Tories put the survival of the EU ahead of the survival of their own party. They know they will be well taken care of.HYUFD said:
I think if it was hard Brexit with No Deal it is almost certain Remain would win a second Referendum, albeit with Leave still around 40%.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Nobody could be confident of the result of a second referendum. However the Unions poll tonight chimes with a changing mood in the workers at some of our manufacturersHYUFD said:
With Leave on 49% with Survation today ie the same as its final pre EU referendum poll, do not by any means think a 'People's Vote' is a guarantee of a Remain landslide, indeed it could easily be almost exactly the same result as last timeFoxy said:
Yes, makes debate on the #peoplesvote more likely at Labour Conference. It could be last chance saloon for Jezza. Not backing it could do him in.Nigelb said:
Massacre at Ballymurphy on C4 is difficult TV to watch, but compelling.
However as it is we are heading for a BINO Brexit, probably staying aligned to EEA rules on services as well as customs union rules on goods with some minor changes to free movement requiring work permits on arrival so on that basis I think there will be little change in view
Yes UKIP are up and the Tories are down on the last general election as some Tory Leavers have left for UKIP but that is balanced by some Labour Remainers moving to the LDs and Labour are also down on the last general election too0 -
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept. Stop laughing. Tackle my argument on its merits.HYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Welcome to PBDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btw
Marx was educated at university by Hegel. To his grave he believed in Hegels, I would argue philosophical concepts, of Nation State. That right wing concept what is a nation state is laced all through Marxism, you cannot have Marxism without it.
I don’t agree with Hegel’s understanding of Nation State, I see what he has there as ideology, born from particularly Germanic situation and needs. Does everyone within a nation have to speak the same language for example.
A line of Marx I do agree with, he claimed is views are uniquely shaped by being a German Jew living in London. He fled to London after participating in 1848 revolutionary tide in Europe. Put simply, 1848 is the rise of capitalism over throwing the old Feudal orders, where Marx is more or less a brother in arms with Richard Wagner.
Meanwhile, in Britain the phrase socialism had already been coined, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Marx or Marxism, or Lenin. Socialists by the way shot Lenin, during the civil war as the checka were hunting them down. Also in the Russian Revolution, as well as Bolsheviks and the Whites, were the greens.
So Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
0 -
Whatever, moderate parties are in decline across all of Europe. This party will fail.Big_G_NorthWales said:
A sensible centre left agendaNemtynakht said:
So some funding, some moderate union money, possibly some short money.oxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
What about policies? They would need to be Pro EU, Pro second referendum, pro rejoining. What else could they stand for?
If I was a moderate left Labour MP, I would stay in the Labour party.
If Corbyn wins in 2022, then he will likely have a small majority. A moderate left block of MPs will have some real influence.
If Corbyn loses in 2022, then whoever follows Corbyn will likely be moderate left.
If the moderate left create a new party, then not just 2022 but also 20027 are probably lost.
(Small surprise it is Tories & LibDems enthusiastically urging the moderate left to jump).
0 -
FAKE NEWSoxfordsimon said:
Of course they won't.Floater said:0 -
And she willBig_G_NorthWales said:
And the public want TM to negotiate itHYUFD said:
You keep saying that Archer but despite Chequers the Tories are ahead with both Survation and YouGov this week.archer101au said:
If that is the outcme, Tory members like you will need to look for another passtime. The Tories will be utterly destroyed at the next election. In fact I doubt the party would even hold together as long as that. Total electoral suicide, not to mention that 70% of your own members would be betrayed. But is May really that stupid - absolutely. You do feel that most Remainer Tories put the survival of the EU ahead of the survival of their own party. They know they will be well taken care of.HYUFD said:
I think if it was hard Brexit with No Deal it is almost certain Remain would win a second Referendum, albeit with Leave still around 40%.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Nobody could be confident of the result of a second referendum. However the Unions poll tonight chimes with a changing mood in the workers at some of our manufacturersHYUFD said:
With Leave on 49% with Survation today ie the same as its final pre EU referendum poll, do not by any means think a 'People's Vote' is a guarantee of a Remain landslide, indeed it could easily be almost exactly the same result as last timeFoxy said:
Yes, makes debate on the #peoplesvote more likely at Labour Conference. It could be last chance saloon for Jezza. Not backing it could do him in.Nigelb said:
Massacre at Ballymurphy on C4 is difficult TV to watch, but compelling.
However as it is we are heading for a BINO Brexit, probably staying aligned to EEA rules on services as well as customs union rules on goods with some minor changes to free movement requiring work permits on arrival so on that basis I think there will be little change in view
Yes UKIP are up and the Tories are down on the last general election as some Tory Leavers have left for UKIP but that is balanced by some Labour Remainers moving to the LDs and Labour are also down on the last general election too0 -
All kicking off in the US Open. Serena Williams has been reprimanded for calling the Umpire a thief - and Osaka was awarded that particular game as a penalty against Williams for verbal abuse
Williams then called the referee - and said it was because she was a woman that she was penalised for her language as men don't suffer when they say things.0 -
'I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept.'LordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept. Stop laughing. Tackle my argument on its merits.HYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Welcome to PBDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btw
Marx was educated at university by Hegel. To his grave he believed in Hegels, I would argue philosophical concepts, of Nation State. That right wing concept what is a nation state is laced all through Marxism, you cannot have Marxism without it.
I don’t agree with Hegel’s understanding of Nation State, I see what he has there as ideology, born from particularly Germanic situation and needs. Does everyone within a nation have to speak the same language for example.
A line of Marx I do agree with, he claimed is views are uniquely shaped by being a German Jew living in London. He fled to London after participating in 1848 revolutionary tide in Europe. Put simply, 1848 is the rise of capitalism over throwing the old Feudal orders, where Marx is more or less a brother in arms with Richard Wagner.
Meanwhile, in Britain the phrase socialism had already been coined, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Marx or Marxism, or Lenin. Socialists by the way shot Lenin, during the civil war as the checka were hunting them down. Also in the Russian Revolution, as well as Bolsheviks and the Whites, were the greens.
So Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
Beyond satire
The Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics deals with the rest, socialism is just the pathway to communism0 -
That seems like a reasonable platform. Who would lead?oxfordsimon said:
There is a significant difference between being pro referendum and pro rejoining. The first could lead to us staying in with current agreements still in place. The latter would lead us to rejoining with a very different set of things on the table. We would certainly not be allowed back in under the same deal we have now.Nemtynakht said:
So some funding, some moderate union money, possibly some short money.oxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
What about policies? They would need to be Pro EU, Pro second referendum, pro rejoining. What else could they stand for?
I don't think there is enough support for rejoining to justify that as a launch policy.
But they could develop a properly costed National Care Service proposal that would be popular and deliverable.
They could offer reform of higher education funding that was affordable and delivered graduates who would make a real contribution to our future as a nature.
They could offer reform of the tax system - rebalancing without being punitive and not based on a 1970s class warfare perspective.
They could offer a global foreign policy that was based on respecting our existing relationships and building new ones. Not obsessing over Palestine.
There is much a centre left party can do.
The worst thing they could do would be to obsess over identity politics.0 -
I agree, the hard left are well organised, but not that numerous.YBarddCwsc said:
Whatever, moderate parties are in decline across all of Europe. This party will fail.Big_G_NorthWales said:
A sensible centre left agendaNemtynakht said:
So some funding, some moderate union money, possibly some short money.oxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
What about policies? They would need to be Pro EU, Pro second referendum, pro rejoining. What else could they stand for?
If I was a moderate left Labour MP, I would stay in the Labour party.
If Corbyn wins in 2022, then he will likely have a small majority. A moderate left block of MPs will have some real influence.
If Corbyn loses in 2022, then whoever follows Corbyn will likely be moderate left.
If the moderate left create a new party, then not just 2022 but also 20027 are probably lost.
(Small surprise it is Tories & LibDems enthusiastically urging the moderate left to jump).0 -
-
Not Cooper, not Umunna, not Kinnock, not Starmer, not Watson (other than as interim leader of the breakaway)Nemtynakht said:
That seems like a reasonable platform. Who would lead?oxfordsimon said:
There is a significant difference between being pro referendum and pro rejoining. The first could lead to us staying in with current agreements still in place. The latter would lead us to rejoining with a very different set of things on the table. We would certainly not be allowed back in under the same deal we have now.Nemtynakht said:
So some funding, some moderate union money, possibly some short money.oxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
What about policies? They would need to be Pro EU, Pro second referendum, pro rejoining. What else could they stand for?
I don't think there is enough support for rejoining to justify that as a launch policy.
But they could develop a properly costed National Care Service proposal that would be popular and deliverable.
They could offer reform of higher education funding that was affordable and delivered graduates who would make a real contribution to our future as a nature.
They could offer reform of the tax system - rebalancing without being punitive and not based on a 1970s class warfare perspective.
They could offer a global foreign policy that was based on respecting our existing relationships and building new ones. Not obsessing over Palestine.
There is much a centre left party can do.
The worst thing they could do would be to obsess over identity politics.
I don't see any real talent in Creasy
I could see Berger being the fresh face0 -
Congrats to Japan's Naomi Osaka who just defeated Serena Williams to win the US Open ladies' title!0
-
Owen thingy? ;-)oxfordsimon said:
Not Cooper, not Umunna, not Kinnock, not Starmer, not Watson (other than as interim leader of the breakaway)Nemtynakht said:
That seems like a reasonable platform. Who would lead?oxfordsimon said:
There is a significant difference between being pro referendum and pro rejoining. The first could lead to us staying in with current agreements still in place. The latter would lead us to rejoining with a very different set of things on the table. We would certainly not be allowed back in under the same deal we have now.Nemtynakht said:
So some funding, some moderate union money, possibly some short money.oxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
What about policies? They would need to be Pro EU, Pro second referendum, pro rejoining. What else could they stand for?
I don't think there is enough support for rejoining to justify that as a launch policy.
But they could develop a properly costed National Care Service proposal that would be popular and deliverable.
They could offer reform of higher education funding that was affordable and delivered graduates who would make a real contribution to our future as a nature.
They could offer reform of the tax system - rebalancing without being punitive and not based on a 1970s class warfare perspective.
They could offer a global foreign policy that was based on respecting our existing relationships and building new ones. Not obsessing over Palestine.
There is much a centre left party can do.
The worst thing they could do would be to obsess over identity politics.
I don't see any real talent in Creasy
I could see Berger being the fresh face0 -
My goodness. I thought the stork brought all those iPhones! You mean to tell me that FoxComn manufactures them at the largest plant in the world!?HYUFD said:
Apple has plants and factories which supply it, just mainly in China not the USACharles said:
You don’t build apple plants...HYUFD said:
Though his policy of demanding plants and jobs be brought back to the USA is popular with his baseglw said:
He is quite simply the dumbest f*cker ever to hold the office of President*.CarlottaVance said:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-04-24/inside-one-of-the-world-s-most-secretive-iphone-factories
You can be so blooming literal sometime
Hint: you don’t build apple TREES. Does that make it clearer?0 -
0
-
The Greater German Reich was ruled by the National SOCIALIST Party, but they weren't socialist, let alone communist. My point is that just because a body calls itself something, it doesn't necessarily mean it is.HYUFD said:
'I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept.'LordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept. Stop laughing. Tackle my argument on its merits.HYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Welcome to PBDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btw
Marx was educated at university by Hegel. To his grave he believed in Hegels, I would argue philosophical concepts, of Nation State. That right wing concept what is a nation state is laced all through Marxism, you cannot have Marxism without it.
I don’t agree with Hegel’s understanding of Nation State, I see what he has there as ideology, born from particularly Germanic situation and needs. Does everyone within a nation have to speak the same language for example.
A line of Marx I do agree with, he claimed is views are uniquely shaped by being a German Jew living in London. He fled to London after participating in 1848 revolutionary tide in Europe. Put simply, 1848 is the rise of capitalism over throwing the old Feudal orders, where Marx is more or less a brother in arms with Richard Wagner.
Meanwhile, in Britain the phrase socialism had already been coined, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Marx or Marxism, or Lenin. Socialists by the way shot Lenin, during the civil war as the checka were hunting them down. Also in the Russian Revolution, as well as Bolsheviks and the Whites, were the greens.
So Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
Beyond satire
The Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics deals with the rest, socialism is just the pathway to communism
(They did have a socialist-leaning wing, but that was purged in 1934. Whilst we think of Nazi Germany as a totalitarian regime, which it was in principle, one of the reasons why it fell was that it failed to harness its capitalist economy to total war needs until far too late.)0 -
I have previously pointed out that Marxism and Leninism occupy the centreground between the extremes of bourgeois democracy and anarcho-syndycalism.LordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept. Stop laughing. Tackle my argument on its merits.HYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Welcome to PBDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btw
Marx was educated at university by Hegel. To his grave he believed in Hegels, I would argue philosophical concepts, of Nation State. That right wing concept what is a nation state is laced all through Marxism, you cannot have Marxism without it.
I don’t agree with Hegel’s understanding of Nation State, I see what he has there as ideology, born from particularly Germanic situation and needs. Does everyone within a nation have to speak the same language for example.
A line of Marx I do agree with, he claimed is views are uniquely shaped by being a German Jew living in London. He fled to London after participating in 1848 revolutionary tide in Europe. Put simply, 1848 is the rise of capitalism over throwing the old Feudal orders, where Marx is more or less a brother in arms with Richard Wagner.
Meanwhile, in Britain the phrase socialism had already been coined, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Marx or Marxism, or Lenin. Socialists by the way shot Lenin, during the civil war as the checka were hunting them down. Also in the Russian Revolution, as well as Bolsheviks and the Whites, were the greens.
So Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
I have always had a soft spot for Bakunin myself.
0 -
OK plant apple trees, yes great move along nowCharles said:
My goodness. I thought the stork brought all those iPhones! You mean to tell me that FoxComn manufactures them at the largest plant in the world!?HYUFD said:
Apple has plants and factories which supply it, just mainly in China not the USACharles said:
You don’t build apple plants...HYUFD said:
Though his policy of demanding plants and jobs be brought back to the USA is popular with his baseglw said:
He is quite simply the dumbest f*cker ever to hold the office of President*.CarlottaVance said:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2016-04-24/inside-one-of-the-world-s-most-secretive-iphone-factories
You can be so blooming literal sometime
Hint: you don’t build apple TREES. Does that make it clearer?0 -
I don’t see what is wrong with allowing PressTV I to EnfieldBig_G_NorthWales said:
And allowing Iranian press tv into the Enfield meeting is the cornerstone of democracyLordOfReason said:
No. You are wrong. If there’s enough difference between them, it creates a dialectic we learn from.Torby_Fennel said:
Influence, yes. Educate, no.LordOfReason said:
The number one reason to have political parties is to educate the voters on issues. You are crazy to even consider circumventing that.
The main purpose of political parties is they help educate us on the issues. They have their particular view. They argue it out. That is important to democracy here in Britain. Healthy political party democracy means healthy British democracy. But When policy gets samey between the parties, you elect a Labour government and it’s actually just as in favour of privatisation and outsourcing for example, that’s not healthy for British democracy. That is bad.
What’s currently very bad for British democracy is two thirds of PLP is New Labour, whilst the Labour movement isn’t New Labour at all now. The New Labour dominance of PLP is illegitimate and undemocratic. and democratic efforts to put right whats wrong now under attack by New Labour, who are defending a PLP majority that when it sides with Tory government in HOC is something bad for British democracy. They show their colours with their calculated use of “dogs” to demonise and bully their opponents.
I can’t put it any more simply. This is cornerstones of British democracy, right here, this weekend.
And with respect I do not need educating by you or anyone else, thank you
If they are deemed suitable to have a licence to operate in the U.K. then they should have the same freedoms as the rest of the media0 -
The Nazis were always nationalist and fascist, they just moved from socialism to corporatism in economic policyrpjs said:
The Greater German Reich was ruled by the National SOCIALIST Party, but they weren't socialist, let alone communist. My point is that just because a body calls itself something, it doesn't necessarily mean it is.HYUFD said:
'I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept.'LordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept. Stop laughing. Tackle my argument on its merits.HYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Welcome to PBDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btw
Marx was educated at university by Hegel. To his grave he believed in Hegels, I would argue philosophical concepts, of Nation State. That right wing concept what is a nation state is laced all through Marxism, you cannot have Marxism without it.
I don’t agree with Hegel’s understanding of Nation State, I see what he has there as ideology, born from particularly Germanic situation and needs. Does everyone within a nation have to speak the same language for example.
A line of Marx I do agree with, he claimed is views are uniquely shaped by being a German Jew living in London. He fled to London after participating in 1848 revolutionary tide in Europe. Put simply, 1848 is the rise of capitalism over throwing the old Feudal orders, where Marx is more or less a brother in arms with Richard Wagner.
Meanwhile, in Britain the phrase socialism had already been coined, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Marx or Marxism, or Lenin. Socialists by the way shot Lenin, during the civil war as the checka were hunting them down. Also in the Russian Revolution, as well as Bolsheviks and the Whites, were the greens.
So Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
Beyond satire
The Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics deals with the rest, socialism is just the pathway to communism
(They did have a socialist-leaning wing, but that was purged in 1934. Whilst we think of Nazi Germany as a totalitarian regime, which it was in principle, one of the reasons why it fell was that it failed to harness its capitalist economy to total war needs until far too late.)
0 -
They had their licence revoked several years ago...Charles said:
I don’t see what is wrong with allowing PressTV I to EnfieldBig_G_NorthWales said:
And allowing Iranian press tv into the Enfield meeting is the cornerstone of democracyLordOfReason said:
No. You are wrong. If there’s enough difference between them, it creates a dialectic we learn from.Torby_Fennel said:
Influence, yes. Educate, no.LordOfReason said:
The number one reason to have political parties is to educate the voters on issues. You are crazy to even consider circumventing that.
The main purpose of political parties is they help educate us on the issues. They have their particular view. They argue it out. That is important to democracy here in Britain. Healthy political party democracy means healthy British democracy. But When policy gets samey between the parties, you elect a Labour government and it’s actually just as in favour of privatisation and outsourcing for example, that’s not healthy for British democracy. That is bad.
What’s currently very bad for British democracy is two thirds of PLP is New Labour, whilst the Labour movement isn’t New Labour at all now. The New Labour dominance of PLP is illegitimate and undemocratic. and democratic efforts to put right whats wrong now under attack by New Labour, who are defending a PLP majority that when it sides with Tory government in HOC is something bad for British democracy. They show their colours with their calculated use of “dogs” to demonise and bully their opponents.
I can’t put it any more simply. This is cornerstones of British democracy, right here, this weekend.
And with respect I do not need educating by you or anyone else, thank you
If they are deemed suitable to have a licence to operate in the U.K. then they should have the same freedoms as the rest of the media
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/jan/20/iran-press-tv-loses-uk-licence0 -
So they can get money, they can have popular policies, but there is no leader. That is probably why it won’t happen. A leader would draw the required people to follow them. In all politicians at the moment I see little leadership.oxfordsimon said:
Not Cooper, not Umunna, not Kinnock, not Starmer, not Watson (other than as interim leader of the breakaway)Nemtynakht said:
That seems like a reasonable platform. Who would lead?oxfordsimon said:
There is a significant difference between being pro referendum and pro rejoining. The first could lead to us staying in with current agreements still in place. The latter would lead us to rejoining with a very different set of things on the table. We would certainly not be allowed back in under the same deal we have now.Nemtynakht said:
So some funding, some moderate union money, possibly some short money.oxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
What about policies? They would need to be Pro EU, Pro second referendum, pro rejoining. What else could they stand for?
I don't think there is enough support for rejoining to justify that as a launch policy.
But they could develop a properly costed National Care Service proposal that would be popular and deliverable.
They could offer reform of higher education funding that was affordable and delivered graduates who would make a real contribution to our future as a nature.
They could offer reform of the tax system - rebalancing without being punitive and not based on a 1970s class warfare perspective.
They could offer a global foreign policy that was based on respecting our existing relationships and building new ones. Not obsessing over Palestine.
There is much a centre left party can do.
The worst thing they could do would be to obsess over identity politics.
I don't see any real talent in Creasy
I could see Berger being the fresh face
0 -
Conservatives and Unionists...thecommissioner said:
Liberal Democrats.rpjs said:My point is that just because a body calls itself something, it doesn't necessarily mean it is.
Labour- the party of the working class.0 -
It’s a matter of degree. Resslections are often a putsch ina small group rather than a more extended processFoxy said:
That surely is an argument against members selecting candidates in the first place. What is reselection but the same?Charles said:
Because those who turn up are not representative of activists let alone members or votersLordOfReason said:
Excellent! I’m glad you’ve made yourself available to answer the question. Now answer the question.Roger said:I've been a bit torn but having just seen Chukka Umuna and John McDonnell it's clear McDonnell is making a big mistake. Ummuna is not a Blair Clone but what most on the centre left hope for from their Labour MPs. Heavyweight throwbacks to the 70's like McDonnell is voter poison. Gone was the avuncular uncle and what we saw was very ugly indeed.
Q) What is actually wrong with Democratic reelection of candidates, so constituency members actually have candidate who represents their views?
The new boundaries make it mandatory in many places anyway. Though I note that in Leics there isvery little change, so Vaz, Kendall and Ashworth will all be safe. They are all pretty popular with their members from what I have seen0 -
Amir Khan showing why he will never be a top top boxer...for all his flashy skills, he chin is made of glass.0
-
Time to bid everyone a pleasant nights rest
Good night folks0 -
We have HY on a terrain he is particularly shakey on. Almost embaressing himself, as it’s history of OUR country, our Socialism, not foreign. Mill, Locke, Betham, Owen, a classical British liberal socialism.rpjs said:
The Greater German Reich was ruled by the National SOCIALIST Party, but they weren't socialist, let alone communist. My point is that just because a body calls itself something, it doesn't necessarily mean it is.HYUFD said:
'I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept.'LordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept. Stop laughing. Tackle my argument on its merits.HYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Welcome to PBDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btw
Marx was educated at university by Hegel. To his grave he believed in Hegels, I would argue philosophical concepts, of Nation State. That right wing concept what is a nation state is laced all through Marxism, you cannot have Marxism without it.
I don’t agree with Hegel’s understanding of Nation State, I see what he has there as ideology, born from particularly Germanic situation and needs. Does everyone within a nation have to speak the same language for example.
A line of Marx I do agree with, he claimed is views are uniquely shaped by being a German Jew living in London. He fled to London after participating in 1848 revolutionary tide in Europe. Put simply, 1848 is the rise of capitalism over throwing the old Feudal orders, where Marx is more or less a brother in arms with Richard Wagner.
Meanwhile, in Britain the phrase socialism had already been coined, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Marx or Marxism, or Lenin. Socialists by the way shot Lenin, during the civil war as the checka were hunting them down. Also in the Russian Revolution, as well as Bolsheviks and the Whites, were the greens.
So Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
Beyond satire
The Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics deals with the rest, socialism is just the pathway to communism
(They did have a socialist-leaning wing, but that was purged in 1934. Whilst we think of Nazi Germany as a totalitarian regime, which it was in principle, one of the reasons why it fell was that it failed to harness its capitalist economy to total war needs until far too late.)
Not Marx. Not the Bolsheviks.
When RochdalePoineers calls himself a socialist, this is what you should be thinking of.0 -
What the dickens has been going on at the US Open?0
-
Socialism is global by definition, as the whole history of the International Socialist movement affirms. Socialism is also not liberal as by definition a socialist state dominated economy can never be a fully liberal market oneLordOfReason said:
We have HY on a terrain he is particularly shakey on. Almost embaressing himself, as it’s history of OUR country, our Socialism, not foreign. Mill, Locke, Betham, Owen, a classical British liberal socialism.rpjs said:
The Greater German Reich was ruledt economy to total war needs until far too late.)HYUFD said:
'I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept.'LordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept. Stop laughing. Tackle my argument on its merits.HYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Welcome to PBDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btw
Marx was educated at university by Hegel. To his grave he believed in Hegels, I would argue philosophical concepts, of Nation State. That right wing concept what is a nation state is laced all through Marxism, you cannot have Marxism without it.
I don’t agree with Hegel’s understanding of Nation State, I see what he has there as ideology, born from particularly Germanic situation and needs. Does everyone within a nation have to speak the same language for example.
A line of Marx I do agree with, he claimed is views are uniquely shaped by being a German Jew living in London. He fled to London after participating in 1848 revolutionary tide in Europe. Put simply, 1848 is the rise of capitalism over throwing the old Feudal orders, where Marx is more or less a brother in arms with Richard Wagner.
Meanwhile, in Britain the phrase socialism had already been coined, and it has absolutely nothing to do with Marx or Marxism, or Lenin. Socialists by the way shot Lenin, during the civil war as the checka were hunting them down. Also in the Russian Revolution, as well as Bolsheviks and the Whites, were the greens.
So Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
Beyond satire
The Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics deals with the rest, socialism is just the pathway to communism
Not Marx. Not the Bolsheviks.
When RochdalePoineers calls himself a socialist, this is what you should be thinking of.0 -
I’m fairly sure that Carswrll got Short money when he moved to UKIP. It was a bit of a scandal - the Kippers wanted him to take it all and use it to find their HQ but he refused and only took what he needed to find parliamentary research (which is the official purpose)oxfordsimon said:
They would need to find a leader to become LOTO and then form a shadow cabinetNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
They might not get the short money - that has never been tested.
But they would get the support for the LOTO office and all that comes from being the main opposition party - so getting to ask the 6 questions at PMQs, setting on the Opposition front benches, being represented on the committees and so forth.
Corbyn would be fighting for a seat with the SNP. Would be a massive shock to the system0 -
Plus this is the first time that anyone can remember that an internal party meeting of this sort was filmed by the media in this way.FrancisUrquhart said:
They had their licence revoked several years ago...Charles said:
I don’t see what is wrong with allowing PressTV I to EnfieldBig_G_NorthWales said:
And allowing Iranian press tv into the Enfield meeting is the cornerstone of democracyLordOfReason said:
No. You are wrong. If there’s enough difference between them, it creates a dialectic we learn from.Torby_Fennel said:
Influence, yes. Educate, no.LordOfReason said:
The number one reason to have political parties is to educate the voters on issues. You are crazy to even consider circumventing that.
The main purpose of political parties is they help educate us on the issues. They have their particular view. They argue it out. That is important to democracy here in Britain. Healthy political party democracy means healthy British democracy. But When policy gets samey between the parties, you elect a Labour government and it’s actually just as in favour of privatisation and outsourcing for example, that’s not healthy for British democracy. That is bad.
What’s currently very bad for British democracy is two thirds of PLP is New Labour, whilst the Labour movement isn’t New Labour at all now. The New Labour dominance of PLP is illegitimate and undemocratic. and democratic efforts to put right whats wrong now under attack by New Labour, who are defending a PLP majority that when it sides with Tory government in HOC is something bad for British democracy. They show their colours with their calculated use of “dogs” to demonise and bully their opponents.
I can’t put it any more simply. This is cornerstones of British democracy, right here, this weekend.
And with respect I do not need educating by you or anyone else, thank you
If they are deemed suitable to have a licence to operate in the U.K. then they should have the same freedoms as the rest of the media
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/jan/20/iran-press-tv-loses-uk-licence
From what has been said, it was not approved by the Chair of the meeting and they carried on after being told to stop.
Plus the two people involved in the filming (and being in the employ of PressTV) also voted. That is not the behaviour of responsible members of the media.0 -
Didn’t know thatFrancisUrquhart said:
They had their licence revoked several years ago...Charles said:
I don’t see what is wrong with allowing PressTV I to EnfieldBig_G_NorthWales said:
And allowing Iranian press tv into the Enfield meeting is the cornerstone of democracyLordOfReason said:
No. You are wrong. If there’s enough difference between them, it creates a dialectic we learn from.Torby_Fennel said:
Influence, yes. Educate, no.LordOfReason said:
The number one reason to have political parties is to educate the voters on issues. You are crazy to even consider circumventing that.
The main purpose of political parties is they help educate us on the issues. They have their particular view. They argue it out. That is important to democracy here in Britain. Healthy political party democracy means healthy British democracy. But When policy gets samey between the parties, you elect a Labour government and it’s actually just as in favour of privatisation and outsourcing for example, that’s not healthy for British democracy. That is bad.
What’s currently very bad for British democracy is two thirds of PLP is New Labour, whilst the Labour movement isn’t New Labour at all now. The New Labour dominance of PLP is illegitimate and undemocratic. and democratic efforts to put right whats wrong now under attack by New Labour, who are defending a PLP majority that when it sides with Tory government in HOC is something bad for British democracy. They show their colours with their calculated use of “dogs” to demonise and bully their opponents.
I can’t put it any more simply. This is cornerstones of British democracy, right here, this weekend.
And with respect I do not need educating by you or anyone else, thank you
If they are deemed suitable to have a licence to operate in the U.K. then they should have the same freedoms as the rest of the media
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2012/jan/20/iran-press-tv-loses-uk-licence
(It was stupid anyway as someone said upthread because it opened up a line of attack)0 -
Not to mention the Levellers and Diggers. The Putney debates of 1647 give an idea of how British radical socialist ideas were.LordOfReason said:
We have HY on a terrain he is particularly shakey on. Almost embaressing himself, as it’s history of OUR country, our Socialism, not foreign. Mill, Locke, Betham, Owen, a classical British liberal socialism.rpjs said:
The Greater German Reich was ruled by the National SOCIALIST Party, but they weren't socialist, let alone communist. My point is that just because a body calls itself something, it doesn't necessarily mean it is.HYUFD said:
'I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept.'LordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept. Stop laughing. Tackle my argument on its merits.HYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Welcome to PBDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btw
Marx was educated at university by Hegel. To his grave he believed in Hegels, I would argue philosophical concepts, of Nation State. That right wing concept what is a nation state is laced all through Marxism, you cannot have Marxism without it.
I don’t agree with Hegel’s understanding of Nation State, I see what he has there as ideology, born from particularly Germanic situation and needs. Does everyone within a nation have to speak the same language for example.
So Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
Beyond satire
The Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics deals with the rest, socialism is just the pathway to communism
(They did have a socialist-leaning wing, but that was purged in 1934. Whilst we think of Nazi Germany as a totalitarian regime, which it was in principle, one of the reasons why it fell was that it failed to harness its capitalist economy to total war needs until far too late.)
Not Marx. Not the Bolsheviks.
When RochdalePoineers calls himself a socialist, this is what you should be thinking of.0 -
They can find a leader. I think that Watson would be a reasonable choice to lead the breakaway but he is not anyone who could be a longterm option.Nemtynakht said:
So they can get money, they can have popular policies, but there is no leader. That is probably why it won’t happen. A leader would draw the required people to follow them. In all politicians at the moment I see little leadership.oxfordsimon said:
Not Cooper, not Umunna, not Kinnock, not Starmer, not Watson (other than as interim leader of the breakaway)Nemtynakht said:
That seems like a reasonable platform. Who would lead?oxfordsimon said:
There is a significant difference between being pro referendum and pro rejoining. The first could lead to us staying in with current agreements still in place. The latter would lead us to rejoining with a very different set of things on the table. We would certainly not be allowed back in under the same deal we have now.Nemtynakht said:
So some funding, some moderate union money, possibly some short money.oxfordsimon said:
Not to establish themselves in Parliament they wouldn't. But they would need to find funding and fast - and there would be moderate unions who would follow them in a split.Big_G_NorthWales said:
They would need to attract union supportNemtynakht said:If half +1 Labour MPs decide to split and call themselves True Labour or something, what would actually happen? They would be the official opposition. But what else?
What about policies? They would need to be Pro EU, Pro second referendum, pro rejoining. What else could they stand for?
I don't think there is enough support for rejoining to justify that as a launch policy.
But they could develop a properly costed National Care Service proposal that would be popular and deliverable.
They could offer reform of higher education funding that was affordable and delivered graduates who would make a real contribution to our future as a nature.
They could offer reform of the tax system - rebalancing without being punitive and not based on a 1970s class warfare perspective.
They could offer a global foreign policy that was based on respecting our existing relationships and building new ones. Not obsessing over Palestine.
There is much a centre left party can do.
The worst thing they could do would be to obsess over identity politics.
I don't see any real talent in Creasy
I could see Berger being the fresh face
The SDP started as a Gang of Four and then resolved things once they were up and running.0 -
Williams called the Umpire a thiefAndyJS said:What the dickens has been going on at the US Open?
Was penalised a game for Verbal Abuse
She then called in the referee
All got very messy0 -
-
"Europe Elects
@EuropeElects
2h2 hours ago
Germany, Emnid poll:
CDU/CSU-EPP: 29% (-1)
SPD-S&D: 17% (-2)
AfD-EFDD: 15%
GRÜNE-G/EFA: 14%
LINKE-LEFT: 10% (+1)
FDP-ALDE: 9%
Field work: 30/08/18 – 5/09/18
Sample size: 2,472"0 -
In other Johnson news - best wishes to Michael Johnson on a full recovery:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/454616040 -
You've spent the last 2 years on this forum doing precisely that.williamglenn said:
Doesn't that make the case for a second referendum? Nobody could argue with the will of the people.archer101au said:
If that is the outcme, Tory members like you will need to look for another passtime. The Tories will be utterly destroyed at the next election. In fact I doubt the party would even hold together as long as that. Total electoral suicide, not to mention that 70% of your own members would be betrayed.HYUFD said:I think if it was hard Brexit with No Deal it is almost certain Remain would win a second Referendum, albeit with Leave still around 40%.
However as it is we are heading for a BINO Brexit, probably staying aligned to EEA rules on services as well as customs union rules on goods with some minor changes to free movement requiring work permits on arrival so on that basis I think there will be little change in view0 -
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.0 -
The lowest stage of humanity is experienced when the individual must labour for a small pittance of wages from others.HYUFD said:
Socialism is global by definition, as the whole history of the International Socialist movement affirms. Socialism is also not liberal as by definition a socialist state dominated economy can never be a fully liberal market oneLordOfReason said:
We have HY on a terrain he is particularly shakey on. Almost embaressing himself, as it’s history of OUR country, our Socialism, not foreign. Mill, Locke, Betham, Owen, a classical British liberal socialism.rpjs said:
The Greater German Reich was ruledt economy to total war needs until far too late.)HYUFD said:
'I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing..'LordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wingHYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btwDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
Beyond satire
The Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics deals with the rest, socialism is just the pathway to communism
Not Marx. Not the Bolsheviks.
When RochdalePoineers calls himself a socialist, this is what you should be thinking of.
To train and educate the rising generation will at all times be the first object of society, to which every other will be subordinate.
Women will be no longer made the slaves of, or dependent upon men ... They will be equal in education, rights, privileges and personal liberty.
The working classes may be injuriously degraded and oppressed in three ways:
1st - When they are neglected in infancy
2nd - When they are overworked by their employer, and are thus rendered incompetent from ignorance to make a good use of high wages when they can procure them.
3rd - When they are paid low wages for their labour.
Since the introduction of inanimate mechanism into British manufactories, man, with few exceptions, has been treated as a secondary and inferior machine; and far more attention has been given to perfect the raw materials of wood and metals than those of body and mind.
Lenin is not born when a Welsh socialist writes this, whilst Young Marx is gazing up in awe, and forever influenced by right wing philosopher Hegel.0 -
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.0 -
None of that is really socialism, at most radicalism of the time, even the Tories now support gender equality, the minimum wage, state education until 18, the NHS etc and would not disagree with most of that platform.LordOfReason said:
The lowest stage of humanity is experienced when the individual must labour for a small pittance of wages from others.HYUFD said:
Socialism is global by definition, as the whole history of the International Socialist movement affirms. Socialism is also not liberal as by definition a socialist state dominated economy can never be a fully liberal market oneLordOfReason said:
We have HY on a oineers calls himself a socialist, this is what you should be thinking of.rpjs said:
The Greater German Reich was ruledt economy to total war needs until far too late.)HYUFD said:
'I often mLordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wingHYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btwDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
To train and educate the rising generation will at all times be the first object of society, to which every other will be subordinate.
Women will be no longer made the slaves of, or dependent upon men ... They will be equal in education, rights, privileges and personal liberty.
The working classes may be injuriously degraded and oppressed in three ways:
1st - When they are neglected in infancy
2nd - When they are overworked by their employer, and are thus rendered incompetent from ignorance to make a good use of high wages when they can procure them.
3rd - When they are paid low wages for their labour.
Since the introduction of inanimate mechanism into British manufactories, man, with few exceptions, has been treated as a secondary and inferior machine; and far more attention has been given to perfect the raw materials of wood and metals than those of body and mind.
Lenin is not born when a Welsh socialist writes this, whilst Young Marx is gazing up in awe, and forever influenced by right wing philosopher Hegel.
Socialism remains though a philosophy focused on government or collective ownership or management of the means of production
https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/socialism
0 -
Leavers do not have a monopoly of patriotism. It is good to celebrate the contribution Britain and Europe have made to each others musical culture. Together we are strong, divided we are weak.Casino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.0 -
Yes. Not forgetting Rainsborough and the levellers, and the Jerusalem that may have been if they had won, and Cromwell murdered instead.Foxy said:
Not to mention the Levellers and Diggers. The Putney debates of 1647 give an idea of how British radical socialist ideas were.LordOfReason said:
We have HY on a terrain he is particularly shakey on. Almost embaressing himself, as it’s history of OUR country, our Socialism, not foreign. Mill, Locke, Betham, Owen, a classical British liberal socialism.rpjs said:
The Greater German Reich was ruled by the National SOCIALIST Party, but they weren't socialist, let alone communist. My point is that just because a body calls itself something, it doesn't necessarily mean it is.HYUFD said:
'I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept.'LordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wing. Too right wing for me, as an ideological concept. Stop laughing. Tackle my argument on its merits.HYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Welcome to PBDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btw
Marx was educated at university by Hegel. To his grave he believed in Hegels, I would argue philosophical concepts, of Nation State. That right wing concept what is a nation state is laced all through Marxism, you cannot have Marxism without it.
I don’t agree with Hegel’s understanding of Nation State, I see what he has there as ideology, born from particularly Germanic situation and needs. Does everyone within a nation have to speak the same language for example.
So Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
Beyond satire
The Union of Soviet SOCIALIST Republics deals with the rest, socialism is just the pathway to communism
(They did have a socialist-leaning wing, but that was purged in 1934. Whilst we think of Nazi Germany as a totalitarian regime, which it was in principle, one of the reasons why it fell was that it failed to harness its capitalist economy to total war needs until far too late.)
Not Marx. Not the Bolsheviks.
When RochdalePoineers calls himself a socialist, this is what you should be thinking of.0 -
It's nothing to do with Leavers or Remainers. That's your obsession, not mine.Foxy said:
Leavers do not have a monopoly of patriotism. It is good to celebrate the contribution Britain and Europe have made to each others musical culture. Together we are strong, divided we are weak.Casino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
I do object to it being politicised with the stupid saturation of EU flags in the audience.
It's a British cultural tradition and a national celebration. That means flying your nation's flag together with pride regardless of your political views.0 -
Give them time.HYUFD said:
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.0 -
Not my cup of tea, but Brexit does pose a threat to many musicians, a group that particularly benefits from Freedom of Movement.Casino_Royale said:
It's nothing to do with Leavers or Remainers. That's your obsession, not mine.Foxy said:
Leavers do not have a monopoly of patriotism. It is good to celebrate the contribution Britain and Europe have made to each others musical culture. Together we are strong, divided we are weak.Casino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
I do object to it being politicised with the stupid saturation of EU flags in the audience.
It's a British cultural tradition and a national celebration. That means flying your nation's flag together with pride regardless of your political views.0 -
Don't be ridiculous.Foxy said:
Not my cup of tea, but Brexit does pose a threat to many musicians, a group that particularly benefits from Freedom of Movement.Casino_Royale said:
It's nothing to do with Leavers or Remainers. That's your obsession, not mine.Foxy said:
Leavers do not have a monopoly of patriotism. It is good to celebrate the contribution Britain and Europe have made to each others musical culture. Together we are strong, divided we are weak.Casino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
I do object to it being politicised with the stupid saturation of EU flags in the audience.
It's a British cultural tradition and a national celebration. That means flying your nation's flag together with pride regardless of your political views.0 -
If the only tunes allowed are 'the Red Flag', Flower of Scotland' and 'Beethovan's Ninth' you may have a point but until then it remains watchableCasino_Royale said:
Give them time.HYUFD said:
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.0 -
Thanks for the details.oxfordsimon said:
Williams called the Umpire a thiefAndyJS said:What the dickens has been going on at the US Open?
Was penalised a game for Verbal Abuse
She then called in the referee
All got very messy0 -
Now about that massive nationalisation project Jezza.....Scott_P said:0 -
No it doesn’t. Only when enemies like you define what it isHYUFD said:
None of that is really socialism, at most radicalism of the time, even the Tories now support gender equality, the minimum wage, state education until 18, the NHS etc and would not disagree with most of that platform.LordOfReason said:
The lowest stage of humanity is experienced when the individual must labour for a small pittance of wages from others.HYUFD said:LordOfReason said:
We have HY on a oineers calls himself a socialist, this is what you should be thinking of.rpjs said:
The Greater German Reich was ruledt economy to total war needs until far too late.)HYUFD said:
'I often mLordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wingHYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btwDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
To train and educate the rising generation will at all times be the first object of society, to which every other will be subordinate.
Women will be no longer made the slaves of, or dependent upon men ... They will be equal in education, rights, privileges and personal liberty.
The working classes may be injuriously degraded and oppressed in three ways:
1st - When they are neglected in infancy
2nd - When they are overworked by their employer, and are thus rendered incompetent from ignorance to make a good use of high wages when they can procure them.
3rd - When they are paid low wages for their labour
Lenin is not born when a Welsh socialist writes this, whilst Young Marx is gazing up in awe, and forever influenced by right wing philosopher Hegel.
Socialism remains though a philosophy focused on government or collective ownership or management of the means of production
https://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/socialism
The socialism of Owen is Socialism. If as you say some it now adopted by Tories, just shows how ahead of his time Owen was, and successful the socialists getting out there and educating people has since been.
But think of disciples of those words by Owen, the socialists who wanted a democratic parliament, heartbroken when it was burnt down, hunted by the checka, taken to a basement, stripped, and their brains blow out against the wall. How you done them a disservice earlier, when you lumped them all together and ignored the fact this happened.
0 -
The Musicians Union sees several Brexit related threats:Casino_Royale said:
Don't be ridiculous.Foxy said:
Not my cup of tea, but Brexit does pose a threat to many musicians, a group that particularly benefits from Freedom of Movement.Casino_Royale said:
It's nothing to do with Leavers or Remainers. That's your obsession, not mine.Foxy said:
Leavers do not have a monopoly of patriotism. It is good to celebrate the contribution Britain and Europe have made to each others musical culture. Together we are strong, divided we are weak.Casino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
I do object to it being politicised with the stupid saturation of EU flags in the audience.
It's a British cultural tradition and a national celebration. That means flying your nation's flag together with pride regardless of your political views.
https://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Home/Campaign/Brexit
Backed up by this survey of musicians themselves:
https://www.thestage.co.uk/news/2018/musicians-survey-highlights-impact-brexit/0 -
Owen made a fortune as a textile manufacturer and investor essentially as a capitalist, he spent much of his money on starting a utopian community in Indiana which collapsed after 2 years which just about says it allLordOfReason said:
No it doesn’t. Only when enemies like you define what it isHYUFD said:
None of that is really socialism, at most radicalism of the time, even the Tories now support gender equality, the minimureedictionary.com/socialismLordOfReason said:
The lowest stage of humanity is experienced when the individual must labour for a small pittance of wages from others.HYUFD said:LordOfReason said:
We have HY on a oineers calls himself a socialist, this is what you should be thinking of.rpjs said:
The Greater German Reich was ruledt economy to total war needs until far too late.)HYUFD said:
'I often mLordOfReason said:
I often make the argument Marx is pretty right wingHYUFD said:
For Lord of reason I expect anyone right of Marx is a centristbigjohnowls said:
Lord of reason has made me a centrist btwDaddybear said:So you reckon he would beat John Mcdonnell
Why, HY, presume left wing people are Marxists?
To train and educate the rising generation will at all times be the first object of society, to which every other will be subordinate.
Women will be no longer made the slaves of, or dependent upon men ... They will be equal in education, rights, privileges and personal liberty.
The working classes may be injuriously degraded and oppressed in three ways:
1st - When they are neglected in infancy
2nd - When they are overworked by their employer, and are thus rendered incompetent from ignorance to make a good use of high wages when they can procure them.
3rd - When they are paid low wages for their labour
Lenin is not born when a Welsh socialist writes this, whilst Young Marx is gazing up in awe, and forever influenced by right wing philosopher Hegel.
The socialism of Owen is Socialism. If as you say some it now adopted by Tories, just shows how ahead of his time Owen was, and successful the socialists getting out there and educating people has since been.
But think of disciples of those words by Owen, the socialists who wanted a democratic parliament, heartbroken when it was burnt down, hunted by the checka, taken to a basement, stripped, and their brains blow out against the wall. How you done them a disservice earlier, when you lumped them all together and ignored the fact this happened.0 -
" Despicable lack of respect from the American crowd. A deserved victor becomes victim, made to feel like the villain of the piece. The culminating moment of a lifelong dream is snatched out of her hands by partisan petulance, and her opponent's hotheadedness."AndyJS said:
Thanks for the details.oxfordsimon said:
Williams called the Umpire a thiefAndyJS said:What the dickens has been going on at the US Open?
Was penalised a game for Verbal Abuse
She then called in the referee
All got very messy
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/live/tennis/452488990 -
I disagree. Rule Britannia was dialled back for a number of years by previous conductors, and only heard as part of the sea songs, and the BBC are almost embarrassed to show it. They should have drawn a line in the sand with the political flag entry as well, but have done nothing about it.HYUFD said:
If the only tunes allowed are 'the Red Flag', Flower of Scotland' and 'Beethovan's Ninth' you may have a point but until then it remains watchableCasino_Royale said:
Give them time.HYUFD said:
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
You are very dismissive of anyone's views that don't align with your own, which you then try to prove by steering the discussion onto other facts or assertions you feel can't be refuted or rebutted, even if they bear little to no relation to the original point.
I no longer watch it. There are better places in the UK now that better capture its cultural heritage.0 -
I hate being provocative, but Elgar disapproved of the words added to pomp and circumstance. And Blake really is writing about a burnt out mill on his way to the Grocery shop.Casino_Royale said:
Give them time.HYUFD said:
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
Blake also believed, or couldn’t entirely rule out, Jesus visited Britain.
Even now, 2018, with everything I researched on the subject, I wouldn’t rule it out.
0 -
Talented musicians (from around the world) are going to have no problem coming to the UK after Brexit.Foxy said:
The Musicians Union sees several Brexit related threats:Casino_Royale said:
Don't be ridiculous.Foxy said:
Not my cup of tea, but Brexit does pose a threat to many musicians, a group that particularly benefits from Freedom of Movement.Casino_Royale said:
It's nothing to do with Leavers or Remainers. That's your obsession, not mine.Foxy said:
Leavers do not have a monopoly of patriotism. It is good to celebrate the contribution Britain and Europe have made to each others musical culture. Together we are strong, divided we are weak.Casino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
I do object to it being politicised with the stupid saturation of EU flags in the audience.
It's a British cultural tradition and a national celebration. That means flying your nation's flag together with pride regardless of your political views.
https://www.musiciansunion.org.uk/Home/Campaign/Brexit
Backed up by this survey of musicians themselves:
https://www.thestage.co.uk/news/2018/musicians-survey-highlights-impact-brexit/
That wasn't what the vote against the (absolutely unrestricted) right of free movement was about, as you well know. It was about the ability to pull the levers and to choose and control who comes to the UK and how.0 -
Another day, another canvass, at which at a self-confessed literal communist campaigns for Labour. But hey moderates, stick with it, it will all be ok in the end...
https://twitter.com/ShaniaMcMalik/status/10384858368016875520 -
0
-
Boris up to 5.1 from 4.4 this pm.
0 -
He was also of humble origins, self taught, a Roman Catholic, very much an outsider and rather critical of English music. No-one is simple.LordOfReason said:
I hate being provocative, but Elgar disapproved of the words added to pomp and circumstance. And Blake really is writing about a burnt out mill on his way to the Grocery shop.Casino_Royale said:
Give them time.HYUFD said:
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
Blake also believed, or couldn’t entirely rule out, Jesus visited Britain.
Even now, 2018, with everything I researched on the subject, I wouldn’t rule it out.
That still doesn't mean he wasn't a very patriotic man - he was and there was, and isn't, anything wrong with that.0 -
Boris has united Adonis, Tugendhat and Alan Duncan in condemnation. Wow!
https://twitter.com/TomTugendhat/status/10385351104826982400 -
https://twitter.com/PeoplesMomentum/status/1038514290221875203
They realise to compel means to force or oblige right?0 -
I suspect the entire political class (at least those still with a working moral compass) will be joining in the condemnation. And it is thoroughly deserved.rottenborough said:Boris has united Adonis, Tugendhat and Alan Duncan in condemnation. Wow!
0 -
You don’t rule out Jesus visiting Britain? ( Or Blake ruling it out to be fair).LordOfReason said:
I hate being provocative, but Elgar disapproved of the words added to pomp and circumstance. And Blake really is writing about a burnt out mill on his way to the Grocery shop.Casino_Royale said:
Give them time.HYUFD said:
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
Blake also believed, or couldn’t entirely rule out, Jesus visited Britain.
Even now, 2018, with everything I researched on the subject, I wouldn’t rule it out.
Well fair enough. But I don’t rule out being supreme ruler of the universe by Tuesday ( I mean Sunday's a day off, and that gives everyone Monday to do the paperwork, so that’s reasonable).
Did I read something below about Marx being too right wing too?
Righty oh then. That’s all fine.........
0 -
Has he finally blown it?oxfordsimon said:
I suspect the entire political class (at least those still with a working moral compass) will be joining in the condemnation. And it is thoroughly deserved.rottenborough said:Boris has united Adonis, Tugendhat and Alan Duncan in condemnation. Wow!
0 -
Rule Britannia still plays a key role in the Proms and that is a fact, the fact you dislike the Proms now does not change that.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree. Rule Britannia was dialled back for a number of years by previous conductors, and only heard as part of the sea songs, and the BBC are almost embarrassed to show it. They should have drawn a line in the sand with the political flag entry as well, but have done nothing about it.HYUFD said:
If the only tunes allowed are 'the Red Flag', Flower of Scotland' and 'Beethovan's Ninth' you may have a point but until then it remains watchableCasino_Royale said:
Give them time.HYUFD said:
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
You are very dismissive of anyone's views that don't align with your own, which you then try to prove by steering the discussion onto other facts or assertions you feel can't be refuted or rebutted, even if they bear little to no relation to the original point.
I no longer watch it. There are better places in the UK now that better capture its cultural heritage.
I say what I think regardless of what the consensus may be and will continue to do so0 -
Who can tell. It seems impossible to count out anything these days. But I can't see how he can put together a coalition of support to win any contest.rottenborough said:
Has he finally blown it?oxfordsimon said:
I suspect the entire political class (at least those still with a working moral compass) will be joining in the condemnation. And it is thoroughly deserved.rottenborough said:Boris has united Adonis, Tugendhat and Alan Duncan in condemnation. Wow!
0 -
I have friends who were in the audience last night. The flags were being assessed by staff before entry to the auditorium.HYUFD said:
Rule Britannia still plays a key role in the Proms and that is a fact, the fact you dislike the Proms now does not change that.Casino_Royale said:
I disagree. Rule Britannia was dialled back for a number of years by previous conductors, and only heard as part of the sea songs, and the BBC are almost embarrassed to show it. They should have drawn a line in the sand with the political flag entry as well, but have done nothing about it.HYUFD said:
If the only tunes allowed are 'the Red Flag', Flower of Scotland' and 'Beethovan's Ninth' you may have a point but until then it remains watchableCasino_Royale said:
Give them time.HYUFD said:
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
You are very dismissive of anyone's views that don't align with your own, which you then try to prove by steering the discussion onto other facts or assertions you feel can't be refuted or rebutted, even if they bear little to no relation to the original point.
I no longer watch it. There are better places in the UK now that better capture its cultural heritage.
I say what I think regardless of what the consensus may be and will continue to do so
Their Welsh flag was rejected for being too large. Their EU flag was passed fit for display.
I kid you not.0 -
The jingoism of the words he may or may not approved of, for sure as an artist would you like someone without permission painting on top of your work, that’s the version that’s better known? I wasn’t questioning his patriotism at all.Casino_Royale said:
He was also of humble origins, self taught, a Roman Catholic, very much an outsider and rather critical of English music. No-one is simple.LordOfReason said:
I hate being provocative, but Elgar disapproved of the words added to pomp and circumstance. And Blake really is writing about a burnt out mill on his way to the Grocery shop.Casino_Royale said:
Give them time.HYUFD said:
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
Blake also believed, or couldn’t entirely rule out, Jesus visited Britain.
Even now, 2018, with everything I researched on the subject, I wouldn’t rule it out.
That still doesn't mean he wasn't a very patriotic man - he was and there was, and isn't, anything wrong with that.
Another interesting Elgar snippet for your list. He cycled to Wolverhampton to watch the football.0 -
I see Boris has ended his political career meltdown with a bang... Goodnight and get lost.0
-
Seems to me that he has lost his touch. Or maybe Crosby is advising him rather badly.oxfordsimon said:
Who can tell. It seems impossible to count out anything these days. But I can't see how he can put together a coalition of support to win any contest.rottenborough said:
Has he finally blown it?oxfordsimon said:
I suspect the entire political class (at least those still with a working moral compass) will be joining in the condemnation. And it is thoroughly deserved.rottenborough said:Boris has united Adonis, Tugendhat and Alan Duncan in condemnation. Wow!
0 -
In fact the more read-into it, the more plausible it sound.welshowl said:
You don’t rule out Jesus visiting Britain? ( Or Blake ruling it out to be fair).LordOfReason said:
I hate being provocative, but Elgar disapproved of the words added to pomp and circumstance. And Blake really is writing about a burnt out mill on his way to the Grocery shop.Casino_Royale said:
Give them time.HYUFD said:
If it had been totally captured by the liberal left there would be no 'Rule Britannia' and no 'Land of Hope and Glory' though I agree local proms can be just as good, we even have a Proms on the Green in EppingCasino_Royale said:
I don't bother with the Last Night of The Proms anymore.HYUFD said:Finishing with Jerusalem and the National Anthem now
They let any tom, dick or harry in and it's been totally captured by the liberal Left
If you want a proper patriotic music festival now you have to go to the battle proms or proms in the shires.
Blake also believed, or couldn’t entirely rule out, Jesus visited Britain.
Even now, 2018, with everything I researched on the subject, I wouldn’t rule it out.
Well fair enough. But I don’t rule out being supreme ruler of the universe by Tuesday ( I mean Sunday's a day off, and that gives everyone Monday to do the paperwork, so that’s reasonable).
Did I read something below about Marx being too right wing too?
Righty oh then. That’s all fine.........
Proven trade routes. Position in his uncles business. The gap in his life historians know little of, about 15 years.
The trip not as long or arduous in those days as may think.
As well as trade, Learn a bit of the geometry and architecture from builders in the North. Why do people travel on gap year?
A religious, though not orthodox, man, Blake was excited by stories of Jesus in England, handed down by word of mouth here and interestingly same in the Mediterranean.
Christ stopped at Priddy, on the mendips, and took tea with the Druids.
Say you have more than enough Reason for one evening and send me to bed.0 -
A massive jibe at May like this is likely to put the backs up of the fiercely loyal con members out in the shires.
0 -
Doesn't look good.Scrapheap_as_was said:I see Boris has ended his political career meltdown with a bang... Goodnight and get lost.
But he is a survivor.
Who knows.0
This discussion has been closed.