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The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure.matt said:
That thinking is no different, though you wouldn’t admit it, to the thinking which led to wrinkly nihilists with guaranteed pensions voting for Brexit paid for by workers - it was all better in the good old days.Jonathan said:
Sigh. When we were governed by grown ups.rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
I wish we respected that more and paused before we rush in and break it.0 -
Dawlish, running along that coast there, is beautiful. I cycled from Exmouth to Dawlish earlier this year and then caught the train back. Close to a perfect day.Fysics_Teacher said:
I actually went all the way from Paddington and the best bit along the coast (at Dawlishydoethur said:
I've travelled that route as far as Saltash. Stunning run across the Royal Albert Bridge.Fysics_Teacher said:
That means I’ve been on a route that Sunil hasn’t! Plymouth to Penzance last summer.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Cornwall is the only English county I haven't visited by rail* - yet!dixiedean said:
No thanks. I rarely venture outside Northumberland at the very best of times. Normally I go to Berwick, Seahouses, Druridge or Haggerston, but it seems I;ve bee re-booked under the Haltwhistle bypass.Foxy said:
Sell Ryanair, and holiday on the Isle of Wight.dixiedean said:These sunlit uplands aren't like the brochure.
As well as a historic steam railway, there are the old Northern line underground trains on the Ryde Shanklin line, a vintage bus museum, the Roman villa, and Britains first rocket launch site at the Needles. All PB tastes are accounted for!
[* Went to Land's End by car in 1989, and the Eden Project in 2001, though]
I think).0 -
Is there anything by Steve Biko in the revamped Manchester SU ?0
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Mr Jonathan,
"The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure."
The generations that took us in were patriotic but thought they were voting for a free trade area.0 -
I don't think people realise how little "No Deal" is in the UK's interest, leaving aside the very considerable economic damage it will cause. We would be allowing the EU to decide on a case by case basis what sort of basic transactions it would grant us. It would make those ad hoc decisions to its greatest advantage, to its timetable, while putting the greatest pressure on us to return to the negotiating table on isi agenda.
All of Brexit is backwards but that's extreme.0 -
tbh I'm not really worried that France will start building invasion barges next April. That said, it may be a factor that unlike the rest of the continent, we have not lived under a fascist or communist dictatorship or been invaded within living memory (pace the Channel Islands) so we do not sentimentalise the EU as a bastion against those things.Jonathan said:
The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure.matt said:
That thinking is no different, though you wouldn’t admit it, to the thinking which led to wrinkly nihilists with guaranteed pensions voting for Brexit paid for by workers - it was all better in the good old days.Jonathan said:
Sigh. When we were governed by grown ups.rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
I wish we respected that more and paused before we rush in and break it.0 -
It does seem to finally be dawning on Brussels that no deal is a very real possibility.Nigelb said:We can all forget about it for a couple of months.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/18/eu-assault-on-mays-white-paper-heightens-no-deal-brexit-fears
Both UK and Brussels sources suggested that an informal summit in Salzburg in September was now likely to be a crunch moment when EU leaders have a chance to take the lead and instruct Barnier to take a more flexible approach, or send the UK back to the drawing board.
Either way, agreement on the withdrawal deal, and the basis of a trade deal through a political declaration, by the European council summit at the end of October, is regarded as highly unlikely. It is understood that an emergency summit is being pencilled in for early November...
Aside from planning for a no deal Brexit...
And that Barnier might be costing them forty billion.
18 months late, but they are finally getting it. So now we might start getting somewhere.0 -
Caught up on your housing videos - both very informative and engaging.rcs1000 said:
The Single Market made London Europe's capital. And so, if you bought a flat in London, in 1995, it made you a rich man (or woman).
But it also changed the nature of towns and villages even far from the capital. And - by and large - not to the liking of their inhabitants. It also priced a generation of twenty somethings out of a city they grew up in.
I like the boldness of your London housing crash prediction, but didn't quite follow why you think it is going to happen in the next 5 years. The demographics will take time to have an impact.0 -
You mean there was a train out of there almost immediately?Sunil_Prasannan said:Scarborough, Saltburn, Cleethorpes, Llandudno, Berwick, Aberystwyth, Cardiff Bay, Weymouth, Portsmouth, and Eastbourne were all pleasant surprises when I got off the train
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Your playing of the WW2 card is no different to the other side - an appeal to a form of patriotism that appeals to you. We have, we always have, the politicians that we, the public, deserve.Jonathan said:
The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure.matt said:
That thinking is no different, though you wouldn’t admit it, to the thinking which led to wrinkly nihilists with guaranteed pensions voting for Brexit paid for by workers - it was all better in the good old days.Jonathan said:
Sigh. When we were governed by grown ups.rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
I wish we respected that more and paused before we rush in and break it.0 -
They didn’t worry about invasion either. But they did know about the value of cooperation and that sovereignty was a myth.DecrepitJohnL said:
tbh I'm not really worried that France will start building invasion barges next April. That said, it may be a factor that unlike the rest of the continent, we have not lived under a fascist or communist dictatorship or been invaded within living memory (pace the Channel Islands) so we do not sentimentalise the EU as a bastion against those things.Jonathan said:
The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure.matt said:
That thinking is no different, though you wouldn’t admit it, to the thinking which led to wrinkly nihilists with guaranteed pensions voting for Brexit paid for by workers - it was all better in the good old days.Jonathan said:
Sigh. When we were governed by grown ups.rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
I wish we respected that more and paused before we rush in and break it.
They did worry about the very real and present failure when Britain thought it could go it alone.0 -
I think Ireland, Switzerland and Sweden would dispute 'the rest of the continent.' That said, the gist of your comment is correct.DecrepitJohnL said:
tbh I'm not really worried that France will start building invasion barges next April. That said, it may be a factor that unlike the rest of the continent, we have not lived under a fascist or communist dictatorship or been invaded within living memory (pace the Channel Islands) so we do not sentimentalise the EU as a bastion against those things.Jonathan said:
The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure.matt said:
That thinking is no different, though you wouldn’t admit it, to the thinking which led to wrinkly nihilists with guaranteed pensions voting for Brexit paid for by workers - it was all better in the good old days.Jonathan said:
Sigh. When we were governed by grown ups.rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
I wish we respected that more and paused before we rush in and break it.
It may also explain why the EU are obsessed with processes, courts, written declarations etc while we tend to believe in making it up as we go.
It's strange, given that Hitler's power ultimately derived from the Weimar constitution (Article 48) whereas Mosley would have had to keep Parliament onside which would have been much more difficult, but doesn't mean it isn't there.0 -
Ferfuxsake.
I remember when PB Leavers were hailing this as an awesome move.
https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1019842468764946432
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Not playing a card, just wish we listened to voices from the past and learned lessons from them rather than indulging in a form of jingoistic nostalgia that avoids any complexity.matt said:
Your playing of the WW2 card is no different to the other side - an appeal to a form of patriotism that appeals to you. We have, we always have, the politicians that we, the public, deserve.Jonathan said:
The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure.matt said:
That thinking is no different, though you wouldn’t admit it, to the thinking which led to wrinkly nihilists with guaranteed pensions voting for Brexit paid for by workers - it was all better in the good old days.Jonathan said:
Sigh. When we were governed by grown ups.rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
I wish we respected that more and paused before we rush in and break it.
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That is as pointless an argument as trying to argue if a party wins a general election we ignore its manifesto as people were just voting for the party name.Nigelb said:
‘The Leave capmpaign’, forsooth.HYUFD said:
The Leave campaign made clear we would regain control of our borders and our laws, which prohibited membership of the single market as now and also that we would do our own trade deals, which prohibited membership of the Customs Unionrottenborough said:
No idea what date, but I am pretty sure Dan Hannan said this.Philip_Thompson said:
Do you? Please say who by and on what date during the referendum campaign that was said.rottenborough said:
wtf is 'proper leave'? I seem to recall we were told nobody in their right mind was talking about not being in a customs union or Thatcher's single market.Philip_Thompson said:
Hardly a surprise to see you pimping out UKIP. Its funny when you call other people not proper Tories because they believe in something different to you but you've always seemed like a Kipper and are prepared to push them like this. Funny that.HYUFD said:
https://twitter.com/iandunt/status/799282286185222145?lang=en
Were we voting for their manifesto ?
Or answering a very simple question capable of multiple interpretations, as the Hannan quote nicely demonstrates ?
Vote Leave was the official Leave campaign and committed to regaining control of our borders and our laws and doing trade deals with the rest of the world0 -
Hmm, this has made it even harder for the government to win future votes, especially if the House of Lords engage in some wiff waff. Won't be surprising to see the opposition parties failing to engage in pairing going forward.
The government seems to be obsessed with short term tactics not a long term strategy.
Julian Smith, the chief whip, urged three Tory MPs to abandon “pairing” arrangements before a knife-edge vote on Tuesday, it has been claimed.
Pairing is a parliamentary convention by which pairs of MPs on different sides of the Commons agree not to vote so that an absence such as maternity leave does not count against a member.
Mr Smith summoned Brandon Lewis, the Tory chairman, from a meeting to parliament as a crunch vote on customs approached, witnesses claim.
The chief whip is understood to have told Mr Lewis that the later votes were going to be close and he needed him to vote. This breached the pairing deal with Jo Swinson, the Liberal Democrat MP who is on maternity leave.
The Times has been told of two other Tory MPs told by Mr Smith that they should vote on Tuesday despite being paired. Both sought further advice and ignored the instruction. The Tory whips’ office did not comment.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/10198211078331351040 -
Department of Transport preparing to issue millions of permits to UK drivers to drive on EU roads if mutual recognition of licenses is not agreed with the EU
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-448810580 -
Mr. Eagles, it's a very unwelcome move on the pairing front. And counterproductive too. Like May threatening to remove ministerial cars immediately, or pre-empting Boris' resignation announcement.
Short term tactical gains for long term disadvantage.
*sighs*0 -
In 1975, we voted on circumstances then.
When Tony Benn fretted about becoming a European state, he was laughed at. France never really wanted us in and Heath had endured embarrassing snubs.
It was called the Common Market, and it was 'marketed' as a free trade area. What was not to like?
A few clever clogs claim they knew the cunning plan all along, but at least they were there.
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Pre-empting the resignation of Boris was the right thing to do. She had a statement to make to the House and Boris could have resigned during the statement totally shafting the government.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, it's a very unwelcome move on the pairing front. And counterproductive too. Like May threatening to remove ministerial cars immediately, or pre-empting Boris' resignation announcement.
Short term tactical gains for long term disadvantage.
*sighs*
The numpty had missed a COBRA meeting which was dealing with the murder of a British citizen by Russia and he also missed an important meeting on the Balkans which made the UK look pathetic.
Mrs May should have fired him for being unfit for being Foreign Secretary rather than letting him resign.0 -
It has a link to the original white paper here:rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
https://www.cvce.eu/en/obj/white_paper_presented_by_the_uk_government_to_the_uk_parliament_july_1971-en-8cf072cb-5a31-46f6-b04f-cb866be92f72.html
Interesting to see the stats on the decline of trade with the Commonwealth and rise of trade with the EEC for the decade of the Sixties, and paragraph 143 on free movement of Labour seen in context.
If only Leave had produced such a document, rather than the pig in a poke that we were sold.0 -
I think there's no doubt that the calibre of politicians in the Sixties, Seventies, and Eighties was a good deal higher than it is now. Eg watch the Oxford Union debate at the time of the EU referendum.Jonathan said:
They didn’t worry about invasion either. But they did know about the value of cooperation and that sovereignty was a myth.DecrepitJohnL said:
tbh I'm not really worried that France will start building invasion barges next April. That said, it may be a factor that unlike the rest of the continent, we have not lived under a fascist or communist dictatorship or been invaded within living memory (pace the Channel Islands) so we do not sentimentalise the EU as a bastion against those things.Jonathan said:
The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure.matt said:
That thinking is no different, though you wouldn’t admit it, to the thinking which led to wrinkly nihilists with guaranteed pensions voting for Brexit paid for by workers - it was all better in the good old days.Jonathan said:
Sigh. When we were governed by grown ups.rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
I wish we respected that more and paused before we rush in and break it.
They did worry about the very real and present failure when Britain thought it could go it alone.
Which makes it all the odder that there was a perpetual crisis in government for much of that time.0 -
She should not have fired him, she should never have appointed him. Party Chairman was the right role for him, anything else and he was out of his depth.TheScreamingEagles said:
Pre-empting the resignation of Boris was the right thing to do. She had a statement to make to the House and Boris could have resigned during the statement totally shafting the government.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, it's a very unwelcome move on the pairing front. And counterproductive too. Like May threatening to remove ministerial cars immediately, or pre-empting Boris' resignation announcement.
Short term tactical gains for long term disadvantage.
*sighs*
The numpty had missed a COBRA meeting which was dealing with the murder of a British citizen by Russia and he also missed an important meeting on the Balkans which made the UK look pathetic.
Mrs May should have fired him for being unfit for being Foreign Secretary rather than letting him resign.0 -
Mr. Eagles, agree he should've been fired for missing that meeting.
Mr. Doethur, quite. Was never fit to be Foreign Secretary.0 -
Sorry, the generation that fought ww2 thought sovereignty was a myth?Jonathan said:
They didn’t worry about invasion either. But they did know about the value of cooperation and that sovereignty was a myth.DecrepitJohnL said:
tbh I'm not really worried that France will start building invasion barges next April. That said, it may be a factor that unlike the rest of the continent, we have not lived under a fascist or communist dictatorship or been invaded within living memory (pace the Channel Islands) so we do not sentimentalise the EU as a bastion against those things.Jonathan said:
The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure.matt said:
That thinking is no different, though you wouldn’t admit it, to the thinking which led to wrinkly nihilists with guaranteed pensions voting for Brexit paid for by workers - it was all better in the good old days.Jonathan said:
Sigh. When we were governed by grown ups.rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
I wish we respected that more and paused before we rush in and break it.
They did worry about the very real and present failure when Britain thought it could go it alone.
I don't think loopy ahistoricism really helps anyone. You might as well claim that they are the generation that taught the Ruhr why the uk needs unfettered access to eu airspace.0 -
I’m on the 741 from Penzance to Plymouth right now. The run around Mounts Bay and the Hayle estuary is beautiful as is the whole approach to the Tamar, but the novelty does wear off a bit after a while when you’re looking at over 3 hours to cover the 100 miles to Exeter. We could really do with a proper (and weather-proof) railway here.Fysics_Teacher said:
That means I’ve been on a route that Sunil hasn’t! Plymouth to Penzance last summer.Sunil_Prasannan said:
Cornwall is the only English county I haven't visited by rail* - yet!dixiedean said:
No thanks. I rarely venture outside Northumberland at the very best of times. Normally I go to Berwick, Seahouses, Druridge or Haggerston, but it seems I;ve bee re-booked under the Haltwhistle bypass.Foxy said:
Sell Ryanair, and holiday on the Isle of Wight.dixiedean said:These sunlit uplands aren't like the brochure.
As well as a historic steam railway, there are the old Northern line underground trains on the Ryde Shanklin line, a vintage bus museum, the Roman villa, and Britains first rocket launch site at the Needles. All PB tastes are accounted for!
[* Went to Land's End by car in 1989, and the Eden Project in 2001, though]0 -
Napoleonic codes come into it too. But "making it up as we go" turns out to be a pretty robust and satisfactory way to run our affairs, with institutions that have been created and adapted over time. From the outside it may appear shambolic but we know it works.ydoethur said:
...
It may also explain why the EU are obsessed with processes, courts, written declarations etc while we tend to believe in making it up as we go.
...
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It would be interesting to see how they would have coped with the 24 hour news channels, twitter, blogs etcSean_F said:
I think there's no doubt that the calibre of politicians in the Sixties, Seventies, and Eighties was a good deal higher than it is now. Eg watch the Oxford Union debate at the time of the EU referendum.Jonathan said:
They didn’t worry about invasion either. But they did know about the value of cooperation and that sovereignty was a myth.DecrepitJohnL said:
tbh I'm not really worried that France will start building invasion barges next April. That said, it may be a factor that unlike the rest of the continent, we have not lived under a fascist or communist dictatorship or been invaded within living memory (pace the Channel Islands) so we do not sentimentalise the EU as a bastion against those things.Jonathan said:
The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure.matt said:
That thinking is no different, though you wouldn’t admit it, to the thinking which led to wrinkly nihilists with guaranteed pensions voting for Brexit paid for by workers - it was all better in the good old days.Jonathan said:
Sigh. When we were governed by grown ups.rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
I wish we respected that more and paused before we rush in and break it.
They did worry about the very real and present failure when Britain thought it could go it alone.
Which makes it all the odder that there was a perpetual crisis in government for much of that time.0 -
Was Tony Benn laughed at for his concerns? The Seventies debates that I have seen on Youtube were very serious and thoughtful, not the debased slanging matches of modern times.CD13 said:In 1975, we voted on circumstances then.
When Tony Benn fretted about becoming a European state, he was laughed at. France never really wanted us in and Heath had endured embarrassing snubs.
It was called the Common Market, and it was 'marketed' as a free trade area. What was not to like?
A few clever clogs claim they knew the cunning plan all along, but at least they were there.0 -
What a shocking piece of revisionism history here by Zoe Williams in The Guardian.
You could make the case that there is no endemic sexism here, since men have faced pairing crises in worse circumstances. For example, in 1979, Sir Alfred Broughton had a terminal illness when he was stiffed by his Tory opposite, Bernard Weatherill, in a vote of no confidence against the then Labour prime minister James Callaghan. The government collapsed and Broughton died five days later.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/18/the-cheating-of-jo-swinson-has-exposed-the-uk-parliaments-rotten-core0 -
Mr. Eagles, isn't Williams the same person who claimed there is a magic money tree because we can just print more, and also refused to condemn the spitting on delegates to a Conservative Party conference?0
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This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=210 -
Vince on R4 - was at a “confidential political meeting”....0
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The C20 is a damn good lesson in that however hard you might try, you cannot go it alone and however hard you resist you will be dependent on others and your future will be determined by events elsewhere.Ishmael_Z said:
Sorry, the generation that fought ww2 thought sovereignty was a myth?Jonathan said:
They didn’t worry about invasion either. But they did know about the value of cooperation and that sovereignty was a myth.DecrepitJohnL said:
tbh I'm not really worried that France will start building invasion barges next April. That said, it may be a factor that unlike the rest of the continent, we have not lived under a fascist or communist dictatorship or been invaded within living memory (pace the Channel Islands) so we do not sentimentalise the EU as a bastion against those things.Jonathan said:
The generation that took us in was the generation that had fought on the front line and knew the costs of failure.matt said:
That thinking is no different, though you wouldn’t admit it, to the thinking which led to wrinkly nihilists with guaranteed pensions voting for Brexit paid for by workers - it was all better in the good old days.Jonathan said:
Sigh. When we were governed by grown ups.rkrkrk said:Cool fact (if it's true) in an article from Fintan O'Toole:
Apparently the White Paper on joining the Common Market is the best-selling official document in British history. Sold over a million copies which is actually quite staggering when you think about it.
https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/fintan-o-toole-brexit-white-paper-puts-uk-on-road-to-nowhere-1.3566782#.W02E1ssOadg.twitter
I wish we respected that more and paused before we rush in and break it.
They did worry about the very real and present failure when Britain thought it could go it alone.
I don't think loopy ahistoricism really helps anyone. You might as well claim that they are the generation that taught the Ruhr why the uk needs unfettered access to eu airspace.0 -
There is zero excuse for not doing an absolutely perfect job on it. Pathetic.TheScreamingEagles said:Ferfuxsake.
I remember when PB Leavers were hailing this as an awesome move.
https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/10198424687649464320 -
The Guardian really is going downhill. When it gets wrong things that Wikipedia gets right, it's all over.TheScreamingEagles said:What a shocking piece of revisionism history here by Zoe Williams in The Guardian.
You could make the case that there is no endemic sexism here, since men have faced pairing crises in worse circumstances. For example, in 1979, Sir Alfred Broughton had a terminal illness when he was stiffed by his Tory opposite, Bernard Weatherill, in a vote of no confidence against the then Labour prime minister James Callaghan. The government collapsed and Broughton died five days later.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/jul/18/the-cheating-of-jo-swinson-has-exposed-the-uk-parliaments-rotten-core
Edit - and she doesn't even have the courage to allow comments. Afraid they'll show up her error?0 -
That is what they want, yes. It's good we will actually be told now. I'm not sure when hard brexit became the same as no deal, but bad as it may be it is by far the most likely outcome so about time they prepared even if it will be called scare tactics.The_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=210 -
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.0 -
The Tory Chief Whip seems to be rather slippery - not to be trusted.0
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Quatremer Juncker article in the Speccie:
The atmosphere in Brussels has become, of late, reminiscent of the late Brezhnev era. We have a political system run by a bureaucratic apparatus which — just like the former USSR — serves to conceal important evidence. Especially when it comes to the health of its supreme leader, Jean-Claude Juncker.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/jean-claude-drunker/amp/?__twitter_impression=true0 -
Maybe this is Mrs May's cunning plan to drive people back to her deal?TheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.0 -
No, it's what a responsible government of any persuasion, faced with the objective prospect of a hard brexit, has to do. And it looks a bit too little too late; it suggests, if you think about it, that we have fewer than 70 industries which will be distinctively affected.The_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=210 -
Jemma Apples Theresa May et c'est mon [insert translation for Brexit white paper in German here]Dura_Ace said:
There is zero excuse for not doing an absolutely perfect job on it. Pathetic.TheScreamingEagles said:Ferfuxsake.
I remember when PB Leavers were hailing this as an awesome move.
https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/10198424687649464320 -
He's just taking after Walter Harrison.justin124 said:The Tory Chief Whip seems to be rather slippery - not to be trusted.
0 -
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.0 -
This story effectively confirms Mr Lewis's dishonesty. Unless he is asking us to believe there was a remarkable coincidence in timing with his "honest mistake" occurring at exactly the same time as the whips were leaning on paired MPs...TheScreamingEagles said:Hmm, this has made it even harder for the government to win future votes, especially if the House of Lords engage in some wiff waff. Won't be surprising to see the opposition parties failing to engage in pairing going forward.
The government seems to be obsessed with short term tactics not a long term strategy.
Julian Smith, the chief whip, urged three Tory MPs to abandon “pairing” arrangements before a knife-edge vote on Tuesday, it has been claimed.
Pairing is a parliamentary convention by which pairs of MPs on different sides of the Commons agree not to vote so that an absence such as maternity leave does not count against a member.
Mr Smith summoned Brandon Lewis, the Tory chairman, from a meeting to parliament as a crunch vote on customs approached, witnesses claim.
The chief whip is understood to have told Mr Lewis that the later votes were going to be close and he needed him to vote. This breached the pairing deal with Jo Swinson, the Liberal Democrat MP who is on maternity leave.
The Times has been told of two other Tory MPs told by Mr Smith that they should vote on Tuesday despite being paired. Both sought further advice and ignored the instruction. The Tory whips’ office did not comment.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/10198211078331351040 -
Almost. I think it's just case of the most committed on either side are going all or nothing, which is why we are being bounced into no deal or remaining, since the ones who go with the flow aren't supportive enough to stick their necks out for a deal.TheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
Talk of yet more 'crunch' meetings in September seem like a waste of time. From the EU perspective the only benefit seems to be to see if the government collapses over the summer.0 -
L'état, çest May?TheScreamingEagles said:
Jemma Apples Theresa May et c'est mon [insert translation for Brexit white paper in German here]Dura_Ace said:
There is zero excuse for not doing an absolutely perfect job on it. Pathetic.TheScreamingEagles said:Ferfuxsake.
I remember when PB Leavers were hailing this as an awesome move.
https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/10198424687649464320 -
Did he renege on pairing arrangements?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's just taking after Walter Harrison.justin124 said:The Tory Chief Whip seems to be rather slippery - not to be trusted.
0 -
Well, he has made one honest mistake.IanB2 said:
This story effectively confirms Mr Lewis's dishonesty. Unless he is asking us to believe there was a remarkable coincidence in timing with his "honest mistake" occurring at exactly the same time as the whips were leaning on paired MPs...TheScreamingEagles said:Hmm, this has made it even harder for the government to win future votes, especially if the House of Lords engage in some wiff waff. Won't be surprising to see the opposition parties failing to engage in pairing going forward.
The government seems to be obsessed with short term tactics not a long term strategy.
Julian Smith, the chief whip, urged three Tory MPs to abandon “pairing” arrangements before a knife-edge vote on Tuesday, it has been claimed.
Pairing is a parliamentary convention by which pairs of MPs on different sides of the Commons agree not to vote so that an absence such as maternity leave does not count against a member.
Mr Smith summoned Brandon Lewis, the Tory chairman, from a meeting to parliament as a crunch vote on customs approached, witnesses claim.
The chief whip is understood to have told Mr Lewis that the later votes were going to be close and he needed him to vote. This breached the pairing deal with Jo Swinson, the Liberal Democrat MP who is on maternity leave.
The Times has been told of two other Tory MPs told by Mr Smith that they should vote on Tuesday despite being paired. Both sought further advice and ignored the instruction. The Tory whips’ office did not comment.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1019821107833135104
That is to say, he has made a mistake in trying to pretend he's been honest.0 -
Won't work. No deal supporters will call it scare tactics, remain supporters will harden position, and the rest will split along those lines since the deal itself is still seen as crap.IanB2 said:
Maybe this is Mrs May's cunning plan to drive people back to her deal?TheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.0 -
Clearly Swinson misheard Would for Wouldn’tydoethur said:
Well, he has made one honest mistake.IanB2 said:
This story effectively confirms Mr Lewis's dishonesty. Unless he is asking us to believe there was a remarkable coincidence in timing with his "honest mistake" occurring at exactly the same time as the whips were leaning on paired MPs...TheScreamingEagles said:Hmm, this has made it even harder for the government to win future votes, especially if the House of Lords engage in some wiff waff. Won't be surprising to see the opposition parties failing to engage in pairing going forward.
The government seems to be obsessed with short term tactics not a long term strategy.
Julian Smith, the chief whip, urged three Tory MPs to abandon “pairing” arrangements before a knife-edge vote on Tuesday, it has been claimed.
Pairing is a parliamentary convention by which pairs of MPs on different sides of the Commons agree not to vote so that an absence such as maternity leave does not count against a member.
Mr Smith summoned Brandon Lewis, the Tory chairman, from a meeting to parliament as a crunch vote on customs approached, witnesses claim.
The chief whip is understood to have told Mr Lewis that the later votes were going to be close and he needed him to vote. This breached the pairing deal with Jo Swinson, the Liberal Democrat MP who is on maternity leave.
The Times has been told of two other Tory MPs told by Mr Smith that they should vote on Tuesday despite being paired. Both sought further advice and ignored the instruction. The Tory whips’ office did not comment.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/1019821107833135104
That is to say, he has made a mistake in trying to pretend he's been honest.
0 -
No deal is very very likely now. All sides seem to agree that whether one thinks no deal would be a disaster or ok we should have prepared sooner just in case. So surely they should be doing this?The_Apocalypse said:
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When o surgeThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.0 -
So Brandon Lewis and Julian Smith both acted dishonourably.0
-
I think honour went out with Lord Carrington. Per Game of Thrones, it wasn't simply dishonourable but stupid too. Governments with wafer-thin majorities are always tempted to break pairing (and their opposition should be keen too, for obvious reasons), but it's going to come back and haunt them.justin124 said:So Brandon Lewis and Julian Smith both acted dishonourably.
0 -
This pairing thing is a disaster for a government with no majority. No one will trust them again on pairing for a close vote and may well attempt the same trick the other way. With ministers likely to be away on business more than opposition - May could be sunk on some key votes.0
-
A potential defence would be that confidence or de facto confidence motions are by tradition not paired. That is where the aforementioned Wetherill case came in. Wetherill was a Tory whip at the time of the MoNC in Callaghan's government and was asked by his opposite number (Walter Harrison) to find a pair for Alfred Broughton. Wetherill replied that although he had undertaken to pair Broughton, it wouldn't be possible to find someone willing to abstain on a confidence vote. However, being a man of honour, he offered to abstain himself. Harrison, while touched, felt that would be going too far (as it would have wrecked Wetherill's career and potentially cost him his seat) and turned down his offer.Jonathan said:
Clearly Swinson misheard Would for Wouldn’t
But Lewis hasn't tried that, he's just lied and looks like both a liar and a complete idiot in consequence.0 -
They can't win; if they don't, we're unprepared, if they do, people think the sky is falling.The_Apocalypse said:
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.0 -
Utterly ridiculous. We should apply to extend A50, admitting to the EU we are not ready and had not thought through what leaving means.kle4 said:
No deal is very very likely now. All sides seem to agree that whether one thinks no deal would be a disaster or ok we should have prepared sooner just in case. So surely they should be doing this?The_Apocalypse said:
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When o surgeThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.0 -
He did.justin124 said:
Did he renege on pairing arrangements?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's just taking after Walter Harrison.justin124 said:The Tory Chief Whip seems to be rather slippery - not to be trusted.
1976, the Labour government won by 1 vote when the Labour MP Tom Pendry voted when he was supposed to be paired. Michael Heseltine was so incensed he grabbed the mace.
He also did this on a few occasions.
Famously, he provided disguises so that Labour MPs could vote twice in a division.0 -
I fail to see the logic in this tactic. Either it wasn't needed, as it turned out, and the Govt gets a lot of flack for breaking trust and potentially runs into trouble later as a consequence, or it is needed and a vote is won illegitimately and presumably all hell would have then broken loose with potentially earth shattering consequences.IanB2 said:
This story effectively confirms Mr Lewis's dishonesty. Unless he is asking us to believe there was a remarkable coincidence in timing with his "honest mistake" occurring at exactly the same time as the whips were leaning on paired MPs...TheScreamingEagles said:Hmm, this has made it even harder for the government to win future votes, especially if the House of Lords engage in some wiff waff. Won't be surprising to see the opposition parties failing to engage in pairing going forward.
The government seems to be obsessed with short term tactics not a long term strategy.
Julian Smith, the chief whip, urged three Tory MPs to abandon “pairing” arrangements before a knife-edge vote on Tuesday, it has been claimed.
Pairing is a parliamentary convention by which pairs of MPs on different sides of the Commons agree not to vote so that an absence such as maternity leave does not count against a member.
Mr Smith summoned Brandon Lewis, the Tory chairman, from a meeting to parliament as a crunch vote on customs approached, witnesses claim.
The chief whip is understood to have told Mr Lewis that the later votes were going to be close and he needed him to vote. This breached the pairing deal with Jo Swinson, the Liberal Democrat MP who is on maternity leave.
The Times has been told of two other Tory MPs told by Mr Smith that they should vote on Tuesday despite being paired. Both sought further advice and ignored the instruction. The Tory whips’ office did not comment.
https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/10198211078331351040 -
I confess I thought pairing was a dying practice (I have a vague recollection of NickPalmer saying it wasn't always done anymore, but I may be mistaken) but it was clearly counter productive. This government really does just focus on hour by hour survival, but to what purpose if the lay land mines in their own path?John_M said:
I think honour went out with Lord Carrington. Per Game of Thrones, it wasn't simply dishonourable but stupid too. Governments with wafer-thin majorities are always tempted to break pairing (and their opposition should be keen too, for obvious reasons), but it's going to come back and haunt them.justin124 said:So Brandon Lewis and Julian Smith both acted dishonourably.
0 -
Not sure how well the scare tactics/project fear line will work once the government is giving specific, concrete advice on preparations that business will need to make to follow actual processes set out in law/regulations and debating which bits of Kent to compulsorily purchase. There’s a tension for the Brexiters in insisting that we have to be serious about no-deal and then trying to argue that any specific unpopular instance of no-deal preparation is unnecessary. Of course you’ll get Owen Patterson and IDS defending the incomprehensible but they are likely to end up on the other side of the argument from cabinet Brexiters like Gove and Raab which will weaken the message.kle4 said:
Won't work. No deal supporters will call it scare tactics, remain supporters will harden position, and the rest will split along those lines since the deal itself is still seen as crap.IanB2 said:
Maybe this is Mrs May's cunning plan to drive people back to her deal?TheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.0 -
If you've ever watched the play This House you'll always have a soft spot for Walter Harrison, Bob Mellish, Michael Cocks, and the rest of the Labour whips from 1974 to 1979.0
-
I’m referring to them appeasing Hard Brexiteers to such an extent that they have to put out technical notices like this. I don’t need to spend months worrying about food rationing or whether I’ll be able to get necessary medicationkle4 said:
No deal is very very likely now. All sides seem to agree that whether one thinks no deal would be a disaster or ok we should have prepared sooner just in case. So surely they should be doing this?The_Apocalypse said:
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When o surgeThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
0 -
So, let's recap the leading figures of the Leave campaign:
Boris: resigned, no longer prepared to do the day-to-day work of Brexit. Has no plan other than doesn't want what anyone else suggests.
Gove: Still in government, for now. At least seems able to grasp what a f up they have made.
Gisela Steward: left politics, seems to be running a choir in Birmingham.
Davis: Resigned, no plan for how to get out of the mess. Probably no idea how they got into the mess in the first place.
So, other than Gove, they have departed the scene to let someone else clear up their mess.
Nice.0 -
Once we get our Protect and Survive pamphlets I can't believe that any but the nuttier Brex-o-loons will say: but this wasn't on p.5 of the Vote Leave
cataloguemanifesto.
I suppose the big advice will be to switch on the radio on 29th March and see if the Today Programme is on air.0 -
But the reason (one of them)that won't happen and why no deal will is there are not the MP numbers to back it.rottenborough said:
Utterly ridiculous. We should apply to extend A50, admitting to the EU we are not ready and had not thought through what leaving means.kle4 said:
No deal is very very likely now. All sides seem to agree that whether one thinks no deal would be a disaster or ok we should have prepared sooner just in case. So surely they should be doing this?The_Apocalypse said:
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When o surgeThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
I don't think no deal will prove popular even though plenty say they prefer it, and I certainly don't think a majority of mps want it. Problem is it is the only viable outcome. The tory no dealers will prevent a deal (admittedly the EU might reject in anyway) and labour won't rescue a tory proposed deal.
No deal follows. We get told now of predicted outcomes and being scared by that is better than not being scared, if it proves right.0 -
Michael Cocks was of course one among many Cocks elected to the House in the twentieth century.TheScreamingEagles said:If you've ever watched the play This House you'll always have a soft spot for Walter Harrison, Bob Mellish, Michael Cocks, and the rest of the Labour whips from 1974 to 1979.
He did not however boast such a fine name as this upstanding gentleman.0 -
Unless Lewis acted in good faith having (for example) been told by Smith that he was no longer Swinson’s pair due to another Tory being absent. As I understand it, that happens fairly often where there aren’t similarly long-term absentees on both sides to pair against each other. It does place him in the difficult situation of choosing between admitting that he knowlingly broke a pairing arrangement, and lied about it afterwards, or having to accuse the chief whip of lying to him.justin124 said:So Brandon Lewis and Julian Smith both acted dishonourably.
Or alternatively the whole story is untrue and was planted by one of the many Tory party factions who have an interest in undermining May’s leadership and whipping operation in order to advance the leadership prospects of another ambitious candidate.0 -
Indeed. The government has been hugely incompetent, but finally doing this is not unreasonable given where we areJohn_M said:
They can't win; if they don't, we're unprepared, if they do, people think the sky is falling.The_Apocalypse said:
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.0 -
A predecessor of Dr Palmer.ydoethur said:
Michael Cocks was of course one among many Cocks elected to the House in the twentieth century.TheScreamingEagles said:If you've ever watched the play This House you'll always have a soft spot for Walter Harrison, Bob Mellish, Michael Cocks, and the rest of the Labour whips from 1974 to 1979.
He did not however boast such a fine name as this upstanding gentleman.
If you thought I had fun with the name of Ed Balls can you imagine what I would have been like with Seymour Cocks.0 -
They cannot get their deal through. Therefore they bend to those who yell the loudest . We also still need to do it since the EU seemed likely to reject the deal anyway.The_Apocalypse said:
I’m referring to them appeasing Hard Brexiteers to such an extent that they have to put out technical notices like this. I don’t need to spend months worrying about food rationing or whether I’ll be able to get necessary medicationkle4 said:
No deal is very very likely now. All sides seem to agree that whether one thinks no deal would be a disaster or ok we should have prepared sooner just in case. So surely they should be doing this?The_Apocalypse said:
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When o surgeThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
If we're lucky maybe it'll conVince people a deal is good to get us over the line. But I doubt it. Many won't believe it and as per May's deal many remainers may believe it but prefer to not back a deal either.
That sucks, but you should be worrying, and appeasing the hard brexit backers is only part of it - they've increased the chance of no deal but there was already a decent chance of it.-1 -
Some of the translation 'mistakes' seem quite apposite:Dura_Ace said:
There is zero excuse for not doing an absolutely perfect job on it. Pathetic.TheScreamingEagles said:Ferfuxsake.
I remember when PB Leavers were hailing this as an awesome move.
https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1019842468764946432
One Welsh speaker told EURACTIV that the Welsh version uses the word ‘cenhadaeth’ to denote the mission of an organisation but pointed out that another meaning of ‘cenhadaeth’ is ‘religious evangelism’....
Misspelling the names of countries perhaps less so.0 -
The latter would surely have breached Commons Rules and those responsible would/should have been sanctioned.TheScreamingEagles said:
He did.justin124 said:
Did he renege on pairing arrangements?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's just taking after Walter Harrison.justin124 said:The Tory Chief Whip seems to be rather slippery - not to be trusted.
1976, the Labour government won by 1 vote when the Labour MP Tom Pendry voted when he was supposed to be paired. Michael Heseltine was so incensed he grabbed the mace.
He also did this on a few occasions.
Famously, he provided disguises so that Labour MPs could vote twice in a division.0 -
It could, out of context, sound like an instruction to a lazy prostitute.TheScreamingEagles said:
A predecessor Dr Palmer.ydoethur said:
Michael Cocks was of course one among many Cocks elected to the House in the twentieth century.TheScreamingEagles said:If you've ever watched the play This House you'll always have a soft spot for Walter Harrison, Bob Mellish, Michael Cocks, and the rest of the Labour whips from 1974 to 1979.
He did not however boast such a fine name as this upstanding gentleman.
If you thought I had fun with the name of Ed Balls can you imagine what I would have been like with Seymour Cocks.
Or alternatively, in context a command from a whip to vote more often with his fellow MPs.0 -
Seems about the way of it.rottenborough said:So, let's recap the leading figures of the Leave campaign:
Boris: resigned, no longer prepared to do the day-to-day work of Brexit. Has no plan other than doesn't want what anyone else suggests.
Gove: Still in government, for now. At least seems able to grasp what a f up they have made.
Gisela Steward: left politics, seems to be running a choir in Birmingham.
Davis: Resigned, no plan for how to get out of the mess. Probably no idea how they got into the mess in the first place.
So, other than Gove, they have departed the scene to let someone else clear up their mess.
Nice.0 -
Compulsory purchase will take too long. Requisition is the way to go.Polruan said:
Not sure how well the scare tactics/project fear line will work once the government is giving specific, concrete advice on preparations that business will need to make to follow actual processes set out in law/regulations and debating which bits of Kent to compulsorily purchase. There’s a tension for the Brexiters in insisting that we have to be serious about no-deal and then trying to argue that any specific unpopular instance of no-deal preparation is unnecessary. Of course you’ll get Owen Patterson and IDS defending the incomprehensible but they are likely to end up on the other side of the argument from cabinet Brexiters like Gove and Raab which will weaken the message.kle4 said:
Won't work. No deal supporters will call it scare tactics, remain supporters will harden position, and the rest will split along those lines since the deal itself is still seen as crap.IanB2 said:
Maybe this is Mrs May's cunning plan to drive people back to her deal?TheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
I'm sure someone in the home office will be researching out the back of this Google:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=supermarket+car+parks+in+kent&oq=supermarket+car+parks+in+kent&aqs=chrome..69i57j33.18007j0j4&client=ms-unknown&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#istate=lrl:xpd
I would expect any supermarket, shopping centre, warehouse yard and car lot in Kent with a large enough single story car park to have been approached about compulsory closure post hard Brexit, as well as how the Red Cross is going to get involved in providing humanitarian assistance for lorry drivers scattered about the county. Basically Operation Stack on crack cocaine.0 -
He only admitted it long afterwards.justin124 said:
The latter would surely have breached Commons Rules and those responsible would/should have been sanctioned.TheScreamingEagles said:
He did.justin124 said:
Did he renege on pairing arrangements?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's just taking after Walter Harrison.justin124 said:The Tory Chief Whip seems to be rather slippery - not to be trusted.
1976, the Labour government won by 1 vote when the Labour MP Tom Pendry voted when he was supposed to be paired. Michael Heseltine was so incensed he grabbed the mace.
He also did this on a few occasions.
Famously, he provided disguises so that Labour MPs could vote twice in a division.0 -
An upstanding member, surely?ydoethur said:
Michael Cocks was of course one among many Cocks elected to the House in the twentieth century.TheScreamingEagles said:If you've ever watched the play This House you'll always have a soft spot for Walter Harrison, Bob Mellish, Michael Cocks, and the rest of the Labour whips from 1974 to 1979.
He did not however boast such a fine name as this upstanding gentleman.0 -
Most voters voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration despite endless prophecies of doom from the Remain camp about the economic consequences so these notices will change few Leavers minds. In any case even if Corbyn becomes PM that makes little difference as he backs Brexit and leaving the single market as the government doesTheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
It would take an Umunna premiership or someone similar to ensure soft Brexit or a deal with the EU which does not take almost a decade to agree now0 -
Well, 'missionary work' in English, but that includes conversion at home as well as abroad. So definitely aposite!Nigelb said:
Some of the translation 'mistakes' seem quite apposite:Dura_Ace said:
There is zero excuse for not doing an absolutely perfect job on it. Pathetic.TheScreamingEagles said:Ferfuxsake.
I remember when PB Leavers were hailing this as an awesome move.
https://twitter.com/JenniferMerode/status/1019842468764946432
One Welsh speaker told EURACTIV that the Welsh version uses the word ‘cenhadaeth’ to denote the mission of an organisation but pointed out that another meaning of ‘cenhadaeth’ is ‘religious evangelism’....
Misspelling the names of countries perhaps less so.
This one amused me:
Twitter users also pointed out that the German translation is full of archaic terminology, seemingly invented compound words and some even called it “unreadable”.
And yet the Germans don't seem at all appreciative about this graceful compliment to their language, which is invariably full of archaic terminology, invented compound words (often a peculiar mix of German and English) and if done corrrectly wholly unreadable.0 -
The only reference I can find to his activities as a whip is in acting exceptionally honourably in choosing not to accept Wheatherill's kind gesture which would have ended Wheatherill's career and instead took the path that he knew would result in bringing down the Govt. That was pretty impressive.TheScreamingEagles said:
He did.justin124 said:
Did he renege on pairing arrangements?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's just taking after Walter Harrison.justin124 said:The Tory Chief Whip seems to be rather slippery - not to be trusted.
1976, the Labour government won by 1 vote when the Labour MP Tom Pendry voted when he was supposed to be paired. Michael Heseltine was so incensed he grabbed the mace.
He also did this on a few occasions.
Famously, he provided disguises so that Labour MPs could vote twice in a division.0 -
You're quite right, I apologise for such a basic cock-up.MarqueeMark said:
An upstanding member, surely?ydoethur said:
Michael Cocks was of course one among many Cocks elected to the House in the twentieth century.TheScreamingEagles said:If you've ever watched the play This House you'll always have a soft spot for Walter Harrison, Bob Mellish, Michael Cocks, and the rest of the Labour whips from 1974 to 1979.
He did not however boast such a fine name as this upstanding gentleman.0 -
The point being missed this morning is that no matter what the Govt proposes to the EU, the EU will not accept it unless it is exactly what the EU wants. There has been been no effective negotiation because the EU will not budge. May knows this now which is why she produced the White Paper and then let the ERG amend it as whatever she puts forward to the EU it will always be rejected. She can then blame the EU as she can say (with complete honesty) that she has done all that she can to achieve a deal, but the EU have not moved at all.kle4 said:
But the reason (one of them)that won't happen and why no deal will is there are not the MP numbers to back it.rottenborough said:
Utterly ridiculous. We should apply to extend A50, admitting to the EU we are not ready and had not thought through what leaving means.kle4 said:
No deal is very very likely now. All sides seem to agree that whether one thinks no deal would be a disaster or ok we should have prepared sooner just in case. So surely they should be doing this?The_Apocalypse said:
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When o surgeThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
I don't think no deal will prove popular even though plenty say they prefer it, and I certainly don't think a majority of mps want it. Problem is it is the only viable outcome. The tory no dealers will prevent a deal (admittedly the EU might reject in anyway) and labour won't rescue a tory proposed deal.
No deal follows. We get told now of predicted outcomes and being scared by that is better than not being scared, if it proves right.
I truly think the UK Government are amazed at the negotiating stance of the EU. Im not as all they are doing is protecting the institution of the EU. They do not care about individual countries, as shown with their treatment of Greece, that just need to EU project to continue. I am someone who voted remain, but if there was a referundum tomorrow I would vote leave. I hate the EU institution now.0 -
Corbyn will shift position if necessary to be pm. His whole vague strategy leaves his options open.HYUFD said:
Most voters voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration despite endless prophecies of doom from the Remain camp about the economic consequences so these notices will change few Leavers minds. In any case even if Corbyn becomes PM that makes little difference as he backs Brexit and leaving the single market as the government doesTheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
It would take an Umunna premiership or someone similar to ensure soft Brexit or a deal with the EU which does not take almost a decade to agree now0 -
Well, Blair survived it for nearly nine years, Brown for more than twelve.rottenborough said:
Of course they occupied posts where trust was relatively less important.0 -
Nope, Corbyn is ideologically opposed to the single market as it stops his nationalisation plans as he has made consistently clear and he needs working class Labour Leave seats for a majority and they oppose free movementkle4 said:
Corbyn will shift position if necessary to be pm. His whole vague strategy leaves his options open.HYUFD said:
Most voters voted Leave to regain sovereignty and reduce immigration despite endless prophecies of doom from the Remain camp about the economic consequences so these notices will change few Leavers minds. In any case even if Corbyn becomes PM that makes little difference as he backs Brexit and leaving the single market as the government doesTheScreamingEagles said:
When those notices go out expect the followingThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
1) Support for Remain to surge
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
It would take an Umunna premiership or someone similar to ensure soft Brexit or a deal with the EU which does not take almost a decade to agree now0 -
TM just needs to keep going - it's all she's about or needs to be about. She doesn't care who she double crosses or throws under a bus. There is enough of a pattern in this. I expect that her 'deal' will be to park the UK in a Norway plus CU arrangement for a fixed period of two to five years. She will then turn round and say take this or have chaos - and it will be a free vote. Job done.0
-
His obsession with keeping Thatcher out of power was such that he frequently sailed close to the wind. He once threatened a police sergeant that he would be directing traffic on the North Circular unless he released Ian Mikardo, needed for a close vote. In January 1978 he was involved in an incident in the voting lobby while trying to prevent a government defeat on Scottish devolution. But despite his efforts, the Callaghan government collapsed after a vote of confidence was lost 311 to 310 in March 1979.kjh said:
The only reference I can find to his activities as a whip is in acting exceptionally honourably in choosing not to accept Wheatherill's kind gesture which would have ended Wheatherill's career and instead took the path that he knew would result in bringing down the Govt. That was pretty impressive.TheScreamingEagles said:
He did.justin124 said:
Did he renege on pairing arrangements?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's just taking after Walter Harrison.justin124 said:The Tory Chief Whip seems to be rather slippery - not to be trusted.
1976, the Labour government won by 1 vote when the Labour MP Tom Pendry voted when he was supposed to be paired. Michael Heseltine was so incensed he grabbed the mace.
He also did this on a few occasions.
Famously, he provided disguises so that Labour MPs could vote twice in a division.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/oct/23/walter-harrison
Harrison ran one of the most effective whipping operations in parliamentary history, conjuring majorities out of thin air week in, week out. Famously, he provided disguises so that Labour MPs could vote twice in a division, after the Conservatives called an unexpected vote - in breach, he thought, of an agreed deal. He registered the only half-vote recorded in Hansard, having jammed his foot in the lobby door, just as it was about to close, after being delayed because he was stuck in a lift. After a dispute with the parliamentary authorities, he was ruled to have been half in the lobby, and so a demi-vote was registered, and the day was saved for the government again.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20080858
Am a huge fan of Walter Harrison but the point I haven't explained very well is that with effective minority governments the whipping operations force good men (and women) to act in ways others would consider dishonourably.0 -
The point that is being missed here is thatcurrystar said:The point being missed this morning is that no matter what the Govt proposes to the EU, the EU will not accept it unless it is exactly what the EU wants. There has been been no effective negotiation because the EU will not budge. May knows this now which is why she produced the White Paper and then let the ERG amend it as whatever she puts forward to the EU it will always be rejected. She can then blame the EU as she can say (with complete honesty) that she has done all that she can to achieve a deal, but the EU have not moved at all.
I truly think the UK Government are amazed at the negotiating stance of the EU. Im not as all they are doing is protecting the institution of the EU. They do not care about individual countries, as shown with their treatment of Greece, that just need to EU project to continue. I am someone who voted remain, but if there was a referundum tomorrow I would vote leave. I hate the EU institution now.
a) Plenty of people warned that triggering A50 give the EU the upper hand in negotiations, and
b) The only options ever available where Remain or WTO
None of this should be a surprise. This was always where we were going to end up.0 -
I expect that a deal will be agreed between the government and the EU. But, whatever is agreed, Labour will want to vote against it, along with the most hardline Brexiteers.kle4 said:
But the reason (one of them)that won't happen and why no deal will is there are not the MP numbers to back it.rottenborough said:
Utterly ridiculous. We should apply to extend A50, admitting to the EU we are not ready and had not thought through what leaving means.kle4 said:
No deal is very very likely now. All sides seem to agree that whether one thinks no deal would be a disaster or ok we should have prepared sooner just in case. So surely they should be doing this?The_Apocalypse said:
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When o surgeThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
I don't think no deal will prove popular even though plenty say they prefer it, and I certainly don't think a majority of mps want it. Problem is it is the only viable outcome. The tory no dealers will prevent a deal (admittedly the EU might reject in anyway) and labour won't rescue a tory proposed deal.
No deal follows. We get told now of predicted outcomes and being scared by that is better than not being scared, if it proves right.
I think a lot turns on how many Labour MP's would break ranks, which way the Lib Dems, SNP vote, and how many Brexiteers are willing to support something that's not their preferred version of Brexit.0 -
Rules based institution in applying the rules shocker.currystar said:
The point being missed this morning is that no matter what the Govt proposes to the EU, the EU will not accept it unless it is exactly what the EU wants. There has been been no effective negotiation because the EU will not budge. May knows this now which is why she produced the White Paper and then let the ERG amend it as whatever she puts forward to the EU it will always be rejected. She can then blame the EU as she can say (with complete honesty) that she has done all that she can to achieve a deal, but the EU have not moved at all.kle4 said:
But the reason (one of them)that won't happen and why no deal will is there are not the MP numbers to back it.rottenborough said:
Utterly ridiculous. We should apply to extend A50, admitting to the EU we are not ready and had not thought through what leaving means.kle4 said:
No deal is very very likely now. All sides seem to agree that whether one thinks no deal would be a disaster or ok we should have prepared sooner just in case. So surely they should be doing this?The_Apocalypse said:
Why is government doing this nonsense FFS? I just saw it on my timeline today, and now I’m proper panicking.TheScreamingEagles said:
When o surgeThe_Apocalypse said:This is what Hard Brexiteers want to put the public through are you actually serious?
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1019599619301498880?s=21
2) Support for a referendum on the deal with the option of remaining surging
3) Government support to fall
4) Markets to get spooked and companies to ramp up their plans to relocate.
Almost like the hard Brexiteers want us to Remain.
I don't think no deal will prove popular even though plenty say they prefer it, and I certainly don't think a majority of mps want it. Problem is it is the only viable outcome. The tory no dealers will prevent a deal (admittedly the EU might reject in anyway) and labour won't rescue a tory proposed deal.
No deal follows. We get told now of predicted outcomes and being scared by that is better than not being scared, if it proves right.
I truly think the UK Government are amazed at the negotiating stance of the EU. Im not as all they are doing is protecting the institution of the EU. They do not care about individual countries, as shown with their treatment of Greece, that just need to EU project to continue. I am someone who voted remain, but if there was a referundum tomorrow I would vote leave. I hate the EU institution now.0 -
Ah, Mr. Pendry, the first person I was old enough to consider as my MP. Though my reaching voting age after GE 87, my student registration in a marginal (as at GE 2017, very, very, very marginal) and his eventual retirement meant I never voted in an election where he stood.TheScreamingEagles said:
He did.justin124 said:
Did he renege on pairing arrangements?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's just taking after Walter Harrison.justin124 said:The Tory Chief Whip seems to be rather slippery - not to be trusted.
1976, the Labour government won by 1 vote when the Labour MP Tom Pendry voted when he was supposed to be paired. Michael Heseltine was so incensed he grabbed the mace.
He also did this on a few occasions.
Famously, he provided disguises so that Labour MPs could vote twice in a division.0 -
Such behaviour basically amounts to undermining - and showing contempt for - our Parliamentary system. Much more akin to totalitarian states.TheScreamingEagles said:
He only admitted it long afterwards.justin124 said:
The latter would surely have breached Commons Rules and those responsible would/should have been sanctioned.TheScreamingEagles said:
He did.justin124 said:
Did he renege on pairing arrangements?TheScreamingEagles said:
He's just taking after Walter Harrison.justin124 said:The Tory Chief Whip seems to be rather slippery - not to be trusted.
1976, the Labour government won by 1 vote when the Labour MP Tom Pendry voted when he was supposed to be paired. Michael Heseltine was so incensed he grabbed the mace.
He also did this on a few occasions.
Famously, he provided disguises so that Labour MPs could vote twice in a division.0
