politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The battle for Wandsworth from a LAB perspective
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Both she and Burnham threw away perfectly winnable positions by trying to be all things to all people and not trying to be "controversial".IanB2 said:
Cooper had better work out what she wants to achieve by being in politics, then, because it wasn't at all apparent the last time she stood.surby said:
Yvette Cooper would be fine. She is a friend of Israel ! There are plenty of centrist friends of Palestine. Chuka is one of them. Burnham, Sadiq are also but not an MP.IanB2 said:
Or go full monty and pick a Jewish woman?Floater said:Why a woman Don ?- how about the best person who wins because of their talents rather than which box you think they should fit in.
I would still consider Yvette to be one of the non-Corbynista who could be looked at as future leader. But clearly it has to be Thornberry, not a Corbynista but will be acceptable to them.
Whatever one thinks of Corbyn, he certainly has thrown the rulebook away. 40% was the prize.
People do not like wishy-washy politics.
But she has sharp intellect and I would not rule her out yet but I do not see her winning the leadership with such high membership.
Thornberry will win since she will get the second vote of the moderates.
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In Wandsworth the Tories have performed more strongly at Local Elections over the last 30 years when compared with Pariamentary elections. Commentators such as Andrew Rawnsley et al tend to talk a lot of tosh when it comes to interpreting Local Election results. It is just psephological gibberish to suggest that Labour as the main opposition party should be streets ahead less than a year into a Parliament. There are plenty of precedents for an opposition doing better in years 4/5 than at the end of year 1.0
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Although, interestingly, Labour got marginally more votes in Wandsworth than the Conservatives. It seems a pretty rough FPTP distribution for them in terms of seatsSean_F said:This is a silly article. The Tories did win Wandsworth. There are no prizes for second.
. https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/9928151764318740480 -
Correct. In both Wandsworth and Westminster since the days of the £195 Poll Tax, many people vote Tory even though they are not Tory supporters. But the needle is shifting. Labour won Battersea and won Tooting decisively. Greening almost lost Putney. Times are changing.justin124 said:In Wandsworth the Tories have performed more strongly at Local Elections over the last 30 years when compared with Pariamentary elections. Commentators such as Andrew Rawnsley et al tend to talk a lot of tosh when it comes to interpreting Local Election results. It is just psephological gibberish to suggest that Labour as the main opposition party should be streets ahead less than a year into a Parliament. There are plenty of precedents for an opposition doing better in years 4/5 than at the end of year 1.
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Why anyone trusts polls anymore is beyond me. Until.there is some sense of regular correctness, they should be taken with a large pinch of salt.0
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Labour were overstated in London. On a more general point - I do not think they tell us who would win an EU ref tommorow either, they're too close for that.SquareRoot said:Why anyone trusts polls anymore is beyond me. Until.there is some sense of regular correctness, they should be taken with a large pinch of salt.
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They should have kept their promise to change the system, then?FF43 said:
Although, interestingly, Labour got marginally more votes in Wandsworth than the Conservatives. It seems a pretty rough FPTP distribution for them in terms of seatsSean_F said:This is a silly article. The Tories did win Wandsworth. There are no prizes for second.
. https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/9928151764318740480 -
It's more of an addiction than a matter of trust.SquareRoot said:Why anyone trusts polls anymore is beyond me. Until.there is some sense of regular correctness, they should be taken with a large pinch of salt.
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It's the only idea the Labour mainstreamers have.Artist said:If the only idea to extend Labour's appeal is to replace Corbyn with a woman, then Labour have well and truly run into a brick wall. It does feel like they have squeezed the LD/Greens/Non voters as much as they can and have nowhere else to go.
It shows why they are losing to Corbyn.0 -
Labour would have a very big margin in the Tooting seats - the Tories with a more efficient spread in both Battersea and Putney. As in much of inner London very big majorities don't get you many extra seatsFF43 said:
Although, interestingly, Labour got marginally more votes in Wandsworth than the Conservatives. It seems a pretty rough FPTP distribution for them in terms of seatsSean_F said:This is a silly article. The Tories did win Wandsworth. There are no prizes for second.
. https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/9928151764318740480 -
What we can conclude from it is that the Labour Party are very put out that the voters frustrated them in Wandsworth, and they disagree with their verdict.Sean_F said:This is a silly article. The Tories did win Wandsworth. There are no prizes for second.
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I think Labour run into the same problem in Kensington and Westminster too.FF43 said:
Although, interestingly, Labour got marginally more votes in Wandsworth than the Conservatives. It seems a pretty rough FPTP distribution for them in terms of seatsSean_F said:This is a silly article. The Tories did win Wandsworth. There are no prizes for second.
. https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/9928151764318740480 -
I dont think.the pollsters know if they are getting it right it would be inwise imho to bet anything on the basis if a poll by any of tPulpstar said:
Labour were overstated in London. On a more general point - I do not think they tell us who would win an EU ref tommorow either, they're too close for that.SquareRoot said:Why anyone trusts polls anymore is beyond me. Until.there is some sense of regular correctness, they should be taken with a large pinch of salt.
Hem most esoecially if the poll proved close.0 -
Neither Tory nor Labour probably has much upside left on their vote share. The winner of the next election will be the one that doesn't lose a chunk of support to a smaller party(ies).Casino_Royale said:
It's the only idea the Labour mainstreamers have.Artist said:If the only idea to extend Labour's appeal is to replace Corbyn with a woman, then Labour have well and truly run into a brick wall. It does feel like they have squeezed the LD/Greens/Non voters as much as they can and have nowhere else to go.
It shows why they are losing to Corbyn.0 -
Dom Brind at the sour grapes again.i see.0
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Probably right. Which makes it "interesting", because I can see a huge spread of results and outcomes there.IanB2 said:
Neither Tory nor Labour probably has much upside left on their vote share. The winner of the next election will be the one that doesn't lose a chunk of support to a smaller party(ies).Casino_Royale said:
It's the only idea the Labour mainstreamers have.Artist said:If the only idea to extend Labour's appeal is to replace Corbyn with a woman, then Labour have well and truly run into a brick wall. It does feel like they have squeezed the LD/Greens/Non voters as much as they can and have nowhere else to go.
It shows why they are losing to Corbyn.0 -
That, and turnout.IanB2 said:
Neither Tory nor Labour probably has much upside left on their vote share. The winner of the next election will be the one that doesn't lose a chunk of support to a smaller party(ies).Casino_Royale said:
It's the only idea the Labour mainstreamers have.Artist said:If the only idea to extend Labour's appeal is to replace Corbyn with a woman, then Labour have well and truly run into a brick wall. It does feel like they have squeezed the LD/Greens/Non voters as much as they can and have nowhere else to go.
It shows why they are losing to Corbyn.0 -
I think that's right.IanB2 said:
Neither Tory nor Labour probably has much upside left on their vote share. The winner of the next election will be the one that doesn't lose a chunk of support to a smaller party(ies).Casino_Royale said:
It's the only idea the Labour mainstreamers have.Artist said:If the only idea to extend Labour's appeal is to replace Corbyn with a woman, then Labour have well and truly run into a brick wall. It does feel like they have squeezed the LD/Greens/Non voters as much as they can and have nowhere else to go.
It shows why they are losing to Corbyn.
Labour are vulnerable to a Green pinch, especially if they replace Corbyn with someone a bit more Alan Partridge.
The Tories could lose out to reFaraged UKIP or to pavement politics from the Lib Dems new larger membership.
But there could also be something really bizarre. If the Brexit plan turns out really watered down, Farage could do an Enoch and call for leavers to vote Corbyn as the politician still in play with the longest track record of opposing Europe.
I'm keeping my cash in my purse on the outcome of the next GE for now.
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For those who love maps:
https://twitter.com/Psephography/status/993205949069393921?s=19
There is a link in the thread to the original file for those who really, really love maps!0 -
Are those voters stupid enough to want to multiply their council tax bills?surby said:
Correct. In both Wandsworth and Westminster since the days of the £195 Poll Tax, many people vote Tory even though they are not Tory supporters. But the needle is shifting. Labour won Battersea and won Tooting decisively. Greening almost lost Putney. Times are changing.justin124 said:In Wandsworth the Tories have performed more strongly at Local Elections over the last 30 years when compared with Pariamentary elections. Commentators such as Andrew Rawnsley et al tend to talk a lot of tosh when it comes to interpreting Local Election results. It is just psephological gibberish to suggest that Labour as the main opposition party should be streets ahead less than a year into a Parliament. There are plenty of precedents for an opposition doing better in years 4/5 than at the end of year 1.
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williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
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From a sample that’s only 37% 2016 Remain voters and hasn’t been weighted to the referendum result. That poll is a disgrace.Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf0 -
It would be nice if someone would do a simple coloured map with the ward boundaries, rather than whiting out green spaces. It makes the leafier suburbs almost unrecognisable!Foxy said:For those who love maps:
https://twitter.com/Psephography/status/993205949069393921?s=19
There is a link in the thread to the original file for those who really, really love maps!0 -
Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=210 -
Well worth watching the Dan Cruickshank / Don McCullin documentary of their visit to Syria to see Palmyra. On BBC 4 now.
Do watch.0 -
Ah I see. So any poll you disagree with has to be trashed even when it is from a reputable company. The Comres poll you linked to from January didn't even ask how people voted in the last referendum and certainly couldn't weight by that and yet you are happy to quote that as proof of your personal view.williamglenn said:
From a sample that’s only 37% 2016 Remain voters and hasn’t been weighted to the referendum result. That poll is a disgrace.Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
I also note you cherry picked the bit about how people would vote but ignored the bit that said a majority did not think there should be a second referendum.
I would suggest it is not the polls that are a disgrace but you.0 -
It would seem so, as there was a swing to Labour albeit insufficient.blueblue said:
Are those voters stupid enough to want to multiply their council tax bills?surby said:
Correct. In both Wandsworth and Westminster since the days of the £195 Poll Tax, many people vote Tory even though they are not Tory supporters. But the needle is shifting. Labour won Battersea and won Tooting decisively. Greening almost lost Putney. Times are changing.justin124 said:In Wandsworth the Tories have performed more strongly at Local Elections over the last 30 years when compared with Pariamentary elections. Commentators such as Andrew Rawnsley et al tend to talk a lot of tosh when it comes to interpreting Local Election results. It is just psephological gibberish to suggest that Labour as the main opposition party should be streets ahead less than a year into a Parliament. There are plenty of precedents for an opposition doing better in years 4/5 than at the end of year 1.
People do not always vote with their wallets, as we see from Brexit.0 -
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
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I’m in good company.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah I see. So any poll you disagree with has to be trashed even when it is from a reputable company. The Comres poll you linked to from January didn't even ask how people voted in the last referendum and certainly couldn't weight by that and yet you are happy to quote that as proof of your personal view.williamglenn said:
From a sample that’s only 37% 2016 Remain voters and hasn’t been weighted to the referendum result. That poll is a disgrace.Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
I also note you cherry picked the bit about how people would vote but ignored the bit that said a majority did not think there should be a second referendum.
I would suggest it is not the polls that are a disgrace but you.
https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/979308710043488257?s=210 -
Um no. Just because Mike was commenting on that poll does not mean he was trying to misrepresent it. You on the other hand were clearly trying to misrepresent the poll you used as 'evidence'.williamglenn said:
I’m in good company.Richard_Tyndall said:
Ah I see. So any poll you disagree with has to be trashed even when it is from a reputable company. The Comres poll you linked to from January didn't even ask how people voted in the last referendum and certainly couldn't weight by that and yet you are happy to quote that as proof of your personal view.williamglenn said:
From a sample that’s only 37% 2016 Remain voters and hasn’t been weighted to the referendum result. That poll is a disgrace.Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
I also note you cherry picked the bit about how people would vote but ignored the bit that said a majority did not think there should be a second referendum.
I would suggest it is not the polls that are a disgrace but you.
https://twitter.com/msmithsonpb/status/979308710043488257?s=210 -
*referendumsOmnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
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I would suggest that is reasonable in principle and of course I would support that in this instance as that suits my own personal wishes.Omnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
But I am not sure it would be practical or fair. For example it is slanted in favour of change. One could argue that as soon as a vote for the status quo has won it could be subject to another immediate vote as it has been implemented. If Remain had won it would clearly have been wrong to immediately start demanding another referendum. I think there would have to be some sort of minimum time limit or change in circumstance clause as well to protect a status quo vote.0 -
Um, Permission to masturbate?Foxy said:For those who love maps:
https://twitter.com/Psephography/status/993205949069393921?s=19
There is a link in the thread to the original file for those who really, really love maps!
(only kidding!)0 -
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Nonsense! Referenda!IanB2 said:
*referendumsOmnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
(I may be wrong - just latin plural I guessed. I'm reasonably sure it's not as you say, because that sounds ugly.)
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Referendums - there was no such word as "referendum" in Latin!Omnium said:
Nonsense! Referenda!IanB2 said:
*referendumsOmnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
(I may be wrong - just latin plural I guessed. I'm reasonably sure it's not as you say, because that sounds ugly.)0 -
They were Andrew Mitchells - always interested in plebs?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Referendums - there was no such word as "referendum" in Latin!Omnium said:
Nonsense! Referenda!IanB2 said:
*referendumsOmnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
(I may be wrong - just latin plural I guessed. I'm reasonably sure it's not as you say, because that sounds ugly.)
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Mark Williams would appear to have balls of pure steel to take that pot on after the last frame.0
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Yes, you are wrong. Referenda would be a set of questions to be referred together (to the people), in the same way that an addenda = set of items to be added and memoranda = set of items to be noted or remembered, agenda = to be discussed, etc. A series of separate single votes are referendums.Omnium said:
Nonsense! Referenda!IanB2 said:
*referendumsOmnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
(I may be wrong - just latin plural I guessed. I'm reasonably sure it's not as you say, because that sounds ugly.)0 -
Well yeah - all referenda (I may have to correct that pending IanB2's words) have to be such that their result is immediately something that can happen. Only complete idiots would have a referendum on a subject like Brexit, phrased as it was. The politics of the UK is thus exposed as laughable foolishness. Quite right, it is. Given such exposure though we may have upped our game. (It seems very from the case, I'll concede_)Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest that is reasonable in principle and of course I would support that in this instance as that suits my own personal wishes.Omnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
But I am not sure it would be practical or fair. For example it is slanted in favour of change. One could argue that as soon as a vote for the status quo has won it could be subject to another immediate vote as it has been implemented. If Remain had won it would clearly have been wrong to immediately start demanding another referendum. I think there would have to be some sort of minimum time limit or change in circumstance clause as well to protect a status quo vote.0 -
deleted owing to error0
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15 years after his second world title - wins his third.
Quite extraordinary.
And yes John Virgo, you are very confused. Please, please retire.0 -
Almost all referendums (I am in the IanB2 school) are about changes from the status quo so I am not sue why you are so critical of them. I think we should have far more rather than fewer of them.Omnium said:
Well yeah - all referenda (I may have to correct that pending IanB2's words) have to be such that their result is immediately something that can happen. Only complete idiots would have a referendum on a subject like Brexit, phrased as it was. The politics of the UK is thus exposed as laughable foolishness. Quite right, it is. Given such exposure though we may have upped our game. (It seems very from the case, I'll concede_)Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest that is reasonable in principle and of course I would support that in this instance as that suits my own personal wishes.Omnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
But I am not sure it would be practical or fair. For example it is slanted in favour of change. One could argue that as soon as a vote for the status quo has won it could be subject to another immediate vote as it has been implemented. If Remain had won it would clearly have been wrong to immediately start demanding another referendum. I think there would have to be some sort of minimum time limit or change in circumstance clause as well to protect a status quo vote.
0 -
Yes - if they think a woman is the best person then pick them - not because they think now is the time to tick that box.David_Evershed said:Floater said:Why a woman Don ?- how about the best person who wins because of their talents rather than which box you think they should fit in.
It's the leadership candidate with the most Labour member votes that wins - not the best person for the job. So that could be a woman.
Tories will probably have a BAME PM before the Brocialists have a female leader.0 -
It's perfectly possible NOT to be in a single market and/or a customs union and/or have freedom of movement with the EU - ninety percent of the world's nations are in exactly that state. What of course is lacking are competent operators and politicians with conviction willing to see that through in the UK.Omnium said:
Well yeah - all referenda (I may have to correct that pending IanB2's words) have to be such that their result is immediately something that can happen. Only complete idiots would have a referendum on a subject like Brexit, phrased as it was. The politics of the UK is thus exposed as laughable foolishness. Quite right, it is. Given such exposure though we may have upped our game. (It seems very from the case, I'll concede_)Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest that is reasonable in principle and of course I would support that in this instance as that suits my own personal wishes.Omnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
But I am not sure it would be practical or fair. For example it is slanted in favour of change. One could argue that as soon as a vote for the status quo has won it could be subject to another immediate vote as it has been implemented. If Remain had won it would clearly have been wrong to immediately start demanding another referendum. I think there would have to be some sort of minimum time limit or change in circumstance clause as well to protect a status quo vote.0 -
They are the ones that don't have integrated JIT supply chains that criss-cross the EU.brendan16 said:It's perfectly possible NOT to be in a single market and/or a customs union and/or have freedom of movement with the EU - ninety percent of the world's nations are in exactly that state.
0 -
Permission has to be asked?Sunil_Prasannan said:
Um, Permission to masturbate?Foxy said:For those who love maps:
https://twitter.com/Psephography/status/993205949069393921?s=19
There is a link in the thread to the original file for those who really, really love maps!
(only kidding!)0 -
Good god that map is lovely. My computer certainly didn't enjoy rendering it.0
-
Thanks. I rather like being wrong in the right circumstances.IanB2 said:
Yes, you are wrong. Referenda would be a set of questions to be referred together (to the people), in the same way that an addenda = set of items to be added and memoranda = set of items to be noted or remembered, agenda = to be discussed, etc. A series of separate single votes are referendums.Omnium said:
Nonsense! Referenda!IanB2 said:
*referendumsOmnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
(I may be wrong - just latin plural I guessed. I'm reasonably sure it's not as you say, because that sounds ugly.)
0 -
They’re also nations that haven’t signed a Good Friday Agreement with the Republic of Ireland.Scott_P said:
They are the ones that don't have integrated JIT supply chains that criss-cross the EU.brendan16 said:It's perfectly possible NOT to be in a single market and/or a customs union and/or have freedom of movement with the EU - ninety percent of the world's nations are in exactly that state.
How very inconvenient that must be to Brexiteers.0 -
Life is apparently very inconvenient to Brexiteers.Bromptonaut said:How very inconvenient that must be to Brexiteers.
0 -
Incredibly short termist of Hammond.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=210 -
There has been a change in circumstances:
We can now see that Brexit is a pile of claptrap.
Notice how nobody bothers to argue for Brexit’s merits anymore? It’s all just we have to do it because the people said so.
What rot.0 -
Serious question: why is the government - overtly committed to Brexit - lacking competence and conviction?brendan16 said:
It's perfectly possible NOT to be in a single market and/or a customs union and/or have freedom of movement with the EU - ninety percent of the world's nations are in exactly that state. What of course is lacking are competent operators and politicians with conviction willing to see that through in the UK.Omnium said:
e politics of the UK is thus exposed as laughable foolishness. Quite right, it is. Given such exposure though we may have upped our game. (It seems very from the case, I'll concede_)Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest that is reasonable in principle and of course I would support that in this instance as that suits my own personal wishes.Omnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
But I am not sure it would be practical or fair. For example it is slanted in favour of change. One could argue that as soon as a vote for the status quo has won it could be subject to another immediate vote as it has been implemented. If Remain had won it would clearly have been wrong to immediately start demanding another referendum. I think there would have to be some sort of minimum time limit or change in circumstance clause as well to protect a status quo vote.
It is after all, led by leading Brexiters in the key ministries.0 -
I'm dismissive because they have to be binary (unless you're a frothing loon), and because they have to be obeyed, and can't be retracted. There is no possible way in which the EUref can be undone. What on earth does that mean? I guess it means that we have to do something really substantial to tick that 'we did what you said' box. But there's no answer to the people that may feel in times ahead that we failed to deliver on the referendum question.Richard_Tyndall said:
Almost all referendums (I am in the IanB2 school) are about changes from the status quo so I am not sue why you are so critical of them. I think we should have far more rather than fewer of them.Omnium said:
Well yeah - all referenda (I may have to correct that pending IanB2's words) have to be such that their result is immediately something that can happen. Only complete idiots would have a referendum on a subject like Brexit, phrased as it was. The politics of the UK is thus exposed as laughable foolishness. Quite right, it is. Given such exposure though we may have upped our game. (It seems very from the case, I'll concede_)Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest that is reasonable in principle and of course I would support that in this instance as that suits my own personal wishes.Omnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
But I am not sure it would be practical or fair. For example it is slanted in favour of change. One could argue that as soon as a vote for the status quo has won it could be subject to another immediate vote as it has been implemented. If Remain had won it would clearly have been wrong to immediately start demanding another referendum. I think there would have to be some sort of minimum time limit or change in circumstance clause as well to protect a status quo vote.
Democracy is messed up - I don't think the solution is to ask the people
0 -
Presumably Fox will resign rather than acquiesce to this short-sighted if not self-harming policy?Elliot said:
Incredibly short termist of Hammond.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
Oh.0 -
But if Corbyn wasn't a hard Brexiteer and labour defended the single market that is where we would land.Gardenwalker said:
Serious question: why is the government - overtly committed to Brexit - lacking competence and conviction?brendan16 said:
It's perfectly possible NOT to be in a single market and/or a customs union and/or have freedom of movement with the EU - ninety percent of the world's nations are in exactly that state. What of course is lacking are competent operators and politicians with conviction willing to see that through in the UK.Omnium said:
e politics of the UK is thus exposed as laughable foolishness. Quite right, it is. Given such exposure though we may have upped our game. (It seems very from the case, I'll concede_)Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest that is reasonable in principle and of course I would support that in this instance as that suits my own personal wishes.Omnium said:Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
But I am not sure it would be practical or fair. For example it is slanted in favour of change. One could argue that as soon as a vote for the status quo has won it could be subject to another immediate vote as it has been implemented. If Remain had won it would clearly have been wrong to immediately start demanding another referendum. I think there would have to be some sort of minimum time limit or change in circumstance clause as well to protect a status quo vote.
It is after all, led by leading Brexiters in the key ministries.
You do need to keep Corbyn in your line of fire0 -
Who knows, we might get someone more competent?Gardenwalker said:
Presumably Fox will resign rather than acquiesce to this short-sighted if not self-harming policy?Elliot said:
Incredibly short termist of Hammond.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
Oh.0 -
And yet, so many BAME voters don’t vote Tory.Floater said:
Yes - if they think a woman is the best person then pick them - not because they think now is the time to tick that box.David_Evershed said:Floater said:Why a woman Don ?- how about the best person who wins because of their talents rather than which box you think they should fit in.
It's the leadership candidate with the most Labour member votes that wins - not the best person for the job. So that could be a woman.
Tories will probably have a BAME PM before the Brocialists have a female leader.
0 -
No, you are wrong. Nobody says "a memoranda" or "an addenda". Both are plurals as used in English.IanB2 said:
Yes, you are wrong. Referenda would be a set of questions to be referred together (to the people), in the same way that an addenda = set of items to be added and memoranda = set of items to be noted or remembered, agenda = to be discussed, etc. A series of separate single votes are referendums.Omnium said:
Nonsense! Referenda!IanB2 said:
*referendumsOmnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
(I may be wrong - just latin plural I guessed. I'm reasonably sure it's not as you say, because that sounds ugly.)0 -
Brexit couldn’t happen without Corbyn.Big_G_NorthWales said:
But if Corbyn wasn't a hard Brexiteer and labour defended the single market that is where we would land.Gardenwalker said:
Serious question: why is the government - overtly committed to Brexit - lacking competence and conviction?brendan16 said:Omnium said:
e politics of the UK is thus exposed as laughable foolishness. Quite right, it is. Given such exposure though we may have upped our game. (It seems very from the case, I'll concede_)Richard_Tyndall said:
I would suggest that is reasonable in principle and of course I would support that in this instance as that suits my own personal wishes.Omnium said:Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
But I am not sure it would be practical or fair. For example it is slanted in favour of change. One could argue that as soon as a vote for the status quo has won it could be subject to another immediate vote as it has been implemented. If Remain had won it would clearly have been wrong to immediately start demanding another referendum. I think there would have to be some sort of minimum time limit or change in circumstance clause as well to protect a status quo vote.
It is after all, led by leading Brexiters in the key ministries.
You do need to keep Corbyn in your line of fire
In fact, alongside Farage, history may regard him as Brexit’s best friend.
But that’s not my question. My question is, why is Brexit going a bit tits when leading Brexiters have been in charge?
We were assured it would be the easiest negotiation in history.0 -
My English teacher always insisted on syllabi.Ishmael_Z said:
No, you are wrong. Nobody says "a memoranda" or "an addenda". Both are plurals as used in English.IanB2 said:
Yes, you are wrong. Referenda would be a set of questions to be referred together (to the people), in the same way that an addenda = set of items to be added and memoranda = set of items to be noted or remembered, agenda = to be discussed, etc. A series of separate single votes are referendums.Omnium said:
Nonsense! Referenda!IanB2 said:
*referendumsOmnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
(I may be wrong - just latin plural I guessed. I'm reasonably sure it's not as you say, because that sounds ugly.)
As in more than one syllabus.
Just leaving that there for the grammar freaks.0 -
Didn't Speaker Boothroyd rule on this a few years ago?Ishmael_Z said:
No, you are wrong. Nobody says "a memoranda" or "an addenda". Both are plurals as used in English.IanB2 said:
Yes, you are wrong. Referenda would be a set of questions to be referred together (to the people), in the same way that an addenda = set of items to be added and memoranda = set of items to be noted or remembered, agenda = to be discussed, etc. A series of separate single votes are referendums.Omnium said:
Nonsense! Referenda!IanB2 said:
*referendumsOmnium said:
If you were so foolish to allow referenda in the first place wouldn't you consider a rule such as;Richard_Tyndall said:williamglenn said:
Com Res - http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Daily-Mirror_January-2018-poll_EURef-1.pdfSean_F said:
OTOH, both ORB and Com Res recently found majorities in favour of Brexit.williamglenn said:
That's because your alarm clock has not yet been triggered, but it will be.rcs1000 said:I don't see anything that looks like us staying in the EU.
Remain: 55%
Leave: 45%
Old news - or perhaps cherry picking by you.
The March 2018 Brexit survey by Comres showed only 35% wanted a second referendum or a reconsideration of Brexit.
65% said "The result of the 2016 Referendum should be respected and the country needs to move on"
http://www.comresglobal.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Daily-Express_Brexit-poll-March-2018.pdf
"There can be no referendum on a subject where the same question is already subject to an unimplemented referendum result."
(I may be wrong - just latin plural I guessed. I'm reasonably sure it's not as you say, because that sounds ugly.)
0 -
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash. Sadly, it was Liam's patchy performance in this area that has given the Custom Unionites ammunition. Because he failed to convince it's given the impression that the whole shindig isn't worth the bother.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=210 -
-
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.0 -
OT. Has there ever been a more nauseous politician than Boris Johnson (other than Trump and Netanyahu obviously)0
-
Why would a new British PM make any more difference than a new Greek PM did? If you play chicken with the EU you end up as roadkill.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.0 -
williamglenn said:
Why would a new British PM make any more difference than a new Greek PM did? If you play chicken with the EU you end up as roadkill.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
The UK is NOT Greece!0 -
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.0 -
Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.0 -
How would a general election help? As we know from 2017, it weakened the Brexit mandate, not strengthened it.GIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.
If you want a new mandate for Brexit, a second referendum is the only way to go.0 -
"Not another one?!"GIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.0 -
If TM goes so does Brexit -GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.0 -
There were many odd things about 2017. Theresa May threatening her own voters. Theresa May ducking TV debate. Theresa May refusing to meet with any actual human beings. Jezza running a hard left manifesto and not coming under any scrutiny, etc...williamglenn said:
How would a general election help? As we know from 2017, it weakened the Brexit mandate, not strengthened it.GIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.
If you want a new mandate for Brexit, a second referendum is the only way to go.
Of course it's possible Election 2018 will come up with a similar outcome to 2017 but I rather doubt it.
And no I don't think a second referendum would make any difference. The people who are refusing to accept the people's verdict will do so again. And again. And again.
The only thing that can get this done is "bottoms on green benches" and for that there's going to have to be another election.0 -
They have not been in charge. They were put in place by May as a buffer whilst she has called the shots at every turn. Just look at what happened when Davis started to try and actually make stand on anything and the way he has been overruled and sidelined by May.Gardenwalker said:
Brexit couldn’t happen without Corbyn.
In fact, alongside Farage, history may regard him as Brexit’s best friend.
But that’s not my question. My question is, why is Brexit going a bit tits when leading Brexiters have been in charge?
We were assured it would be the easiest negotiation in history.
We have a Remainer in charge who never understood Brexit in the first place and has made a hash of things so far just like she has every other job she has ever done.
She is using the Leave supporting ministers in exactly the way she used Amber Rudd to cover her own ineptitude.0 -
Brexit isn't happening (in any meaningful sense) anyway - Unfortunately by siding with Remainers Theresa May has put Brexiteers into a position where they have nothing to lose but to roll the dice and see what happens.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If TM goes so does Brexit -GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.0 -
Just does not work that way. Boris will not get my vote and it is not certain he would be put in the final twoGIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.
It is clear that a conspiracy of the EU and influential UK remainers are conspiring to move us into the EEA.
Boris, JRM or any other Brexiteer just does not have the numbers0 -
Whereas I suppose a PM who understood Brexit would have shafted Brexit voters by announcing straight away that we'd go for the Norway option?Richard_Tyndall said:We have a Remainer in charge who never understood Brexit in the first place and has made a hash of things so far just like she has every other job she has ever done.
0 -
Ah, here we go - the stampede of Brexiters thrashing around to blame everyone but themselves for this fiasco is well underway.Richard_Tyndall said:
They have not been in charge. They were put in place by May as a buffer whilst she has called the shots at every turn. Just look at what happened when Davis started to try and actually make stand on anything and the way he has been overruled and sidelined by May.Gardenwalker said:
Brexit couldn’t happen without Corbyn.
In fact, alongside Farage, history may regard him as Brexit’s best friend.
But that’s not my question. My question is, why is Brexit going a bit tits when leading Brexiters have been in charge?
We were assured it would be the easiest negotiation in history.
We have a Remainer in charge who never understood Brexit in the first place and has made a hash of things so far just like she has every other job she has ever done.
She is using the Leave supporting ministers in exactly the way she used Amber Rudd to cover her own ineptitude.0 -
Time is so short this will have to be a quick swap by the Parliamentary Party again IMO (followed by a general election)Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just does not work that way. Boris will not get my vote and it is not certain he would be put in the final twoGIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.0 -
Yes, I genuinely worry that our sensible policy on this will fail because it's being pushed by Boris. But it's more likely that Trump will decide whatever without reference to us, as per usual.TheWhiteRabbit said:BoJo on Fox:
http://video.foxnews.com/v/5781292164001/?#sp=show-clips
Two observations:
1. British policy is very sensible
2. Boris Johnson looks stupid0 -
Not going to happen. No way will the Tories risk another GE this side of 2022.GIN1138 said:
Time is so short this will have to be a quick swap by the Parliamentary Prty again IMO (followed by a general election)Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just does not work that way. Boris will not get my vote and it is not certain he would be put in the final twoGIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.0 -
As if the Branch Jeremy would have its great leader Koresh just step down.
Fundamentalists, of whatever stripe and wherever they roam, are a problem.0 -
It is clear that a hard Brexit is not possible and remaining in a customs union of some form will win the day through the HOC demonstrating to everyone that the softer remainers will have won.Benpointer said:
Ah, here we go - the stampede of Brexiters thrashing around to blame everyone but themselves for this fiasco is well underway.Richard_Tyndall said:
They have not been in charge. They were put in place by May as a buffer whilst she has called the shots at every turn. Just look at what happened when Davis started to try and actually make stand on anything and the way he has been overruled and sidelined by May.Gardenwalker said:
Brexit couldn’t happen without Corbyn.
In fact, alongside Farage, history may regard him as Brexit’s best friend.
But that’s not my question. My question is, why is Brexit going a bit tits when leading Brexiters have been in charge?
We were assured it would be the easiest negotiation in history.
We have a Remainer in charge who never understood Brexit in the first place and has made a hash of things so far just like she has every other job she has ever done.
She is using the Leave supporting ministers in exactly the way she used Amber Rudd to cover her own ineptitude.
I have reservations about the fall out from all of this and you can see on here some Brexiteer's in a panic but I see no alternative0 -
Benpointer said:
Not going to happen. No way will the Tories risk another GE this side of 2022.GIN1138 said:
Time is so short this will have to be a quick swap by the Parliamentary Prty again IMO (followed by a general election)Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just does not work that way. Boris will not get my vote and it is not certain he would be put in the final twoGIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.
But there's no way they can risk betraying Brexit as Theresa May is planning to do because they will be finished for a generation.0 -
Grow up Ben. I have been saying this about May since long before we ever got close to a referendum. She is easily the worst minister we have had since Cameron came to power in 2010. She is simply too dumb to understand the detail of any ministry let alone Brexit.Benpointer said:
Ah, here we go - the stampede of Brexiters thrashing around to blame everyone but themselves for this fiasco is well underway.Richard_Tyndall said:
They have not been in charge. They were put in place by May as a buffer whilst she has called the shots at every turn. Just look at what happened when Davis started to try and actually make stand on anything and the way he has been overruled and sidelined by May.Gardenwalker said:
Brexit couldn’t happen without Corbyn.
In fact, alongside Farage, history may regard him as Brexit’s best friend.
But that’s not my question. My question is, why is Brexit going a bit tits when leading Brexiters have been in charge?
We were assured it would be the easiest negotiation in history.
We have a Remainer in charge who never understood Brexit in the first place and has made a hash of things so far just like she has every other job she has ever done.
She is using the Leave supporting ministers in exactly the way she used Amber Rudd to cover her own ineptitude.
Just think on this: If she had not been dumb enough to call the election last year she would still have a working majority in Parliament and would not have half the problems she now has.
She was unfit to be a minister back in 2010 and is certainly unfit to be PM now.
0 -
Or maybe she is counting the numbers and is bowing to inevitability and no other leader could do anything else anywayRichard_Tyndall said:
They have not been in charge. They were put in place by May as a buffer whilst she has called the shots at every turn. Just look at what happened when Davis started to try and actually make stand on anything and the way he has been overruled and sidelined by May.Gardenwalker said:
Brexit couldn’t happen without Corbyn.
In fact, alongside Farage, history may regard him as Brexit’s best friend.
But that’s not my question. My question is, why is Brexit going a bit tits when leading Brexiters have been in charge?
We were assured it would be the easiest negotiation in history.
We have a Remainer in charge who never understood Brexit in the first place and has made a hash of things so far just like she has every other job she has ever done.
She is using the Leave supporting ministers in exactly the way she used Amber Rudd to cover her own ineptitude.0 -
Nonsense:GIN1138 said:Benpointer said:
Not going to happen. No way will the Tories risk another GE this side of 2022.GIN1138 said:
Time is so short this will have to be a quick swap by the Parliamentary Prty again IMO (followed by a general election)Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just does not work that way. Boris will not get my vote and it is not certain he would be put in the final twoGIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.
But there's no way they can risk betraying Brexit as Theresa May is planning to do because they will be finished for a generation.
a) A good proportion of Tory (and swing) voters were Remainers
b) Many Leavers will be satisfied if we LEave the EU but stay in a CU.
c) Who are hardline Brexiters going to vote for if not the Tories?0 -
Ah - just make a statement such as 'hard Brexit is not possible' and then you get a free pass to ignore a democratic vote. How easy it is!Big_G_NorthWales said:
It is clear that a hard Brexit is not possible and remaining in a customs union of some form will win the day through the HOC demonstrating to everyone that the softer remainers will have won.Benpointer said:
Ah, here we go - the stampede of Brexiters thrashing around to blame everyone but themselves for this fiasco is well underway.Richard_Tyndall said:
They have not been in charge. They were put in place by May as a buffer whilst she has called the shots at every turn. Just look at what happened when Davis started to try and actually make stand on anything and the way he has been overruled and sidelined by May.Gardenwalker said:
Brexit couldn’t happen without Corbyn.
In fact, alongside Farage, history may regard him as Brexit’s best friend.
But that’s not my question. My question is, why is Brexit going a bit tits when leading Brexiters have been in charge?
We were assured it would be the easiest negotiation in history.
We have a Remainer in charge who never understood Brexit in the first place and has made a hash of things so far just like she has every other job she has ever done.
She is using the Leave supporting ministers in exactly the way she used Amber Rudd to cover her own ineptitude.
I have reservations about the fall out from all of this and you can see on here some Brexiteer's in a panic but I see no alternative
Of course, nobody can explain why Brexit cannot be carried out based on the promises made in both parties manifestos. As I have pointed out many times, the HOC can pass all the motions they like, but they cannot force the executive to negotiate a CU agreement if they don't want to.0 -
Heck, even the Daily Mail (which has hitherto been INTENSELY supportive of Theresa May) is now sounding very ominous in it's editorials.
I think PB has really missed how serious things are for May now. There's a decent chance she'll be gone by the end of the month IMO.0 -
To be honest , if she goes there is more chance of a meaningful Brexit and not a BINO.Big_G_NorthWales said:
If TM goes so does Brexit -GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.0 -
I don't disagree that May is inept, though I doubt she is dumb, rather just lacking in emotional intelligence.Richard_Tyndall said:
Grow up Ben. I have been saying this about May since long before we ever got close to a referendum. She is easily the worst minister we have had since Cameron came to power in 2010. She is simply too dumb to understand the detail of any ministry let alone Brexit.Benpointer said:
Ah, here we go - the stampede of Brexiters thrashing around to blame everyone but themselves for this fiasco is well underway.Richard_Tyndall said:
They have not been in charge. They were put in place by May as a buffer whilst she has called the shots at every turn. Just look at what happened when Davis started to try and actually make stand on anything and the way he has been overruled and sidelined by May.Gardenwalker said:
Brexit couldn’t happen without Corbyn.
In fact, alongside Farage, history may regard him as Brexit’s best friend.
But that’s not my question. My question is, why is Brexit going a bit tits when leading Brexiters have been in charge?
We were assured it would be the easiest negotiation in history.
We have a Remainer in charge who never understood Brexit in the first place and has made a hash of things so far just like she has every other job she has ever done.
She is using the Leave supporting ministers in exactly the way she used Amber Rudd to cover her own ineptitude.
Just think on this: If she had not been dumb enough to call the election last year she would still have a working majority in Parliament and would not have half the problems she now has.
She was unfit to be a minister back in 2010 and is certainly unfit to be PM now.0 -
They don't have to vote for anyone else. They just have to not vote. And no one - certainly not you - has explained how people are going to feel about being in a situation where third party states can export to us tariff free but we cannot do the same to them. All that will do is stoke up even more hatred of those who kept us in a CU.Benpointer said:
Nonsense:GIN1138 said:Benpointer said:
Not going to happen. No way will the Tories risk another GE this side of 2022.GIN1138 said:
Time is so short this will have to be a quick swap by the Parliamentary Prty again IMO (followed by a general election)Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just does not work that way. Boris will not get my vote and it is not certain he would be put in the final twoGIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.
But there's no way they can risk betraying Brexit as Theresa May is planning to do because they will be finished for a generation.
a) A good proportion of Tory (and swing) voters were Remainers
b) Many Leavers will be satisfied if we LEave the EU but stay in a CU.
c) Who are hardline Brexiters going to vote for if not the Tories?0 -
I don’t think the Tories should be terrified by a general election this year. The topic will be Brexit, and the question will be:
“Should the British government have the ability to control immigration from the EU?”
They just need to bang on about it for 6 weeks, avoid obvious mistakes like skipping debates and threatening the homes of the elderly, and they will get a majority.
There are some risks, of course.0 -
What on earth are you talking about. In the first instance 48 letters need to be received and TM can just stand her ground and challenge the party to vote against her. If that happened a leadership race would take place with hustings and then the two candidates would be put to the membership. This process would not be quick and then following that you would have an impotent new PM, still having to follow the HOC mathsGIN1138 said:
Time is so short this will have to be a quick swap by the Parliamentary Party again IMO (followed by a general election)Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just does not work that way. Boris will not get my vote and it is not certain he would be put in the final twoGIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.0 -
+1Big_G_NorthWales said:
What on earth are you talking about. In the first instance 48 letters need to be received and TM can just stand her ground and challenge the party to vote against her. If that happened a leadership race would take place with hustings and then the two candidates would be put to the membership. This process would not be quick and then following that you would have an impotent new PM, still having to follow the HOC mathsGIN1138 said:
Time is so short this will have to be a quick swap by the Parliamentary Party again IMO (followed by a general election)Big_G_NorthWales said:
Just does not work that way. Boris will not get my vote and it is not certain he would be put in the final twoGIN1138 said:Gardenwalker said:
Of course, any hard Brexiter is not going to have the numbers in the Commons.GIN1138 said:
Don't be too sure.Stark_Dawning said:
If I was an anti Customs Union leaver I'd be worried by that. Sounds for all the world as if the government has made its decision and Liam and his trade deals will be thrown out with the trash.williamglenn said:Looks like Fox is surplus to requirements.
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/993578135831670786?s=21
There's just as much chance it will be Theresa being thrown out with the trash... Things are getting very, very serious for her now I think.
Unless they are planning a Nixon goes to China moment.
I assume the plan will have to be a quick leadership change (probably to Boris) and then if the Commons and Lords continues to act up another general election....
I've felt for some time the chances of another general election in 2018 are growing stronger.
Well put Big_G!0 -
Benpointer said:
c) Who are hardline Brexiters going to vote for if not the Tories?
Well its possible Frage will start up a political party again but I suspect most of them will just sit on their hands and not bother voting again.0
This discussion has been closed.