politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A message to political leaders – Remember, you are mortal.
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Will it? Facebook and Twitter seems to be getting dropped by the youth in favour of Snapchat and Instagram the latter of which is owned by ... Facebook.david_herdson said:
I agree. One that will be made worse if his deputy can't give any answer because he'd have to refer it upwards.AndyJS said:
It's the wrong decision by Zuckerberg. Terrible public relations decision.Dura_Ace said:
You can't blame him. He is a more important person than any MP.AndyJS said:"Mark Zuckerberg snubs MPs over Cambridge Analytica row
Mark Zuckerberg has declined to meet MPs on the digital, culture, media and sport committee and has offered to send a deputy in his place as the row over Facebook’s role in political campaigns intensifies."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mark-zuckerberg-snubs-mps-over-cambridge-analytica-row-pjsjfrfqv
For all that, Facebook will suffer more if it doesn't address its growing reputation among youth for being 'for old people'.0 -
But you are going to get an ever increasing number of multiple hits, especially in an agrarian society. My wife's family was for many generations fisher folk out of a tiny village called Auchmithy. They must have been inbred like .... let's not go there.Pulpstar said:
Tricky to track every ancestor back over 500 years though, if a generation is 25.5 years then that yields just over a million great (*18) grandparents.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/978583106339958784
Edit, like Cleopatra! She is Cleopatra reborn. Whew.0 -
I'm loving the kinder, gentler politics portrayed by the 'remainer rump'.Anazina said:
Alastair has my support. I dare say that his failure to attract the support of PB's pitchfork army of bumpkins, curtain twitchers, xenophobes and fruit cakes won't cause him too many sleepless nights.ReggieCide said:
I suspect that what you say will find support with most of us, but certainly not AM. I'm sure AM will continue posting in the same vein and power to his elbow. For me, it brings back fond memories of Saturday morning pictures (for those old enough to remember them), watching the serial villain make his appearance, with appropriate musical accompaniment, and joining in the communal hissing and booing of the watching audience. Reading AM's posts is a joy, so long as you remember to hiss and boo.kle4 said:
snipAlastairMeeks said:
You can see Brexit shrivel the IQ of otherwise moderately intelligent posters. It’s utterly malign.0 -
I agree with Alistair more often than not, and really admire his determination to go on speaking his mind despite torrents of personal abuse thrown at him. I hope he carries on.Anazina said:
Alastair has my support. I dare say that his failure to attract the support of PB's pitchfork army of bumpkins, curtain twitchers, xenophobes and fruit cakes won't cause him too many sleepless nights.
On this issue, regardless of who outed whom and which campaign overspent what, I cannot help seeing it as an irrelevant distraction.
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Are you her Ptolemy ?DavidL said:
But you are going to get an ever increasing number of multiple hits, especially in an agrarian society. My wife's family was for many generations fisher folk out of a tiny village called Auchmithy. They must have been inbred like .... let's not go there.Pulpstar said:
Tricky to track every ancestor back over 500 years though, if a generation is 25.5 years then that yields just over a million great (*18) grandparents.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/978583106339958784
Edit, like Cleopatra! She is Cleopatra reborn. Whew.0 -
Doubt that's the reason somehow. Whoever is in power, the BBC can't afford to alienate the government of the day, lest they take their revenge via the license fee. This explains both their Remain lean pre-referendum and their attempt to be more balanced since. If God forbid we do get a Corbyn government you certainly won't be able to rely on the BBC to go all outraged Blairite.HYUFD said:
Despite clear Remain leanings in the referendum campaign the BBC has now accepted the voters voted to Leave unlike some we could mention!
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I may be if she ever gets around to reading this!Pulpstar said:
Are you her Ptolemy ?DavidL said:
But you are going to get an ever increasing number of multiple hits, especially in an agrarian society. My wife's family was for many generations fisher folk out of a tiny village called Auchmithy. They must have been inbred like .... let's not go there.Pulpstar said:
Tricky to track every ancestor back over 500 years though, if a generation is 25.5 years then that yields just over a million great (*18) grandparents.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/978583106339958784
Edit, like Cleopatra! She is Cleopatra reborn. Whew.0 -
Yes I definitely feel the BBC (more so TV and radio rather than the website) have got their head round it and are attempting to show some balance, rather than allowing what I presume is a significant amount of London Europhiles in their ranks hold sway over their output.HYUFD said:
Despite clear Remain leanings in the referendum campaign the BBC has now accepted the voters voted to Leave unlike some we could mention!Brom said:
The same Farage that has been on twice in the 21 months since the referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yup, the BBC is so Pro Brexit it is embarrassing.Pulpstar said:Sign of no anti-Brexit bias in the BBC ?
The anti Brexit march in Leeds on Saturday seems to have gone completely un-noticed by the beeb ?
They have Farage on every other week on Question Time.
The Cadwalladr thing is just very strange, you're expecting a slow drip, drip and then finally the big reveal but it doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Combine that with Carole herself opening her tweets with "WOW" and "This is extraordinary" to the most mundane 'revelations' you could think of and one could be forgiven for thinking she doesn't actually have the material to back up the size of the accusations.
We're now deep into tin foil conspiracy territory, with a fairly insignificant player with pink hair who fancies himself as Edward Snowdon who has infiltrated the system and will now bring down the government. The BBC were entirely right to be sceptical about this story and if Cadwalladr is sitting on something big she best hurry up with it...0 -
No material...Brom said:The Cadwalladr thing is just very strange, you're expecting a slow drip, drip and then finally the big reveal but it doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Combine that with Carole herself opening her tweets with "WOW" and "This is extraordinary" to the most mundane 'revelations' you could think of and one could be forgiven for thinking she doesn't actually have the material to back up the size of the accusations.
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/9785343483025080370 -
Yep.Dura_Ace said:
Facebook has 2 billion active users. He doesn't give the slightest fuck what a load of befuddled and/or pissed politicians from a marginally relevant country on the other side of the Atlantic think.AndyJS said:
It's the wrong decision by Zuckerberg. Terrible public relations decision.Dura_Ace said:
You can't blame him. He is a more important person than any MP.AndyJS said:"Mark Zuckerberg snubs MPs over Cambridge Analytica row
Mark Zuckerberg has declined to meet MPs on the digital, culture, media and sport committee and has offered to send a deputy in his place as the row over Facebook’s role in political campaigns intensifies."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mark-zuckerberg-snubs-mps-over-cambridge-analytica-row-pjsjfrfqv
I suspect the only impact (and it's really the US criticism/scandal that will have done it) is it may have put off Zuckerberg from running for President.0 -
Many of us would have the same ancestors, as the population was so much smaller.Philip_Thompson said:
It probably doesn't actually. You'd almost certainly find the same people repeatedly in your tree if you go that far back.Pulpstar said:
Tricky to track every ancestor back over 500 years though, if a generation is 25.5 years then that yields just over a million great (*18) grandparents.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/978583106339958784
Interestingly, it would give us a period in the early part of King Henry VIIIs reign.0 -
Nothing makes me feel older than that.david_herdson said:
I agree. One that will be made worse if his deputy can't give any answer because he'd have to refer it upwards.AndyJS said:
It's the wrong decision by Zuckerberg. Terrible public relations decision.Dura_Ace said:
You can't blame him. He is a more important person than any MP.AndyJS said:"Mark Zuckerberg snubs MPs over Cambridge Analytica row
Mark Zuckerberg has declined to meet MPs on the digital, culture, media and sport committee and has offered to send a deputy in his place as the row over Facebook’s role in political campaigns intensifies."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mark-zuckerberg-snubs-mps-over-cambridge-analytica-row-pjsjfrfqv
For all that, Facebook will suffer more if it doesn't address its growing reputation among youth for being 'for old people'.
It’s only 12 years old, FFS.0 -
There may also be the descendants of the Clovis people - although scientists now think there were pre-Clovis people who came through a region called Berengaria near the present Bering Straits.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/9785831063399587840 -
Indeed. And the further you go back, the more people did live in small villages. That said, the more chance you get of some exception, whether that be a link up into the internationally mobile classes - soldiers, merchants, royalty etc - or to some great disruptive event that forced or brought large-scale population movements.DavidL said:
But you are going to get an ever increasing number of multiple hits, especially in an agrarian society. My wife's family was for many generations fisher folk out of a tiny village called Auchmithy. They must have been inbred like .... let's not go there.Pulpstar said:
Tricky to track every ancestor back over 500 years though, if a generation is 25.5 years then that yields just over a million great (*18) grandparents.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/978583106339958784
Edit, like Cleopatra! She is Cleopatra reborn. Whew.
FWIW, as far as we've traced - which is about 5-10 generation, depending on which lines you follow, I'm 100% English (mostly SW Yorkshire / Westmorland), but my son is one-sixteenth French - my wife's great-grandparents on the female line met and married during WWI.0 -
Though of course the voters elect the government ultimately and pay the license feeHHemmelig said:
Doubt that's the reason somehow. Whoever is in power, the BBC can't afford to alienate the government of the day, lest they take their revenge via the license fee. This explains both their Remain lean pre-referendum and their attempt to be more balanced since. If God forbid we do get a Corbyn government you certainly won't be able to rely on the BBC to go all outraged Blairite.HYUFD said:
Despite clear Remain leanings in the referendum campaign the BBC has now accepted the voters voted to Leave unlike some we could mention!0 -
bliss, two .... or?Anazina said:
Alastair has my support. I dare say that his failure to attract the support of PB's pitchfork army of bumpkins, curtain twitchers, xenophobes and fruit cakes won't cause him too many sleepless nights.ReggieCide said:
I suspect that what you say will find support with most of us, but certainly not AM. I'm sure AM will continue posting in the same vein and power to his elbow. For me, it brings back fond memories of Saturday morning pictures (for those old enough to remember them), watching the serial villain make his appearance, with appropriate musical accompaniment, and joining in the communal hissing and booing of the watching audience. Reading AM's posts is a joy, so long as you remember to hiss and boo.kle4 said:
snipAlastairMeeks said:
You can see Brexit shrivel the IQ of otherwise moderately intelligent posters. It’s utterly malign.0 -
What about these 25 million chaps? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_Mexicoslade said:
There may also be the descendants of the Clovis people - although scientists now think there were pre-Clovis people who came through a region called Berengaria near the present Bering Straits.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/9785831063399587840 -
Yes there is an agenda thereBrom said:
Yes I definitely feel the BBC (more so TV and radio rather than the website) have got their head round it and are attempting to show some balance, rather than allowing what I presume is a significant amount of London Europhiles in their ranks hold sway over their output.HYUFD said:
Despite clear Remain leanings in the referendum campaign the BBC has now accepted the voters voted to Leave unlike some we could mention!Brom said:
The same Farage that has been on twice in the 21 months since the referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yup, the BBC is so Pro Brexit it is embarrassing.Pulpstar said:Sign of no anti-Brexit bias in the BBC ?
The anti Brexit march in Leeds on Saturday seems to have gone completely un-noticed by the beeb ?
They have Farage on every other week on Question Time.
The Cadwalladr thing is just very strange, you're expecting a slow drip, drip and then finally the big reveal but it doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Combine that with Carole herself opening her tweets with "WOW" and "This is extraordinary" to the most mundane 'revelations' you could think of and one could be forgiven for thinking she doesn't actually have the material to back up the size of the accusations.
We're now deep into tin foil conspiracy territory, with a fairly insignificant player with pink hair who fancies himself as Edward Snowdon who has infiltrated the system and will now bring down the government. The BBC were entirely right to be sceptical about this story and if Cadwalladr is sitting on something big she best hurry up with it...0 -
I think the Inuit might gently contest your view.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/9785831063399587840 -
I sincerely doubt many in the real world give a rat's ass about any of this. Especially as it's fairly common knowledge that Remain massively outspent Leave if all the government campaigning is included. There's no chance of the referendum being overturned so why waste our time with this. As a Remainer I want the government's priorities to be a deal keeping trade flowing, planes flying, business moving, tourists coming & going etc etc.Scott_P said:
No material...Brom said:The Cadwalladr thing is just very strange, you're expecting a slow drip, drip and then finally the big reveal but it doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Combine that with Carole herself opening her tweets with "WOW" and "This is extraordinary" to the most mundane 'revelations' you could think of and one could be forgiven for thinking she doesn't actually have the material to back up the size of the accusations.
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/9785343483025080370 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
Mr. Royale, you're probably less than half the age Antigonus Monopthalmus was when he died, if that helps.0 -
So Facebook is for old people now? Glad I never joined the bloody thing. Clearly another way of marking time. Ditto WhatsApp, that will be old hat by next yearCasino_Royale said:
Nothing makes me feel older than that.david_herdson said:
I agree. One that will be made worse if his deputy can't give any answer because he'd have to refer it upwards.AndyJS said:
It's the wrong decision by Zuckerberg. Terrible public relations decision.Dura_Ace said:
You can't blame him. He is a more important person than any MP.AndyJS said:"Mark Zuckerberg snubs MPs over Cambridge Analytica row
Mark Zuckerberg has declined to meet MPs on the digital, culture, media and sport committee and has offered to send a deputy in his place as the row over Facebook’s role in political campaigns intensifies."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mark-zuckerberg-snubs-mps-over-cambridge-analytica-row-pjsjfrfqv
For all that, Facebook will suffer more if it doesn't address its growing reputation among youth for being 'for old people'.
It’s only 12 years old, FFS.
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100% agreed.HHemmelig said:
I sincerely doubt many in the real world give a rat's ass about any of this. Especially as it's fairly common knowledge that Remain massively outspent Leave if all the government campaigning is included. There's no chance of the referendum being overturned so why waste our time with this. As a Remainer I want the government's priorities to be a deal keeping trade flowing, planes flying, business moving, tourists coming & going etc etc.Scott_P said:
No material...Brom said:The Cadwalladr thing is just very strange, you're expecting a slow drip, drip and then finally the big reveal but it doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Combine that with Carole herself opening her tweets with "WOW" and "This is extraordinary" to the most mundane 'revelations' you could think of and one could be forgiven for thinking she doesn't actually have the material to back up the size of the accusations.
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/978534348302508037
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In other news:
13:52 Following the collapse of BHS, the insolvency service has said it will bring proceedings to disqualify Dominic Chappell, who bought the department store group from Sir Philip Green from running a company for up to 15 years. Its full verdict:
"We can confirm the Insolvency Service has written to Dominic Chappell and three other former directors of BHS and connected companies informing them that we intend to bring proceedings to have them disqualified from running or controlling companies for periods up to 15 years.
We can also confirm that we have written to Sir Philip Green, also a former director of BHS, informing him that we do not currently intend bring disqualification proceedings against him.
As this matter may now be tested in the Court it is not appropriate to comment further."
https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2018/mar/27/ftse-100-and-european-markets-set-to-rise-after-wall-street-surge-business-live0 -
The DNA of the Clovis people closely matches that of Native American Indiansslade said:
There may also be the descendants of the Clovis people - although scientists now think there were pre-Clovis people who came through a region called Berengaria near the present Bering Straits.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/978583106339958784
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_culture0 -
fake news - can you have news that is that old?GIN1138 said:
LOL! But not all of the millions of people that were murdered?williamglenn said:Cobyn on the two mistakes made by the USSR...
If there are two areas where I think grave mistakes were made by the Soviet Union, it was the inability of the system to recognise the importance of the national question and the way in which the Communist Party of the Soviet Union became an extremely elitist body.
We have to organise together in this country but also internationally.
https://libcom.org/history/i-am-concerned-break-soviet-union-leadership-it-gave-jeremy-corbyns-words-wisdom-stalini
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The Inuit were never in what is now the mainland USA (Alaska excepted) though you are right they do cover northern Canada but also Greenland which is part of DenmarkAnazina said:
I think the Inuit might gently contest your view.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/9785831063399587840 -
@kle4
I’m a little perplexed. First, I’m not a person of interest, so I’m not sure why I merit six paragraphs of analysis. (I am constantly amazed at how much effort people put into parsing my words. I scarcely need to self-analyse, given that.)
Secondly, I’m not sure what you want from me. You seem to acknowledge that I am entitled to feel disgusted by the conduct of Leavers and to express that view as much as I like. And I do. In weeks like this, when the self-same people who fell in behind xenophobic lies are professing to be appalled by anti-Semitism, the need to do so is compelling. Those xenophobic lies did far more damage than one anti-Semitic mural.
Everyone on here is politically aware. Leavers on here made their choices in the full understanding of the type of campaign being fought. Having made their choices, they must be prepared to deal with the reactions of those who disagree. There is no time limit on being called out for disgusting behaviour, especially when it will have consequences for years to come.
I'm not trying to persuade anyone. That would be pointless on here. I simply give my analysis and I don't sugar-coat it. As it happens, I try to be constructive. If something is to be salvaged out of this national disaster, Leavers need to start to understand the nature of the problem that they have created.
You can disagree. I'm sure you do. But don't expect me to pretend that I'm moving on. Until Leavers are ready to confront the nature of their own victory, Britain won't move on.0 -
The rule of law is not "an irrelevant distraction". Elections have been overturned when election law is breached.HHemmelig said:
I agree with Alistair more often than not, and really admire his determination to go on speaking his mind despite torrents of personal abuse thrown at him. I hope he carries on.Anazina said:
Alastair has my support. I dare say that his failure to attract the support of PB's pitchfork army of bumpkins, curtain twitchers, xenophobes and fruit cakes won't cause him too many sleepless nights.
On this issue, regardless of who outed whom and which campaign overspent what, I cannot help seeing it as an irrelevant distraction.0 -
It's a good point though. 20 odd years ago Friends Reunited was a kind of Facebook of its day and disappeared without trace when the Next Big Thing came along. I doubt many people younger than me (early 40s) have even heard of it.Casino_Royale said:
Nothing makes me feel older than that.
It’s only 12 years old, FFS.0 -
You've hit the nail on the head. It might chime with the 1% like Scott who live for twitter and want a 2nd ref but to everyone else it's all a bit meh. For a political scandal to really take off it needs not merely a bending of the rules but a burning down of the rulebook entirely.HHemmelig said:
I sincerely doubt many in the real world give a rat's ass about any of this. Especially as it's fairly common knowledge that Remain massively outspent Leave if all the government campaigning is included. There's no chance of the referendum being overturned so why waste our time with this. As a Remainer I want the government's priorities to be a deal keeping trade flowing, planes flying, business moving, tourists coming & going etc etc.Scott_P said:
No material...Brom said:The Cadwalladr thing is just very strange, you're expecting a slow drip, drip and then finally the big reveal but it doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Combine that with Carole herself opening her tweets with "WOW" and "This is extraordinary" to the most mundane 'revelations' you could think of and one could be forgiven for thinking she doesn't actually have the material to back up the size of the accusations.
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/978534348302508037
For this to resonate with the public it needs to be tied in to Boris or Farage rigging something.
If the best she can find is that Dominic Cummings was aware of some leave campaign overspending (which it seems he isn't) the public will just shrug and say "Well I don't know who Dominic Cummings is, and to be honest 2 years later I don't really care."0 -
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I don't think AM needed any outing.HHemmelig said:
I agree with Alistair more often than not, and really admire his determination to go on speaking his mind despite torrents of personal abuse thrown at him. I hope he carries on.Anazina said:
Alastair has my support. I dare say that his failure to attract the support of PB's pitchfork army of bumpkins, curtain twitchers, xenophobes and fruit cakes won't cause him too many sleepless nights.
On this issue, regardless of who outed whom and which campaign overspent what, I cannot help seeing it as an irrelevant distraction.0 -
Er, you said North America not the Mainland USA. As it is often said on here – it harms you not to admit you were wrong, yet you never do it. It's hilarious.HYUFD said:
The Inuit were never in what is now the mainland USA (Alaska excepted) though you are right they do cover northern Canada but also Greenland which is part of DenmarkAnazina said:
I think the Inuit might gently contest your view.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/978583106339958784
P.S. Greenland is part of North America albeit owned by Denmark.0 -
Centre field? Must be silly-mid-on.Scott_P said:
0 -
An election in Barchester North constituency yes (though only very very occasionally). Resulting in a mildly interesting by election that nobody outside Westminster much notices.logical_song said:
The rule of law is not "an irrelevant distraction". Elections have been overturned when election law is breached.HHemmelig said:
I agree with Alistair more often than not, and really admire his determination to go on speaking his mind despite torrents of personal abuse thrown at him. I hope he carries on.Anazina said:
Alastair has my support. I dare say that his failure to attract the support of PB's pitchfork army of bumpkins, curtain twitchers, xenophobes and fruit cakes won't cause him too many sleepless nights.
On this issue, regardless of who outed whom and which campaign overspent what, I cannot help seeing it as an irrelevant distraction.
Are you seriously suggesting overturning an entire national referendum result? You must be off your rocker.0 -
I think we have a fair idea of the "something big" she is sitting on and she takes it with her wherever she goes.Brom said:
Yes I definitely feel the BBC (more so TV and radio rather than the website) have got their head round it and are attempting to show some balance, rather than allowing what I presume is a significant amount of London Europhiles in their ranks hold sway over their output.HYUFD said:
Despite clear Remain leanings in the referendum campaign the BBC has now accepted the voters voted to Leave unlike some we could mention!Brom said:
The same Farage that has been on twice in the 21 months since the referendum.TheScreamingEagles said:
Yup, the BBC is so Pro Brexit it is embarrassing.Pulpstar said:Sign of no anti-Brexit bias in the BBC ?
The anti Brexit march in Leeds on Saturday seems to have gone completely un-noticed by the beeb ?
They have Farage on every other week on Question Time.
The Cadwalladr thing is just very strange, you're expecting a slow drip, drip and then finally the big reveal but it doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Combine that with Carole herself opening her tweets with "WOW" and "This is extraordinary" to the most mundane 'revelations' you could think of and one could be forgiven for thinking she doesn't actually have the material to back up the size of the accusations.
We're now deep into tin foil conspiracy territory, with a fairly insignificant player with pink hair who fancies himself as Edward Snowdon who has infiltrated the system and will now bring down the government. The BBC were entirely right to be sceptical about this story and if Cadwalladr is sitting on something big she best hurry up with it...0 -
You may not be prepared to move on.AlastairMeeks said:You can disagree. I'm sure you do. But don't expect me to pretend that I'm moving on. Until Leavers are ready to confront the nature of their own victory, Britain won't move on.
Britain already has.0 -
Must have been a good lunch to provoke that sort of tweetScott_P said:0 -
Liquid lunch, was it?Scott_P said:0 -
Morris_Dancer said:
Miss Cyclefree, do you think the nature of their relationship should've been stated but behind closed doors (ie to those investigating), or not at all?
Two points:-Richard_Nabavi said:
Hang on a sec, what's this 'protecting his confidentiality and anonymity' stuff? The guy had plastered himself all over the front pages. If he was a whistleblower who wanted to avoid publicity, he could have quite easily approached the Electoral Commission with his information in complete confidence. He can't have it both ways - complete freedom for him to smear anyone with massive publicity, and total confidentiality about his own position in the story.Cyclefree said:
Whistleblowing is my area of expertise. When someone whistleblows, any half decent organisation has a number of very important obligations, including maintaining the whistleblower’s confidentiality (and anonymity, if asked), a thorough investigation and not to take any form of retaliation against the whistleblower for having blown the whistle. In some sectors, there are specific regulatory and legal obligations as well as the general legislation.Elliot said:
It is not victimisation for the context of a relationship to come out when charged with career-threatening allegations about communications in that relationship.AlastairMeeks said:
It would have been entirely possible to have said “we knew each other very well socially as well as professionally”. Outing someone is a form of victimisation. The Leaver defence appears to be that the victim was asking for it.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, normally I'd agree entirely, but if it's relevant to the potential motive behind the claims, it can't be ignored. Not sure what form (if any) an investigation will take, so perhaps a private disclosure to investigating authorities would've been optimal, but I fear the 'whistleblower' has been naive at best by not anticipating this would come out.
By outing this man, those who have done it have certainly broken the spirit of the principle of non-retaliation and may, depending on his precise employment status, have breached the law. It is serious. And, frankly, on a human level a horrible thing to have done. Coming out should be for the person concerned not for others to do.
1. There is a duty not to retaliate against a whistleblower regardless of whether they are anonymous or not.
2. As an investigator I would like to know of any personal relationship as background/context. But it is very important to investigate the allegations properly and not dismiss them because one of the parties involved may have mixed (or even malicious) motives.0 -
I think "rat's arse" overstates the level of public interestHHemmelig said:
I sincerely doubt many in the real world give a rat's ass about any of this. Especially as it's fairly common knowledge that Remain massively outspent Leave if all the government campaigning is included. There's no chance of the referendum being overturned so why waste our time with this. As a Remainer I want the government's priorities to be a deal keeping trade flowing, planes flying, business moving, tourists coming & going etc etc.Scott_P said:
No material...Brom said:The Cadwalladr thing is just very strange, you're expecting a slow drip, drip and then finally the big reveal but it doesn't appear to be going anywhere. Combine that with Carole herself opening her tweets with "WOW" and "This is extraordinary" to the most mundane 'revelations' you could think of and one could be forgiven for thinking she doesn't actually have the material to back up the size of the accusations.
https://twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/9785343483025080370 -
I know. PBC is older by some way.Casino_Royale said:
Nothing makes me feel older than that.david_herdson said:
I agree. One that will be made worse if his deputy can't give any answer because he'd have to refer it upwards.AndyJS said:
It's the wrong decision by Zuckerberg. Terrible public relations decision.Dura_Ace said:
You can't blame him. He is a more important person than any MP.AndyJS said:"Mark Zuckerberg snubs MPs over Cambridge Analytica row
Mark Zuckerberg has declined to meet MPs on the digital, culture, media and sport committee and has offered to send a deputy in his place as the row over Facebook’s role in political campaigns intensifies."
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/mark-zuckerberg-snubs-mps-over-cambridge-analytica-row-pjsjfrfqv
For all that, Facebook will suffer more if it doesn't address its growing reputation among youth for being 'for old people'.
It’s only 12 years old, FFS.0 -
Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.0 -
Would look forward to that happening in South ShieldsSandyRentool said:
Liquid lunch, was it?Scott_P said:0 -
So, people who wished to leave the EU but aren't xenophobic should have felt compelled to vote Remain in your view? The referendum was their one opportunity to achieve what they wanted (leaving the EU) yet they should have voted for the opposite outcome because of some of the messaging.AlastairMeeks said:@kle4
Everyone on here is politically aware. Leavers on here made their choices in the full understanding of the type of campaign being fought. Having made their choices, they must be prepared to deal with the reactions of those who disagree. There is no time limit on being called out for disgusting behaviour, especially when it will have consequences for years to come.
This continual desire to tar everyone with the same brush really is quite distasteful, especially when it ignores the reality that the opportunity to vote on the UK's membership of the EU isn't something you get to do every other week.
0 -
Fantastic ...... boo, hissAlastairMeeks said:@kle4
I’m a little perplexed. First, I’m not a person of interest, so I’m not sure why I merit six paragraphs of analysis. (I am constantly amazed at how much effort people put into parsing my words. I scarcely need to self-analyse, given that.)
Secondly, I’m not sure what you want from me. You seem to acknowledge that I am entitled to feel disgusted by the conduct of Leavers and to express that view as much as I like. And I do. In weeks like this, when the self-same people who fell in behind xenophobic lies are professing to be appalled by anti-Semitism, the need to do so is compelling. Those xenophobic lies did far more damage than one anti-Semitic mural.
Everyone on here is politically aware. Leavers on here made their choices in the full understanding of the type of campaign being fought. Having made their choices, they must be prepared to deal with the reactions of those who disagree. There is no time limit on being called out for disgusting behaviour, especially when it will have consequences for years to come.
I'm not trying to persuade anyone. That would be pointless on here. I simply give my analysis and I don't sugar-coat it. As it happens, I try to be constructive. If something is to be salvaged out of this national disaster, Leavers need to start to understand the nature of the problem that they have created.
You can disagree. I'm sure you do. But don't expect me to pretend that I'm moving on. Until Leavers are ready to confront the nature of their own victory, Britain won't move on.0 -
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.0 -
Not sure, but I think it was from Bert Fegg’s Nasty Book for Boys and Girls. It was a little Python side project of Chapman and Palin, that had ideas later used in Ripping Yarns. Jolly obscure anyway!ReggieCide said:
You learn something new every day here. I hadn't realised that amoebas were so posh.MarqueeMark said:
The Neanderthals have a much stronger claim to all the territory of the EU....Charles said:
They owned it for about 170 years (1780 ish to 1959 ish). Ukraine owned it for 60 years.RoyalBlue said:Russia’s claim to Crimea on grounds of history, language, nationality and self-determination was very strong. There was no good reason to resort to military action, but Putin needed something to pep up his ratings.
Does that make Russia’s claim 3 tines as strong as Ukraine’s?
The Giray’s owned Crimea for 550 years. Does that make tge R claim 3 times as strong as Russia’s?
Although they are still back of the queue to an amoeba called Gerald.0 -
I haven't delved far into my family tree, although I know that all Fears are related to each other. It's a name that is very specific to the Glastonbury/Wells area of Somerset. Several of them then moved to South Wales c.1900, when the coalmines were being developed.david_herdson said:
Indeed. And the further you go back, the more people did live in small villages. That said, the more chance you get of some exception, whether that be a link up into the internationally mobile classes - soldiers, merchants, royalty etc - or to some great disruptive event that forced or brought large-scale population movements.DavidL said:
But you are going to get an ever increasing number of multiple hits, especially in an agrarian society. My wife's family was for many generations fisher folk out of a tiny village called Auchmithy. They must have been inbred like .... let's not go there.Pulpstar said:
Tricky to track every ancestor back over 500 years though, if a generation is 25.5 years then that yields just over a million great (*18) grandparents.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/978583106339958784
Edit, like Cleopatra! She is Cleopatra reborn. Whew.
FWIW, as far as we've traced - which is about 5-10 generation, depending on which lines you follow, I'm 100% English (mostly SW Yorkshire / Westmorland), but my son is one-sixteenth French - my wife's great-grandparents on the female line met and married during WWI.
On my mother's side, I know that one ancestor, Lieutenant Tubman, was a German mercenary at the siege of Londonderry.
0 -
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.0 -
“Some of the messaging”. That was the prospectus offered. You thought xenophobic lies were a price worth paying to get your heart’s desire, even as they contaminated the nature of British politics for years to come. That was your choice.chrisoxon said:
So, people who wished to leave the EU but aren't xenophobic should have felt compelled to vote Remain in your view? The referendum was their one opportunity to achieve what they wanted (leaving the EU) yet they should have voted for the opposite outcome because of some of the messaging.AlastairMeeks said:@kle4
Everyone on here is politically aware. Leavers on here made their choices in the full understanding of the type of campaign being fought. Having made their choices, they must be prepared to deal with the reactions of those who disagree. There is no time limit on being called out for disgusting behaviour, especially when it will have consequences for years to come.
This continual desire to tar everyone with the same brush really is quite distasteful, especially when it ignores the reality that the opportunity to vote on the UK's membership of the EU isn't something you get to do every other week.
I’m sure you would show just as much latitude to those who vote Labour in the knowledge of Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Semitic dalliances.0 -
So that is 17.4m people at least that are "guilty" according to the Court of Meeks.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
Surely those that didn't vote are equally as guilty of not standing up to be counted and voting against the question on the ballot which was obviously : "put a cross by the answer "leave" if you support a prospectus of xenophobic lies"
0 -
Mr. Meeks, that's simply not true. You've just created a strawman to attack those with a differing perspective to you on the EU by pointing at them and denouncing them as xenophobes (quite surprising given in the early stages of the campaign you asserted you had an open mind, only to later state you couldn't vote for the same side as Nigel Farage, disregarding the merits of the arguments for and against the EU).
Not only that, had the pro-EU side spent just a little less time banging on about Farage, the 'back of the queue', xenophobia of those horrid 'little Englanders' [I still recall with the same incredulity those PBers who actually thought it was smart of Cameron to say that repeatedly], they would've won. The positive case for the EU was scarcely made at all.0 -
The public remembers two things about the Leave campaign: immigration and the promise on the bus. Sovereignty didn’t even register in the public’s memory of the campaign.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.0 -
It was a bit of both, but I do think @AlastairMeeks is correct to point out that those clutching their pearls at Jezza associating with anti-semitic racists should extract the beam from their own eye first.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.
On the other hand a bit of good Brexit news, the prototype Brexit passport is released:
https://twitter.com/TimSuttonC/status/978265593550909440?s=190 -
Both are about sovereignty. That we determine who we let into our nation and we determine how our money gets spent.AlastairMeeks said:
The public remembers two things about the Leave campaign: immigration and the promise on the bus. Sovereignty didn’t even register in the public’s memory of the campaign.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.
Neither is xenophobic.0 -
1. I don't think there is any such duty in a case like this, but even if it were, it's not retaliation, he's just responding (in very gentle terms) to very high profile allegations made against him personally. What's he supposed to do, lie about the relationship? It's not as though he said anything discreditable or irrelevant about the whistleblower.Cyclefree said:Two points:-
1. There is a duty not to retaliate against a whistleblower regardless of whether they are anonymous or not.
2. As an investigator I would like to know of any personal relationship as background/context. But it is very important to investigate the allegations properly and not dismiss them because one of the parties involved may have mixed (or even malicious) motives.
2. This isn't about an investigation - it's about a war of words being waged against Vote Leave on the front pages, for reasons which clearly have absolutely nothing to do with a proper investigation. If the lawyers and the whistleblower wanted a proper investigation, they would have prepared their evidence and presented in to the Electoral Commission and/or the police in confidence, rather than plastering it over the front pages (which is likely to compromise any potential court case) and then running away complaining about the resultant publicity. They can't have it both ways.0 -
I think he gets paid a £1 every time he says xenophobic lies.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.0 -
F1: Bahrain and China next, back-to-back races. Will be interesting to see if the Ferrari advantage on the straights is maintained. If so, that'll be indicative of an actual edge, if not, the advantage over Mercedes in Australia will be down to differing set-up.
Also, if they have such an edge that will make roadblock strategies (Raikkonen holding people up for Vettel, mostly) viable. Being faster in the twisty bits only works when you're ahead or corner passing is possible. At many circuits now, that's tricky. Also, the Mercedes still looks rough in traffic.0 -
Because all you busw@nkers keep going on about itAlastairMeeks said:
The public remembers two things about the Leave campaign: immigration and the promise on the bus. Sovereignty didn’t even register in the public’s memory of the campaign.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.0 -
Indeed, and incredibly many times over the further back you go. Even working on a larger average generation - 30 years - then you'd have approximately:Casino_Royale said:
Many of us would have the same ancestors, as the population was so much smaller.Philip_Thompson said:
It probably doesn't actually. You'd almost certainly find the same people repeatedly in your tree if you go that far back.Pulpstar said:
Tricky to track every ancestor back over 500 years though, if a generation is 25.5 years then that yields just over a million great (*18) grandparents.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/978583106339958784
Interestingly, it would give us a period in the early part of King Henry VIIIs reign.
300 years - English Civil War - one thousand ancestors
600 years - late Middle Ages - one million ancestors
900 years - Early Norman era - one billion ancestors
1500 years - immediate post-Roman era - one million billion ancestors
2100 years - late Bronze era (Britain) - one billion trillion ancestors
Even allowing for social and geographical immobility, there will be few people who haven't recently immigrated to an area from another part of the globe, who are not related to just about everybody in their locality going back little more than a thousand years.0 -
There’s no point using elegant variation on a group of people desperate to deny what they willingly connived in.Casino_Royale said:
I think he gets paid a £1 every time he says xenophobic lies.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.0 -
Beautiful. The self righteousness is perfectionAlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.0 -
Translation: Waah I lost and it's so unfairAlastairMeeks said:
There’s no point using elegant variation on a group of people desperate to deny what they willingly connived in.Casino_Royale said:
I think he gets paid a £1 every time he says xenophobic lies.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.0 -
We were all so stupid as we read the question on the ballot paper and took it literally and at face value - an easy mistake to make. We should have interpreted it as a referendum on the support for xenophobic lies - wherever they appear.Casino_Royale said:
I think he gets paid a £1 every time he says xenophobic lies.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.
A bit like believing Cameron when he said Turkey might join the EU.0 -
A trivial distraction to give us a break from serious stuff.
Assuming he really means this, proof that a man can be both highly intelligent and utterly daft:
https://twitter.com/ProfBrianCox/status/9782054726952181760 -
If there is a positive case for the EU other than "more of the same", then I'd like to hear itMorris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, that's simply not true. You've just created a strawman to attack those with a differing perspective to you on the EU by pointing at them and denouncing them as xenophobes (quite surprising given in the early stages of the campaign you asserted you had an open mind, only to later state you couldn't vote for the same side as Nigel Farage, disregarding the merits of the arguments for and against the EU).
Not only that, had the pro-EU side spent just a little less time banging on about Farage, the 'back of the queue', xenophobia of those horrid 'little Englanders' [I still recall with the same incredulity those PBers who actually thought it was smart of Cameron to say that repeatedly], they would've won. The positive case for the EU was scarcely made at all.0 -
Meanwhile there's another scandal brewing
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/03/revealed-cambridge-analytica-and-the-passport-king/0 -
My God, he's moved on from speaking for London to speaking for the whole UK .... next week the world.AlastairMeeks said:
The public remembers two things about the Leave campaign: immigration and the promise on the bus. Sovereignty didn’t even register in the public’s memory of the campaign.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.0 -
AlastairMeeks said:
The public remembers two things about the Leave campaign: immigration and the promise on the bus. Sovereignty didn’t even register in the public’s memory of the campaign.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.
Sovereignty is the cornerstone that allows control of immigration and spending.
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I'm just glad we're leaving - I don't agree with Turkey joining, never did.TGOHF said:
We were all so stupid as we read the question on the ballot paper and took it literally and at face value - an easy mistake to make. We should have interpreted it as a referendum on the support for xenophobic lies - wherever they appear.Casino_Royale said:
I think he gets paid a £1 every time he says xenophobic lies.Philip_Thompson said:
Bullshit. The entire Leave campaign was centred around taking back control. That the MPs we elect set our laws.AlastairMeeks said:
The entire Leave campaign was centred around xenophobic lies. It’s not guilt by association, this was the prospectus offered to the British people.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Meeks, if guilt by association were legitimate (it isn't) then all remain voters would equally be condemned for standing alongside such characters as Gerry Adams and Jeremy Corbyn.
There's a good video on rhetoric which criticises this line of thinking very well, around 26-28 minutes in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_z3pe_OSZrQ
Edited extra bit: cheers for that, Miss Cyclefree.
That is all.
A bit like believing Cameron when he said Turkey might join the EU.0 -
The difference being that supporters of Corbyn's Labour are voting to make him Prime Minister whereas I was voting for a government (non specified) to take us out of the EU. Vote Leave or Leave.eu were not governments in waiting, they were campaign organisations, they didn't have a manifesto on which to be held to account and we ended up with a government led by a PM who supported the opposing campaigns.AlastairMeeks said:
“Some of the messaging”. That was the prospectus offered. You thought xenophobic lies were a price worth paying to get your heart’s desire, even as they contaminated the nature of British politics for years to come. That was your choice.chrisoxon said:
So, people who wished to leave the EU but aren't xenophobic should have felt compelled to vote Remain in your view? The referendum was their one opportunity to achieve what they wanted (leaving the EU) yet they should have voted for the opposite outcome because of some of the messaging.AlastairMeeks said:@kle4
Everyone on here is politically aware. Leavers on here made their choices in the full understanding of the type of campaign being fought. Having made their choices, they must be prepared to deal with the reactions of those who disagree. There is no time limit on being called out for disgusting behaviour, especially when it will have consequences for years to come.
This continual desire to tar everyone with the same brush really is quite distasteful, especially when it ignores the reality that the opportunity to vote on the UK's membership of the EU isn't something you get to do every other week.
I’m sure you would show just as much latitude to those who vote Labour in the knowledge of Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Semitic dalliances.
I wasn't even born when the last referendum took place and given this was a referendum to "settle the issue" I was hardly going to vote against my principles just because some people voting the same way were idiots.
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We will see, Mr.D.Morris_Dancer said:F1: Bahrain and China next, back-to-back races. Will be interesting to see if the Ferrari advantage on the straights is maintained. If so, that'll be indicative of an actual edge, if not, the advantage over Mercedes in Australia will be down to differing set-up.
Also, if they have such an edge that will make roadblock strategies (Raikkonen holding people up for Vettel, mostly) viable. Being faster in the twisty bits only works when you're ahead or corner passing is possible. At many circuits now, that's tricky. Also, the Mercedes still looks rough in traffic.
China is a pretty low speed track, and Bahrain somewhere in the middle. I don't expect Ferrari's improved engine to mean much - and the Australian result still less.0 -
Presumably your family tree is the Sum of all Fears?Sean_F said:
I haven't delved far into my family tree, although I know that all Fears are related to each other. It's a name that is very specific to the Glastonbury/Wells area of Somerset. Several of them then moved to South Wales c.1900, when the coalmines were being developed.david_herdson said:
Indeed. And the further you go back, the more people did live in small villages. That said, the more chance you get of some exception, whether that be a link up into the internationally mobile classes - soldiers, merchants, royalty etc - or to some great disruptive event that forced or brought large-scale population movements.DavidL said:
But you are going to get an ever increasing number of multiple hits, especially in an agrarian society. My wife's family was for many generations fisher folk out of a tiny village called Auchmithy. They must have been inbred like .... let's not go there.Pulpstar said:
Tricky to track every ancestor back over 500 years though, if a generation is 25.5 years then that yields just over a million great (*18) grandparents.HYUFD said:
The only indigenous people in North America are Native American IndiansPulpstar said:
The world is a much more mobile place now, but in recentish history it wasn't - and if we're taking most Americans not to be indigenous then that puts the bar at something like 150 years, so perhaps the nationality of 4th great grandparents is one's *indigenaity* - which is completely different to nationality. That puts me at 94% British and ~ 6% Flemish.Elliot said:
Given my recent Middle Eastern ancestry, I am pretty sure I don't. If I moved to America or Canada I don't think I would be classed as indigenous there either, as most Americans/Canadians are not.Anazina said:
Interested to find out if I qualify as one of the natives.Theuniondivvie said:Has JRM got some sort of classification system so we can work out if we're among the 'indigenous communities' of this country, and will it involve a colour chart?
https://twitter.com/MichaelPDeacon/status/978583106339958784
Edit, like Cleopatra! She is Cleopatra reborn. Whew.
FWIW, as far as we've traced - which is about 5-10 generation, depending on which lines you follow, I'm 100% English (mostly SW Yorkshire / Westmorland), but my son is one-sixteenth French - my wife's great-grandparents on the female line met and married during WWI.
On my mother's side, I know that one ancestor, Lieutenant Tubman, was a German mercenary at the siege of Londonderry.0 -
The nation is now committed to following that xenophobic mandate. You have helped to contaminate the nation’s politics because you felt that wasn’t particularly important. Motes and beams.chrisoxon said:
The difference being that supporters of Corbyn's Labour are voting to make him Prime Minister whereas I was voting for a government (non specified) to take us out of the EU. Vote Leave or Leave.eu were not governments in waiting, they were campaign organisations, they didn't have a manifesto on which to be held to account and we ended up with a government led by a PM who supported the opposing campaigns.AlastairMeeks said:
“Some of the messaging”. That was the prospectus offered. You thought xenophobic lies were a price worth paying to get your heart’s desire, even as they contaminated the nature of British politics for years to come. That was your choice.chrisoxon said:
So, people who wished to leave the EU but aren't xenophobic should have felt compelled to vote Remain in your view? The referendum was their one opportunity to achieve what they wanted (leaving the EU) yet they should have voted for the opposite outcome because of some of the messaging.AlastairMeeks said:@kle4
Everyone on here is politically aware. Leavers on here made their choices in the full understanding of the type of campaign being fought. Having made their choices, they must be prepared to deal with the reactions of those who disagree. There is no time limit on being called out for disgusting behaviour, especially when it will have consequences for years to come.
This continual desire to tar everyone with the same brush really is quite distasteful, especially when it ignores the reality that the opportunity to vote on the UK's membership of the EU isn't something you get to do every other week.
I’m sure you would show just as much latitude to those who vote Labour in the knowledge of Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Semitic dalliances.
I wasn't even born when the last referendum took place and given this was a referendum to "settle the issue" I was hardly going to vote against my principles just because some people voting the same way were idiots.0 -
If you look closely you can see "xenophobic lies" in smug ink - only visible to the superior intellect.
0 -
Leavers used extremely unpleasant xenophobic lies to achieve their aim.
Fine, the end justifies the means so what's all this complaining about.
Except, there was a self-fulfilling prophecy element about the process. Those posters became emblematic and contributed in some way to the debate such that people endorsed, whether while holding their nose or not, a UK that didn't just want to take back control (weasel words used as an excuse in particular by those on here) but a UK that was actively xenophobic and a place which endorsed those posters and the ideology behind them.
Leavers on here were happy, together with reclaiming their blessed sovereignty (we were always sovereign, of course) to contribute to the ideology, the perception, and the expectation that the UK is xenophobic and dislikes foreigners.
It is in that light that one is entitled to ask: was it worth it?0 -
Mr. B, great big straight in Shanghai, though.
On xenophobia: I didn't like The Persian Expedition, by Xenophon, all that much on first reading, but at this early stage of a re-read I'm rather liking it. [I am genuinely re-reading it at the moment].0 -
If Remain had won we would have been committed to following the federalist agenda that you clearly supported. At least by your mantra of 'guilt by association' I am happy to conclude that you actively supported it.AlastairMeeks said:
The nation is now committed to following that xenophobic mandate. You have helped to contaminate the nation’s politics because you felt that wasn’t particularly important. Motes and beams.chrisoxon said:
The difference being that supporters of Corbyn's Labour are voting to make him Prime Minister whereas I was voting for a government (non specified) to take us out of the EU. Vote Leave or Leave.eu were not governments in waiting, they were campaign organisations, they didn't have a manifesto on which to be held to account and we ended up with a government led by a PM who supported the opposing campaigns.AlastairMeeks said:
“Some of the messaging”. That was the prospectus offered. You thought xenophobic lies were a price worth paying to get your heart’s desire, even as they contaminated the nature of British politics for years to come. That was your choice.chrisoxon said:
So, people who wished to leave the EU but aren't xenophobic should have felt compelled to vote Remain in your view? The referendum was their one opportunity to achieve what they wanted (leaving the EU) yet they should have voted for the opposite outcome because of some of the messaging.AlastairMeeks said:@kle4
Everyone on here is politically aware. Leavers on here made their choices in the full understanding of the type of campaign being fought. Having made their choices, they must be prepared to deal with the reactions of those who disagree. There is no time limit on being called out for disgusting behaviour, especially when it will have consequences for years to come.
This continual desire to tar everyone with the same brush really is quite distasteful, especially when it ignores the reality that the opportunity to vote on the UK's membership of the EU isn't something you get to do every other week.
I’m sure you would show just as much latitude to those who vote Labour in the knowledge of Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Semitic dalliances.
I wasn't even born when the last referendum took place and given this was a referendum to "settle the issue" I was hardly going to vote against my principles just because some people voting the same way were idiots.0 -
Point 2 was responding to a very specific question from Mr Dancer.Richard_Nabavi said:
1. I don't think there is any such duty in a case like this, but even if it were, it's not retaliation, he's just responding (in very gentle terms) to very high profile allegations made against him personally. What's he supposed to do, lie about the relationship? It's not as though he said anything discreditable or irrelevant about the whistleblower.Cyclefree said:Two points:-
1. There is a duty not to retaliate against a whistleblower regardless of whether they are anonymous or not.
2. As an investigator I would like to know of any personal relationship as background/context. But it is very important to investigate the allegations properly and not dismiss them because one of the parties involved may have mixed (or even malicious) motives.
2. This isn't about an investigation - it's about a war of words being waged against Vote Leave on the front pages, for reasons which clearly have absolutely nothing to do with a proper investigation. If the lawyers and the whistleblower wanted a proper investigation, they would have prepared their evidence and presented in to the Electoral Commission and/or the police in confidence, rather than plastering it over the front pages (which is likely to compromise any potential court case) and then running away complaining about the resultant publicity. They can't have it both ways.
Re point 1, revealing a personal matter which may cause someone embarrassment or worse is a form of retaliation. Employment law may not apply in this particular case but one should seek to create a culture which fosters people speaking up about wrongdoing not one which seeks to attack or embarrass those who do the speaking up.0 -
Hell hath no fury like a woman scornedAlastairMeeks said:
The nation is now committed to following that xenophobic mandate. You have helped to contaminate the nation’s politics because you felt that wasn’t particularly important. Motes and beams.chrisoxon said:
The difference being that supporters of Corbyn's Labour are voting to make him Prime Minister whereas I was voting for a government (non specified) to take us out of the EU. Vote Leave or Leave.eu were not governments in waiting, they were campaign organisations, they didn't have a manifesto on which to be held to account and we ended up with a government led by a PM who supported the opposing campaigns.AlastairMeeks said:
“Some of the messaging”. That was the prospectus offered. You thought xenophobic lies were a price worth paying to get your heart’s desire, even as they contaminated the nature of British politics for years to come. That was your choice.chrisoxon said:
So, people who wished to leave the EU but aren't xenophobic should have felt compelled to vote Remain in your view? The referendum was their one opportunity to achieve what they wanted (leaving the EU) yet they should have voted for the opposite outcome because of some of the messaging.AlastairMeeks said:@kle4
Everyone on here is politically aware. Leavers on here made their choices in the full understanding of the type of campaign being fought. Having made their choices, they must be prepared to deal with the reactions of those who disagree. There is no time limit on being called out for disgusting behaviour, especially when it will have consequences for years to come.
This continual desire to tar everyone with the same brush really is quite distasteful, especially when it ignores the reality that the opportunity to vote on the UK's membership of the EU isn't something you get to do every other week.
I’m sure you would show just as much latitude to those who vote Labour in the knowledge of Jeremy Corbyn’s anti-Semitic dalliances.
I wasn't even born when the last referendum took place and given this was a referendum to "settle the issue" I was hardly going to vote against my principles just because some people voting the same way were idiots.0 -
How "entitled"?TOPPING said:Leavers used extremely unpleasant xenophobic lies to achieve their aim.
Fine, the end justifies the means so what's all this complaining about.
Except, there was a self-fulfilling prophecy element about the process. Those posters became emblematic and contributed in some way to the debate such that people endorsed, whether while holding their nose or not, a UK that didn't just want to take back control (weasel words used as an excuse in particular by those on here) but a UK that was actively xenophobic and a place which endorsed those posters and the ideology behind them.
Leavers on here were happy, together with reclaiming their blessed sovereignty (we were always sovereign, of course) to contribute to the ideology, the perception, and the expectation that the UK is xenophobic and dislikes foreigners.
It is in that light that one is entitled to ask: was it worth it?0 -
