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I thought she was great, and ill-informed but by no means stupid - she got the optimum result.Foxy said:
Sounds more of a Southern Belle, but quite a sweetie albeit not a smartie!ydoethur said:
https://youtu.be/0AloO2ajdnIwelshowl said:
The point is I can tell them in nuance if they dont know, because my cultural Venn diagram overlaps theirs far more than it does a Bulgarian, or a Finn (heresy for you?). In reality in my experience most Californians without guidance struggle to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.williamglenn said:
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...welshowl said:
What a bag of bollocks.williamglenn said:
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.welshowl said:Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
I have today been simultaneously in text conversations with California and Australia without leaving my sofa. In a few weeks I will immensely enjoy the IPL live from India. The language unifies all of that across time zones instantly now, even before Elon Musk or whoever can get us to the Barrier Reef for a quick winter break in a couple of hours in the future.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
Although I don't think she's Californian.0 -
And forced to pay the 13 billion Apple tax and then agree to EU tax harmonisationsteve_garner said:
David Cameron did not have any clout so why would Varadkar. He's useful to the EU at the moment but when Brexit's done he'll be a PM of just another little member state.williamglenn said:
Because in the EU Varadkar has clout, but in the UK you think he'd be an "obscure minister in a coalition government".welshowl said:
I have literally no idea how you draw that conclusion, and I’m not going to bother wasting my time trying.williamglenn said:
Proving that the EU is a better model for integration between nations than the UK.welshowl said:
If they weren’t independent in the first place with 4.7 million in a U.K. of about 70 million they’d have as much clout as London south of the river, and Varadkar would be an obscure minister in a coalition government.williamglenn said:
Ireland gained sovereignty when it became independent, and gained power when it pooled that sovereignty.welshowl said:
@JonathanD
“Events dear boy events”.
To use my Irish analogy, though I’m sure Collins and De Valera from about 1920 wouldn’t be happy about the 26/6 split continuing a century on, the developments and position of the 26 would probably amaze them, in a positive way. At least politically and economically ( no idea how the relative fall of Catholicism would play - but that’s a sideshow to this).
The point is they (the Irish) gained the power to act when they could, if they wanted. It might take us 40/50 years to unwind matters fully. If we want. The point is it will be our choice.0 -
This is fascinating.williamglenn said:
How at home do you feel in Finsbury?welshowl said:
I’m not Brazilian or Portuguese so I haven’t the faintest. I know how I feel. And I feel massively more at home in Melbourne than I do in Marseille- and I speak French and have lived there.williamglenn said:
The is an illusion created by a common language in my view.welshowl said:
The point is I can tell them in nuance if they dont know, because my cultural Venn diagram overlaps theirs far more than it does a Bulgarian, or a Finn (heresy for you?). In reality in my experience most Californians without guidance struggle to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.williamglenn said:
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...welshowl said:williamglenn said:
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.welshowl said:Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
Think of it this way: Do you think someone from Portugal has more in common with a Spaniard or a Brazilian? I think most people would say a Spaniard. Why do you think the answer is different for us?
I would say we in the UK have most in common with:
1) the ROI
2) NZ
3) Aus
4) Canada
5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark
6) USA
7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd
8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.0 -
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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I think that is a good summary to be fairCookie said:
This is fascinating.williamglenn said:
How at home do you feel in Finsbury?welshowl said:
I’m not Brazilian or Portuguese so I haven’t the faintest. I know how I feel. And I feel massively more at home in Melbourne than I do in Marseille- and I speak French and have lived there.williamglenn said:
The is an illusion created by a common language in my view.welshowl said:
The point is I can tell them in nuance if they dont know, because my cultural Venn diagram overlaps theirs far more than it does a Bulgarian, or a Finn (heresy for you?). In reality in my experience most Californians without guidance struggle to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.williamglenn said:
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...welshowl said:williamglenn said:
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.welshowl said:Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
Think of it this way: Do you think someone from Portugal has more in common with a Spaniard or a Brazilian? I think most people would say a Spaniard. Why do you think the answer is different for us?
I would say we in the UK have most in common with:
1) the ROI
2) NZ
3) Aus
4) Canada
5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark
6) USA
7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd
8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.0 -
The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.0 -
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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Maybe, but there's still Faisal Islam to come on Sky News at 10pm. By then he'll have found no end of folk who think the speech was hopeless and Brexit will be a disaster.El_Capitano said:The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.0 -
SPADs, surely, not civil servants?justin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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Interesting that it has been announced that a joint UK - EU - ROI Committee are to explore solutions for the Irish borderEl_Capitano said:The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.0 -
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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I don't think so, I think May is not very good but as far as reaching a deal is concerned she is "boiling the frog". Arch-Remainers and Arch-Leavers started in very mutually exclusive positions and while ultimately there will be many refuseniks who end up unhappy (Soubry/Meeks/Farage etc) slowly but surely the moderates of the two sides are edging towards accepting compromises.El_Capitano said:The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.0 -
This is fascinating.
I would say we in the UK have most in common with:
1) the ROI
2) NZ
3) Aus
4) Canada
5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark
6) USA
7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd
8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.
Dixie dean:
I would tend to agree. Haven't been to NZ so wouldn't know. Wrt Canada and USA depends where you go. Vancouver, Toronto, New York feel familiar, back woods Louisiana or Moose Factory not to mention rural Quebec less so.0 -
Oh come off it Justin. This line is just plain pathetic.justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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Both!RobD said:
SPADs, surely, not civil servants?justin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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Far from it - and I am not a Corbynite at all!steve_garner said:
Oh come off it Justin. This line is just plain pathetic.justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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It has generally been recognised as a good speech - Corbyn is hopeless and he will be found outjustin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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I think you are right, and I console myself (as an unrepentant Remainer) with the thought that May does at least seem committed to avoiding a 'no deal' crash.Philip_Thompson said:
I don't think so, I think May is not very good but as far as reaching a deal is concerned she is "boiling the frog". Arch-Remainers and Arch-Leavers started in very mutually exclusive positions and while ultimately there will be many refuseniks who end up unhappy (Soubry/Meeks/Farage etc) slowly but surely the moderates of the two sides are edging towards accepting compromises.El_Capitano said:The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.0 -
Just the remoaners that are still moaning.
https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/969656144993181696?s=210 -
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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Let us hope soPhilip_Thompson said:
I don't think so, I think May is not very good but as far as reaching a deal is concerned she is "boiling the frog". Arch-Remainers and Arch-Leavers started in very mutually exclusive positions and while ultimately there will be many refuseniks who end up unhappy (Soubry/Meeks/Farage etc) slowly but surely the moderates of the two sides are edging towards accepting compromises.El_Capitano said:The one thing that strikes me about May’s speech is that she hasn’t pissed anyone off.
Leavers, moderate remainers, industry, the EU, all seem happy with it. Certainly no one appears to have come out the end thinking worse of May than they did before.
That’s quite an achievement. But it also suggests she’s still ducking the hard questions, still looking for magic technological border solutions that don’t exist, still putting off the inevitable.
One day people will need to be faced down and confronted with the reality of Brexit. That day was evidently not today. May is making the eventual crunch still harder.
Breaking
Shooting at US University0 -
Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.0
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Reminds me of this time last year. Wonder if May fancies another snap election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It has generally been recognised as a good speech - Corbyn is hopeless and he will be found outjustin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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Not sure whose point that strengthens more...ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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But she studied Geography! She was never employed by the Bank as an economist.ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography!ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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There is quite a lot of economics in Geography - and Corbyn didn't even get that far.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography!ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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Probably our Britishness?williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
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No - she has a job to do to get the deal that satisfies those of us in the middle who reject both the ultra remainers and ultra leaversJonathan said:
Reminds me of this time last year. Wonder if May fancies another snap election.Big_G_NorthWales said:
It has generally been recognised as a good speech - Corbyn is hopeless and he will be found outjustin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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I don't feel very different from either Australians or Canadians.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
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Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.RobD said:
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography!ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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@Cookie
I agree with all of that ( yes 5-8 are tricky!). Yes language is vital. Our day to day popular culture is far more Kylie and Beyoncé than Halliday and whoever else ( I literally cannot think of another European example quickly!!). We can communicate in nuance, joke, emote, not just get a meaning over. Barnier, Juncker, and Tusk just come over as more distant to us than let’s say Bill Clinton, or J Trudeau or Malcolm Turnbull. Can’t be helped, doesn’t make them bad in any way per se, it just is.
I have a theory that English is in a pretty odd linguistic position in that there is nothing with which it is vaguely mutually intelligible to any degree, a situation just about alone amongst the major European languages. German/Dutch, Italian/ Spanish/Portuguese, the Scandinavians, Polish/Czech etc etc. Continentals are aurally used to blurred linguistic lines, we are just totally not.
And I have a language degree and have lived on the continent.0 -
No, she was a financial consultant on global matters.justin124 said:
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.RobD said:
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography!ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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Really?justin124 said:
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.RobD said:
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography!ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.
0 -
From 1985 to 1997ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
0 -
You don't think being a much older country makes a difference?Philip_Thompson said:
I don't feel very different from either Australians or Canadians.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
0 -
She's a sleeper agent with a long-term mission to get us into the Euro.RobD said:
Really?justin124 said:
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.RobD said:
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography!ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.0 -
It may well reflect where I have been, and lived, but I would go for this order:Cookie said:
This is fascinating.williamglenn said:
How at home do you feel in Finsbury?welshowl said:
I’m not Brazilian or Portuguese so I haven’t the faintest. I know how I feel. And I feel massively more at home in Melbourne than I do in Marseille- and I speak French and have lived there.williamglenn said:
The is an illusion created by a common language in my view.welshowl said:
The point is I can tell themwilliamglenn said:
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...welshowl said:williamglenn said:
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.welshowl said:Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
Think of it this way: Do you think someone from Portugal has more in common with a Spaniard or a Brazilian? I think most people would say a Spaniard. Why do you think the answer is different for us?
I would say we in the UK have most in common with:
1) the ROI
2) NZ
3) Aus
4) Canada
5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark
6) USA
7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd
8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.
Australia
NZ
Netherlands
Scandinavia
Canada
Germany, Austria
Italy, Spain, Portugal, France
Rest of Europe
West Indies
South Africa
Rest of Anglophone Africa
Latin America
USA
India
Japan and Korea
China
SEAsia
0 -
Face it, that ship has sailed...williamglenn said:
She's a sleeper agent with a long-term mission to get us into the Euro.RobD said:
Really?justin124 said:
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.RobD said:
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography!ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me. 0 -
That's a shame. I was hoping Rees-Mogg would throw a wobbly and thus confirm that the government was finally on the right track. But his blessing sounds a touch sniffy, so he's probably harbouring doubts and we can crush him later (there's no rush).TGOHF said:Just the remoaners that are still moaning.
https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/969656144993181696?s=210 -
The excellent sports.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
0 -
Not that much no. I've lived in the UK and in Australia and have family in Canada. I think the difference between the UK and Australia other than the weather is minute. You'd find a bigger difference between London and Cumbria or Sydney and the Outback than you would between London and and Sydney.williamglenn said:
You don't think being a much older country makes a difference?Philip_Thompson said:
I don't feel very different from either Australians or Canadians.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
0 -
I am closer to the Australians, New Zealanders and Canadians than Europeans , not least as I have visited all those Countries several times and my eldest son emigrated to NZ 14 years ago and is now married to a Canadian and living in Vancouver.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption0 -
'Payment Clearing Services' sounds pretty administrative to me.RobD said:
Really?justin124 said:
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.RobD said:
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography!ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.0 -
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
0 -
Yeah, they need nothing but administrative staff. Even their consultants are just administrative staff!justin124 said:
'Payment Clearing Services' sounds pretty administrative to me.RobD said:
Really?justin124 said:
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.RobD said:
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography!ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.0 -
We are Europeans by geography. Other than that I'm failing to see a link.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
0 -
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
0 -
I am not a European and neither is my wife or familywilliamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
We identify as British being part Welsh, part English, my wife Scots, and my children and grandchildren all Welsh0 -
I have no idea what she did for them, but I don't really know that what people studied at university is particularly relevant. I've known investment managers who studied history and lawyers who don't have law degrees, it didn't prevent them from acting in a specialised and technical way in fields they did not originally study.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography! She was never employed by the Bank as an economist.ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
0 -
Our inability to bat for any length of time on a hard bouncy wicket.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
There you go.0 -
It won't last.TGOHF said:Just the remoaners that are still moaning.
https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/969656144993181696?s=21
0 -
Too soon.welshowl said:
Our inability to bat for any length of time on a hard bouncy wicket.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
There you go.0 -
Justin seems to think she was a glorified tea lady.kle4 said:
I have no idea what she did for them, but I don't really know that what people studied at university is particularly relevant. I've known investment managers who studied history and lawyers who don't have law degrees, it didn't prevent them from acting in a specialised and technical way in fields they did not originally study.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography! She was never employed by the Bank as an economist.ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
0 -
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."kle4 said:
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
0 -
I haven't heard anything seriously critical of the speech. Except that it should have been made a year ago.0
-
More hope than expectationFoxy said:
It won't last.TGOHF said:Just the remoaners that are still moaning.
https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/969656144993181696?s=210 -
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.williamglenn said:
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."kle4 said:
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
0 -
You hope, I thought I would be home many hours ago but am stuck in a hotel in Prague. Plenty could restrict you having option of going to France.welshowl said:
What a bag of bollocks.williamglenn said:
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.welshowl said:Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
I have today been simultaneously in text conversations with California and Australia without leaving my sofa. In a few weeks I will immensely enjoy the IPL live from India. The language unifies all of that across time zones instantly now, even before Elon Musk or whoever can get us to the Barrier Reef for a quick winter break in a couple of hours in the future.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!0 -
Yes but Faisal Islam has not been on Sky News at 10pm yet.geoffw said:I haven't heard anything seriously critical of the speech. Except that it should have been made a year ago.
0 -
It never lasts with fanatics, no matter the kind. Trouble will flare up again, but it'd be nice to think it will hold off for long enough that some progress can be achieved in the meantime.Big_G_NorthWales said:
More hope than expectationFoxy said:
It won't last.TGOHF said:Just the remoaners that are still moaning.
https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/969656144993181696?s=210 -
Try the excellent Czech beer. That’s European cultural excellence for sure.malcolmg said:
You hope, I thought I would be home many hours ago but am stuck in a hotel in Prague. Plenty could restrict you having option of going to France.welshowl said:
What a bag of bollocks.williamglenn said:
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.welshowl said:Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
I have today been simultaneously in text conversations with California and Australia without leaving my sofa. In a few weeks I will immensely enjoy the IPL live from India. The language unifies all of that across time zones instantly now, even before Elon Musk or whoever can get us to the Barrier Reef for a quick winter break in a couple of hours in the future.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!0 -
Absolutelykle4 said:
It never lasts with fanatics, no matter the kind. Trouble will flare up again, but it'd be nice to think it will hold off for long enough that some progress can be achieved in the meantime.Big_G_NorthWales said:
More hope than expectationFoxy said:
It won't last.TGOHF said:Just the remoaners that are still moaning.
https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/969656144993181696?s=210 -
Automatic 'mute' button when he comes on, same with Adam Boultonsteve_garner said:
Yes but Faisal Islam has not been on Sky News at 10pm yet.geoffw said:I haven't heard anything seriously critical of the speech. Except that it should have been made a year ago.
0 -
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.kle4 said:
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.williamglenn said:
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."kle4 said:
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
0 -
The one constant of politics over recent decades is Tory infighting over Europe. One speech is not going to end that.Big_G_NorthWales said:
More hope than expectationFoxy said:
It won't last.TGOHF said:Just the remoaners that are still moaning.
https://twitter.com/telegraph/status/969656144993181696?s=21
0 -
In balance yes. That would be the logical end result of the compromises implied by May's speech. Key quote for me:RobD said:
You still think the UK will be in the Single Market after it is all wrapped up?FF43 said:My take on May's speech. We are now seeing intimations of reality, if not the actual reality. These proposed solutions are still not realistic but we can see where the compromises will be made. Probably it was OK. Mrs May can't stand up and say, Brexit is waste of time, money and potential, we're stuck with this mess, so I am completely focused on damage limitation. Single Market and Customs Union , right now. The collapse would be total. She can't say it.
Yet.
"We will not accept the rights of Canada and the obligations of Norway."
Point is, if you have the obligations of Norway, to resolve most of the issues, you can have the rights of Norway too. It won't be the EEA, but something broadly similar.
0 -
Very little if anything at all. I feel no different to Canadians or Australians than I do from Cornish or Brummies.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
0 -
sounds bollox made up title for an administrator in public sector.RobD said:
Really?justin124 said:
Doubtless - but her position would have been administrative/managerial.RobD said:
I assume there was some training on the job at the BoE.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography!ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theresa_May
Between 1977 and 1983 May worked at the Bank of England, and from 1985 to 1997 as a financial consultant and senior advisor in International Affairs at the Association for Payment Clearing Services.[34]
Doesn't sound all that administrative to me.0 -
Indeed so - but a non-Law graduate has to undertake a Graduate Diploma in Law followed by the relevant examinations for the Law Society or the Bar.kle4 said:
I have no idea what she did for them, but I don't really know that what people studied at university is particularly relevant. I've known investment managers who studied history and lawyers who don't have law degrees, it didn't prevent them from acting in a specialised and technical way in fields they did not originally study.justin124 said:
But she studied Geography! She was never employed by the Bank as an economist.ydoethur said:
She worked for the Bank of England!justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
0 -
Wasnt TM a key decision maker at the BoE
ie she drew up a rota as to who wasin charge of the keys to lock up the office each night
Or perhaps she checked the vault to make sure it was Strong and Stable0 -
I have been over sampling all week, it is indeed excellent.welshowl said:
Try the excellent Czech beer. That’s European cultural excellence for sure.malcolmg said:
You hope, I thought I would be home many hours ago but am stuck in a hotel in Prague. Plenty could restrict you having option of going to France.welshowl said:
What a bag of bollocks.williamglenn said:
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.welshowl said:Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
I have today been simultaneously in text conversations with California and Australia without leaving my sofa. In a few weeks I will immensely enjoy the IPL live from India. The language unifies all of that across time zones instantly now, even before Elon Musk or whoever can get us to the Barrier Reef for a quick winter break in a couple of hours in the future.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!0 -
Not to mention all those bridges on the Euro notes.welshowl said:
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.kle4 said:
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.williamglenn said:
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."kle4 said:
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
0 -
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
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Australians and New Zealanders are probably closer to us than any other country.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
Over 60% of them are of direct British descent, over only 3-4 generations.0 -
What I don't want is pathetic platitudes and Unionist nonsense from the Prime Minister. I want a clear, concise and realistic plan of what the Government wants and expects. I want to know about immigration and I want to know where our so-called "red lines" are.TGOHF said:
Indeed -usual doom and gloom from those who don’t want good news on Brexit.geoffw said:I haven't heard anything seriously critical of the speech. Except that it should have been made a year ago.
I'm tired of Theresa May trying to be all things to all people.
0 -
Home office job became a lot easier after justice was spun out as a separate thing.MarqueeMark said:
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
0 -
however she just hid for 5 years and made no decisions whatsoever so hardly encouraging.MarqueeMark said:
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
0 -
I'd agree with that listing.Cookie said:
This is fascinating.williamglenn said:
How at home do you feel in Finsbury?welshowl said:
I’m not Brazilian or Portuguese so I haven’t the faintest. I know how I feel. And I feel massively more at home in Melbourne than I do in Marseille- and I speak French and have lived there.williamglenn said:
The is an illusion created by a common language in my view.welshowl said:
The point is I can tell them in nuance if they dont know, because my cultural Venn diagram overlaps theirs far more than it does a Bulgarian, or a Finn (heresy for you?). In reality in my experience most Californians without guidance struggle to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.williamglenn said:
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...welshowl said:williamglenn said:
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.welshowl said:Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
Think of it this way: Do you think someone from Portugal has more in common with a Spaniard or a Brazilian? I think most people would say a Spaniard. Why do you think the answer is different for us?
I would say we in the UK have most in common with:
1) the ROI
2) NZ
3) Aus
4) Canada
5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark
6) USA
7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd
8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have more in common with a Portuguese than most, and indeed the two languages are fairly close. But I'd also say a Spaniard would have more in common with an Arggentine than a German. But I'm not a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.0 -
There is no case, other than your assertions, which you think we'll all come round to if you repeat them confidently and often enough.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
And your assertions are based on your fanaticism, nothing more.0 -
A lot depends on social millieu. I am pretty comfortable with Doctors from any country, as part of an international fraternity with common language, education, ethics and place in society. I am also at home with Non-Conformist Protestants from wherever, for similar reasons. I have less in common with some of my countrymen, such as fox hunters, drug-dealers or the aristocracy.Richard_Tyndall said:
Very little if anything at all. I feel no different to Canadians or Australians than I do from Cornish or Brummies.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
0 -
It appears that the PM has really rattled lefty Remainers judging by the childish comments they are making about her on here tonight. No serious critique of her speech, just puerile insults.0
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Not getting fired from being Home Secretary is still way, way better than her Labour predecessors could manage....malcolmg said:
however she just hid for 5 years and made no decisions whatsoever so hardly encouraging.MarqueeMark said:
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
0 -
B*gger. Missed it.JosiasJessop said:For the rail enthusiasts amongst us, a two-part series starts on Channel 5 at 20.00, about the North Yorkshire Moors railway.
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We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at, and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?welshowl said:
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.kle4 said:
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.williamglenn said:
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."kle4 said:
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
0 -
Amazing how people are different . Once you overcome language barrier Western Europe is very similar. More variation inside countries than between them.Casino_Royale said:
I'd agree with that listing.Cookie said:
This is fascinating.williamglenn said:
How at home do you feel in Finsbury?welshowl said:
I’m not Brazilian or Portuguese so I haven’t the faintest. I know how I feel. And I feel massively more at home in Melbourne than I do in Marseille- and I speak French and have lived there.williamglenn said:
The is an illusion created by a common language in my view.welshowl said:
The point is I can tell them in nuance if they dont know, because my cultural Venn diagram overlaps theirs far more than it does a Bulgarian, or a Finn (heresy for you?). In reality in my experience most Californians without guidance struggle to point out European countries. Or even Europe on a map.williamglenn said:
I wonder how many Californians could tell you where Wales is on a map...welshowl said:williamglenn said:
If we could get to Australia in two hours on an Easyjet for a hundred quid, you'd have a point, but we can't.welshowl said:Who knows? The point is we’ll have more choice and opportunity (and the motive?). But I suspect as the rest of the world becomes ever more dominant in world affairs and distance continues to shrink (not much in the way of shipping costs for say a TV format service export), we will gradually diversify more away from Europe. The English language alone will nudge us there quite a bit.
And non of that stops me going to France next week!
Think of it this way: Do you think someone from Portugal has more in common with a Spaniard or a Brazilian? I think most people would say a Spaniard. Why do you think the answer is different for us?
I would say we in the UK have most in common with:
1) the ROI
2) NZ
3) Aus
4) Canada
5) Some European countries - let's say Netherlands, Norway, Denmark
6) USA
7) Some other European countries - Germany, Sweden, Finalnd
8) Some other European countries - France, Italy, Spain
5, 6, 7 and 8are very fluid though.
As to Spain - I'd expect a Spaniard would have ot a Spaniard - I'm only guessing.
I offer this as my opinion, and I would be interested to know what others think. I genuinely think language is massively important - the more polyglotally inclined and those with connections in Europe will obviously feel different, and there is no right answer.0 -
How did she get on with non-EU migration? last year +205 000.MarqueeMark said:
Not getting fired from being Home Secretary is still way, way better than her Labour predecessors could manage....malcolmg said:
however she just hid for 5 years and made no decisions whatsoever so hardly encouraging.MarqueeMark said:
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
Its almost as if her public pronouncements are not carried through
0 -
I'm intrigued. Is your order of decreasing preference fox hunters > drug-dealers > aristocracy or vice versa?Foxy said:
A lot depends on social millieu. I am pretty comfortable with Doctors from any country, as part of an international fraternity with common language, education, ethics and place in society. I am also at home with Non-Conformist Protestants from wherever, for similar reasons. I have less in common with some of my countrymen, such as fox hunters, drug-dealers or the aristocracy.Richard_Tyndall said:
Very little if anything at all. I feel no different to Canadians or Australians than I do from Cornish or Brummies.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
0 -
No particular order!ExiledInScotland said:
I'm intrigued. Is your order of decreasing preference fox hunters > drug-dealers > aristocracy or vice versa?Foxy said:
A lot depends on social millieu. I am pretty comfortable with Doctors from any country, as part of an international fraternity with common language, education, ethics and place in society. I am also at home with Non-Conformist Protestants from wherever, for similar reasons. I have less in common with some of my countrymen, such as fox hunters, drug-dealers or the aristocracy.Richard_Tyndall said:
Very little if anything at all. I feel no different to Canadians or Australians than I do from Cornish or Brummies.williamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
0 -
Totally. Personally I think we are a mix, but I never thought the EU understood the links we have to the non European world. We always seemed to be having to make an either or choice, when the reality is we are a bit of both, though in terms of popular culture it’s a no contest. We are part of the Anglosphere. Football excepted.Ishmael_Z said:
We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at, and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?welshowl said:
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.kle4 said:
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.williamglenn said:
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."kle4 said:
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
0 -
Pesky common sense and consensus.stodge said:
What I don't want is pathetic platitudes and Unionist nonsense from the Prime Minister. I want a clear, concise and realistic plan of what the Government wants and expects. I want to know about immigration and I want to know where our so-called "red lines" are.TGOHF said:
Indeed -usual doom and gloom from those who don’t want good news on Brexit.geoffw said:I haven't heard anything seriously critical of the speech. Except that it should have been made a year ago.
I'm tired of Theresa May trying to be all things to all people.0 -
Well - I voted Leave and have no regrets at having done so!steve_garner said:It appears that the PM has really rattled lefty Remainers judging by the childish comments they are making about her on here tonight. No serious critique of her speech, just puerile insults.
0 -
Would anyone be interested in seeing a spreadsheet featuring the constituencies which have most accurately mirrored the national swing over the last three elections?0
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There was never any compulsion to make an either or choice.welshowl said:
Totally. Personally I think we are a mix, but I never thought the EU understood the links we have to the non European world. We always seemed to be having to make an either or choice, when the reality is we are a bit of both, though in terms of popular culture it’s a no contest. We are part of the Anglosphere.Ishmael_Z said:
We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at, and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?welshowl said:
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.kle4 said:
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.williamglenn said:
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."kle4 said:
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
What is Ireland part of?0 -
You must be a troll - there is no other logical explanatonwilliamglenn said:Question for people who feel more at home in the Anglosphere: What do you think makes us different from Australians or Canadians? Perhaps it's our Europeanness.
0 -
Can't we try and guess first?AndyJS said:Would anyone be interested in seeing a spreadsheet featuring the constituencies which have most accurately mirrored the national swing over the last three elections?
0 -
You set a very low bar MarkMarqueeMark said:
Not getting fired from being Home Secretary is still way, way better than her Labour predecessors could manage....malcolmg said:
however she just hid for 5 years and made no decisions whatsoever so hardly encouraging.MarqueeMark said:
She kept the very tricky Home Office brief far longer than anyone I can remember for Labour. That is no mean achievement. It also shows up Jeremy Slacke,r who has managed to slide through life not taking responsibility for anything he didn't like....justin124 said:
You obviously like to think that . I am not at all convinced. She is no more of a trained economist or lawyer etc than he is! He is,however, a better communicator.Big_G_NorthWales said:
TM demonstrated a knowledge far in advance than anything Corbyn could hope to emulatejustin124 said:
I doubt that ! Such speeches are 90% written by civil servants . Corbyn would also have those resources available to him.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Today's speech in complexity and depth is far removed from anything Corbyn could dream of doing.justin124 said:
He has hardly had much to compete with on that score since the election though - most now take that view of May too!Big_G_NorthWales said:
He looks completely out of his depthsteve_garner said:Corbyn's no longer authentic on Brexit and the public knows it.
0 -
The seat at the top of the list is interesting.MarqueeMark said:
Can't we try and guess first?AndyJS said:Would anyone be interested in seeing a spreadsheet featuring the constituencies which have most accurately mirrored the national swing over the last three elections?
0 -
The UK has always had one foot inside Europe, and one foot out. Always has, always will. So black and white arguments either which way don't work.Ishmael_Z said:
We aren't culturally European anyway. Our literature and painting have always been entirely distinct, we take architecture from them but make it our own, classical music was just something we aren't very good at, and in modern terms here's a list: Rolling Stones, the Who, Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, The Clash, Oasis, Blur, and Queen. Here's another: Dylan, Grateful Dead, Hendrix, Neil Young, Prince, Ramones, Velvet Underground, The Doors. Here's a third: Johnny Hallyday, Kraftwerk. Get my drift?welshowl said:
Quite. I don’t need the EU to appreciate the Loire Chateaux, Mozart, or the book of Kells.kle4 said:
That some people see that as the point does not mean for those who do see that they can be european and british in a cultural sense that that will no longer be the case. The loss of the specific aspects of the EU can be lamented as those will indeed be gone, but you will not cease to be european culturally just because others insist we are not. After all, plenty of people did not feel european even while we are within the EU, and that didn't render your view false.williamglenn said:
Because too many people see asserting our non-Europeanness as the point of Brexit. To me this is what makes being outside the EU different for us than it is for, say, Switzerland. No Swiss person would say, as we've seen here, "I am not a European."kle4 said:
I actually agree, and its a reason I don't see why culturally it is so devastating to leave the EU, since we will still be europeans too.williamglenn said:
That's not what I'm doing at all. I'm trying (and obviously failing) to make the case that we are Europeans, and our closeness with Australians etc, is not in conflict with that.Big_G_NorthWales said:But your attempt to try to get us to take sides is pathetic. I and my family love the Italians, have had many holidays there, and I like all Europeans without exemption
But, that in-and-of-itself is sufficient to explain why a federal Europe (obviously) wasn't for us.0
This discussion has been closed.