politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn speech has made TMay’s Brexit challenge even harder
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It's a question of timing. He needs to try to hang on to the naive whilst edging towards those who have some grounding in reality, all without committing to any hard decisions. He's doing surprisingly well on that at the moment, helped enormously by the Tory chaos. Of course it's much easier when he's not close to an election, let alone in government, and ultimately it is doomed to failure because his policies are plainly bonkers, as the vast bulk of your former Labour MP colleagues would have freely admitted. The only question is whether voters can be conned long enough to get him into No 10.NickPalmer said:
Ignoring the parenthetical bit, yes, but he's got plenty of scope to whittle that down in favour of showing ability to deal with hard compromises. Nobody who likes him is going to say "Corbyn, what a sellout" any time soon. It's like the Tories being more liberal on gay marriage - it doesn't make anyone really argue that they've turned into an LGBT front.Richard_Nabavi said:
His 'purity' (which was always mythical, of course) is supposed to be his greatest strength, is it not?NickPalmer said:
It's interesting that he's not as fixed in his positions as everyone (allies and opponents alike) thought. He's evolved a good deal as leader from professional insurgent to potential PM, losing purity but gaining credibility.tpfkar said:Bottom line is that the Tories are making Jeremy Corbyn - Jeremy Corbyn! - look pragmatic, moderate and business-friendly. How is that even possible?
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I used the Turkish model because it is the most relevant case in this situation.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, the Turkish model? Making us subject to the EU negotiating deals, whereby third party nations can enjoy benefits exporting to us (as per EU nations) but we do not enjoy the corresponding benefits exporting to them (unlike EU nations but like Turkey)?
It's almost as if staying in A/The/Ze/I Can't Believe It's Not The Customs Union is a bad idea.
I expect ours would be more favourable given the difference in the economies of The UK and Turkey and relative importance of us to the EU27.0 -
Anorak said:
Pfff. You and your 'facts' and your 'evidence'. Typical treacherous Euro-shill. What's wrong with a good, old-fashioned, proudly BRITISH baseless assertion, eh!TheScreamingEagles said:
Let us use the Turkish model.Richard_Tyndall said:
Of course you will, even when you are being dishonest or foolish you cannot afford to concede any points - just like you couldn't with the idiocy you were pushing about PCSOs on the previous thread.TheScreamingEagles said:
I have written reports from people who have worked, inter alia at the WTO, who say otherwise.Richard_Tyndall said:
No it doesn't. If you think that you really don't know what you are talking about.TheScreamingEagles said:
Protects trade and the economy ensuring no disruption to trade.Sean_F said:
How does their proposed amendment assist us?TheScreamingEagles said:
Country before party.Essexit said:She won't be facing an entirely united Labour Party. There's the Labour Leavers plus Caroline Flint and other Brexit means Brexit Remainers. Tories flirting with the idea of rebelling night ask themselves if they really want to hand Jeremy Corbyn this victory.
A bad Brexit begets Corbyn as Prime Minister.
Soubry, Grieve et al are acting like true patriots.
It also solves the Irish Border question.
I know they are experts but I'll place more faith in their views than yours.
So.
How exactly does being in the Customs Union but not the SM ensure no disruption to trade? (here's a clue, it doesn't)
How exactly does being in the Customs Union but not the SM solve the Irish Border question? (here's another clue. It doesn't).
I hope whoever you were writing reports for will be trying to get their money back if that is the garbage you are writing.
Do for non agricultural physical goods are there any customs restrictions between Turkey and The EU? Yes or No?
And why bother with experts when you can fantasise, eh?! 0 -
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...0 -
That supposes the Irish (i.e. the EU) would respond in kind. They wouldn't. They'd simply dump stuff on us and choose very carefully what to accept in return. As would the rest of the world.rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...0 -
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...0 -
Once in Cardiff, whilst wearing an England rugby shirt, I asked/chantedPenddu said:
Not sure what Welsh speaking areas have to do with this...trying saying that in Merthyr and see how far you getOldKingCole said:
Try saying that in a Welsh-speaking area.TheScreamingEagles said:
I know Wales isn't a real country but their rugby fans get very upset when you point that out.rpjs said:
Wales has been part of the Kingdom of England since 1535.TheScreamingEagles said:
I thought you lived in Wales?John_M said:I shall stay here. I will not abandon my beloved England, despite Comrade Corbyn.
They then suggest where I should stick the sweet chariot.
'Stand up if you've won a world cup'
The locals got a bit touchy about that.0 -
A Labour government elected despite minimal support from pensioners could, and probably will, do it. A Tory government couldn't. I don't necessarily mind the idea in principle though I'd surely be a loser from it along with almost all homeowners in the home counties. Surely the % of land value would need to vary from region to region or there would need to be an absolutely massive transfer of receipts from south to north....such a system would further erode local democracy.TGOHF said:
Would lead to a lot of council houses in city centres being not viable to maintain unless they were tower blocks.Gardenwalker said:
Seems to work in many places. In New Zealand your “rateable value” is set every couple of years by the council. You are free to appeal of course.TGOHF said:
Will a computer model be providing an annual update on the value of each parcel of land or will it be a civil servant with a clipboard ?rkrkrk said:
So the tax is not based on the value of the home but the value of the land underneath the home. So negative equity doesn't come into it.TheScreamingEagles said:
But that wealth they've not touched or spent it.
It's not money in their bank account.
Say if they were suffering negative equity, would a LVT mean they get money back from the government?
If you own land worth say 50k, then you might pay 500 pounds a year. If the value of the land fell for whatever reason, you would pay less per year. I can't see how the land could be valued negatively, but i suppose if it was you would receive money from the gov
Economically speaking its been described as a perfect tax - almost impossible to avoid, and with side effects of improving market efficiency. I also think there's a very good case that it could contribute to improving the stability of the housing market and reducing the risk of a future financial crisis in that area.
What could possibly go wrong ?
The present system massively benefits those who are rich in housing assets. I’m in favour of change, although it would penalise me personally.
Plus a lot of grannys being forced out of their houses.
Good luck with that in a manifesto.0 -
O/T I delighted to report that, as a result of changes in the inflation rate last autumn my OAP will be increased in April. Further, as a result of acheiving the ago of 80 a few weeks later my pension will be furrther increased by the magnificent sum of 25p per week.
I’ve no idea why it’ll cost me a further 25p a week to live then. Or what I’m supposed to need to spend it on.0 -
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...0 -
F1: apparently the Force India name change is 50/50 (by Australia).
More importantly, Perez and Ocon are free to race*.
*one suspects this may have detrimental impact upon their car insurance premiums.0 -
Might be pensioners at the sharp end but when middle aged see their parents getting turfed out of their houses and see their inheritances going South - there will be a backlash.HHemmelig said:
A Labour government elected despite minimal support from pensioners could, and probably will, do it. A Tory government couldn't. I don't necessarily mind the idea in principle though I'd surely be a loser from it along with almost all homeowners in the home counties. Surely the % of land value would need to vary from region to region or there would need to be an absolutely massive transfer of receipts from south to north....such a system would further erode local democracy.TGOHF said:
Would lead to a lot of council houses in city centres being not viable to maintain unless they were tower blocks.Gardenwalker said:
Seems to work in many places. In New Zealand your “rateable value” is set every couple of years by the council. You are free to appeal of course.TGOHF said:
Will a computer model be providing an annual update on the value of each parcel of land or will it be a civil servant with a clipboard ?rkrkrk said:
So the tax is not based on the value of the home but the value of the land underneath the home. So negative equity doesn't come into it.TheScreamingEagles said:
But that wealth they've not touched or spent it.
It's not money in their bank account.
Say if they were suffering negative equity, would a LVT mean they get money back from the government?
If you own land worth say 50k, then you might pay 500 pounds a year. If the value of the land fell for whatever reason, you would pay less per year. I can't see how the land could be valued negatively, but i suppose if it was you would receive money from the gov
Economically speaking its been described as a perfect tax - almost impossible to avoid, and with side effects of improving market efficiency. I also think there's a very good case that it could contribute to improving the stability of the housing market and reducing the risk of a future financial crisis in that area.
What could possibly go wrong ?
The present system massively benefits those who are rich in housing assets. I’m in favour of change, although it would penalise me personally.
Plus a lot of grannys being forced out of their houses.
Good luck with that in a manifesto.
It's just an envy tax and a tax on the immobile.
Smart investors will divest into gold, jewels, bitcoins...
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Probably not as small as that - but that would be the idea. A block of flats is a more efficient use of the land available. The stereotypical stockbroker in his large house and enormous gardens would be harder hit.Beverley_C said:
What about a block of flats? Small amount of land, large number of people. Does their "Land tax" work out at £10 per year or something ludicrously small?Gardenwalker said:
Seems to work in many places. In New Zealand your “rateable value” is set every couple of years by the council. You are free to appeal of course.TGOHF said:
Will a computer model be providing an annual update on the value of each parcel of land or will it be a civil servant with a clipboard ?rkrkrk said:
So the tax is not based on the value of the home but the value of the land underneath the home. So negative equity doesn't come into it.TheScreamingEagles said:
But that wealth they've not touched or spent it.
It's not money in their bank account.
Say if they were suffering negative equity, would a LVT mean they get money back from the government?
If you own land worth say 50k, then you might pay 500 pounds a year. If the value of the land fell for whatever reason, you would pay less per year. I can't see how the land could be valued negatively, but i suppose if it was you would receive money from the govt.
http://www.landvaluetax.org/what-is-lvt/
Economically speaking its been described as a perfect tax - almost impossible to avoid, and with side effects of improving market efficiency. I also think there's a very good case that it could contribute to improving the stability of the housing market and reducing the risk of a future financial crisis in that area.
What could possibly go wrong ?
The present system massively benefits those who are rich in housing assets. I’m in favour of change, although it would penalise me personally.0 -
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...0 -
One of the biggest problems with U.K. productivity is our land use. We need to fix our weird relationship with property.HHemmelig said:
A Labour government elected despite minimal support from pensioners could, and probably will, do it. A Tory government couldn't. I don't necessarily mind the idea in principle though I'd surely be a loser from it along with almost all homeowners in the home counties. Surely the % of land value would need to vary from region to region or there would need to be an absolutely massive transfer of receipts from south to north....such a system would further erode local democracy.TGOHF said:
Would lead to a lot of council houses in city centres being not viable to maintain unless they were tower blocks.Gardenwalker said:
Seems to work in many places. In New Zealand your “rateable value” is set every couple of years by the council. You are free to appeal of course.TGOHF said:
Will a computer model be providing an annual update on the value of each parcel of land or will it be a civil servant with a clipboard ?rkrkrk said:
So the tax is not based on the value of the home but the value of the land underneath the home. So negative equity doesn't come into it.TheScreamingEagles said:
But that wealth they've not touched or spent it.
It's not money in their bank account.
Say if they were suffering negative equity, would a LVT mean they get money back from the government?
If you own land worth say 50k, then you might pay 500 pounds a year. If the value of the land fell for whatever reason, you would pay less per year. I can't see how the land could be valued negatively, but i suppose if it was you would receive money from the gov
Economically speaking its been described as a perfect tax - almost impossible to avoid, and with side effects of improving market efficiency. I also think there's a very good case that it could contribute to improving the stability of the housing market and reducing the risk of a future financial crisis in that area.
What could possibly go wrong ?
The present system massively benefits those who are rich in housing assets. I’m in favour of change, although it would penalise me personally.
Plus a lot of grannys being forced out of their houses.
Good luck with that in a manifesto.
It will happen. We’ve take income tax as far as it realistically can go - at least in terms of fiscal returns. Corporation tax needs to stay globally competitive. VAT is regressive. People are smoking and drinking less, and I’d expect to see less opportunity to tax motorists in the future, too. Commerce is going online which means business rates change can’t much...0 -
50/50 is a really silly name for an F1 Team.Morris_Dancer said:F1: apparently the Force India name change is 50/50 (by Australia).
More importantly, Perez and Ocon are free to race*.
*one suspects this may have detrimental impact upon their car insurance premiums.0 -
Yep. The days when my next door neighbour, now sadly long dead, who would have made Alf Garnett look like a progressive leftie, told me with a straight face that Blair's was the best Tory government since the heyday of Thatcher. Seems a long time ago.MarqueeMark said:
When Brown continued to run the economy along the same lines as if Ken Clarke had still been Chancellor....HHemmelig said:
These days that is true of all politicians not just Labour ones.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Nabavi, yeah, it's like Labour and Keynes. They remember the bit about splurging money during a bust, and then magically forget the bit about running a tight ship during a boom.
Ironically the last "tight ship" from a Keynesian perspective was run by Labour in 1997-2001, before Brown started splashing the cash.0 -
Lol - but the current arrangements enable plethora of illegal products flow both ways over the border - drugs and guns.Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
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Pay per use for public services could raise plenty of money.Gardenwalker said:
One of the biggest problems with U.K. productivity is our land use. We need to fix our weird relationship with property.HHemmelig said:
A Labour government elected despite minimal support from pensioners could, and probably will, do it. A Tory government couldn't. I don't necessarily mind the idea in principle though I'd surely be a loser from it along with almost all homeowners in the home counties. Surely the % of land value would need to vary from region to region or there would need to be an absolutely massive transfer of receipts from south to north....such a system would further erode local democracy.TGOHF said:
Would lead to a lot of council houses in city centres being not viable to maintain unless they were tower blocks.Gardenwalker said:
Seems to work in many places. In New Zealand your “rateable value” is set every couple of years by the council. You are free to appeal of course.TGOHF said:
Will a computer model be providing an annual update on the value of each parcel of land or will it be a civil servant with a clipboard ?rkrkrk said:
So the tax is not based on the value of the home but the value of the land underneath the home. So negative equity doesn't come into it.TheScreamingEagles said:
But that wealth they've not touched or spent it.
It's not money in their bank account.
Say if they were suffering negative equity, would a LVT mean they get money back from the government?
a.
What could possibly go wrong ?
The present system massively benefits those who are rich in housing assets. I’m in favour of change, although it would penalise me personally.
Plus a lot of grannys being forced out of their houses.
Good luck with that in a manifesto.
It will happen. We’ve take income tax as far as it realistically can go - at least in terms of fiscal returns. Corporation tax needs to stay globally competitive. VAT is regressive. People are smoking and drinking less, and I’d expect to see less opportunity to tax motorists in the future, too. Commerce is going online which means business rates change can’t much...
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I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.0 -
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.0 -
Remember that evil American horse meat that was in Tesco lasagna ?John_M said:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
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https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/06/hoverboards-mass-recall-danger-explosion-fire-hazardsBenpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/news/business/warning-of-the-dangers-of-counterfeit-straighteners-1-7010934
What like now ?0 -
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Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.Benpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.0 -
First, you need to be able to identify the chlorinated chicken or antibioticised beef before you can decide... so clear labelling required but wait, doesn't that imply a regulation - opps there goes our unrestricted free tradde offer.John_M said:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
Secondly, you and I (also in the sticks) may have the luxury of picking our food and food miles carefully but the most people don't. (Nor it seems from recent news do most restaurants care that much.)0 -
Man of the people.....AndyJS said:SeanT is in the Seychelles.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox0 -
Mr. Eagles, their unofficial name of the Pink Panthers is quite good.0
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Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...0 -
As a true man of the people he’s advocating we stay in the single market to protect The City.FrancisUrquhart said:
Man of the people.....AndyJS said:SeanT is in the Seychelles.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox0 -
Have you got as far as his toilet - with in-built enema?AndyJS said:SeanT is in the Seychelles.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox
No further comment required......
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So, with the current regulations some nasties get through; you use that to justify no need for any controls at all.TGOHF said:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/06/hoverboards-mass-recall-danger-explosion-fire-hazardsBenpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/news/business/warning-of-the-dangers-of-counterfeit-straighteners-1-7010934
What like now ?
You might as well say: some burglaries happen even though it's illegal, so why not scrap that law.0 -
Why do you associate free trade with no regulation or labelling ?Benpointer said:
First, you need to be able to identify the chlorinated chicken or antibioticised beef before you can decide... so clear labelling required but wait, doesn't that imply a regulation - opps there goes our unrestricted free tradde offer.John_M said:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
Secondly, you and I (also in the sticks) may have the luxury of picking our food and food miles carefully but the most people don't. (Nor it seems from recent news do most restaurants care that much.)
Haggis is banned from being imported into the USA - am sure McSweens would be happy to put a big label on it saying "contains lungs" and enable exports to the US.0 -
That's an argument in favour of cheap imports, surely?Benpointer said:[snip]
Secondly, you and I (also in the sticks) may have the luxury of picking our food and food miles carefully but the most people don't...0 -
But they will still need somewhere to live.....TGOHF said:Might be pensioners at the sharp end but when middle aged see their parents getting turfed out of their houses and see their inheritances going South - there will be a backlash.
It's just an envy tax and a tax on the immobile.
Smart investors will divest into gold, jewels, bitcoins...0 -
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.Mexicanpete said:
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...0 -
Are they going Dutch?Morris_Dancer said:F1: apparently the Force India name change is 50/50 (by Australia).
0 -
TheScreamingEagles said:
As a true man of the people he’s advocating we stay in the single market to protect The City.FrancisUrquhart said:
Man of the people.....AndyJS said:SeanT is in the Seychelles.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox
At the moment it appears the only advocating m he is doing is to stay in a 6* hotel in the Seychelles...Not jealous at all..Not at all....0 -
Mr. Mark, I would be surprised if they became known as Force Netherlands.0
-
How the other arse live....MarqueeMark said:
Have you got as far as his toilet - with in-built enema?AndyJS said:SeanT is in the Seychelles.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox
No further comment required......0 -
Have you got as far as his support for a second referendum?MarqueeMark said:
Have you got as far as his toilet - with in-built enema?AndyJS said:SeanT is in the Seychelles.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox
No further comment required......
0 -
-
We may be at cross purposes. I'm assuming that we will sign fairly conventional FTAs which, while they may abolish tariffs, have regulations regarding labelling, RoOs and so forth.Benpointer said:
First, you need to be able to identify the chlorinated chicken or antibioticised beef before you can decide... so clear labelling required but wait, doesn't that imply a regulation - opps there goes our unrestricted free tradde offer.John_M said:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
Secondly, you and I (also in the sticks) may have the luxury of picking our food and food miles carefully but the most people don't. (Nor it seems from recent news do most restaurants care that much.)
I'm with Gove in that we should have a race to the top, not t'other way about. A robust food labelling regime is, I believe, what most consumers want. Personally, I'm not bothered about chicken or antibiotics in beef (we're no angels - even Waitrose meat contains antibiotics). I just wouldn't buy meat from abroad.0 -
Two points on this. As Michael Gove has said, the primary concern about US chicken is not that the chlorination will hurt you as that it's masking the problems of very high-density chicken farming. This is primarily an animal welfare issue (so you can eat the chicken but you might not like how it lived) but also has possible health problems (e.g. overuse of antibiotics) and environmental implications.John_M said:
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how we're going to be forced to buy this radioactive chicken (which I've eaten in the US many times, lovely). This vision we peddle of our sheep-like consumers belies my personal experience.
Most people I know are incredibly picky about food, particularly meat; food miles is still a thing out here in the sticks.
Point 2 is the crude one: if there's ever something in food that tends to kill you, you can't assess it well by hearing what people say from experience, because the sample is biased to people who aren't dead.
I'm not actually claiming that American chickens do kill you - it's more of a general statistical observation on all "Well, it's never hurt me..." posts. Used to be quite common among smokers - "I'm 83 and I'm still alive, so smoking must be harmless") 0 -
As no supermarkets in the ROI will be permitted to sell USA chicken - what would be the point in importing them for export to the ROI ?Benpointer said:
So, with the current regulations some nasties get through; you use that to justify no need for any controls at all.TGOHF said:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/06/hoverboards-mass-recall-danger-explosion-fire-hazardsBenpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/news/business/warning-of-the-dangers-of-counterfeit-straighteners-1-7010934
What like now ?
You might as well say: some burglaries happen even though it's illegal, so why not scrap that law.
A criminal act would be required - similar to the horse lasagne.0 -
So I ask again - how much of that benefit are you going to lose by paying it over to the EU?TheScreamingEagles said:
I believe the government's impact assessment showed that remaining in The/A Customs Union was of a huge net benefit to the country than not.MarqueeMark said:
And I'll ask the same question of her as I'd ask of Jeremy Corbyn: how much will A Customs Union cost us? Ball-park number will do, Anna. Show us some cost-benefit analysis.....TheScreamingEagles said:
She does, that's why she's backing leaving The Customs Union and joining A Customs Union.MarqueeMark said:
Does Anna Soubry know?TheScreamingEagles said:
I do remember.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, you may (or may not, of course) recall that I said many times I was fairly relaxed about leaving the EU in terms of a spectrum of reasonable deals. The only absolute red line I had was the customs union, and not being in it.
We're leaving The Customs Union.0 -
"How many Conservative MPs would risk Prime Minister Corbyn over Brexit?
Coffee House
Katy Balls"
https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/02/how-many-conservative-mps-would-risk-prime-minister-corbyn-over-brexit/0 -
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.Benpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
0 -
NoneMarqueeMark said:So I ask again - how much of that benefit are you going to lose by paying it over to the EU?
Paying millions to generate billions, does not mean "saving millions" nets you anything
Brexit is a cost, not a benefit0 -
Clearly not used the enema yet then - if he is still full of shit......williamglenn said:
Have you got as far as his support for a second referendum?MarqueeMark said:
Have you got as far as his toilet - with in-built enema?AndyJS said:SeanT is in the Seychelles.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox
No further comment required......0 -
But could be all electronic.Benpointer said:
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.Benpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.0 -
My disabled cousin rages at "having someone to wipe my arse for me" as shorthand for having a carer, on the grounds that arsewiping is the single thing that disabled-facing technology probably does best, and has for decades.MarqueeMark said:
Have you got as far as his toilet - with in-built enema?AndyJS said:SeanT is in the Seychelles.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox
No further comment required......0 -
Cannot see it happening.Scott_P said:0 -
MarqueeMark said:
Clearly not used the enema yet then - if he is still full of shit......williamglenn said:
Have you got as far as his support for a second referendum?MarqueeMark said:
Have you got as far as his toilet - with in-built enema?AndyJS said:SeanT is in the Seychelles.
https://twitter.com/thomasknox
No further comment required...... Very funny - even if completely misguided! 0 -
Glad to hear that.TGOHF said:
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.Mexicanpete said:
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?0 -
-
It has some at the moment, as you would find if you loaded up a white van with Jameson whiskey in Dublin, drove it to Belfast, and started hawking it around pubs there, without telling HMRC.Benpointer said:Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.
But 'some level of friction' (i.e. some administrative declarations for commercial traffic, perhaps with exemptions for small businesses and farmers) is not the same as a hard border, much though the naysayers would love it to be.0 -
We've already lost the benefit in its entirety through A50 (or we are in the process of losing it). Personally, I'd pay 75% to gain 25% of it back, given the corollary benefits of increased growth rates. Others will, of course, have a different threshold.MarqueeMark said:
So I ask again - how much of that benefit are you going to lose by paying it over to the EU?TheScreamingEagles said:
I believe the government's impact assessment showed that remaining in The/A Customs Union was of a huge net benefit to the country than not.MarqueeMark said:
And I'll ask the same question of her as I'd ask of Jeremy Corbyn: how much will A Customs Union cost us? Ball-park number will do, Anna. Show us some cost-benefit analysis.....TheScreamingEagles said:
She does, that's why she's backing leaving The Customs Union and joining A Customs Union.MarqueeMark said:
Does Anna Soubry know?TheScreamingEagles said:
I do remember.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, you may (or may not, of course) recall that I said many times I was fairly relaxed about leaving the EU in terms of a spectrum of reasonable deals. The only absolute red line I had was the customs union, and not being in it.
We're leaving The Customs Union.0 -
A small portion of it.MarqueeMark said:
So I ask again - how much of that benefit are you going to lose by paying it over to the EU?TheScreamingEagles said:
I believe the government's impact assessment showed that remaining in The/A Customs Union was of a huge net benefit to the country than not.MarqueeMark said:
And I'll ask the same question of her as I'd ask of Jeremy Corbyn: how much will A Customs Union cost us? Ball-park number will do, Anna. Show us some cost-benefit analysis.....TheScreamingEagles said:
She does, that's why she's backing leaving The Customs Union and joining A Customs Union.MarqueeMark said:
Does Anna Soubry know?TheScreamingEagles said:
I do remember.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, you may (or may not, of course) recall that I said many times I was fairly relaxed about leaving the EU in terms of a spectrum of reasonable deals. The only absolute red line I had was the customs union, and not being in it.
We're leaving The Customs Union.
It's a massive net benefit for the UK0 -
Perhaps we should be in a Customs Union with the EU? - just a thoughtMexicanpete said:
Glad to hear that.TGOHF said:
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.Mexicanpete said:
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics? 0 -
think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue0 -
More likely, given it would go to tender, oursource it to the People's Republic of China (who, due to our open doors unitateral free trade policy would be able to undercut all competition).Scott_P said:TGOHF said:But could be all electronic.
Take Back Control of our borders!
Outsource border security to IBM...
Yeah, that's what people voted for.
0 -
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?TGOHF said:
But could be all electronic.Benpointer said:
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.Benpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.0 -
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.Mexicanpete said:
Glad to hear that.TGOHF said:
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.Mexicanpete said:
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
0 -
What does it mean to have "Britain having ‘a’ customs union arrangement of one sort or another"?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cannot see it happening.Scott_P said:
I don't think TMay has ruled out every sort of "arrangement".0 -
And it will be illegal to retail non EU marked electricals in ROI, presumably, and the Garda can stop and seize them anywhere between the border and the retailer. Crossing borders is fundamental to a few crimes like illegal immigration and evasion of duty, in other cases the border is just de facto a convenient bottleneck in which to grab people.TGOHF said:
As no supermarkets in the ROI will be permitted to sell USA chicken - what would be the point in importing them for export to the ROI ?Benpointer said:
So, with the current regulations some nasties get through; you use that to justify no need for any controls at all.TGOHF said:
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/jul/06/hoverboards-mass-recall-danger-explosion-fire-hazardsBenpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/news/business/warning-of-the-dangers-of-counterfeit-straighteners-1-7010934
What like now ?
You might as well say: some burglaries happen even though it's illegal, so why not scrap that law.
A criminal act would be required - similar to the horse lasagne.0 -
Mexicanpete said:
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?TGOHF said:
But could be all electronic.Benpointer said:
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.Benpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
In the same way as it doesn't stop non EU illegals now.0 -
So no change then ?Benpointer said:
More likely, given it would go to tender, oursource it to the People's Republic of China (who, due to our open doors unitateral free trade policy would be able to undercut all competition).Scott_P said:TGOHF said:But could be all electronic.
Take Back Control of our borders!
Outsource border security to IBM...
Yeah, that's what people voted for.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2018/02/20/uk-cyber-security-agency-sticks-chinas-huawei-despite-us-spy/
" Matthew Field
20 FEBRUARY 2018 • 11:43AM
The UK’s top cyber security agency has reaffirmed its commitment to working with Chinese smartphone giant Huawei after US spy chiefs accused the company of presenting a national security risk.
The Government and the National Cyber Security Centre (NCSC) will “continue to benefit” from collaboration with Huawei, according to an NCSC spokesman. It comes despite US government employees potentially being banned from using the Chinese company's smartphones due to security fears."0 -
There are no longer any Polish hop pickers. They were replaced by Bulgarian and Romanian hop pickers. Facetiousness aside, if you are a future would-be illegal immigrant, just get a tourist visa and overstay.Mexicanpete said:
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?TGOHF said:
But could be all electronic.Benpointer said:
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.Benpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.0 -
It’ll be a customs union in everything but name?TheWhiteRabbit said:
What does it mean to have "Britain having ‘a’ customs union arrangement of one sort or another"?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cannot see it happening.Scott_P said:
I don't think TMay has ruled out every sort of "arrangement".
The no customs restrictions agreement for example ?0 -
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.TGOHF said:
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.Mexicanpete said:
Glad to hear that.TGOHF said:
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.Mexicanpete said:
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?0 -
I'd expect Spanish nurses will still be able to come on holiday and bathe in our chlorinated swimming pools.Mexicanpete said:
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.TGOHF said:
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.Mexicanpete said:
Glad to hear that.TGOHF said:
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.Mexicanpete said:
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?0 -
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an electionABLAABL said:think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue0 -
So voting Brexit to stop the arrival of Johnny Foreigner was all smoke and mirrors? The public must be told!TGOHF said:Mexicanpete said:
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?TGOHF said:
But could be all electronic.Benpointer said:
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.Benpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
In the same way as it doesn't stop non EU illegals now.0 -
I don't polish my shoes, let alone my hop pickerMexicanpete said:
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?TGOHF said:
But could be all electronic.Benpointer said:
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.Benpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.0 -
'Transition period' bad; 'implementation period' good.TheScreamingEagles said:
It’ll be a customs union in everything but name?TheWhiteRabbit said:
What does it mean to have "Britain having ‘a’ customs union arrangement of one sort or another"?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cannot see it happening.Scott_P said:
I don't think TMay has ruled out every sort of "arrangement".
The no customs restrictions agreement for example ?
'Customs Union' bad; 'some sort of let's not have any customs arrangement' good.
I am sure JRM and go won't see through that will they?0 -
So give us numbers then. Cuz if you think the EU is going to let us keep the great bulk of that "massive net benefit" gratis......TheScreamingEagles said:
A small portion of it.MarqueeMark said:
So I ask again - how much of that benefit are you going to lose by paying it over to the EU?TheScreamingEagles said:
I believe the government's impact assessment showed that remaining in The/A Customs Union was of a huge net benefit to the country than not.MarqueeMark said:
And I'll ask the same question of her as I'd ask of Jeremy Corbyn: how much will A Customs Union cost us? Ball-park number will do, Anna. Show us some cost-benefit analysis.....TheScreamingEagles said:
She does, that's why she's backing leaving The Customs Union and joining A Customs Union.MarqueeMark said:
Does Anna Soubry know?TheScreamingEagles said:
I do remember.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Eagles, you may (or may not, of course) recall that I said many times I was fairly relaxed about leaving the EU in terms of a spectrum of reasonable deals. The only absolute red line I had was the customs union, and not being in it.
We're leaving The Customs Union.
It's a massive net benefit for the UK0 -
Tyndall and R Smithson were arguing amongst themselves recently about what a free trade deal would mean we could or couldn’t do.TheScreamingEagles said:
I have written reports from people who have worked, inter alia at the WTO, who say otherwise.Richard_Tyndall said:
No it doesn't. If you think that you really don't know what you are talking about.TheScreamingEagles said:
Protects trade and the economy ensuring no disruption to trade.Sean_F said:
How does their proposed amendment assist us?TheScreamingEagles said:
Country before party.Essexit said:She won't be facing an entirely united Labour Party. There's the Labour Leavers plus Caroline Flint and other Brexit means Brexit Remainers. Tories flirting with the idea of rebelling night ask themselves if they really want to hand Jeremy Corbyn this victory.
A bad Brexit begets Corbyn as Prime Minister.
Soubry, Grieve et al are acting like true patriots.
It also solves the Irish Border question.
I know they are experts but I'll place more faith in their views than yours.
PB Leavers’ finest minds with no clue between them what Leaving actually meant.0 -
Vacationing in the Uk will not be banned after Brexit - you heard it here first.Mexicanpete said:
So voting Brexit to stop the arrival of Johnny Foreigner was all smoke and mirrors? The public must be told!TGOHF said:Mexicanpete said:
How will an electronic system stop your Polish hop picker crossing the border into the UK?TGOHF said:
But could be all electronic.Benpointer said:
Unless we are in a customs union with the EU, the IRE/NI or the NI/GB border will have some level of friction.Richard_Nabavi said:
Oh, I agree that the Patrick Minford idea is a complete non-starter (although I think he's advocating zero tariffs, not zero safety standards). But we need to think clearly, and it simply is not the case that there is some universal law of nature which dictates that there would have to be a hard border and customs inspections simply because regulations (and even tariffs) applied to cross-border trade. The nature of any enforcement mechanism would be a political/administrative decision, based (one would hope) on an objective assessment of risks, and frankly the risk of dodgy chickens crossing the border in huge numbers, and somehow even getting across to France and Germany, without anyone noticing, is zero - certainly far less than the current risk of cigarette smuggling.Benpointer said:
Ok, they could allow it, but why would they? Of course they wouldn't.Richard_Nabavi said:
Why not?Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
And how many incidents (deaths) due to un-restricted imports of sub-standard food, electricals, pharmaceuticals etc. would we it take before our unilateral free trade policy brought the government of the day down? Admit it, it's a complete non-starter.
In the same way as it doesn't stop non EU illegals now.0 -
...and eat our chlorinated chicken, fair point, so long as they go back to ROI when their visas expire!TGOHF said:
I'd expect Spanish nurses will still be able to come on holiday and bathe in our chlorinated swimming pools.Mexicanpete said:
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.TGOHF said:
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.Mexicanpete said:
Glad to hear that.TGOHF said:
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.Mexicanpete said:
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?0 -
I wonder if TM is working on the basis that she holds her line until a vote in the HOC and in the event she loses the vote she accepts the decision and negotiates on that basis as the Brexiteer's will to all intents and purposes have lost their power.Benpointer said:
'Transition period' bad; 'implementation period' good.TheScreamingEagles said:
It’ll be a customs union in everything but name?TheWhiteRabbit said:
What does it mean to have "Britain having ‘a’ customs union arrangement of one sort or another"?TheScreamingEagles said:
Cannot see it happening.Scott_P said:
I don't think TMay has ruled out every sort of "arrangement".
The no customs restrictions agreement for example ?
'Customs Union' bad; 'some sort of let's not have any customs arrangement' good.
I am sure JRM and go won't see through that will they?
It is unlikely to result in a vote of no confidence as not one of the rebel conservatives will vote to put Corbyn in no 10
0 -
They probably wont need a visa for visiting either.Mexicanpete said:
...and eat our chlorinated chicken, fair point, so long as they go back to ROI when their visas expire!TGOHF said:
I'd expect Spanish nurses will still be able to come on holiday and bathe in our chlorinated swimming pools.Mexicanpete said:
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.TGOHF said:
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.Mexicanpete said:
Glad to hear that.TGOHF said:
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.Mexicanpete said:
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Just to work , access public services for free etc.0 -
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an electionABLAABL said:think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue
Edit: and if you think JRM wouldn’t bring the house down around his ears on a point of principle, no matter how misguided, you haven’t been paying attention.0 -
Is Johnson's final statement ironic? Or is irony lost on Johnson?Scott_P said:0 -
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own governmentTOPPING said:
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an electionABLAABL said:think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue0 -
See my editBig_G_NorthWales said:
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own governmentTOPPING said:
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an electionABLAABL said:think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue0 -
No, that is snow in the sky here.Big_G_NorthWales said:
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own governmentTOPPING said:
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an electionABLAABL said:think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue0 -
Surely May can outflank both Corbyn and the loons by offering a second referendum.TOPPING said:
See my editBig_G_NorthWales said:
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own governmentTOPPING said:
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an electionABLAABL said:think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue0 -
"Edit: and if you think JRM wouldn’t bring the house down around his ears on a point of principle, no matter how misguided, you haven’t been paying attention."TOPPING said:
See my editBig_G_NorthWales said:
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own governmentTOPPING said:
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an electionABLAABL said:think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue
I see no evidence for that. No more than Soubry anyway..0 -
In the latest "the EU has no bloody idea how the internet or taxation works" news, this:
https://twitter.com/Holbornlolz/status/9681612307320012800 -
So cash in hand in the fields of Lincolnshire will be OK then! We've been conned!TGOHF said:
They probably wont need a visa for visiting either.Mexicanpete said:
...and eat our chlorinated chicken, fair point, so long as they go back to ROI when their visas expire!TGOHF said:
I'd expect Spanish nurses will still be able to come on holiday and bathe in our chlorinated swimming pools.Mexicanpete said:
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.TGOHF said:
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.Mexicanpete said:
Glad to hear that.TGOHF said:
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.Mexicanpete said:
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Just to work , access public services for free etc.0 -
I just not see the path to a no confidence vote on the government in the HOCTOPPING said:
See my editBig_G_NorthWales said:
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own governmentTOPPING said:
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an electionABLAABL said:think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue0 -
NEWS JUST IN : Breaking the law will still be illegal after Brexit !!!Mexicanpete said:
So cash in hand in the fields of Lincolnshire will be OK then! We've been conned!TGOHF said:
They probably wont need a visa for visiting either.Mexicanpete said:
...and eat our chlorinated chicken, fair point, so long as they go back to ROI when their visas expire!TGOHF said:
I'd expect Spanish nurses will still be able to come on holiday and bathe in our chlorinated swimming pools.Mexicanpete said:
OK, they don't want our chlorinated chicken from the USA, but we don't want their Spanish nurses either, so surely they razor wire and gun turrets are in both our interests.TGOHF said:
Given the practicalities of the EU installing and maintaining the "hard border" at the ROI - we can safely say it isn't happening.Mexicanpete said:
Glad to hear that.TGOHF said:
On a cost/benefit analysis - no.Mexicanpete said:
Are you suggesting we annex Southern Ireland to progress Brexit?TGOHF said:
One thing is clear from Brexit - the idea that the ROI is an independent country is thoroughly disproved..Benpointer said:
Even that, disasterous though it would be, wouldn't achive a frictionless IRE/NI border because Ireland couldn't allow unrestricted imports from NI that might include, for example, substandard electricals from China and/or chlorinated chicken from the US (which those countries would happily dump on us once we declare free trade with the whole world.)rkrkrk said:
Unilaterally declaring free trade with the whole world a la Patrick Minford presumably would.Benpointer said:Is there anything, other than a Customs Union, that will allow both frictionless trade between Ireland and NI, and between NI and Great Britain?
But would probably be fairly disastrous for our industry in other ways...
On the question of the frictionless border without a customs arrangement how does that work? Or, as the mood music from government changes towards a hard border and a tearing up of The Good Friday Agreement, is a return to guerrilla warfare a price worth paying? I would say not, so like I said frictionless border with no customs arrangements, what are the mechanics?
Just to work , access public services for free etc.
0 -
Soubry is trying to stop her government from making a cataclysmic economic mistake, as she sees it.TGOHF said:
"Edit: and if you think JRM wouldn’t bring the house down around his ears on a point of principle, no matter how misguided, you haven’t been paying attention."TOPPING said:
See my editBig_G_NorthWales said:
Pie in the sky - they will not vote out their own governmentTOPPING said:
He can bring the debate to the point whereby the Tory Euroloons rebel en masse rather than concede some tiny point which they don’t understand anyway and vote against May in a confidence vote.Big_G_NorthWales said:
As a mater of interest how do you think Corbyn can force an electionABLAABL said:think it was a decent speech, clear political distance between the Tories and Corbyn out across his message quite well without ever being in danger of approaching charisma...
Corbyn has a massive chance here to force an election if things work how he hopes it will...
https://www.abitleftandabitlost.com/posts/a-tale-of-two-brexit-speeches-and-an-eu-protocol-the-prologue
I see no evidence for that. No more than Soubry anyway..
JRM is ideologically driven.0 -
-
Oh for goodness sake. I ant her to lose the vote, not change her policy!Scott_P said:0 -
Mr. Topping, you could just as easily reverse those descriptions.
One thing I like about Mogg is that he always seems calm.0 -
So Jeremy Corbyn has decided to do what his chief opponent would least like him to do. He's getting the hang of this.0
This discussion has been closed.