RoyalBlue said:

@John_M and @Mortimer - you may be partly Welsh by ancestry, but your attitude towards the other nations and languages of these islands is 100% pig-ignorant English chauvinist.

The Welsh language and its antecedents have been spoken in Great Britain far longer than English. The Welsh language continues to be spoken by hundreds of thousands of people, and has never died out (the situation for Irish is very different). This is despite the best efforts of the government in London, which for hundreds of years conducted a campaign against the use of the language for legal, administrative and educational reasons.

The people of Wales do not need the approval of people like you to take basic steps to preserve their language and culture.

I have no problem with Welsh - but tax payer bungs and laws don't keep languages alive. And opposing government subsidy of something that most people don't need or use isn't ignorant or chauvinist, it is fiscally sound in an age of austerity. We're living beyond our means. Maybe Welsh governments should spend more money on the NHS and less on language?

RoyalBlue said:

TGOHF said:

RoyalBlue said:

@John_M and @Mortimer - you may be partly Welsh by ancestry, but your attitude towards the other nations and languages of these islands is 100% pig-ignorant English chauvinist.

The Welsh language and its antecedents have been spoken in Great Britain far longer than English. The Welsh language continues to be spoken by hundreds of thousands of people, and has never died out (the situation for Irish is very different). This is despite the best efforts of the government in London, which for hundreds of years conducted a campaign against the use of the language for legal, administrative and educational reasons.

The people of Wales do not need the approval of people like you to take basic steps to preserve their language and culture.

"Betamax is superior in quality to VHS"

If people want to talk in Welsh, Gaylick or Klingon - bully for them.

The taxpayer shouldn't be funding novelty road signs to pander to sentiment.

Let’s imagine that at some point in a hypothetical future, Urdu became the majority language of England. Would you nonchalantly accept the disappearance of the English language from public life?

The Normans tried, it didn't work. Mortimer's point is correct; Welsh is not being oppressed, and if it truly has cultural vitality it would thrive on its own merits. Painting 'Araf' on the roads is neither here nor there.

A handy (though not wholly exhaustive) list of the self-certifying Conservative fruitloop MPs has been compiled:

https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/966032765610315778

AlastairMeeks said:

A handy (though not wholly exhaustive) list of the self-certifying Conservative fruitloop MPs has been compiled:

I like the bullet point demanding that we should negotiate as an equal partner. Haven't they learnt anything from the negotiations so far?

AlastairMeeks said:

FAO @Another_Richard:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/20/farmers-tell-gove-lack-of-migrant-workers-now-mission-critical?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews#link_time=1519151519

Isn't that amusing - I look in on PB and see I'm in the thoughts of Alastair Meeks.

Now lets look at some facts as regards agricultural workers.

The most recent ONS Labour market data is available in the spreadsheet found here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/summaryoflabourmarketstatistics

Page 6 of the spreadsheet gives workforce jobs by industry and the first column is for the agricultural industry.

The most recent data shows that 457 thousand are employed in the agricultural sector, that's 37 thousand more than a year ago, 53 thousand more than five years ago, 77 thousand more than ten years ago and 105 thousand more than fifteen years ago.

Doesn't seem to be a shortage of workers there to me.

Now lets compare the increase in workers to the increase in agricultural ouput:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/l2kl/pgdp

A few simple calculations show that agricultural productivity rose steadily through the 1990s and peaked in 2002 and been on a slow downward trend since then.

So fifteen years of stagnation in the agricultural sector which suggests something has gone very wrong.

Now what might that be ? A switch from capital investment to an increasingly low skilled workforce perhaps ?

But let us put aside that issue and consider where this supposed shortage of agricultural workers could be met from.

See page 8(1) of labour market spreadsheet which gives as the latest unemployment number no less than 1.501 million people. Including no less than 281 thousand foreign born unemployed.

It seems that the current immigrants aren't 'willing to do the work' or at least aren't 'willing to do the work' for the pay and conditions being offered.

And yet we're told that the answer to this problem is 'more immigrants' and doubtless when they aren't 'willing to do the work' it will be 'more immigrants' again.

Or perhaps the UK agricultural sector should return to what worked so well in the century to 2002 ie capital investment and training leading to higher productivity, better pay and increased output.

Still its always amusing to see the Guardian campaign on behalf of businesses who aren't willing to offer fair pay and conditions.

https://twitter.com/theobertram/status/966012614101884928

AlastairMeeks said:

another_richard said:

AlastairMeeks said:

FAO @Another_Richard:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/20/farmers-tell-gove-lack-of-migrant-workers-now-mission-critical?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews#link_time=1519151519

Isn't that amusing - I look in on PB and see I'm in the thoughts of Alastair Meeks.

Now lets look at some facts as regards agricultural workers.

The most recent ONS Labour market data is available in the spreadsheet found here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/summaryoflabourmarketstatistics

Page 6 of the spreadsheet gives workforce jobs by industry and the first column is for the agricultural industry.

The most recent data shows that 457 thousand are employed in the agricultural sector, that's 37 thousand more than a year ago, 53 thousand more than five years ago, 77 thousand more than ten years ago and 105 thousand more than fifteen years ago.

Doesn't seem to be a shortage of workers there to me.

Now lets compare the increase in workers to the increase in agricultural ouput:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/l2kl/pgdp

A few simple calculations show that agricultural productivity rose steadily through the 1990s and peaked in 2002 and been on a slow downward trend since then.

So fifteen years of stagnation in the agricultural sector which suggests something has gone very wrong.

Now what might that be ? A switch from capital investment to an increasingly low skilled workforce perhaps ?

But let us put aside that issue and consider where this supposed shortage of agricultural workers could be met from.

See page 8(1) of labour market spreadsheet which gives as the latest unemployment number no less than 1.501 million people. Including no less than 281 thousand foreign born unemployed.

It seems that the current immigrants aren't 'willing to do the work' or at least aren't 'willing to do the work' for the pay and conditions being offered.

And yet we're told that the answer to this problem is 'more immigrants' and doubtless when they aren't 'willing to do the work' it will be 'more immigrants' again.

Or perhaps the UK agricultural sector should return to what worked so well in the century to 2002 ie capital investment and training leading to higher productivity, better pay and increased output.

Still its always amusing to see the Guardian campaign on behalf of businesses who aren't willing to offer fair pay and conditions.

That's a very long post to ignore that:

1) the NFU sees a looming crisis and
2) Michael Gove uses language that gives a strong hint that he agrees.

What relevance is the following to farming: "the latest unemployment number no less than 1.501 million people."

How many of them live anywhere near a field?

Take back control:

https://twitter.com/sundersays/status/966034028477538304

AlastairMeeks said:

another_richard said:

Isn't that amusing - I look in on PB and see I'm in the thoughts of Alastair Meeks.

Now lets look at some facts as regards agricultural workers.

The most recent ONS Labour market data is available in the spreadsheet found here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/summaryoflabourmarketstatistics

Page 6 of the spreadsheet gives workforce jobs by industry and the first column is for the agricultural industry.

The most recent data shows that 457 thousand are employed in the agricultural sector, that's 37 thousand more than a year ago, 53 thousand more than five years ago, 77 thousand more than ten years ago and 105 thousand more than fifteen years ago.

Doesn't seem to be a shortage of workers there to me.

Now lets compare the increase in workers to the increase in agricultural ouput:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/l2kl/pgdp

A few simple calculations show that agricultural productivity rose steadily through the 1990s and peaked in 2002 and been on a slow downward trend since then.

So fifteen years of stagnation in the agricultural sector which suggests something has gone very wrong.

Now what might that be ? A switch from capital investment to an increasingly low skilled workforce perhaps ?

But let us put aside that issue and consider where this supposed shortage of agricultural workers could be met from.

See page 8(1) of labour market spreadsheet which gives as the latest unemployment number no less than 1.501 million people. Including no less than 281 thousand foreign born unemployed.

It seems that the current immigrants aren't 'willing to do the work' or at least aren't 'willing to do the work' for the pay and conditions being offered.

And yet we're told that the answer to this problem is 'more immigrants' and doubtless when they aren't 'willing to do the work' it will be 'more immigrants' again.

Or perhaps the UK agricultural sector should return to what worked so well in the century to 2002 ie capital investment and training leading to higher productivity, better pay and increased output.

Still its always amusing to see the Guardian campaign on behalf of businesses who aren't willing to offer fair pay and conditions.

That's a very long post to ignore that:

1) the NFU sees a looming crisis and
2) Michael Gove uses language that gives a strong hint that he agrees.

The NFU want an endless source of taxpayer subsidised low cost workers ?

Well I'm shocked.

And it was a long post because it contained FACTS with links to ONS source documents.

Are there any other sectors of the economy where you think falling productivity and exploitative employers should be pandered to ?

another_richard said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That's a very long post to ignore that:

1) the NFU sees a looming crisis and
2) Michael Gove uses language that gives a strong hint that he agrees.

The NFU want an endless source of taxpayer subsidised low cost workers ?

Well I'm shocked.

And it was a long post because it contained FACTS with links to ONS source documents.

Are there any other sectors of the economy where you think falling productivity and exploitative employers should be pandered to ?

I take this as a tacit admission that you now accept that labour shortages in the agricultural sector is not in fact fake news.

I'm all in favour of higher wages for employees. But I don't recall reading about Leave pushing for higher food prices post-Brexit. Perhaps that was in red type on the red bus.

https://twitter.com/SamCoatesTimes/status/966040240283635712

Anyway, it's unsurprising to see the NFU and Michael Gove making common cause. The farmer and the cowboy should be friends.

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

another_richard said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That's a very long post to ignore that:

1) the NFU sees a looming crisis and
2) Michael Gove uses language that gives a strong hint that he agrees.

The NFU want an endless source of taxpayer subsidised low cost workers ?

Well I'm shocked.

And it was a long post because it contained FACTS with links to ONS source documents.

Are there any other sectors of the economy where you think falling productivity and exploitative employers should be pandered to ?

I take this as a tacit admission that you now accept that labour shortages in the agricultural sector is not in fact fake news.

I'm all in favour of higher wages for employees. But I don't recall reading about Leave pushing for higher food prices post-Brexit. Perhaps that was in red type on the red bus.

Another_Richard graphs are interesting though are they not. Is there any other industry where the workforce has increased so much for pretty much zero output gain ?

I defer to no one in my antipathy towards farmers.

I wonder whether this might be in part a reflection of the move to organic farming, with the higher prices but lower yields.

AlastairMeeks said:

Anyway, it's unsurprising to see the NFU and Michael Gove making common cause. The farmer and the cowboy should be friends.

As I remember "Oklahoma!" the "Farmer and the Cowman" song wound up in a fight, and later the Cowman killed the farmer in a knife fight.

tlg86 said:

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

another_richard said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That's a very long post to ignore that:

1) the NFU sees a looming crisis and
2) Michael Gove uses language that gives a strong hint that he agrees.

The NFU want an endless source of taxpayer subsidised low cost workers ?

Well I'm shocked.

And it was a long post because it contained FACTS with links to ONS source documents.

Are there any other sectors of the economy where you think falling productivity and exploitative employers should be pandered to ?

I take this as a tacit admission that you now accept that labour shortages in the agricultural sector is not in fact fake news.

I'm all in favour of higher wages for employees. But I don't recall reading about Leave pushing for higher food prices post-Brexit. Perhaps that was in red type on the red bus.

Another_Richard graphs are interesting though are they not. Is there any other industry where the workforce has increased so much for pretty much zero output gain ?

Car washing?

Lawyers?

AlastairMeeks said:

Pulpstar said:

AlastairMeeks said:

another_richard said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That's a very long post to ignore that:

1) the NFU sees a looming crisis and
2) Michael Gove uses language that gives a strong hint that he agrees.

The NFU want an endless source of taxpayer subsidised low cost workers ?

Well I'm shocked.

And it was a long post because it contained FACTS with links to ONS source documents.

Are there any other sectors of the economy where you think falling productivity and exploitative employers should be pandered to ?

I take this as a tacit admission that you now accept that labour shortages in the agricultural sector is not in fact fake news.

I'm all in favour of higher wages for employees. But I don't recall reading about Leave pushing for higher food prices post-Brexit. Perhaps that was in red type on the red bus.

Another_Richard graphs are interesting though are they not. Is there any other industry where the workforce has increased so much for pretty much zero output gain ?

I defer to no one in my antipathy towards farmers.

I wonder whether this might be in part a reflection of the move to organic farming, with the higher prices but lower yields.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Organic_farming_statistics

Between 2012 and 2016, Croatia and Bulgaria recorded growth in the total organic area of over 100 %. However, five EU Member States reported a downward trend: Greece (-25.9 %), Malta (-35.1 %), Poland (-18.1 %), Romania (-21.5 %) and the United Kingdom (-16.9 %).

AlastairMeeks said:

another_richard said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That's a very long post to ignore that:

1) the NFU sees a looming crisis and
2) Michael Gove uses language that gives a strong hint that he agrees.

The NFU want an endless source of taxpayer subsidised low cost workers ?

Well I'm shocked.

And it was a long post because it contained FACTS with links to ONS source documents.

Are there any other sectors of the economy where you think falling productivity and exploitative employers should be pandered to ?

I take this as a tacit admission that you now accept that labour shortages in the agricultural sector is not in fact fake news.

I'm all in favour of higher wages for employees. But I don't recall reading about Leave pushing for higher food prices post-Brexit. Perhaps that was in red type on the red bus.

In your world, having to hire the necessary 10-20k extra people (per the Guardian story) means universally higher food prices. OK.

Also from the article, it explicitly states that EU countries are having to look beyond the EU's borders for seasonal workers, specifically, the Ukraine, Morocco and (bizarrely) Thailand.

AlastairMeeks said:

another_richard said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That's a very long post to ignore that:

1) the NFU sees a looming crisis and
2) Michael Gove uses language that gives a strong hint that he agrees.

The NFU want an endless source of taxpayer subsidised low cost workers ?

Well I'm shocked.

And it was a long post because it contained FACTS with links to ONS source documents.

Are there any other sectors of the economy where you think falling productivity and exploitative employers should be pandered to ?

I take this as a tacit admission that you now accept that labour shortages in the agricultural sector is not in fact fake news.

I'm all in favour of higher wages for employees. But I don't recall reading about Leave pushing for higher food prices post-Brexit. Perhaps that was in red type on the red bus.

I don't. If employment is at a record high but output isn't then there is a productivity shortage not a labour shortage.

Philip_Thompson said:

AlastairMeeks said:

another_richard said:

AlastairMeeks said:

That's a very long post to ignore that:

1) the NFU sees a looming crisis and
2) Michael Gove uses language that gives a strong hint that he agrees.

The NFU want an endless source of taxpayer subsidised low cost workers ?

Well I'm shocked.

And it was a long post because it contained FACTS with links to ONS source documents.

Are there any other sectors of the economy where you think falling productivity and exploitative employers should be pandered to ?

I take this as a tacit admission that you now accept that labour shortages in the agricultural sector is not in fact fake news.

I'm all in favour of higher wages for employees. But I don't recall reading about Leave pushing for higher food prices post-Brexit. Perhaps that was in red type on the red bus.

I don't. If employment is at a record high but output isn't then there is a productivity shortage not a labour shortage.

I suspect that the problem is the ever increasing restrictions on the use of fertilisers and phosphate. Not saying that is a bad thing but it does affect output.

I still don't see why the agricultural sector should get a special class of worker that is restricted to just agriculture. If it wants workers it can raise the pay and conditions as necessary to get them.

And while we are it, we can eliminate quotas on food imports. Working class families deserve a break in living costs.

glw said:

Philip_Thompson said:

I don't. If employment is at a record high but output isn't then there is a productivity shortage not a labour shortage.

Automation is needed, not cheap labour.

Interestingly enough we seem to be towards at the forefront of this http://www.handsfreehectare.com/press-releases

https://twitter.com/jenniferjjacobs/status/966054479496994818

MaxPB said:

Cyclefree said:

TGOHF said:

kle4 said:

TGOHF said:

MaxPB said:

The Tories need to drop all of this Corbyn was a spy rubbish. The Dems are trying (and failing) with that line against Trump. It's complete bullshit and no one cares what Jez may or may not have done 40 years ago.

Not really about whether he passed on secrets or not - it's about his character.

And he's appearing shifty and evasive - not a good look.

This is a long game and it's working so far - the story is continuing to run - and will do as long as he cowers behind not releasing his Stasi file.

I don't know how well it is working really. I was already not a fan of Corbyn but the whole thing just seemed a bit silly so I've not really bothered to keep up with events. Sure it's being talked about, but is it really being effective? I have no idea.

He's panicking and turning on the press themselves whilst refusing to answer questions. Doomed strategy.

He's a busted flush - peak Corbyn has long since passed.

https://twitter.com/WikiGuido/status/966012420698333185

He's a supporter of the Leveson controls on the press. What do you expect?

It's a play from the Trump book, "fake news" etc...

Yet the man is perfectly happen to be a paid propaganda tool of the Kremlin and the Ayatollahs. The threats to the press and the accusation that all criticism is from "the corrupt" sounds very Trumpish. I don't know how any reasonable person can support this man.

Rhubarb said:

glw said:

Philip_Thompson said:

I don't. If employment is at a record high but output isn't then there is a productivity shortage not a labour shortage.

Automation is needed, not cheap labour.

Interestingly enough we seem to be towards at the forefront of this http://www.handsfreehectare.com/press-releases

Yeah, I wasn't being snarky at all. Invest in technology, increase productivity, improve skills, and pay better wages. Of course that's not the British way.

Fourth place in the PL might not get Champions League football next season...

AlastairMeeks said:

another_richard said:

AlastairMeeks said:

FAO @Another_Richard:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/feb/20/farmers-tell-gove-lack-of-migrant-workers-now-mission-critical?utm_term=Autofeed&CMP=twt_b-gdnnews#link_time=1519151519

Isn't that amusing - I look in on PB and see I'm in the thoughts of Alastair Meeks.

Now lets look at some facts as regards agricultural workers.

The most recent ONS Labour market data is available in the spreadsheet found here:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/datasets/summaryoflabourmarketstatistics

Page 6 of the spreadsheet gives workforce jobs by industry and the first column is for the agricultural industry.

The most recent data shows that 457 thousand are employed in the agricultural sector, that's 37 thousand more than a year ago, 53 thousand more than five years ago, 77 thousand more than ten years ago and 105 thousand more than fifteen years ago.

Doesn't seem to be a shortage of workers there to me.

Now lets compare the increase in workers to the increase in agricultural ouput:

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/grossdomesticproductgdp/timeseries/l2kl/pgdp

A few simple calculations show that agricultural productivity rose steadily through the 1990s and peaked in 2002 and been on a slow downward trend since then.

So fifteen years of stagnation in the agricultural sector which suggests something has gone very wrong.

Now what might that be ? A switch from capital investment to an increasingly low skilled workforce perhaps ?

But let us put aside that issue and consider where this supposed shortage of agricultural workers could be met from.

See page 8(1) of labour market spreadsheet which gives as the latest unemployment number no less than 1.501 million people. Including no less than 281 thousand foreign born unemployed.

It seems that the current immigrants aren't 'willing to do the work' or at least aren't 'willing to do the work' for the pay and conditions being offered.

And yet we're told that the answer to this problem is 'more immigrants' and doubtless when they aren't 'willing to do the work' it will be 'more immigrants' again.

Or perhaps the UK agricultural sector should return to what worked so well in the century to 2002 ie capital investment and training leading to higher productivity, better pay and increased output.

Still its always amusing to see the Guardian campaign on behalf of businesses who aren't willing to offer fair pay and conditions.

That's a very long post to ignore that:

1) the NFU sees a looming crisis and
2) Michael Gove uses language that gives a strong hint that he agrees.

Perhaps Govey has been listening to experts.

https://twitter.com/SRUC/status/965501206633136129

glw said:

Rhubarb said:

glw said:

Philip_Thompson said:

I don't. If employment is at a record high but output isn't then there is a productivity shortage not a labour shortage.

Automation is needed, not cheap labour.

Interestingly enough we seem to be towards at the forefront of this http://www.handsfreehectare.com/press-releases

Yeah, I wasn't being snarky at all. Invest in technology, increase productivity, improve skills, and pay better wages. Of course that's not the British way.

There's negative votes to be gained in encouraging organisations to fire people and replace them with better machines and processes. But I don't think that's a particularly UK-exclusive disease; the Americans and French seem to have that issue too.

Stark_Dawning said:

Is it true that Corbyn's Czech spymaster is now claiming credit for Live Aid? The anti-Corbyn press might look a bit silly if it turns out their explosive source isn't playing with a full deck.

Yep. This is the source:

https://twitter.com/foxinsoxuk/status/965020548592996357

Rhubarb said:

There's negative votes to be gained in encouraging organisations to fire people and replace them with better machines and processes. But I don't think that's a particularly UK-exclusive disease; the Americans and French seem to have that issue too.

I know, there does seem to be a view that we measure the success of businesses and public services by the size of the workforce. Labour is a finite resource, using it efficiently is a good thing, and it would be nice to see politicians making the case for doing so.

DavidL said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth place in the PL might not get Champions League football next season...

England look set to get a lot of performance points this season with City and Liverpool already through.

Sorry, I meant finishing fourth this season is no guarantee of being in the Champions League next season.

As I say that, Barca equalise.

And to add, they've changed the qualification structure so the top four leagues get four places anyway, so there's little danger of us losing our fourth place now.

Foxy said:

DavidL said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth place in the PL might not get Champions League football next season...

England look set to get a lot of performance points this season with City and Liverpool already through.

From the Leicester point of view, we are glad that the away leg in Barca will be a tiring match. We play Chelsea a few days later in the FA cup QF

Should be the case. With Barca you spend a hell of a lot of time chasing the ball.

Elliot said:

I still don't see why the agricultural sector should get a special class of worker that is restricted to just agriculture. If it wants workers it can raise the pay and conditions as necessary to get them.

And while we are it, we can eliminate quotas on food imports. Working class families deserve a break in living costs.

It's not that simple. Seasonal work is crap, for obvious reasons. However, picking crops like soft fruit also requires some skill, so you can't just employ Johnny Teenager and expect good results.

We've had seasonal worker schemes long before the EEC or EU. However, they are not jobs that anyone would aspire to; it's not just the Brits who don't want them. As the Guardian article reports, even non-Brexit countries are struggling to find the workforce.

Philip_Thompson said:

Foxy said:

tlg86 said:

DavidL said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth place in the PL might not get Champions League football next season...

England look set to get a lot of performance points this season with City and Liverpool already through.

Sorry, I meant, finishing fourth this season is no guarantee of being in the Champions League next season.

As I say that, Barca equalise.

Contingent on Arsenal winning the Europa League? Doesn't that create a fifth place this year, in the unlikely event of it happening.

Indeed it does, as happened with United last/this season.

Only reason 4th doesn't get Champions League next season is that as always the 4th has to play a final pre-season qualifying game before the group stages. But that's always the case.

England's 4th spot was at risk but with the dominance in the group stages (all 5 English clubs won their group) and already Liverpool and City at least almost certainly through if not more then that's no longer credibly at risk.

No, the top four from the top four leagues go straight into the group stages from next season:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_UEFA_Champions_League

Philip_Thompson said:

Foxy said:

tlg86 said:

DavidL said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth place in the PL might not get Champions League football next season...

England look set to get a lot of performance points this season with City and Liverpool already through.

Sorry, I meant, finishing fourth this season is no guarantee of being in the Champions League next season.

As I say that, Barca equalise.

Contingent on Arsenal winning the Europa League? Doesn't that create a fifth place this year, in the unlikely event of it happening.

Indeed it does, as happened with United last/this season.

Only reason 4th doesn't get Champions League next season is that as always the 4th has to play a final pre-season qualifying game before the group stages. But that's always the case.

England's 4th spot was at risk but with the dominance in the group stages (all 5 English clubs won their group) and already Liverpool and City at least almost certainly through if not more then that's no longer credibly at risk.

Leicester are in the mix for a Europa League place, either via winning the FA cup (the trophy conspicuous by its absence at Leicester) or failing that 7th place. Puel likes the cup, and now Man City are gone, Puel will take it seriously.

glw said:

Rhubarb said:

There's negative votes to be gained in encouraging organisations to fire people and replace them with better machines and processes. But I don't think that's a particularly UK-exclusive disease; the Americans and French seem to have that issue too.

I know, there does seem to be a view that we measure the success of businesses and public services by the size of the workforce. Labour is a finite resource, using it efficiently is a good thing, and it would be nice to see politicians making the case for doing so.

You'd have to be particularly brave or particularly foolish to suggest something that would see you described by large elements of the press, the unions, and the public as a migrant-bashing, common-worker-hating monster. To risk being vilified for the remainder of your days takes a strong constitution.

JonnyJimmy said:

I reckon Corbyn was disappointed that he only attracted Czech interest, and that he would have given any secrets he had to the Soviets.

I hope information to him is being restricted, in a way that it shouldn't to LOTOs.

Apparently when we dispelled the Soviet "diplomats" out of London, the Czechs picked up their business.

tlg86 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Foxy said:

tlg86 said:

DavidL said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth place in the PL might not get Champions League football next season...

England look set to get a lot of performance points this season with City and Liverpool already through.

Sorry, I meant, finishing fourth this season is no guarantee of being in the Champions League next season.

As I say that, Barca equalise.

Contingent on Arsenal winning the Europa League? Doesn't that create a fifth place this year, in the unlikely event of it happening.

Indeed it does, as happened with United last/this season.

Only reason 4th doesn't get Champions League next season is that as always the 4th has to play a final pre-season qualifying game before the group stages. But that's always the case.

England's 4th spot was at risk but with the dominance in the group stages (all 5 English clubs won their group) and already Liverpool and City at least almost certainly through if not more then that's no longer credibly at risk.

No, the top four from the top four leagues go straight into the group stages from next season:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_UEFA_Champions_League

That's a change. When was that agreed? At the start of the season there was a lot of talk about us potentially losing the 4th spot (as we could have dropped to 4th-ranked league). We're well ahead of 5th though.

Already this season we've gained enough points to go from maybe-dropping-to-4th to now-upto-2nd. Having 5 clubs reach the last 16 has given us a massive points bonus.

tlg86 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

tlg86 said:

Foxy said:

tlg86 said:

DavidL said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth place in the PL might not get Champions League football next season...

England look set to get a lot of performance points this season with City and Liverpool already through.

Sorry, I meant, finishing fourth this season is no guarantee of being in the Champions League next season.

As I say that, Barca equalise.

Contingent on Arsenal winning the Europa League? Doesn't that create a fifth place this year, in the unlikely event of it happening.

That's right. Arsenal are a 6-1 shot for the Europa League. I don't really want to see Chelsea win the Champions League again, but it would be amusing if Spurs finished fourth and missed out. Again.

They don't miss out, Arsenal get a 5th English spot if that happens just as United did this season.

Only reason 4th misses out now is if both the Champions League AND the Europa League are both won by English clubs that finish outside the top 4. If by some freak of chance the league ended as it is at the moment but 5th placed Chelsea won the Champions League and 6th placed Arsenal won Europa League then and only then would 4th miss out.

Sorry, I meant it would be funny if Spurs missed out again (i.e. they missed out in 2012).

I get you. It is technically possible but hugely unlikely with the new rules (it was a lot more likely in 2012).

TheScreamingEagles said:

Robert Mueller, just wow.

When does Trump start granting pardons?

SeanT said:

Philip_Thompson said:

tlg86 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Foxy said:

tlg86 said:

DavidL said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth place in the PL might not get Champions League football next season...

England look set to get a lot of performance points this season with City and Liverpool already through.

Sorry, I meant, finishing fourth this season is no guarantee of being in the Champions League next season.

As I say that, Barca equalise.

Contingent on Arsenal winning the Europa League? Doesn't that create a fifth place this year, in the unlikely event of it happening.

Indeed it does, as happened with United last/this season.

Only reason 4th doesn't get Champions League next season is that as always the 4th has to play a final pre-season qualifying game before the group stages. But that's always the case.

England's 4th spot was at risk but with the dominance in the group stages (all 5 English clubs won their group) and already Liverpool and City at least almost certainly through if not more then that's no longer credibly at risk.

No, the top four from the top four leagues go straight into the group stages from next season:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_UEFA_Champions_League

That's a change. When was that agreed? At the start of the season there was a lot of talk about us potentially losing the 4th spot (as we could have dropped to 4th-ranked league). We're well ahead of 5th though.

Already this season we've gained enough points to go from maybe-dropping-to-4th to now-upto-2nd. Having 5 clubs reach the last 16 has given us a massive points bonus.

In the end the overwhelming financial muscle of the EPL was bound to have an effect. It may now be showing.

At what point do the rest of the leagues come up with a tax on domestic television rights?

MarqueeMark said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Robert Mueller, just wow.

When does Trump start granting pardons?

The major question is can he grant pardons to himself?

The video below, this is someone who is scared shitless.

Mueller's going after lawyers now.

I'd always assumed being a lawyer for Trump would be a difficult assignment, but it just got doubly difficult.

https://twitter.com/TheBeatWithAri/status/966032264764239872

kle4 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

MarqueeMark said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Robert Mueller, just wow.

When does Trump start granting pardons?

The major question is can he grant pardons to himself?

A question that I seem to recall came up previously some while ago.

Yep - he's hinted at it

https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/7/21/16007934/donald-trump-mueller-russia-investigation-pardon-impeachment

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-10-30/trump-russia-and-the-early-murmurs-about-pardons-quicktake-q-a

THe answer apparently is he can in federal crimes, but in state crimes he can not.

Unlucky for Trump that Mueller's been working with the Attorneys-General of several states.

TheScreamingEagles said:

The video below, this is someone who is scared shitless.

Mueller's going after lawyers now.

I'd always assumed being a lawyer for Trump would be a difficult assignment, but it just got doubly difficult.

https://twitter.com/TheBeatWithAri/status/966032264764239872

Shades of McMafia?

SeanT said:

tlg86 said:

SeanT said:

Philip_Thompson said:

tlg86 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Foxy said:

tlg86 said:

DavidL said:

tlg86 said:

Fourth place in the PL might not get Champions League football next season...

England look set to get a lot of performance points this season with City and Liverpool already through.

Sorry, I meant, finishing fourth this season is no guarantee of being in the Champions League next season.

As I say that, Barca equalise.

Contingent on Arsenal winning the Europa League? Doesn't that create a fifth place this year, in the unlikely event of it happening.

Indeed it does, as happened with United last/this season.

Only reason 4th doesn't get Champions League next season is that as always the 4th has to play a final pre-season qualifying game before the group stages. But that's always the case.

England's 4th spot was at risk but with the dominance in the group stages (all 5 English clubs won their group) and already Liverpool and City at least almost certainly through if not more then that's no longer credibly at risk.

No, the top four from the top four leagues go straight into the group stages from next season:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018–19_UEFA_Champions_League

That's a change. When was that agreed? At the start of the season there was a lot of talk about us potentially losing the 4th spot (as we could have dropped to 4th-ranked league). We're well ahead of 5th though.

Already this season we've gained enough points to go from maybe-dropping-to-4th to now-upto-2nd. Having 5 clubs reach the last 16 has given us a massive points bonus.

In the end the overwhelming financial muscle of the EPL was bound to have an effect. It may now be showing.

At what point do the rest of the leagues come up with a tax on domestic television rights?

They'd surely love to. The success of the EPL abroad is really quite bizarre. I was in Mauritius a couple of weeks ago and they are all obsessed with English football. Literally every cab driver or waiter or guide or whatever asked me about it, when they heard I was English, and they asked extremely well-informed questions which left me completely baffled (I watch a few games a year).

They watch it on TV every day and listen to it on radio, endlessly.

IIhad a bizarre arrival in Myanmar, some years ago, met off the plane by the head of the Burmese GMC, then taken to dinner in a place with Spurs vs someone on in the background. I have also watched matches in Malawi. The penetrance is phenomenal.