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SystemSystem Posts: 12,681
edited November 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Donald Trump’s re-tweets are going to cause Theresa May some problems

So it looks like Twitter's “In case you missed it?” served up the US President a Britain First RT, causing him to go through and retweet others. What a dark time. https://t.co/vF3cy9lbFg

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Cameron right yet again
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,116
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Cameron right yet again

    Did he call Trump a racist ?
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    Suggesting May could pull of the Corbyn strategy I don’t think would work.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Nigelb said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Cameron right yet again

    Did he call Trump a racist ?
    Many tweets make a tw@t.....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,759
    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Cameron right yet again

    Bring back Dave!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    In other non-diplomatic news:

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/935865670797021184
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,258
    May should just say she personally opposes Britain First and this is one of the instances where she and POTUS will agree to disagree
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/935867786655608833
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    I feel genuinely sorry for May on this one. Trump is a vile white supremacist who provides succour to Nazis and racists, but he is also the President of the United States. I am not sure how that circle gets squared. Maybe condemn the content of what was retweeted and say something like the American people will judge the wisdom of the president's actions - or words to that effect.

    This might actually be one of those very rare occasions when it might be a good idea to bring the monarch in to make her own and the UK's displeasure known.
  • Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,069
    Peak Tw@t

    https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/935867712303230977
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    kle4 said:

    Suggesting May could pull of the Corbyn strategy I don’t think would work.

    Different rules for PM and LotO.......
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,759
    CarlottaVance said:

    In other non-diplomatic news:

    https://twitter.com/TomMcTague/status/935865670797021184

    At least he didn't use a poor WWII analogy like Boris.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    This is Guardianista faux-outrage. Trump's tweets are an embarrassment to the US, not to the UK.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/nickeardleybbc/status/935867786655608833

    LOL! Talk about hyperbole.
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Didn't Trump have his twitter account tampered with recently?

    I loath Trump and everything he stands for but it seems a bit unlikely he would retweet an obscure far right individual from a different country?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    edited November 2017
    The US have picked it up:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-politics/wp/2017/11/29/trump-retweets-inflammatory-and-unverified-anti-muslim-videos/?utm_term=.b807990ba35c

    http://www.newsweek.com/trump-retweets-anti-muslim-messages-deputy-leader-british-far-right-party-725495

    Best reader comment in the WAPO report:

    You know you are in trouble when Piers Morgan is taking a more principled stand than you.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,759
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    This is Guardianista faux-outrage. Trump's tweets are an embarrassment to the US, not to the UK.

    Normally I’d agree but in the context of the state visit invitation it is a problem for Mrs May.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,258
    Britain First's Jayda Fransen 'thank God for Trump he is setting the way for the world'
    https://amp.ibtimes.co.uk/britain-firsts-jayda-fransen-thank-god-president-trump-hes-setting-way-world-1649456
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    If Mrs Thatcher could manage to get over Reagan's invasion of Grenada I am sure Mrs May ought to be able to deal with a tweet.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,258
    SouthamObserver said:

    I feel genuinely sorry for May on this one. Trump is a vile white supremacist who provides succour to Nazis and racists, but he is also the President of the United States. I am not sure how that circle gets squared. Maybe condemn the content of what was retweeted and say something like the American people will judge the wisdom of the president's actions - or words to that effect.

    This might actually be one of those very rare occasions when it might be a good idea to bring the monarch in to make her own and the UK's displeasure known.

    HMQ should have nothing to do with it
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Normally I’d agree but in the context of the state visit invitation it is a problem for Mrs May.

    No more so than any other of the long list of Trumpisms.

    I think we can assume the state visit is kicked well into the long grass anyway.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,100
    The invitation is to the office of POTUS. Cancelling it would be a grave diplomatic error, the USA is the world's largest economy and we've just cooled relations with effectively the second largest.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,116
    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Cameron right yet again

    Did he call Trump a racist ?
    Many tweets make a tw@t.....
    Trump was everything he is long before he discovered Twitter.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,317
    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    This is Guardianista faux-outrage. Trump's tweets are an embarrassment to the US, not to the UK.

    Normally I’d agree but in the context of the state visit invitation it is a problem for Mrs May.
    Also in the context of calls to walk away from negotiations it leaves her with no option of resurrecting the 'lead the world together' gambit if the EU decides we haven't done enough on Ireland.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    I see there was a great apple vs windows debate last thread. All seems a bit pointless for basic users - I’ve only ever had windows and have never experienced problems ((im not counting very rare crashes as problems, I can count that on one hand across multiple machines) or anything that stuck out as inconvenient, presumably as they copy the best bits from others. I guess it’s possible another OS can open word files in a revolutionary way, and I’m sure I’d be happy with an apple device, but it doesn’t seem on the level of importance of, say, coke vs Pepsi.

    I do laugh at how much tv promotion apple gets - so many supposedly run down police stations or schools absolutely thronging with top of the line apple products, someone’s office manager is bad with a budget.
  • BromBrom Posts: 3,760
    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    At least someone is. If she can recover her reputation, it will be a Herculean effort.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,759
    The_Taxman said:

    Didn't Trump have his twitter account tampered with recently?

    I loath Trump and everything he stands for but it seems a bit unlikely he would retweet an obscure far right individual from a different country?

    It was originally re-tweeted by Ann Coulter, who Trump follows.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    Nigelb said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Nigelb said:

    Scrapheap_as_was said:

    Cameron right yet again

    Did he call Trump a racist ?
    Many tweets make a tw@t.....
    Trump was everything he is long before he discovered Twitter.
    https://twitter.com/funder/status/935521119968399360
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    SouthamObserver said:

    I feel genuinely sorry for May on this one. Trump is a vile white supremacist who provides succour to Nazis and racists, but he is also the President of the United States. I am not sure how that circle gets squared. Maybe condemn the content of what was retweeted and say something like the American people will judge the wisdom of the president's actions - or words to that effect.

    This might actually be one of those very rare occasions when it might be a good idea to bring the monarch in to make her own and the UK's displeasure known.

    Didn’t Macron say we should be reaching out to the likes of Trump?

    For me it’s pretty simple: I’d rather be not have been invited, at least not so soon, but now he is he needs to do more than retweet something for it not to go ahead.
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,705
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The_Taxman said:

    Didn't Trump have his twitter account tampered with recently?

    I loath Trump and everything he stands for but it seems a bit unlikely he would retweet an obscure far right individual from a different country?

    It was originally re-tweeted by Ann Coulter, who Trump follows.
    So the story is actually Trump re-tweets a video posted by Ann Coulter?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,759
    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    Labour are trying to make it about Mrs May, not doing anything isn’t an option for her.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,317
    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,317
    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The_Taxman said:

    Didn't Trump have his twitter account tampered with recently?

    I loath Trump and everything he stands for but it seems a bit unlikely he would retweet an obscure far right individual from a different country?

    It was originally re-tweeted by Ann Coulter, who Trump follows.
    So the story is actually Trump re-tweets a video posted by Ann Coulter?
    Nope. The story is Trump retweeted a video put together by Britain First and the PM of Britain should as a result make a statment about it. As @TSE notes, doing nothing is not an option, sadly for her as it's all she bloody well needs.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,258
    kle4 said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    I feel genuinely sorry for May on this one. Trump is a vile white supremacist who provides succour to Nazis and racists, but he is also the President of the United States. I am not sure how that circle gets squared. Maybe condemn the content of what was retweeted and say something like the American people will judge the wisdom of the president's actions - or words to that effect.

    This might actually be one of those very rare occasions when it might be a good idea to bring the monarch in to make her own and the UK's displeasure known.

    Didn’t Macron say we should be reaching out to the likes of Trump?

    For me it’s pretty simple: I’d rather be not have been invited, at least not so soon, but now he is he needs to do more than retweet something for it not to go ahead.
    Trump has already been to Paris
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    She should realise that there are electoral benefits to standing up to Trump, even if the likes of Farage and Leave EU join in and start calling her ever name under the sun.
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    kle4 said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    At least someone is. If she can recover her reputation, it will be a Herculean effort.

    Considering the painful divorce, Theresa May is doing remarkably well in polls for a mid-term Government. The Conservatives are neck and neck with Labour, with the LibDems negligible.

    I know a lot of people saying to me that they are glad she is the one taking us through this turbulent time, and that includes people who voted remain. If you were to invite 100 people to shout and holler from the sidelines during a divorce settlement, you'd get a certain picture. But, let's wait and see what happens and then evaluate after we have Brexited.

    She's a sticker is Theresa and I wouldn't just yet write her off, and certainly not the Conservatives, for winning the next General Election in 2022.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,049
    edited November 2017
    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    This is an issue for four parties in the main:

    *) Trump and the Trump White House. The optics are not good.
    *) The originator of the tweet, and the people who retweeted it.
    *) Twitter.
    *) The UK government, home of the organisation that originated the tweets.

    The UK government is the least in the firing line IMO, and should make a statement about it.

    More importantly: I have not looked into the tweets. They may be hateful, but are the facts within them wrong, and if so, in what way?
  • SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 23,374
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The_Taxman said:

    Didn't Trump have his twitter account tampered with recently?

    I loath Trump and everything he stands for but it seems a bit unlikely he would retweet an obscure far right individual from a different country?

    It was originally re-tweeted by Ann Coulter, who Trump follows.
    So the story is actually Trump re-tweets a video posted by Ann Coulter?
    Nope. The story is Trump retweeted a video put together by Britain First and the PM of Britain should as a result make a statment about it. As @TSE notes, doing nothing is not an option, sadly for her as it's all she bloody well needs.
    I have not watched the videos. Does one of them depict someone being murdered? If that is the case, isn't that a tad more important than who has brought this to the attention of the masses?
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    edited November 2017
    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    Don't be absurd. She shouldn't give a Britain First tweeter any oxygen and it's nothing to do with her if the clown in the White House does.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,258
    edited November 2017
    TOPPING said:

    RobD said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    The_Taxman said:

    Didn't Trump have his twitter account tampered with recently?

    I loath Trump and everything he stands for but it seems a bit unlikely he would retweet an obscure far right individual from a different country?

    It was originally re-tweeted by Ann Coulter, who Trump follows.
    So the story is actually Trump re-tweets a video posted by Ann Coulter?
    Nope. The story is Trump retweeted a video put together by Britain First and the PM of Britain should as a result make a statment about it. As @TSE notes, doing nothing is not an option, sadly for her as it's all she bloody well needs.
    Perhaps Corbyn could condemn McDonnell for quoting Mao too, at least neither Trump nor Britain First are in the Tory Party. Or is only quoting right-wing extremists wrong, left-wing dictators and mass murderers is fine?
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,317
    JosiasJessop said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    This is an issue for four parties in the main:

    *) Trump and the Trump White House. The optics are not good.
    *) The originator of the tweet, and the people who retweeted it.
    *) Twitter.
    *) The UK government, home of the organisation that originated the tweets.

    The UK government is the least in the firing line IMO.

    More importantly: I have not looked into the tweets. They may be hateful, but are the facts within them wrong, and if so, in what way?
    ha! Me neither. But then no one else will have so we're in good company.

    That your No.4 is the least important in the global scheme of things doesn't mean it isn't a conundrum for Tezza.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,811
    Rachel said:

    kle4 said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    At least someone is. If she can recover her reputation, it will be a Herculean effort.

    Considering the painful divorce, Theresa May is doing remarkably well in polls for a mid-term Government. The Conservatives are neck and neck with Labour, with the LibDems negligible.

    I know a lot of people saying to me that they are glad she is the one taking us through this turbulent time, and that includes people who voted remain. If you were to invite 100 people to shout and holler from the sidelines during a divorce settlement, you'd get a certain picture. But, let's wait and see what happens and then evaluate after we have Brexited.

    She's a sticker is Theresa and I wouldn't just yet write her off, and certainly not the Conservatives, for winning the next General Election in 2022.
    As a remainer non-Tory I'd rather have her than any of the potential replacements, with the possible exception of Amber Rudd. But there is no way May will fight another GE.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    edited November 2017
    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    I feel genuinely sorry for May on this one. Trump is a vile white supremacist who provides succour to Nazis and racists, but he is also the President of the United States. I am not sure how that circle gets squared. Maybe condemn the content of what was retweeted and say something like the American people will judge the wisdom of the president's actions - or words to that effect.

    This might actually be one of those very rare occasions when it might be a good idea to bring the monarch in to make her own and the UK's displeasure known.

    Didn’t Macron say we should be reaching out to the likes of Trump?

    For me it’s pretty simple: I’d rather be not have been invited, at least not so soon, but now he is he needs to do more than retweet something for it not to go ahead.
    Trump has already been to Paris
    And he never said or did anything offensive before that happened? Or he did but he was received anyway? I get if the government makes a statement about this, but frankly it seems not even a shower in a teacup, let alone a storm.
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,403
    Sadly, Theresa has only herself to blame in getting dragged into Trump's tomfoolery. We'd just had the Brexit vote, Farage was sucking up to the Prez, and Theresa was under pressure to ingratiate herself by the Alt-Right and 51st-State tendencies. She should have gone with her own better judgement and kept her distance. All but the fanatics would have understood.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2017
    Jesus. Bosnian Serb war criminal commits suicide in court.
    https://order-order.com/2017/11/29/bosnian-war-criminal-takes-poison-court/
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    "I utterly abhor Britain First and I think it deeply regrettable that anyone, anywhere should give their detestable views the oxygen of publicity". Job done, with a bonus homage to the Great Leader.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    TOPPING said:


    That your No.4 is the least important in the global scheme of things doesn't mean it isn't a conundrum for Tezza.

    It's not a conundrum at all. She has no reason to comment on Trump's tweets, which everyone knows are barking mad half the time. If asked, as no doubt she will be, she'll just come up with some flim-flam about the UK condemning extremism.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,759
    Anorak said:

    Jesus. Bosnian Serb war criminal commits suicide in court.
    https://order-order.com/2017/11/29/bosnian-war-criminal-takes-poison-court/

    Puts Hermann Göring to shame.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    Stark_Dawning said:

    Sadly, Theresa has only herself to blame in getting dragged into Trump's tomfoolery. We'd just had the Brexit vote, Farage was sucking up to the Prez, and Theresa was under pressure to ingratiate herself by the Alt-Right and 51st-State tendencies. She should have gone with her own better judgement and kept her distance. All but the fanatics would have understood.

    Except as noted Trump has already been received by others like Macron. I deeply, deeply dislike Trump, but the furore over the invitation and the whinging about it since has been incredibly out of proportion. A statement may well be appropriate here, but when people start talking of the damage in associating with him, I think everyone could stand to get a grip. I know he provoked such strong reactions, but come on.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,258
    kle4 said:

    HYUFD said:

    kle4 said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    I feel genuinely sorry for May on this one. Trump is a vile white supremacist who provides succour to Nazis and racists, but he is also the President of the United States. I am not sure how that circle gets squared. Maybe condemn the content of what was retweeted and say something like the American people will judge the wisdom of the president's actions - or words to that effect.

    This might actually be one of those very rare occasions when it might be a good idea to bring the monarch in to make her own and the UK's displeasure known.

    Didn’t Macron say we should be reaching out to the likes of Trump?

    For me it’s pretty simple: I’d rather be not have been invited, at least not so soon, but now he is he needs to do more than retweet something for it not to go ahead.
    Trump has already been to Paris
    And he never said or did anything offensive before that happened? Or he did but he was received anyway? I get if the government makes a statement about this, but frankly it seems not even a shower in a teacup, let alone a storm.
    Yes, Trump is the most powerful man in the world, not leader of a minor US fringe party. Even Macron understood that.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,049
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    TOPPING said:


    That your No.4 is the least important in the global scheme of things doesn't mean it isn't a conundrum for Tezza.

    It's not a conundrum at all. She has no reason to comment on Trump's tweets, which everyone knows are barking mad half the time. If asked, as no doubt she will be, she'll just come up with some flim-flam about the UK condemning extremism.
    See Ishamel's comment below yours.

    It's quite simple, and it's something Cameron would have deflected effortlessly.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,317
    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    Don't be absurd. She shouldn't give a Britain First tweeter any oxygen and it's nothing to do with her if the clown in the White House does.
    The story is happening. It's politics.

    Had they not walked down the aisle corridor arm in arm on the back of the Brexit vote, had he not been POTUS, and had she not been PM, then yes, you are right - nothing to see here.

    As it stands, however...
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,049
    If this leak is true, then heads will soon be rolling in the Argentinian Navy:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/28/last-memo-missing-argentinian-submarine-reveals-start-battery/
  • nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Trump will eventually go. And, when he does, we will look very stupid if we are too closely alligned with him.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,317
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    TOPPING said:


    That your No.4 is the least important in the global scheme of things doesn't mean it isn't a conundrum for Tezza.

    It's not a conundrum at all. She has no reason to comment on Trump's tweets, which everyone knows are barking mad half the time. If asked, as no doubt she will be, she'll just come up with some flim-flam about the UK condemning extremism.
    Nope. She is his special buddy, didn't she tell us? He has stepped into her world (Britain First).

    And she says...nothing...

    Not an option; it will seem weak.

    She has few good moves on this but she has some neutral ones - @Ishmael_Z's suggestion is perfectly acceptable.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,258
    nielh said:

    Trump will eventually go. And, when he does, we will look very stupid if we are too closely alligned with him.

    We are currently less aligned with him than France, given he has already effectively had a state visit to Paris
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    This Paulette Wilson story.. both the Guardian and BBC reports claim she was 10 when she left Jamaica in 1968. And she's now 61, 49 years later. Someone didn't bother checking the maths
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    edited November 2017
    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    Don't be absurd. She shouldn't give a Britain First tweeter any oxygen and it's nothing to do with her if the clown in the White House does.
    The story is happening. It's politics.

    Had they not walked down the aisle corridor arm in arm on the back of the Brexit vote, had he not been POTUS, and had she not been PM, then yes, you are right - nothing to see here.

    As it stands, however...
    This has zilch to do with Theresa.

    If world leaders were required to respond to every idiotic tweet from Trump they'd never get any other work done.

    Non story. Next.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 99,391
    edited November 2017
    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    Don't be absurd. She shouldn't give a Britain First tweeter any oxygen and it's nothing to do with her if the clown in the White House does.
    The story is happening. It's politics.

    Had they not walked down the aisle corridor arm in arm on the back of the Brexit vote, had he not been POTUS, and had she not been PM, then yes, you are right - nothing to see here.

    As it stands, however...
    This clinging to that photo as a reason this is such a problem is for me proof that it is not, as that truly was a storm in a tea cup. The USA are the most powerful in the world still and all its allies have to put up with trump, including darlings of liberals and conservatives alike, as Richard n says they all when trump does something like this make noises about not sharing the view etc etc, and move on. The idea because May was a bit keen, in my view, to offer a state visit and has an unfortunate picture hand in hand with him is trifling stuff, pArticularly when he’s had effective state visits elsewhere. It makes for fun jokes, it embarrasses her, but has no genuine impact.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,759
    https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/935874566701842434

    https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/935877201517514753
  • The_TaxmanThe_Taxman Posts: 2,979
    Rachel said:

    kle4 said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    At least someone is. If she can recover her reputation, it will be a Herculean effort.

    Considering the painful divorce, Theresa May is doing remarkably well in polls for a mid-term Government. The Conservatives are neck and neck with Labour, with the LibDems negligible.

    I know a lot of people saying to me that they are glad she is the one taking us through this turbulent time, and that includes people who voted remain. If you were to invite 100 people to shout and holler from the sidelines during a divorce settlement, you'd get a certain picture. But, let's wait and see what happens and then evaluate after we have Brexited.

    She's a sticker is Theresa and I wouldn't just yet write her off, and certainly not the Conservatives, for winning the next General Election in 2022.
    You must be joking! Theresa May is the lamest of lame ducks. I would not call six months after a GE mid term either. She does not have a majority due to her and her teams misjudgement in calling an early general election. The Tories are only been artificially kept up due to Corbyn in the polls. If Blair or someone like that was leading Labour they would be 1997 proportions in the polls. As for May she is delivering a rubbish Brexit, nobody ever said we would have to pay to leave! I notice the Brexit brigade having been found out to be complete MUGs. Not only does the UK have to pay to leave but we will probably have a Corbyn government which I hope screws the Brexit supporting Tories with much higher tax.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,317
    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    Don't be absurd. She shouldn't give a Britain First tweeter any oxygen and it's nothing to do with her if the clown in the White House does.
    The story is happening. It's politics.

    Had they not walked down the aisle corridor arm in arm on the back of the Brexit vote, had he not been POTUS, and had she not been PM, then yes, you are right - nothing to see here.

    As it stands, however...
    This has zilch to do with Theresa.

    If other leaders around the world were required to respond to every idiotic tweet from Trump they'd never get any other work done.

    Non story. Next.
    You and Theresa wish. There seems to be a lack of understanding from the both of you as to how politics works.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,049
    edited November 2017
    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    Don't be absurd. She shouldn't give a Britain First tweeter any oxygen and it's nothing to do with her if the clown in the White House does.
    The story is happening. It's politics.

    Had they not walked down the aisle corridor arm in arm on the back of the Brexit vote, had he not been POTUS, and had she not been PM, then yes, you are right - nothing to see here.

    As it stands, however...
    This has zilch to do with Theresa.

    (Snip)
    The UK is involved with the story for the obvious reasons. Any PM would be asked about it for that reason, and it's therefore wise to preempt the questions rapidly and well.

    As I said below, it's something Cameron would have done well.

    Edit: it's another Tezza Test. She still has time to pass it ...
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 10,403
    kle4 said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Sadly, Theresa has only herself to blame in getting dragged into Trump's tomfoolery. We'd just had the Brexit vote, Farage was sucking up to the Prez, and Theresa was under pressure to ingratiate herself by the Alt-Right and 51st-State tendencies. She should have gone with her own better judgement and kept her distance. All but the fanatics would have understood.

    Except as noted Trump has already been received by others like Macron. I deeply, deeply dislike Trump, but the furore over the invitation and the whinging about it since has been incredibly out of proportion. A statement may well be appropriate here, but when people start talking of the damage in associating with him, I think everyone could stand to get a grip. I know he provoked such strong reactions, but come on.
    No, Theresa panicked - Farage looked to be conducting the UK's foreign policy with the US, and the Ultra-Leave brigade were everywhere, seeing Brexit as an means of imposing their miserable far-Right politics on Britain. Theresa should have stood firm, but she decided to align herself with those dark forces. A decision I suspect she bitterly regrets - every one of her subsequent problems arising from that time.
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    edited November 2017
    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    Don't be absurd. She shouldn't give a Britain First tweeter any oxygen and it's nothing to do with her if the clown in the White House does.
    The story is happening. It's politics.

    Had they not walked down the aisle corridor arm in arm on the back of the Brexit vote, had he not been POTUS, and had she not been PM, then yes, you are right - nothing to see here.

    As it stands, however...
    This has zilch to do with Theresa.

    If other leaders around the world were required to respond to every idiotic tweet from Trump they'd never get any other work done.

    Non story. Next.
    You and Theresa wish. There seems to be a lack of understanding from the both of you as to how politics works.
    Lol. Ad hominem = argument lost.

    There are plenty of serious political stories to get our teeth into at the moment. Responding to Trump's tweets or Britain First aren't amongst them.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    TOPPING said:

    You and Theresa wish. There seems to be a lack of understanding from the both of you as to how politics works.

    You are confusing faux-outrage from the Guardian-reading classes with how politics works. The British public, to their great credit, don't care a toss about Britain First, indeed hardly any of them have heard of it, they don't follow Twitter, they know perfectly well that Trump is an idiot or worse, they know perfectly well that the UK has to keep on good terms with the US administration, and they know perfectly well that one thing Theresa May can't be blamed for is the choice of president made by the US.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,397
    Rachel said:

    kle4 said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    At least someone is. If she can recover her reputation, it will be a Herculean effort.

    Considering the painful divorce, Theresa May is doing remarkably well in polls for a mid-term Government. The Conservatives are neck and neck with Labour, with the LibDems negligible.

    I know a lot of people saying to me that they are glad she is the one taking us through this turbulent time, and that includes people who voted remain. If you were to invite 100 people to shout and holler from the sidelines during a divorce settlement, you'd get a certain picture. But, let's wait and see what happens and then evaluate after we have Brexited.

    She's a sticker is Theresa and I wouldn't just yet write her off, and certainly not the Conservatives, for winning the next General Election in 2022.
    Philip, is that you?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,759
    So Don's definitely not getting a wedding invite to Harry and Meghan's wedding after this?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    kle4 said:

    Stark_Dawning said:

    Sadly, Theresa has only herself to blame in getting dragged into Trump's tomfoolery. We'd just had the Brexit vote, Farage was sucking up to the Prez, and Theresa was under pressure to ingratiate herself by the Alt-Right and 51st-State tendencies. She should have gone with her own better judgement and kept her distance. All but the fanatics would have understood.

    Except as noted Trump has already been received by others like Macron.
    In a visit arranged well before either were president.....
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    edited November 2017
    JosiasJessop said:

    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    Don't be absurd. She shouldn't give a Britain First tweeter any oxygen and it's nothing to do with her if the clown in the White House does.
    The story is happening. It's politics.

    Had they not walked down the aisle corridor arm in arm on the back of the Brexit vote, had he not been POTUS, and had she not been PM, then yes, you are right - nothing to see here.

    As it stands, however...
    This has zilch to do with Theresa.

    (Snip)
    it's something Cameron would have done well.

    As an aside, many of the same people with whom I speak have nothing but disdain, and worse, for Cameron. The more time passes, the more obvious it becomes that he took the vote for granted (thinking he could pull off another Scotland). He laid almost no foundation for this country's decision to leave the EU - to the point where, with hindsight, we didn't know for what we voted.

    As a coalition Prime Minister he did a capable management job. As a leader of this country thereafter I suspect history will judge him, not Theresa May, to be a complete disaster.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2017
    nielh said:

    Trump will eventually go. And, when he does, we will look very stupid if we are too closely alligned with him.

    If the US economy comes good, he'll get a second term.

    I wouldn't lay him serving a full 2 terms above 6/4.

    40%.

    Betfair punters are being unrealistic, imo.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,786
    Rachel said:




    Considering the painful divorce, Theresa May is doing remarkably well in polls for a mid-term Government. .

    Welcome to the site! I know it feels like mid-term but actually we had an election less than 6 months ago. Plenty of time for us all to whoop with joy/wring our hands in anguish as matters evolve in who knows what direction.

    On topic, it's obviously yucky that the POTUS chooses to retweet this fellow. But I don't personally feel that Mrs May needs to comment. An icy refusal "to express an opinion on what Mr Trump chooses to tweet" would convey disapproval in a suitably British way.
  • kyf_100kyf_100 Posts: 4,977
    Cyclefree was absolutely correct yesterday when she said the jyllands posten cartoons should have been the 'I am Spartacus' moment for liberal democracy in the west.

    Instead we chose a policy of appeasement, because of racial sensitivity, when in actual fact the radical strain of Islam that is problematic is a *political ideology* - an authoritarian, fascist, theocratic ideology that has no problem subjugating women, throwing homosexuals off roofs, or mowing holidaymakers down with trucks.

    Our failure to challenge this ideology has directly led to the situation we find ourselves innow.

    Islam is only one piece of the puzzle. Last year I read a good article on how the problem of radical Islam intersects with the SJW phenomenon and the populist 'strongman' phenomen we are seeing now.

    https://fee.org/articles/the-three-most-pressing-threats-to-liberty/

    In short: The SJW mob made it impossible to address the problem of radical islam seriously, driving people further and further into the arms of populist strongmen out of fear of radical islam. Strongmen have exploited the news cycle for their own gains.

    So no, I'm afraid Trump isn't an idiot. He knows exactly what he is doing, and he is confident in what he does because he knows *a significant percentage of people in the west actively agree with him*. Have you ever been on Gab? Or /pol/? Or read the thousands of hateful and vitriolic comments when Tesco releases a Christmas ad with muslims in it? Try it some time. That kind of thinking is mainstream now.

    Britain First has two million likes on Facebook. Videos like the ones Trump retweeted on the Britain First Facebook page are posted daily. They have titles like "American Student attacked in Muslim Patrols" and attract between 50-250k views, *daily*.

    The far right is no longer limited to a few Stormfront-style cranks.

    The west's craven failure to stand up to the morally repugnant political ideology of *radical* islam has driven a terrified population into the arms of these manipulative strongmen. The hate is there and it is real and to pretend that it is limited to just a few cranks is to stick your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand. 60,000 neo Nazis marched in Poland this month. Wake up. The problem is much, much, much bigger than Trump.

    History will not look back on us kindly. We failed to defend liberal, tolerant values. We failed to defend them from radical islam. We failed to defend them from the authoritarian mobs shutting down college campuses and tearing down statues. And ultimately we failed to defend them when authoritaran strongmen came along to a weak and frightened population and said "don't worry, follow me, I will protect you".

    In our arrogance, we declared the end of ideology and believed that liberal, free market democracy would *naturally* win, because it was the best ideology, so we didn't need to fight for it.

    Big mistake.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,397
    JonnyJimmy said:

    This Paulette Wilson story.. both the Guardian and BBC reports claim she was 10 when she left Jamaica in 1968. And she's now 61, 49 years later. Someone didn't bother checking the maths

    It's a consequence of time dilation. Because Jamaica is nearer the equator than we are, it rotates faster, and time therefore goes more slowly than in the UK. Hence, when she came to the UK her rate of ageing sped up marginally, and she's reached the aged of 61 after only 59 years (as measured from Kingston),
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    NickPalmer said:

    Rachel said:




    Considering the painful divorce, Theresa May is doing remarkably well in polls for a mid-term Government. .

    Welcome to the site! I know it feels like mid-term but actually we had an election less than 6 months ago.
    God it feels like six years already, doesn't it?

    p.s. thanks :)
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Rachel said:

    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?
    Next to nothing.
    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.

    Labour are trying to make it about Mrs May, not doing anything isn’t an option for her.
    If Mrs May does nothing, it will be a clear signal to all decent, moderate Conservatives that they ought to peel away and join the Lib Dems.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,317
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    TOPPING said:

    You and Theresa wish. There seems to be a lack of understanding from the both of you as to how politics works.

    You are confusing faux-outrage from the Guardian-reading classes with how politics works. The British public, to their great credit, don't care a toss about Britain First, indeed hardly any of them have heard of it, they don't follow Twitter, they know perfectly well that Trump is an idiot or worse, they know perfectly well that the UK has to keep on good terms with the US administration, and they know perfectly well that one thing Theresa May can't be blamed for is the choice of president made by the US.
    POTUS has stepped into TM’s world. Into our world. He is her big buddy and he is retweeting about and thereby endorsing British racists.

    But you and Rachel think that in the current political environment, where Labour is making much of the running, and using attack lines among others about generally racist Tories...that she can ignore it?

    We shall see.
  • MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 40,750
    Who cares? The guy is a fool and we just have to deal with it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    Rachel said:

    He laid almost no foundation for this country's decision to leave the EU - to the point where, with hindsight, we didn't know for what we voted.

    As a coalition Prime Minister he did a capable management job. As a leader of this country thereafter I suspect history will judge him, not Theresa May, to be a complete disaster.

    If she succeeds in walking us back from that decision, she could go down as one of the most significant PMs of all time.
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    edited November 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    Rachel said:

    kle4 said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    At least someone is. If she can recover her reputation, it will be a Herculean effort.

    Considering the painful divorce, Theresa May is doing remarkably well in polls for a mid-term Government. The Conservatives are neck and neck with Labour, with the LibDems negligible.

    I know a lot of people saying to me that they are glad she is the one taking us through this turbulent time, and that includes people who voted remain. If you were to invite 100 people to shout and holler from the sidelines during a divorce settlement, you'd get a certain picture. But, let's wait and see what happens and then evaluate after we have Brexited.

    She's a sticker is Theresa and I wouldn't just yet write her off, and certainly not the Conservatives, for winning the next General Election in 2022.
    Philip, is that you?
    Because someone suggests on political betting that the PM may be the best person to steer us through this (mess) it's inferred she must be Theresa's husband? She's polling around 40% at the moment which is pretty remarkable considering the situation by any objective measure.

    Wow how this site has sunk, Bob.
  • TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    PClipp said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Rachel said:

    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?
    Next to nothing.
    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.

    Labour are trying to make it about Mrs May, not doing anything isn’t an option for her.
    If Mrs May does nothing, it will be a clear signal to all decent, moderate Conservatives that they ought to peel away and join the Lib Dems.
    Crap.

    Literally everyone appreciates that Donald is a twat but a twat who is our ally. It won't move any votes.
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    I have to say Britain First tweets or shares have been inadvertently spread by a few naive contacts of mine only for them to be deleted when they become aware of the true nature of the originator of these messages. Trump should be given a similar chance to repudiate as it is possible he was not aware of the neo-nazi nature of BF.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,811
    edited November 2017
    kyf_100 said:

    Cyclefree was absolutely correct yesterday when she said the jyllands posten cartoons should have been the 'I am Spartacus' moment
    .

    Our failure to challenge this ideology has directly led to the situation we find ourselves innow.

    Islam is only one piece of the puzzle. Last year I read a good article on how the problem of radical Islam intersects with the SJW phenomenon and the populist 'strongman' phenomen we are seeing now.

    https://fee.org/articles/the-three-most-pressing-threats-to-liberty/

    In short: The SJW mob made it impossible to address the problem of radical islam seriously, driving people further and further into the arms of populist strongmen out of fear of radical islam. Strongmen have exploited the news cycle for their own gains.

    So no, I'm afraid Trump isn't an idiot. He knows exactly what he is doing, and he is confident in what he does because he knows *a significant percentage of people in the west actively agree with him*. Have you ever been on Gab? Or /pol/? Or read the thousands of hateful and vitriolic comments when Tesco releases a Christmas ad with muslims in it? Try it some time. That kind of thinking is mainstream now.

    Britain First has two million likes on Facebook. Videos like the ones Trump retweeted on the Britain First Facebook page are posted daily. They have titles like "American Student attacked in Muslim Patrols" and attract between 50-250k views, *daily*.

    The far right is no longer limited to a few Stormfront-style cranks.

    The west's craven failure to stand up to the morally repugnant political ideology of *radical* islam has driven a terrified population into the arms of these manipulative strongmen. The hate is there and it is real and to pretend that it is limited to just a few cranks is to stick your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand. 60,000 neo Nazis marched in Poland this month. Wake up. The problem is much, much, much bigger than Trump.

    History will not look back on us kindly. We failed to defend liberal, tolerant values. We failed to defend them from radical islam. We failed to defend them from the authoritarian mobs shutting down college campuses and tearing down statues. And ultimately we failed to defend them when authoritaran strongmen came along to a weak and frightened population and said "don't worry, follow me, I will protect you".

    In our arrogance, we declared the end of ideology and believed that liberal, free market democracy would *naturally* win, because it was the best ideology, so we didn't need to fight for it.

    Big mistake.

    I think you are mixing up two things. Even accepting your point, for the purpose of argument, there is a difference between an extremist party occasionally making a point that might have some validity behind it (even the criminal and insane aren't wrong every single time) and an important world leader endorsing and promoting a far right party.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,397
    Rachel said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Rachel said:

    kle4 said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    At least someone is. If she can recover her reputation, it will be a Herculean effort.

    Considering the painful divorce, Theresa May is doing remarkably well in polls for a mid-term Government. The Conservatives are neck and neck with Labour, with the LibDems negligible.

    I know a lot of people saying to me that they are glad she is the one taking us through this turbulent time, and that includes people who voted remain. If you were to invite 100 people to shout and holler from the sidelines during a divorce settlement, you'd get a certain picture. But, let's wait and see what happens and then evaluate after we have Brexited.

    She's a sticker is Theresa and I wouldn't just yet write her off, and certainly not the Conservatives, for winning the next General Election in 2022.
    Philip, is that you?
    Because someone suggests on political betting that the PM may be the best person to steer us through this (mess) it's inferred she must be Theresa's husband?

    Wow how this site has sunk, Bob.
    I noticed the deterioration started at 13:49 UK time today.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    TOPPING said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    TOPPING said:

    You and Theresa wish. There seems to be a lack of understanding from the both of you as to how politics works.

    You are confusing faux-outrage from the Guardian-reading classes with how politics works. The British public, to their great credit, don't care a toss about Britain First, indeed hardly any of them have heard of it, they don't follow Twitter, they know perfectly well that Trump is an idiot or worse, they know perfectly well that the UK has to keep on good terms with the US administration, and they know perfectly well that one thing Theresa May can't be blamed for is the choice of president made by the US.
    POTUS has stepped into TM’s world. Into our world. He is her big buddy and he is retweeting about and thereby endorsing British racists.

    But you and Rachel think that in the current political environment, where Labour is making much of the running, and using attack lines among others about generally racist Tories...that she can ignore it?

    We shall see.
    As the saying goes: I agree with Nick. (P).
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,317
    Rachel said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Rachel said:

    kle4 said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    At least someone is. If she can recover her reputation, it will be a Herculean effort.

    Considering the painful divorce, Theresa May is doing remarkably well in polls for a mid-term Government. The Conservatives are neck and neck with Labour, with the LibDems negligible.

    I know a lot of people saying to me that they are glad she is the one taking us through this turbulent time, and that includes people who voted remain. If you were to invite 100 people to shout and holler from the sidelines during a divorce settlement, you'd get a certain picture. But, let's wait and see what happens and then evaluate after we have Brexited.

    She's a sticker is Theresa and I wouldn't just yet write her off, and certainly not the Conservatives, for winning the next General Election in 2022.
    Philip, is that you?
    Because someone suggests on political betting that the PM may be the best person to steer us through this (mess) it's inferred she must be Theresa's husband? She's polling around 40% at the moment which is pretty remarkable considering the situation by any objective measure.

    Wow how this site has sunk, Bob.
    Nothing like making an entrance.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    PClipp said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Rachel said:

    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?
    Next to nothing.
    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.

    Labour are trying to make it about Mrs May, not doing anything isn’t an option for her.
    If Mrs May does nothing, it will be a clear signal to all decent, moderate Conservatives that they ought to peel away and join the Lib Dems.
    Crap. Literally everyone appreciates that Donald is a twat but a twat who is our ally. It won't move any votes.
    He is most certainly not my ally, Mr Rabbit.
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    williamglenn said:

    Rachel said:

    He laid almost no foundation for this country's decision to leave the EU - to the point where, with hindsight, we didn't know for what we voted.

    As a coalition Prime Minister he did a capable management job. As a leader of this country thereafter I suspect history will judge him, not Theresa May, to be a complete disaster.

    If she succeeds in walking us back from that decision, she could go down as one of the most significant PMs of all time.
    Equally if she paves the way for this country's eventual resurrection as a more independent free-trading nation she also will.

    Not to mention the idea of a PM who follows through the democratic wishes of the people.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,049
    Rachel said:

    As an aside, many of the same people with whom I speak have nothing but disdain, and worse, for Cameron. The more time passes, the more obvious it becomes that he took the vote for granted (thinking he could pull off another Scotland). He laid almost no foundation for this country's decision to leave the EU - to the point where, with hindsight, we didn't know for what we voted.

    As a coalition Prime Minister he did a capable management job. As a leader of this country thereafter I suspect history will judge him, not Theresa May, to be a complete disaster.

    Oddly, many of the people I talk to say things like: "God, can we have Cameron back?"

    I've always liked Cameron, and therefore my anecdotage may suffer from some selective hearing. ;)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,049
    'Altering the ownership structure of the railways," Conservative-style:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42157853

    "Firms which operate passenger services would also manage the tracks their trains run on, under government plans to fix "creaking" UK railways."
  • RachelRachel Posts: 11
    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Rachel said:

    kle4 said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    At least someone is. If she can recover her reputation, it will be a Herculean effort.

    Considering the painful divorce, Theresa May is doing remarkably well in polls for a mid-term Government. The Conservatives are neck and neck with Labour, with the LibDems negligible.

    I know a lot of people saying to me that they are glad she is the one taking us through this turbulent time, and that includes people who voted remain. If you were to invite 100 people to shout and holler from the sidelines during a divorce settlement, you'd get a certain picture. But, let's wait and see what happens and then evaluate after we have Brexited.

    She's a sticker is Theresa and I wouldn't just yet write her off, and certainly not the Conservatives, for winning the next General Election in 2022.
    Philip, is that you?
    Because someone suggests on political betting that the PM may be the best person to steer us through this (mess) it's inferred she must be Theresa's husband? She's polling around 40% at the moment which is pretty remarkable considering the situation by any objective measure.

    Wow how this site has sunk, Bob.
    Nothing like making an entrance.
    :D

    xx
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 87,537
    edited November 2017
    This seems a bit of a heavy topic for laptop weekly's daily blog. Shouldnt we be talking about how Microsoft office is now available on the Chromebook?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Teenager thrown from roof - over 4 years ago:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23380343
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 52,811
    JosiasJessop said:

    Rachel said:

    As an aside, many of the same people with whom I speak have nothing but disdain, and worse, for Cameron. The more time passes, the more obvious it becomes that he took the vote for granted (thinking he could pull off another Scotland). He laid almost no foundation for this country's decision to leave the EU - to the point where, with hindsight, we didn't know for what we voted.

    As a coalition Prime Minister he did a capable management job. As a leader of this country thereafter I suspect history will judge him, not Theresa May, to be a complete disaster.

    Oddly, many of the people I talk to say things like: "God, can we have Cameron back?"

    I've always liked Cameron, and therefore my anecdotage may suffer from some selective hearing. ;)
    Cameron's terms would probably be to ask for the coalition back.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,317
    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    Brom said:

    TOPPING said:

    Rachel said:

    This is scraping the barrel a bit isn't it?

    I sometimes feel Remainers are sitting in the amphitheatre drooling at any and every prospect of a scrap down below in the arena.

    Calm heads are needed and, perhaps, a little less excitable jumping up and down. I'm glad TM's at the helm for this process.

    hi Rachel and welcome.

    We are discussing Trump's tweets. (And, on the other thread, Nandos).

    Not sure I get the relevance to Remainers, etc.

    You cannot be saying that Remainers are the ones outraged by racist tweets and Leavers are fine with it. Can you?
    Nothing has really changed with the tweets though? People have long known his views on certain Islamic groups and have long known his inability to use his brain before tweeting. To somehow tie it to Theresa May is rather desperate stuff and smacks of double standards when we think of all the undesirable and less important visitors Number 10 has opened its doors to in previous years.

    We can't pick the US President any more than they can pick our Referendum result (as much as Obama tried).
    Exactly. What has this got to do with Theresa May?

    Next to nothing.

    Trump's an idiot. It's not her fault.
    It's a Brit he retweeted and she is PM*. There needs to be a statement. She is big buddies with Trump and no statement = agreeing with his views. Is the optics.

    *I know, but at least notionally.
    Don't be absurd. She shouldn't give a Britain First tweeter any oxygen and it's nothing to do with her if the clown in the White House does.
    The story is happening. It's politics.

    Had they not walked down the aisle corridor arm in arm on the back of the Brexit vote, had he not been POTUS, and had she not been PM, then yes, you are right - nothing to see here.

    As it stands, however...
    This has zilch to do with Theresa.

    If other leaders around the world were required to respond to every idiotic tweet from Trump they'd never get any other work done.

    Non story. Next.
    You and Theresa wish. There seems to be a lack of understanding from the both of you as to how politics works.
    Lol. Ad hominem = argument lost.

    There are plenty of serious political stories to get our teeth into at the moment. Responding to Trump's tweets or Britain First aren't amongst them.
    In chronological order, you say the point I’m making is absurd, then I say you lack political nous and I’m the one resorting to ad hominem.

    K
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    kyf_100 said:

    Cyclefree was absolutely correct yesterday when she said the jyllands posten cartoons should have been the 'I am Spartacus' moment for liberal democracy in the west.

    Instead we chose a policy of appeasement, because of racial sensitivity, when in actual fact the radical strain of Islam that is problematic is a *political ideology* - an authoritarian, fascist, theocratic ideology that has no problem subjugating women, throwing homosexuals off roofs, or mowing holidaymakers down with trucks.

    Our failure to challenge this ideology has directly led to the situation we find ourselves innow.

    Islam is only one piece of the puzzle. Last year I read a good article on how the problem of radical Islam intersects with the SJW phenomenon and the populist 'strongman' phenomen we are seeing now.

    https://fee.org/articles/the-three-most-pressing-threats-to-liberty/

    In short: The SJW mob made it impossible to address the problem of radical islam seriously, driving people further and further into the arms of populist strongmen out of fear of radical islam. Strongmen have exploited the news cycle for their own gains.

    So no, I'm afraid Trump isn't an idiot. He knows exactly what he is doing, and he is confident in what he does because he knows *a significant percentage of people in the west actively agree with him*. Have you ever been on Gab? Or /pol/? Or read the thousands of hateful and vitriolic comments when Tesco releases a Christmas ad with muslims in it? Try it some time. That kind of thinking is mainstream now.

    Britain First has two million likes on Facebook. Videos like the ones Trump retweeted on the Britain First Facebook page are posted daily. They have titles like "American Student attacked in Muslim Patrols" and 50-250k views, *daily*.

    The far right is no longer limited to a few Stormfront-style cranks.

    The west's craven failure to stand up to the morally repugnant political ideology of *radical* islam has driven a terrified population into the arms of these manipulative strongmen. The hate is there and it is real and to pretend that it is limited to just a few cranks is to stick your fingers in your ears and your head in the sand. 60,000 neo Nazis marched in Poland this month. Wake up. The problem is much, much, much bigger than Trump.

    History will not look back on us kindly. We failed to defend liberal, tolerant values. We failed to defend them from radical islam. We failed to defend them from the authoritarian mobs shutting down college campuses and tearing down statues. And ultimately we failed to defend them when authoritaran strongmen came along to a weak and frightened population and said "don't worry, follow me, I will protect you".

    In our arrogance, we declared the end of ideology and believed that liberal, free market democracy would *naturally* win, because it was the best ideology, so we didn't need to fight for it.

    Big mistake.

    Well said.
This discussion has been closed.

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