politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Brexit – the Guilty Men?

RobD said:

tlg86 said:

stodge said:

The Mail has laid in to the Police today but the decision to withdraw from community policing was led by Theresa May when Home Secretary. Crime is rising sharply but apparently it's the Police's fault - I suspect that wouldn't be the Mail's line if we had a Labour Government.

I find the debate about crime interesting. For years, we were told that crime was falling and that perceptions of crime were wrong. Now we're told that crime is rising and that it's due to cuts to police budgets. I could understand clean up rates falling due to a reduction in police budgets, but I'm sceptical that people only obey the law because they fear they may get caught and punished.

It would be good to hear what the police say they are unable to do that means people are more likely to commit crime. I can think of one - stop and search - but apparently that's a bad thing.

I remember seeing a report on a study showing that the best deterrence wasn't harsh sentences, it was a perception that justice is administered swiftly, fairly, and that there was little chance of getting away with it.

Not the same link, but it covers similar points:

https://nij.gov/five-things/pages/deterrence.aspx

stodge said:

Evening all

Thank you for the article, Cyclefree. There is, however, one obvious omission and that is Mikhail Gorbachev. His actions in bringing about the end of Soviet control in Eastern Europe and the collapse of the Berlin Wall leading to the re-unification of Germany in 1990 had huge consequences which arguably reverberate to this day.

Finland, Austria and Sweden, who had all remained neutral during the Cold War and who had considered EEC membership to be incompatible with that neutrality, were all free to join and the subsequent enlargements of 1999, 2004 and 2007 have led us to the current status of 28 member states.

The EEC, designed for western Europe, struggled with the accession of the poor southern European economies and the likes of Spain, Greece and Portugal, all of whom endured periods of dictatorship before joining the EEC, needed economic support to bring their countries closer to the likes of West Germany, the Low Countries and the UK.

The Single Market was designed for that smaller, more economically equal Europe, not for the EU emerging from Maastricht, Lisbon and the Cold War. Even a generation after the fall of Communism, the countries of the former Warsaw pact were so far behind those of Western Europe that the opportunity to get a taste of the wealth of the West was understandably irresistible.

The problem was the desire to lock the post-Communist Eastern European countries into the western military and economic orbit was so strong that concerns about economic disparity and concerns about the response of Russia to the push east of NATO and the West were ignored - to her credit, Mrs Thatcher opposed German re-unification and everyone thought she was harking back to the past when in fact she was seeing the future.

Had the EU remained primarily west, north and south of the Elbe there would have been problems but I doubt we'd be where we are now if the Berlin Wall was still in place. That has been a huge benefit but not without consequences.

murali_s said:

Tykejohnno said:

murali_s said:

Elliot said:

Scott_P said:

Elliot said:

It was never going to be an easy negotiation, but the government quite quickly worked out what was politically unpalatable and then pushed for the closest possible relationship short of that.

May gave a speech that said "No deal is better than a bad deal"

If she thought single market membership was "politically unpalatable", wait until the consequences of "no deal" become apparent

That made a damn lot more sense than saying "we will sign whatever you put in front of us", which seems to be the Clegg/Soubry approach.

In case you have not noticed we have no leverage. To coin a phrase we are the dockside hooker and we just have to take it.

Meanwhile the rest of the a world continues to laugh at us - an a Indian diplomat friend of mine said at dinner yesterday "Are you guys still going through with Brexit."

True Chamberlainism.

I am a pragmatist and not some kind of deluded nationalist.

JosiasJessop said:

ydoethur said:

But I suppose if anyone wants a really insane story of an organisation that has entirely lost its moral compass:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-africa-41702662

It's incredible.

Coming next: ISIS to head the UN World Tourism Organisation, Kim Jong-Un to lead the International Labor Organisation and Bashar al-Assad to head the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons.

Oh, and due to his experience in communications between nations, Putin to lead the International Telecommunication Union.

Benpointer said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

On this day in 1805:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_expects_that_every_man_will_do_his_duty

Well worth remembering. But did we commemorate last week? 14th October was a more significant date imo.

Jonathan said:

eristdoof said:

Compare two 18 year olds with grades B B C at A level. One went to Eton and one went to Jack Straw Comprehensive in the Mandela Estate in London. Which would you think is more likely to get a first after 3 years at Oxford?

The one who plays bridge with the examiner.

AnneJGP said:

RoyalBlue said:

Interesting thread. Personally speaking, I have only met people who have gone from Remain to Leave, although acquaintances have told me about people switching the other way.

While I sometimes despair about the way the Government is carrying out the negotiations, they are hamstrung by a governing and media class which largely cannot accept the result, and the parliamentary arithmetic following the General Election.

If there was a second referendum I would campaign like a man possessed for Leave. I think the campaign would run on righteous anger, and would deliver a second victory.

A second referendum is going to be about a different choice. A50 has been served, the countdown has begun. Are people expecting a vote that will put time into reverse? If we can't impose leaving terms on the EU, we certainly can't impose a "Sorry, forget we said it" vote.

edited for typo

DavidL said:

Oh and on topic of course Tony Blair is guilty. Who cares what the charge is?

murali_s said:

DavidL said:

Oh and on topic of course Tony Blair is guilty. Who cares what the charge is?

Lock him up! Lock him up!

tlg86 said:

kle4 said:

tlg86 said:

kle4 said:

tlg86 said:

stodge said:

The Mail has laid in to the Police today but the decision to withdraw from community policing was led by Theresa May when Home Secretary. Crime is rising sharply but apparently it's the Police's fault - I suspect that wouldn't be the Mail's line if we had a Labour Government.

I find the debate about crime interesting. For years, we were told that crime was falling and that perceptions of crime were wrong. Now we're told that crime is rising and that it's due to cuts to police budgets.

Or that the rise is a good thing as it is about better recording, more people coming forward, et al.

The Left are adamant that it's because of the cuts...

It might well be for all I know - I just know the police defend rise in crime with that reasoning, although presumably even if that is true there is a point where it stops being helpful and actual crime is indeed rising, not just recordings of crime.

Funnily enough, my final post at the ONS was in the directorate which included crime stats. They had to lay down the law to the police about the importance of recording crime correctly and it was clear that in some cases that had not always been the case. As @DavidL says, it is difficult to have confidence in crime stats.

tlg86 said:

The Left are adamant that it's because of the cuts...

stodge said:

tlg86 said:

The Left are adamant that it's because of the cuts...

I don't think anyone is saying that though I might ask whether the £3,350,000 raised by the sale of East Ham Police Station in 2014 has been spent wisely given the loss of a local resource to take prisoners and additional time spent by officers having to take prisoners to Forest Gate.

The big change has been the end of community policing (thanks Theresa) in favour of police in cars and vans maintaining a mobile but not very visible presence.

If Conservatives really care about law and order instead of using it as a stick with which to beat other parties, perhaps they'd like to defend the former Home Secretary's record.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Benpointer said:

Sunil_Prasannan said:

On this day in 1805:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_expects_that_every_man_will_do_his_duty

Well worth remembering. But did we commemorate last week? 14th October was a more significant date imo.

Yes I posted "951 years ago today" last week

Charles said:

Jonathan said:

eristdoof said:

Compare two 18 year olds with grades B B C at A level. One went to Eton and one went to Jack Straw Comprehensive in the Mandela Estate in London. Which would you think is more likely to get a first after 3 years at Oxford?

The one who plays bridge with the examiner.

My grandfather was kicked out of the House for taking £1,000 off his Dean at the bridge table

brendan16 said:

ydoethur said:

I have just seen a truly insane sight.

One of my neighbours is letting off fireworks. To make the effect more spectacular, he is holding them in the air with his left hand while lighting them with his right and letting them go as they fire.

If they explode do I send for an ambulance or just nominate him for a Darwin Award?

Is your neighbour celebrating Diwali or does he just like ruining your peace and quiet two weeks before Bonfire night?!!

I know we knock the Americans for their second amendment but I do find it slightly odd that we allow any Brit over 16 to quite happily buy explosive material for three weeks a year which they can then let off in their back garden at all hours or even in the street.

I am more of a lets have a nice organised and safe public display which is finished at s reasonable hour. As a Catholic I have always had qualms about 5 November anyway - and collecting money to set light to a Catholic who was seeking the right to freedom of religion is a bit off.

PS hope your neighbour - and surrounding structures - survives the night intact!

brendan16 said:

ydoethur said:

I have just seen a truly insane sight.

One of my neighbours is letting off fireworks. To make the effect more spectacular, he is holding them in the air with his left hand while lighting them with his right and letting them go as they fire.

If they explode do I send for an ambulance or just nominate him for a Darwin Award?

Is your neighbour celebrating Diwali or does he just like ruining your peace and quiet two weeks before Bonfire night?!!

Cyclefree said:

rcs1000 said:

Elliot said:

Cyclefree said:

Elliot said:

I think it's a bit dishonest to act like euroscepticism is either pro-membership or completely hardcore Moggism. I think the bulk of us middle of the road eurosceptics found the Brexit vote to be a genuinely hard decision, but ultimately plumped for Leave.

Some middle of the road eurosceptics will have voted leave and some remain. I know a few who voted remain even though they disliked the EU, some quite intensely, because they felt the Leave prospectus was too uncertain / dislikeable or away with the fairies.

I agree to some extent with what you (and @Richard_Tyndall) say about reform from within. But Britain got quite a lot out of the EU and some better negotiation - itself a huge topic - would still have given an option other than full withdrawal.

It was, though, a genuinely hard decision for me.

What I will say is that I have despaired of how the outcome has been handled. A complete and embarrassing shambles.

This last bit is the thing that I don't recognise and it really mystifies me so many people I usually agree with hold it. It was never going to be an easy negotiation, but the government quite quickly worked out what was politically unpalatable and then pushed for the closest possible relationship short of that. We have accepted we will need a transitional period to have time for the final deal to be done, and managed to spin it as a concession. We have recognised we are going to have to pay fees for a few years more but have done it slowly in exchange for them budging on sillier points.

I don't think it's some sort of masterclass in statesmanship but it is reasonable muddling through of a difficult topic, made triply harder from most of the political/media class refusing to accept the result and trying to undermine it from the get go.

The best negotiating tactic is to talk softly but carry a big stick. I.e., to have viable alternatives but appear very amenable, making it clear that while you want a deal, you can walk away.

Our policy - until the Florence speech - was to yell blue murder, while stark naked.

The problem is that most people who want us to carry a big stick, also want us to ramp up the aggression. While those people who want a deal seem also to think that nakedness works in our favour.

Britain’s approach to the negotiations and, indeed, to the EU itself might be summed up by this quote:-

“You never get it right, do you? You're either crawling all over them, licking their boots, or spitting poison at them like some benzedrine puff adder.”

MJW said:

kle4 said:

Benpointer said:

Great thread header Cyclefree, very thought-provoking, thanks!



History will judge Cameron as a failure imo.

He didn't make the mess, he just failed to clean it up. Add to the list, perhaps, but its a little OTT to suggest he made the mess just by offering a vote - the public still made that choice, and that they took it suggests the feeling behind it was there, and there would have been serious problems had there not been a vote at some point.

Your third bullet is an interesting one, because a lot of people blame him for not doing a good enough job of defending IN, not that they disagree he should have defended IN (which seems to be more of a Brexiter view, particularly at the time people thought Leave would lose).

And as for buggering off, his party would have kicked him out, I do not believe for a second they would have permitted him to remain, no pun intended. Loads of talk before the vote insisted he wouldn't have to resign, but it was one of those political lies everyone knew what would really happen.

Cameron's sins came earlier. Firstly, although he took his party on its social liberalism, he pandered to its Eurosceptics, and of course every time he showed weakness they came back for another pound of flesh. Eventually, when he called the referendum he struggled to make the case for Remain because for the past decade and by calling the referendum (and saying he'd consider backing leave) he'd legitimised the lunatic views of Redwood et al by trying to look like he was flirting with them even though he and Osborne quietly believed them to be ruinous. It's a very difficult case to make at the last minute when all voters have read or seen politicians do since the days of Blair is blame the EU like it's the weather, rather than taking a lead on reforming (as ironically, it would now be much easier for Britain to do with Macron and Merkel both desirous to do so), and consistently making the case as to why membership, and for that matter FoM was a net positive, even if acting on people's desire to see the government act to protect them from negatives.

tlg86 said:

geoffw said:

@tlg86 You must know of the Josiah Stamp quotation:
"The government are very keen on amassing statistics. They collect them, add them, raise them to the nth power, take the cube root and prepare wonderful diagrams. But you must never forget that every one of these figures comes in the first instance from the chowky dar (village watchman in India), who just puts down what he damn pleases."

Not heard that quote before, but there's a lot of truth in it. Thankfully, the field staff employed by the ONS for their surveys are very dedicated. I met one guy from the North West who said that after doing a survey at a house in Liverpool, he came back to his car to find a bullet hole in one of the windows.

Cyclefree said:

rcs1000 said:

Elliot said:

Cyclefree said:

Elliot said:

I think it's a bit dishonest to act like euroscepticism is either pro-membership or completely hardcore Moggism. I think the bulk of us middle of the road eurosceptics found the Brexit vote to be a genuinely hard decision, but ultimately plumped for Leave.

Some middle of the road eurosceptics will have voted leave and some remain. I know a few who voted remain even though they disliked the EU, some quite intensely, because they felt the Leave prospectus was too uncertain / dislikeable or away with the fairies.

I agree to some extent with what you (and @Richard_Tyndall) say about reform from within. But Britain got quite a lot out of the EU and some better negotiation - itself a huge topic - would still have given an option other than full withdrawal.

It was, though, a genuinely hard decision for me.

What I will say is that I have despaired of how the outcome has been handled. A complete and embarrassing shambles.

This last bit is the thing that I don't recognise and it really mystifies me so many people I usually agree with hold it. It was never going to be an easy negotiation, but the government quite quickly worked out what was politically unpalatable and then pushed for the closest possible relationship short of that. We have accepted we will need a transitional period to have time for the final deal to be done, and managed to spin it as a concession. We have recognised we are going to have to pay fees for a few years more but have done it slowly in exchange for them budging on sillier points.

I don't think it's some sort of masterclass in statesmanship but it is reasonable muddling through of a difficult topic, made triply harder from most of the political/media class refusing to accept the result and trying to undermine it from the get go.

The best negotiating tactic is to talk softly but carry a big stick. I.e., to have viable alternatives but appear very amenable, making it clear that while you want a deal, you can walk away.

Our policy - until the Florence speech - was to yell blue murder, while stark naked.

The problem is that most people who want us to carry a big stick, also want us to ramp up the aggression. While those people who want a deal seem also to think that nakedness works in our favour.

Britain’s approach to the negotiations and, indeed, to the EU itself might be summed up by this quote:-

“You never get it right, do you? You're either crawling all over them, licking their boots, or spitting poison at them like some benzedrine puff adder.”

Ishmael_Z said:

Charles said:

Jonathan said:

eristdoof said:

Compare two 18 year olds with grades B B C at A level. One went to Eton and one went to Jack Straw Comprehensive in the Mandela Estate in London. Which would you think is more likely to get a first after 3 years at Oxford?

The one who plays bridge with the examiner.

My grandfather was kicked out of the House for taking £1,000 off his Dean at the bridge table

Really? That's 60,000 in today's money if we date this to c. 1930; all the possible deans (Strong, White, Williams) were senior clergy in the C of E (goes with the job) at a time when overt gambling by a clergyman would be career ending.

Alistair said:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/21/collapsing-wakefield-city-academies-trust-asset-stripped-schools-millions-say-furious-parents

This sounds like it is going to be huge, a massive scandal for the whole Academies system.

stodge said:

Once again we see the term "Second Referendum" banded about in fairly pejorative terms and anyone calling for such a referendum dismissed.

I do agree that those seeking a re-run of the 23/6/16 vote are wasting their time and effort but that's not what that term really means.

Alistair said:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/21/collapsing-wakefield-city-academies-trust-asset-stripped-schools-millions-say-furious-parents

This sounds like it is going to be huge, a massive scandal for the whole Academies system.

Philip_Thompson said:

stodge said:

Once again we see the term "Second Referendum" banded about in fairly pejorative terms and anyone calling for such a referendum dismissed.

I do agree that those seeking a re-run of the 23/6/16 vote are wasting their time and effort but that's not what that term really means. Others are calling for a referendum on the A50 Treaty - there is provision for a vote in Parliament but the key remains that no one really knows what rejecting the A50 treaty in Parliament will mean.

Some think that will mean we crash out of the EU without agreement while others are now arguing a rejection will stop the clock on A50 pending renewed negotiation. I'm not sure about the former and I'm less sure about the latter - the A50 process lasts two years and I didn't think there was provision for it to be extended but I suppose it could by mutual agreement.

If there is no Treaty, would Parliament vote on leaving without an agreement ? If they reject the position of no agreement, how will an agreement be reached ?

Still more questions than answers...

Actually article 50 is clear on the latter. In order to extend the process we need the unanimous agreement of all 28 member states. Otherwise we are out without a deal

Yorkcity said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/21/theresa-may-plots-climbdown-universal-credit-amid-fears-could/ Telegraph saying May to climb down over Universal Credit.

Sunil_Prasannan said:

Yorkcity said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/21/theresa-may-plots-climbdown-universal-credit-amid-fears-could/ Telegraph saying May to climb down over Universal Credit.

Universal Crud-it

Yorkcity said:

kle4 said:

Yorkcity said:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/10/21/theresa-may-plots-climbdown-universal-credit-amid-fears-could/ Telegraph saying May to climb down over Universal Credit.

Quelle surprise. I wonder how many backbenchers have been hollering about it to the minister. Quite a few I imagine.

Yes I would have thought so.Surely they will now take on board the failings in the system , exposed by the rollout pilots .

Toms said:

Charles said:

Toms said:

Charles said:

Jonathan said:

eristdoof said:

Compare two 18 year olds with grades B B C at A level. One went to Eton and one went to Jack Straw Comprehensive in the Mandela Estate in London. Which would you think is more likely to get a first after 3 years at Oxford?

The one who plays bridge with the examiner.

My grandfather was kicked out of the House for taking £1,000 off his Dean at the bridge table

I knew someone who paid his large expenses at a California Institute for a couple of years by playing poker, but, lacking adequate time for study, ultimately failed. Actually I have little doubt that, should he not have been addicted to cards, his considerable intelligence will have guaranteed ultimate success.

In his case, he used his gambling winnings to buy a partnership in the family shop from a cousin and then set about restoring it to its former glory

The words "shop" and Dean reminded me for some reason of Somerset Maugham's short story "The Verger".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xTNsIFmBpM8

Ally_B said:

I have some experience to share in regards to UC. A friend of mine was on DLA after an accident that cost him his job and his health. He was recently reassessed as being OK to work and moved onto JSA. The problem here is that he has now to wait up to six weeks for those payments to start to be made. There is no way that anyone on the sort of income you get from DLA can survive anywhere near a month without any money coming in.

HYUFD said:

hobnob said:

kyf_100 said:

HYUFD said:

kyf_100 said:

Pong said:

williamglenn said:

Survation are also having to weight their online panel towards the 55+ age group to make up the numbers. If the people they are sampling and more Brexity than the general population, this will distort the numbers towards Leave. Remain's underlying position could be underestimated in these polls.

Wishful thinking.

Nothing's changed. *Exasperated look.* Nothing's changed.

Let's take PB as a microcosm.

I don't think there's a single person who has changed their mind on Brexit in over a year of arguing about it.

A few leavers are pessimistic about the current government's *ability* to carry out Brexit but that doesn't mean they think it's inherently bad thing or would change their mind in a second referendum, although a small number might. Points to a posible 52/48 outcome for remain in a second referendum, which would be disastrous for democracy and split the country even further down the middle.

Quite a few remainers are of the opinion "I don't like this, I disagree with it all, but the vote must be respected, we must get on with the job and get out with a minimum amount of harm." A few more are of the opinion "The boil must be lanced before Britain can be cured of its Euroscepticism". Points to an increased majority for leave.

Of course PB is not a representative sample of the population at large (who may be very resentful at being asked to vote again and may vote in a "stuff the lot of you" fashion), but I find it _very_ telling how nobody on here has changed their mind since last year.

I voted Remain but would now vote Leave, there is no point going back into the EU now given we are clearly headed in a different direction and clearly distinct from the majority of EU members in the Eurozone, I would be happy for us to rejoin EFTA and maybe even the EEA in time but not the full EU.

I stand corrected - at least one person has changed their mind in the last year then!

But you raise a very good point - how many people voted remain but have either, as you say, come to the realisation that in 2017.

Here is a full list of all the PB posters who believe that HYUFD voted Remain:

kyf_100

Ask Richard Tyndall, he will confirm I was a Remainer before the referendum as I had a number of arguments with him over Brexit beforehand.

Richard_Tyndall said:

HYUFD said:

hobnob said:

kyf_100 said:

HYUFD said:

kyf_100 said:

Pong said:

williamglenn said:

Survation are also having to weight their online panel towards the 55+ age group to make up the numbers. If the people they are sampling and more Brexity than the general population, this will distort the numbers towards Leave. Remain's underlying position could be underestimated in these polls.

Wishful thinking.

Nothing's changed. *Exasperated look.* Nothing's changed.

Let's take PB as a microcosm.

I don't think there's a single person who has changed their mind on Brexit in over a year of arguing about it.

A few leavers are pessimistic about the current government's *ability* to carry out Brexit but that doesn't mean they think it's inherently bad thing or would change their mind in a second referendum, although a small number might. Points to a posible 52/48 outcome for remain in a second referendum, which would be disastrous for democracy and split the country even further down the middle.

Quite a few remainers are of the opinion "I don't like this, I disagree with it all, but the vote must be respected, we must get on with the job and get out with a minimum amount of harm." A few more are of the opinion "The boil must be lanced before Britain can be cured of its Euroscepticism". Points to an increased majority for leave.

Of course PB is not a representative sample of the population at large (who may be very resentful at being asked to vote again and may vote in a "stuff the lot of you" fashion), but I find it _very_ telling how nobody on here has changed their mind since last year.

I voted Remain but would now vote Leave, there is no point going back into the EU now given we are clearly headed in a different direction and clearly distinct from the majority of EU members in the Eurozone, I would be happy for us to rejoin EFTA and maybe even the EEA in time but not the full EU.

I stand corrected - at least one person has changed their mind in the last year then!

But you raise a very good point - how many people voted remain but have either, as you say, come to the realisation that in 2017.

Here is a full list of all the PB posters who believe that HYUFD voted Remain:

kyf_100

Ask Richard Tyndall, he will confirm I was a Remainer before the referendum as I had a number of arguments with him over Brexit beforehand.

Yep very true.

Sorry for the delay with the confirmation. Been at the most fantastic Public Service Broadcasting gig tonight

HYUFD said:

EPG said:

It's just immigration, really, isn't it? I think the UK was always going to backlash against non-English-speaking foreigners in its midst, so the lack of a transitional period didn't matter. So much of British culture is anti-European and pro-non-European, English-speaking countries like America and, I guess, Britain. As for the actual EU issue as opposed to immigration, I don't believe the sceptics were ill-tempered at all during the 1992 period or up until Cameron was in office, and I believe the debate's become a lot less rancourous as the UK has united around the consensus that the negotiators are rubbish (even if they're just doing the best job they can). Nor did people like Johns Redwood or Major contribute personally to the slanging matches, nor Jacques Delors.

Thus I blame the people who whipped up anti-foreigner sentiment in the 2010s because that to me is what evidently made the referendum and its aftermath nasty. That means Nigel Farage and Theresa May, above all. It is not clear to me who among Remain is to blame for reciprocating, but I suppose Gordon Brown's "bigoted" comment did not help at all, though given that it was not public it's hard to blame him in the same way, more a mistake than a tactic.

Blair failing to impose transition controls on the new accession countries in 2004 was also pivotal.

kyf_100 said:

Let's take PB as a microcosm.

(snip)

Of course PB is not a representative sample of the population at large (who may be very resentful at being asked to vote again and may vote in a "stuff the lot of you" fashion), but I find it _very_ telling how nobody on here has changed their mind since last year.

EPG said:

It's just immigration, really, isn't it? I think the UK was always going to backlash against non-English-speaking foreigners in its midst, so the lack of a transitional period didn't matter. So much of British culture is anti-European and pro-non-European, English-speaking countries like America and, I guess, Britain. As for the actual EU issue as opposed to immigration, I don't believe the sceptics were ill-tempered at all during the 1992 period or up until Cameron was in office, and I believe the debate's become a lot less rancourous as the UK has united around the consensus that the negotiators are rubbish (even if they're just doing the best job they can). Nor did people like Johns Redwood or Major contribute personally to the slanging matches, nor Jacques Delors.

Thus I blame the people who whipped up anti-foreigner sentiment in the 2010s because that to me is what evidently made the referendum and its aftermath nasty. That means Nigel Farage and Theresa May, above all. It is not clear to me who among Remain is to blame for reciprocating, but I suppose Gordon Brown's "bigoted" comment did not help at all, though given that it was not public it's hard to blame him in the same way, more a mistake than a tactic.