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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Quantum physics could have the answer to Brexit’s Ireland prob

SystemSystem Posts: 8,489
edited October 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Quantum physics could have the answer to Brexit’s Ireland problem

Brexit will happen. As Alastair Meeks sensibly pointed out here yesterday, there’s a good, clear case that Article 50 is not revocable. Britain could ask for an extension to the talks but the PM has been clear that she doesn’t intend to do so and in any case, a delay is not a reversal of course. In practice, the transitional arrangement might look very much like continued membership but even that will have an expiry date, presumably one that’ll be written into the Exit Agreement.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • RobDRobD Posts: 49,740
    First, and thanks David!
  • RobDRobD Posts: 49,740
    Three firsts in a row... I'm unstoppable :o
  • RobDRobD Posts: 49,740
    RobD said:

    Three firsts in a row... I'm unstoppable :o

    or I need to get out more :smiley:
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    Nigelb said:

    An "interesting" idea from Corbyn...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820

    Well I suppose it's way of ensuring that no "robots" are developed and no companies like Uber or Deliveroo are ever created in the first place.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,355
    So Brexit is the gun and we're the cat.
  • GadflyGadfly Posts: 976
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Three firsts in a row... I'm unstoppable :o

    or I need to get out more :smiley:
    Maybe, but where on earth does one go at 4.42AM?
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    Alternatively, put the hard border around little england and locate the federal government of the United Kingdom in Belfast.
  • IcarusIcarus Posts: 576
    As Schroedinger was an Irish citizen - that would work.

    However better to be brave and stay in the EU!
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770
    I don't think Brexit and the 26-6 partition of Ireland can simultaneously exist. One of them is going to have to give.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,231
    alex. said:

    Nigelb said:

    An "interesting" idea from Corbyn...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820

    Well I suppose it's way of ensuring that no "robots" are developed and no companies like Uber or Deliveroo are ever created in the first place.
    Once the new technologies mean we need less lawyers , teachers, doctors, there will be more thought put into the conditions of work .The same with cashless societies.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think Brexit and the 26-6 partition of Ireland can simultaneously exist. One of them is going to have to give.

    The solution is obvious.

    Reunite the Kingdom, sans Little England.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    edited October 2017
    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think Brexit and the 26-6 partition of Ireland can simultaneously exist. One of them is going to have to give.

    The obvious interim solution is to move the controlled border (for people and goods) between the EU and the UK to the Irish Sea, as a prelude to Irish re-unification. In the EU referendum, there was a 56-44 majority in favour of remaining in the EU in the 6 counties.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 43,213
    daodao said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think Brexit and the 26-6 partition of Ireland can simultaneously exist. One of them is going to have to give.

    The obvious interim solution is to move the controlled border (for people and goods) between the EU and the UK to the Irish Sea, as a prelude to Irish re-unification. In the EU referendum, there was a 56-44 majority in favour of remaining in the EU in the 6 counties.
    The United Kingdom (UK) remains the most significant market for businesses in Northern Ireland – sales to Great Britain were worth one and a half times the value of all Northern Ireland exports and nearly four times the value of exports to Ireland in 2015

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/638215/Additional_Data_Paper_-_Northern_Ireland_Trade_Data_and_Statistics__2_.pdf
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    An interestingidea, Mr Hardson. "Quantum mechanics contains such a concept; it’s how Schroedinger’s Cat is both alive and dead at the same time. The trick, in that case, is not to inquire as to the health of the cat. With Ireland, the best option is to not ask about the border."

    Perhaps we could do the same thing with the whole EU question. Be in it and out of it at the same time. Just not ask questions about it.

    Of course it would drive the lawyers mad - a small price to pay - but it would help get your incompetent government off the hook of its own creation.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,218
    Anthony Eden was divorced in 1950 and married his second wife, Clarissa in 1952. Number 2 is still alive aged 97 and is a niece of Winston Churchill.
  • daodaodaodao Posts: 821

    daodao said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think Brexit and the 26-6 partition of Ireland can simultaneously exist. One of them is going to have to give.

    The obvious interim solution is to move the controlled border (for people and goods) between the EU and the UK to the Irish Sea, as a prelude to Irish re-unification. In the EU referendum, there was a 56-44 majority in favour of remaining in the EU in the 6 counties.
    The United Kingdom (UK) remains the most significant market for businesses in Northern Ireland – sales to Great Britain were worth one and a half times the value of all Northern Ireland exports and nearly four times the value of exports to Ireland in 2015

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/638215/Additional_Data_Paper_-_Northern_Ireland_Trade_Data_and_Statistics__2_.pdf
    Actually, the best place for the future border between rUK and the EU is along the Cheviots (plus the Irish Sea).
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,355
    What might have been better, easier and cheaper would have been to introduce a full border around Nigel Farage and Boris.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017
    off topic;

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/news/amount-retirees-can-safely-withdraw-year-invested-pension-drops/

    Isn't this a big part of what is wrong with the British/Western economies?

    Wealthy older people refusing to spend their capital/downsize in retirement, trying to protect it until their death to pass on to their own kids.

    It's a fundamentally unreasonable proposition.

    We've become a nation of minor aristocrats and it's killing the economy.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 3,943
    Pong said:

    off topic;

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/news/amount-retirees-can-safely-withdraw-year-invested-pension-drops/

    Isn't this a big part of what is wrong with the British/Western economies?

    Wealthy older people refusing to spend their capital/downsize in retirement, trying to protect it until their death to pass on to their own kids.

    It's a fundamentally unreasonable proposition.

    We've become a nation of minor aristocrats and it's killing the economy.

    The IHT threhshold should be about £50k (albeit at a lower rate)
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,298
    Good morning, everyone.

    Interesting article, Mr. Herdson, and one with which there is much to agree.

    F1: in case the musical seats at Toro Rosso weren't moving fast enough, Hartley will be occupying Gasly's seat for the race in the US:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41614891

    It's possible he could stay on for the three following races, probably alongside Gasly (he will be Kvyat's team mate in the US).
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 34,787
    edited October 2017
    The issue is that the UK becomes a third country when it leaves the EU. WTO rules forbid dicriminatory treatment in the absence of a formal trade agreement between countries. The UK only has borders with the EU. The EU has borders with a number of third countries. A de facto soft border between the EU and UK discriminates against other third countries with which the EU has a border - Russia and Ukraine, for example. The EU just cannot do it. There has to be an agreement that is then properly policed. Anything else invites WTO action against the EU.

    I don't know much about the Sweden/Norway border, but has it ever been open in the way that the Irish border is now? If not, the trade flows between Norway and Sweden are unlikely to mirror those between NI and Ireland. What's more, I suspect the Norway/Sweden border is the subject of a formal, policed agreement.

    All of the above is why the Irish border is an EU red line. It has no choice. Unless the problem is resolved there will be No Deal.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 20,341

    Pong said:

    off topic;

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/investing/news/amount-retirees-can-safely-withdraw-year-invested-pension-drops/

    Isn't this a big part of what is wrong with the British/Western economies?

    Wealthy older people refusing to spend their capital/downsize in retirement, trying to protect it until their death to pass on to their own kids.

    It's a fundamentally unreasonable proposition.

    We've become a nation of minor aristocrats and it's killing the economy.

    The IHT threhshold should be about £50k (albeit at a lower rate)
    I’m suitting on my capital.... there’s not all that much of it except the house ...... in case one or both of us need care!
  • Corbyn really doesn't have a clue what this "rise of the robots" is

    Jeremy Corbyn: Let workers control robots
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 15,355
    This border issue illustrates nicely the problems with Brexit.

    It has created an entirely wasteful and pointless debate on an issue that had been settled and distracts us from more pressing and serious concerns. You name it virtually anything is more important than reopening this can of worms. The economy, social care, dealing with Trump for starters.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 10,806

    Corbyn really doesn't have a clue what this "rise of the robots" is

    Jeremy Corbyn: Let workers control robots
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820

    Wait til he finds out about 3D printing.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,029
    Jonathan said:

    This border issue illustrates nicely the problems with Brexit.

    It has created an entirely wasteful and pointless debate on an issue that had been settled and distracts us from more pressing and serious concerns. You name it virtually anything is more important than reopening this can of worms. The economy, social care, dealing with Trump for starters.

    I'm looking for a phrase to describe the malady.
    Something like "terminal provincialism".
    No doubt, on reflection, a better descriptor will occur to me.
  • Jonathan said:

    This border issue illustrates nicely the problems with Brexit.

    It has created an entirely wasteful and pointless debate on an issue that had been settled and distracts us from more pressing and serious concerns. You name it virtually anything is more important than reopening this can of worms. The economy, social care, dealing with Trump for starters.

    Yep - a huge waste of time and resource for a marginal tangible gain some time in the next 30 years at the very best.

    Remember how we were told it was not an issue prior to the referendum?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Corbyn really doesn't have a clue what this "rise of the robots" is

    Jeremy Corbyn: Let workers control robots
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820

    At least he is thinking about it. It's good to know one of the parties isn't obsessed with Brexit to the exclusion of more important things.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    Jonathan said:

    This border issue illustrates nicely the problems with Brexit.

    It has created an entirely wasteful and pointless debate on an issue that had been settled and distracts us from more pressing and serious concerns. You name it virtually anything is more important than reopening this can of worms. The economy, social care, dealing with Trump for starters.

    You're right, its not important.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,436
    Icarus said:

    As Schroedinger was an Irish citizen - that would work.

    However better to be brave and stay in the EU!

    Staying in the EU would be the ultimate act of running away. It would only be "brave" in a Brave Sir Robin kind of way....

    And it would give the current politicians in the UK hell to pay. And hand many of them their P45. In June, 80%+ voted for parties who were pledged to getting us out the EU. "We gave you one job to do....Just one."
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,298
    Mr. Toms, terminal metropolitanism?

    It's the divide that's the problem. Blaming one side or another misses the point.

    Mr. Observer, we also had politicians playing down the impact the EU has on us. Now it seems to affect everything. If Remain had won, the media and politicians might be happier but we wouldn't be a land of sweetness and light, it's just that those who report the news wouldn't be so eager to point out the divide.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 8,784
    Schroedinger's cat is only both dead and alive until it is observed.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,436
    Looks like krill fishing in Artarctica is going to be the next big eco-topic: save the penguins!

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-41608722
  • Icarus said:

    As Schroedinger was an Irish citizen - that would work.

    However better to be brave and stay in the EU!

    Staying in the EU would be the ultimate act of running away. It would only be "brave" in a Brave Sir Robin kind of way....

    And it would give the current politicians in the UK hell to pay. And hand many of them their P45. In June, 80%+ voted for parties who were pledged to getting us out the EU. "We gave you one job to do....Just one."

    Well over 50% of voters also backed parties that favour immediate confirmation that the rights of EU resident in the UK should be immediately and unconditionally confirmed. We're not doing that.

  • Mr. Toms, terminal metropolitanism?

    It's the divide that's the problem. Blaming one side or another misses the point.

    Mr. Observer, we also had politicians playing down the impact the EU has on us. Now it seems to affect everything. If Remain had won, the media and politicians might be happier but we wouldn't be a land of sweetness and light, it's just that those who report the news wouldn't be so eager to point out the divide.

    Yep, the Mail, the Sun, the Express and the Telegraph would have stayed silent!!

  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Icarus said:

    As Schroedinger was an Irish citizen - that would work.

    However better to be brave and stay in the EU!

    Staying in the EU would be the ultimate act of running away. It would only be "brave" in a Brave Sir Robin kind of way....

    And it would give the current politicians in the UK hell to pay. And hand many of them their P45. In June, 80%+ voted for parties who were pledged to getting us out the EU. "We gave you one job to do....Just one."

    Well over 50% of voters also backed parties that favour immediate confirmation that the rights of EU resident in the UK should be immediately and unconditionally confirmed. We're not doing that.

    Out of interest which parties didn't support that?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 26,860
    alex. said:

    Nigelb said:

    An "interesting" idea from Corbyn...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820

    Well I suppose it's way of ensuring that no "robots" are developed and no companies like Uber or Deliveroo are ever created in the first place.
    No, it's a way of ensuring any such activity will happen outside of the UK. With presumably miraculous results for our economy....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 86,761
    edited October 2017
    Oooh, a physics based thread.

    Physics gives me a hadron.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,298
    Mr. Observer, I was thinking more of broadcast media, but you're right the print media (mostly) would've been grumpy.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,436

    Mr. Toms, terminal metropolitanism?

    It's the divide that's the problem. Blaming one side or another misses the point.

    Mr. Observer, we also had politicians playing down the impact the EU has on us. Now it seems to affect everything. If Remain had won, the media and politicians might be happier but we wouldn't be a land of sweetness and light, it's just that those who report the news wouldn't be so eager to point out the divide.

    There's a case to be made for saying that voting for Brexit has saved us from the rise of the Far Right in this country...unlike much of the EU. Without the Brexit vote safety valve, EU immigration to the UK would not be falling from its previous highs (certainly not at the rate we have seen), we would be under intense pressure to "do our bit" and take in our "fair share" of Merkel's Refugees - and France and Germany would still be angling to hobble the City and reduce still further our ability to slow the progress towards the Super-state.

    So Yay! for Brexit....
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,029
    edited October 2017
    Actually,

    Schroedinger's cat is only both neither dead and or alive until it is observed.

    according to current standard quantum mechanics, which nobody *understands* anyway.
  • As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,298
    Mr. Mark, possibly. Still a credible route for the far right to rise, alas.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770

    "We gave you one job to do....Just one."

    They don't have just one job though, they have many other jobs relating to the effective government of the country which are being sadly neglected while they flay themselves over the niche fetish of right wing nutters and socially conservative buffoons.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,436

    Icarus said:

    As Schroedinger was an Irish citizen - that would work.

    However better to be brave and stay in the EU!

    Staying in the EU would be the ultimate act of running away. It would only be "brave" in a Brave Sir Robin kind of way....

    And it would give the current politicians in the UK hell to pay. And hand many of them their P45. In June, 80%+ voted for parties who were pledged to getting us out the EU. "We gave you one job to do....Just one."

    Well over 50% of voters also backed parties that favour immediate confirmation that the rights of EU resident in the UK should be immediately and unconditionally confirmed. We're not doing that.

    Have you seen why? Have you seee the way the EU negotiators have banked the PM's Florence speech and just flatly said "More...."? Yes, it would have been great to have sorted this issue out. The humane thing to do. But for that, there needs to be good faith by the EU. And that just isn't happening.

    The UK does not take responsibility for this issue still causing huge worry to many people.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,436
    Nigelb said:

    alex. said:

    Nigelb said:

    An "interesting" idea from Corbyn...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820

    Well I suppose it's way of ensuring that no "robots" are developed and no companies like Uber or Deliveroo are ever created in the first place.
    No, it's a way of ensuring any such activity will happen outside of the UK. With presumably miraculous results for our economy....
    Can you have wholly negative miracles?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,463
    edited October 2017
    Corbyn wants robots to be owned by workers, not employers and Uber replaced by co-operatives
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41614820
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,436

    Mr. Mark, possibly. Still a credible route for the far right to rise, alas.

    The failure to deliver Brexit would lead to a significant portion of the voters getting very, very peeved indeed. I'd hate to see it, but I suspect direct action would be vented in ways virtually all on here would be appalled about.
  • Icarus said:

    As Schroedinger was an Irish citizen - that would work.

    However better to be brave and stay in the EU!

    Staying in the EU would be the ultimate act of running away. It would only be "brave" in a Brave Sir Robin kind of way....

    And it would give the current politicians in the UK hell to pay. And hand many of them their P45. In June, 80%+ voted for parties who were pledged to getting us out the EU. "We gave you one job to do....Just one."

    Well over 50% of voters also backed parties that favour immediate confirmation that the rights of EU resident in the UK should be immediately and unconditionally confirmed. We're not doing that.

    Have you seen why? Have you seee the way the EU negotiators have banked the PM's Florence speech and just flatly said "More...."? Yes, it would have been great to have sorted this issue out. The humane thing to do. But for that, there needs to be good faith by the EU. And that just isn't happening.

    The UK does not take responsibility for this issue still causing huge worry to many people.

    The rights and status of EU citizens in the UK is entirely the responsibility of the UK. Over 50% of voters backed parties that favour immediate and unconditional recognition of their existing rights. That's a majority, just like the 80% voting for parties that back Brexit is a majority. Or maybe it's a bit more complicated than that.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 33,591
    What about carousel fraud? It cost us enough to buy several DUPs in the early years of this century. If we are not in the customs union what is to stop importers from simply not accounting for VAT on goods that have been sneaked across the border, reclaiming VAT on a sale here, exporting them to Eire and repeating the process? This is an existing problem within the Customs Union but I can't help believing that the opportunities are going to be greater out of it if there is no record keeping. The Customs Union has hard borders to stop this. Can we ignore the problem in Eire without it costing both governments a fortune?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,463

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    No it doesn't, it just revives loyalist paramilitaries. Powersharing remains the only way forward for Northern Ireland.

    Though Theresa May would have won a small majority in a UK of England, Wales and Scotland alone
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    The failure to deliver Brexit would lead to a significant portion of the voters getting very, very peeved indeed. I'd hate to see it, but I suspect direct action would be vented in ways virtually all on here would be appalled about.

    The economic consequences of Brexit may well deliver exactly the same thing
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    The issue is that the UK becomes a third country when it leaves the EU. WTO rules forbid dicriminatory treatment in the absence of a formal trade agreement between countries. The UK only has borders with the EU. The EU has borders with a number of third countries. A de facto soft border between the EU and UK discriminates against other third countries with which the EU has a border - Russia and Ukraine, for example. The EU just cannot do it. There has to be an agreement that is then properly policed. Anything else invites WTO action against the EU.

    I don't know much about the Sweden/Norway border, but has it ever been open in the way that the Irish border is now? If not, the trade flows between Norway and Sweden are unlikely to mirror those between NI and Ireland. What's more, I suspect the Norway/Sweden border is the subject of a formal, policed agreement.

    All of the above is why the Irish border is an EU red line. It has no choice. Unless the problem is resolved there will be No Deal.

    The Norway Sweden border is policed this way:

    http://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-ireland-border-customs-norway-sweden/

    Though to do this Norway has to promise to harmonise its commercial policies with the EU:

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/is-the-norway-sweden-border-a-model-for-uk-ireland/

  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    And stuffs the Republic with about a net £10 billion (?) bill to cover what we send to the NI anyway ( pre DUP deal), a problem of the unemployed public sector workers many of whose jobs will be sent back to England) things like U.K. customs office in Enniskillen), and about a million highly less than chuffed citizens (about 15% of the new total) mostly camped in one corner of the territory.

    If Mr Varadkar thinks he’s got problems now....
  • HYUFD said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    No it doesn't, it just revives loyalist paramilitaries. Powersharing remains the only way forward for Northern Ireland.

    Though Theresa May would have won a small majority in a UK of England, Wales and Scotland alone
    Wouldn’t be our problem. It’s not like the loyalist paramilitaries are going to start bombing London.

    The DUP like pork, they also went into power sharing with Sinn Fein, I’m sure for the right money they’ll go into power with Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    HYUFD said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    No it doesn't, it just revives loyalist paramilitaries. Powersharing remains the only way forward for Northern Ireland.

    Though Theresa May would have won a small majority in a UK of England, Wales and Scotland alone
    Wouldn’t be our problem. It’s not like the loyalist paramilitaries are going to start bombing London.

    The DUP like pork, they also went into power sharing with Sinn Fein, I’m sure for the right money they’ll go into power with Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil.
    How about we sell off Yorkshire to Denmark? Might solve a lot of issues.
  • welshowl said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    And stuffs the Republic with about a net £10 billion (?) bill to cover what we send to the NI anyway ( pre DUP deal), a problem of the unemployed public sector workers many of whose jobs will be sent back to England) things like U.K. customs office in Enniskillen), and about a million highly less than chuffed citizens (about 15% of the new total) mostly camped in one corner of the territory.

    If Mr Varadkar thinks he’s got problems now....
    We send Northern Ireland £180 million per week, let’s spenf that on the NHS instead.

    Oh, stick that on the side of a bus and I think I’ve found a way for the Tories to win a majority in 2022.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 79,463
    edited October 2017

    HYUFD said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    No it doesn't, it just revives loyalist paramilitaries. Powersharing remains the only way forward for Northern Ireland.

    Though Theresa May would have won a small majority in a UK of England, Wales and Scotland alone
    Wouldn’t be our problem. It’s not like the loyalist paramilitaries are going to start bombing London.

    The DUP like pork, they also went into power sharing with Sinn Fein, I’m sure for the right money they’ll go into power with Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil.
    Given Republican paramilitaries would almost certainly start up again in response London would soon be on the target list again from their side just as Dublin would be a target for loyalist terrorist groups.

    The DUP like powersharing when they are the largest party as in Northern Ireland, not when they would be a permanent minority as they would be in the Republic and they would also rsther occasionally hold the balance of power at Westminster than the Dail
  • welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    No it doesn't, it just revives loyalist paramilitaries. Powersharing remains the only way forward for Northern Ireland.

    Though Theresa May would have won a small majority in a UK of England, Wales and Scotland alone
    Wouldn’t be our problem. It’s not like the loyalist paramilitaries are going to start bombing London.

    The DUP like pork, they also went into power sharing with Sinn Fein, I’m sure for the right money they’ll go into power with Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil.
    How about we sell off Yorkshire to Denmark? Might solve a lot of issues.
    Yorkshire is the backbone of England, Britain, and the United Kingdom, unlike Norn Iron, plus there’s no customs union issue here.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    welshowl said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    And stuffs the Republic with about a net £10 billion (?) bill to cover what we send to the NI anyway ( pre DUP deal), a problem of the unemployed public sector workers many of whose jobs will be sent back to England) things like U.K. customs office in Enniskillen), and about a million highly less than chuffed citizens (about 15% of the new total) mostly camped in one corner of the territory.

    If Mr Varadkar thinks he’s got problems now....
    In effect the Good Friday Agreement, and other policies such as CTA, or automatic Irish citizenship for those born in the six counties do give joint sovereignty over the province. NI as a devolved province of RoI would work as well as being a devolved part of the UK.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,624
    A very interesting and witty thread-header Mr Herdson. Thank-you.

    If only we didn't have people running the show who appear not to be able to negotiate their way out of a paper bag, I would have more confidence.
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 5,770
    welshowl said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    And stuffs the Republic with about a net £10 billion (?) bill to cover what we send to the NI anyway ( pre DUP deal), a problem of the unemployed public sector workers many of whose jobs will be sent back to England) things like U.K. customs office in Enniskillen), and about a million highly less than chuffed citizens (about 15% of the new total) mostly camped in one corner of the territory.

    If Mr Varadkar thinks he’s got problems now....
    A 30+2 partition with Antrim and Down remaining the UK with a hard border might be more feasible.
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,263

    HYUFD said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    No it doesn't, it just revives loyalist paramilitaries. Powersharing remains the only way forward for Northern Ireland.

    Though Theresa May would have won a small majority in a UK of England, Wales and Scotland alone
    Wouldn’t be our problem. It’s not like the loyalist paramilitaries are going to start bombing London.

    The DUP like pork, they also went into power sharing with Sinn Fein, I’m sure for the right money they’ll go into power with Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil.
    Even without violence the DUP would create a bed of nails, which is surely why Eire would never touch it.
  • The issue is that the UK becomes a third country when it leaves the EU. WTO rules forbid dicriminatory treatment in the absence of a formal trade agreement between countries. The UK only has borders with the EU. The EU has borders with a number of third countries. A de facto soft border between the EU and UK discriminates against other third countries with which the EU has a border - Russia and Ukraine, for example. The EU just cannot do it. There has to be an agreement that is then properly policed. Anything else invites WTO action against the EU.

    I don't know much about the Sweden/Norway border, but has it ever been open in the way that the Irish border is now? If not, the trade flows between Norway and Sweden are unlikely to mirror those between NI and Ireland. What's more, I suspect the Norway/Sweden border is the subject of a formal, policed agreement.

    All of the above is why the Irish border is an EU red line. It has no choice. Unless the problem is resolved there will be No Deal.

    The Norway Sweden border is policed this way:

    http://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-ireland-border-customs-norway-sweden/

    Though to do this Norway has to promise to harmonise its commercial policies with the EU:

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/is-the-norway-sweden-border-a-model-for-uk-ireland/

    So, essentially the Norway/Sweden solution is for Norway to largely mirror the EU regulatory regime. De jure control, de facto loss of sovereignty. Mirroring EU regulations clearly would clearly limit the UK's ability to do FTAs - no chlorinated chicken!

  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    welshowl said:

    HYUFD said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    No it doesn't, it just revives loyalist paramilitaries. Powersharing remains the only way forward for Northern Ireland.

    Though Theresa May would have won a small majority in a UK of England, Wales and Scotland alone
    Wouldn’t be our problem. It’s not like the loyalist paramilitaries are going to start bombing London.

    The DUP like pork, they also went into power sharing with Sinn Fein, I’m sure for the right money they’ll go into power with Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil.
    How about we sell off Yorkshire to Denmark? Might solve a lot of issues.
    Yorkshire is the backbone of England, Britain, and the United Kingdom, unlike Norn Iron, plus there’s no customs union issue here.
    Yes but really there should be controls to protect the rest of us from ferret distemper, pigeon blight, and over long vowel sounds. I think customs across the Penines is a must.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 16,049

    Schroedinger's cat is only both dead and alive until it is observed.

    Did you read the article to the end?
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Icarus said:

    As Schroedinger was an Irish citizen - that would work.

    However better to be brave and stay in the EU!

    Staying in the EU would be the ultimate act of running away. It would only be "brave" in a Brave Sir Robin kind of way....

    And it would give the current politicians in the UK hell to pay. And hand many of them their P45. In June, 80%+ voted for parties who were pledged to getting us out the EU. "We gave you one job to do....Just one."

    Well over 50% of voters also backed parties that favour immediate confirmation that the rights of EU resident in the UK should be immediately and unconditionally confirmed. We're not doing that.

    Have you seen why? Have you seee the way the EU negotiators have banked the PM's Florence speech and just flatly said "More...."? Yes, it would have been great to have sorted this issue out. The humane thing to do. But for that, there needs to be good faith by the EU. And that just isn't happening.

    The UK does not take responsibility for this issue still causing huge worry to many people.

    The rights and status of EU citizens in the UK is entirely the responsibility of the UK. Over 50% of voters backed parties that favour immediate and unconditional recognition of their existing rights. That's a majority, just like the 80% voting for parties that back Brexit is a majority. Or maybe it's a bit more complicated than that.

    Yes it is more complicated, which parties didn't back it?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    Dura_Ace said:

    welshowl said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    And stuffs the Republic with about a net £10 billion (?) bill to cover what we send to the NI anyway ( pre DUP deal), a problem of the unemployed public sector workers many of whose jobs will be sent back to England) things like U.K. customs office in Enniskillen), and about a million highly less than chuffed citizens (about 15% of the new total) mostly camped in one corner of the territory.

    If Mr Varadkar thinks he’s got problems now....
    A 30+2 partition with Antrim and Down remaining the UK with a hard border might be more feasible.
    But you have literally just moved the problem.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 38,315
    "That’s far from certain as the two sides continue to talk at cross purposes, becoming irritated with each other in the process as neither understands why the other won’t be reasonable. It’s a microcosm of why the difference in philosophical understanding of what the EU is propelled Britain to leave in the first place."

    Precisely, David. This is what I've been saying for months.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    A very interesting and witty thread-header Mr Herdson. Thank-you.

    If only we didn't have people running the show who appear not to be able to negotiate their way out of a paper bag, I would have more confidence.

    Nobody is covering themselves in glory but to be fair to Barnier his remit is insane from the 27. How do you know what controls, if any, are needed at the border unless and until you know what the overall trade and other relationships are going to be?

    It’s impossible.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    The issue is that the UK becomes a third country when it leaves the EU. WTO rules forbid dicriminatory treatment in the absence of a formal trade agreement between countries. The UK only has borders with the EU. The EU has borders with a number of third countries. A de facto soft border between the EU and UK discriminates against other third countries with which the EU has a border - Russia and Ukraine, for example. The EU just cannot do it. There has to be an agreement that is then properly policed. Anything else invites WTO action against the EU.

    I don't know much about the Sweden/Norway border, but has it ever been open in the way that the Irish border is now? If not, the trade flows between Norway and Sweden are unlikely to mirror those between NI and Ireland. What's more, I suspect the Norway/Sweden border is the subject of a formal, policed agreement.

    All of the above is why the Irish border is an EU red line. It has no choice. Unless the problem is resolved there will be No Deal.

    The Norway Sweden border is policed this way:

    http://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-ireland-border-customs-norway-sweden/

    Though to do this Norway has to promise to harmonise its commercial policies with the EU:

    https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/is-the-norway-sweden-border-a-model-for-uk-ireland/

    So, essentially the Norway/Sweden solution is for Norway to largely mirror the EU regulatory regime. De jure control, de facto loss of sovereignty. Mirroring EU regulations clearly would clearly limit the UK's ability to do FTAs - no chlorinated chicken!

    These Trade Deals seem either mythical or undesirable. The competence of our DExEU team doesnt bode well for our single member Board of Trade.

    In reality we need to remain in the Customs Union after Brexit, as we have neither the infrastructure nor the supply chains to do otherwise without maximum disruption. A sensible Brexit policy would be to stay in the CU permanantly*, and unlock many of the other issues.

    *Nothing in politics is ever truly permanent, so we could revisit this in time if it wasn't working.


  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited October 2017

    Icarus said:

    As Schroedinger was an Irish citizen - that would work.

    However better to be brave and stay in the EU!

    Staying in the EU would be the ultimate act of running away. It would only be "brave" in a Brave Sir Robin kind of way....

    And it would give the current politicians in the UK hell to pay. And hand many of them their P45. In June, 80%+ voted for parties who were pledged to getting us out the EU. "We gave you one job to do....Just one."

    Well over 50% of voters also backed parties that favour immediate confirmation that the rights of EU resident in the UK should be immediately and unconditionally confirmed. We're not doing that.

    Have you seen why? Have you seee the way the EU negotiators have banked the PM's Florence speech and just flatly said "More...."? Yes, it would have been great to have sorted this issue out. The humane thing to do. But for that, there needs to be good faith by the EU. And that just isn't happening.

    The UK does not take responsibility for this issue still causing huge worry to many people.

    The rights and status of EU citizens in the UK is entirely the responsibility of the UK. Over 50% of voters backed parties that favour immediate and unconditional recognition of their existing rights. That's a majority, just like the 80% voting for parties that back Brexit is a majority. Or maybe it's a bit more complicated than that.

    Their rights and status being guaranteed unconditionally by... what? Isn't that the fundamental point at dispute?
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 38,315
    Excellent article, David. I don't agree with you on the UK and trade deals (even a Remain supporting cabinet minister has said he's been surprised at just how many countries are interested in doing a trade deal with the UK) but the solution to the NI border is for the UK to grant NI a special status in the UK, and for the EU to do the same for EIRE in the EU.

    Checking rules of origin and final destinations of goods with spot checks at airports/ ports in NI and EIRE should be enough compliance, for now, and free movement across the NI/EIRE border is unlikely to be a big problem.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,624

    The issue is that the UK becomes a third country when it leaves the EU. WTO rules forbid dicriminatory treatment in the absence of a formal trade agreement between countries. The UK only has borders with the EU. The EU has borders with a number of third countries. A de facto soft border between the EU and UK discriminates against other third countries with which the EU has a border - Russia and Ukraine, for example. The EU just cannot do it. There has to be an agreement that is then properly policed. Anything else invites WTO action against the EU.

    I don't know much about the Sweden/Norway border, but has it ever been open in the way that the Irish border is now? If not, the trade flows between Norway and Sweden are unlikely to mirror those between NI and Ireland. What's more, I suspect the Norway/Sweden border is the subject of a formal, policed agreement.

    All of the above is why the Irish border is an EU red line. It has no choice. Unless the problem is resolved there will be No Deal.

    Although if there's No Deal there would be a border between Eire and NI, so how does that help anyone?
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    Anthony Eden was divorced in 1950 and married his second wife, Clarissa in 1952. Number 2 is still alive aged 97 and is a niece of Winston Churchill.

    Not the oldest Prime Ministerial spouse still alive though.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 54,298
    Mr. Owl, indeed. The EU's approach to the negotiation is literally nonsensical because the order is irrational.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Mr. Mark, possibly. Still a credible route for the far right to rise, alas.

    The failure to deliver Brexit would lead to a significant portion of the voters getting very, very peeved indeed. I'd hate to see it, but I suspect direct action would be vented in ways virtually all on here would be appalled about.
    And if it turns out that Brexit is undeliverable?
  • The issue is that the UK becomes a third country when it leaves the EU. WTO rules forbid dicriminatory treatment in the absence of a formal trade agreement between countries. The UK only has borders with the EU. The EU has borders with a number of third countries. A de facto soft border between the EU and UK discriminates against other third countries with which the EU has a border - Russia and Ukraine, for example. The EU just cannot do it. There has to be an agreement that is then properly policed. Anything else invites WTO action against the EU.

    I don't know much about the Sweden/Norway border, but has it ever been open in the way that the Irish border is now? If not, the trade flows between Norway and Sweden are unlikely to mirror those between NI and Ireland. What's more, I suspect the Norway/Sweden border is the subject of a formal, policed agreement.

    All of the above is why the Irish border is an EU red line. It has no choice. Unless the problem is resolved there will be No Deal.

    Although if there's No Deal there would be a border between Eire and NI, so how does that help anyone?

    Yep, and for that reason for the RoI no deal is better than a bad deal.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 58,286
    On the end sentence, is it not the case that with Ireland the best option is not to ask about anything?

    How's the assembly getting along?
  • Mr. Owl, indeed. The EU's approach to the negotiation is literally nonsensical because the order is irrational.

    So why did David Davis agree to it? He promised us the row of the summer over it then rolled over and let Mr Barnier tickle his tummy.

    Brexiteers, just not up to it.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 35,066

    ...the solution to the NI border is for the UK to grant NI a special status in the UK, and for the EU to do the same for EIRE in the EU.

    What does 'NI having special status within the UK' mean if not a customs border between NI and GB, which is unacceptable to the DUP and not only them.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    alex. said:

    Anthony Eden was divorced in 1950 and married his second wife, Clarissa in 1952. Number 2 is still alive aged 97 and is a niece of Winston Churchill.

    Not the oldest Prime Ministerial spouse still alive though.
    Mary Wilson?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,624
    welshowl said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    welshowl said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    And stuffs the Republic with about a net £10 billion (?) bill to cover what we send to the NI anyway ( pre DUP deal), a problem of the unemployed public sector workers many of whose jobs will be sent back to England) things like U.K. customs office in Enniskillen), and about a million highly less than chuffed citizens (about 15% of the new total) mostly camped in one corner of the territory.

    If Mr Varadkar thinks he’s got problems now....
    A 30+2 partition with Antrim and Down remaining the UK with a hard border might be more feasible.
    But you have literally just moved the problem.
    Good to see that word literally being used properly for once! :smile:
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    welshowl said:

    A very interesting and witty thread-header Mr Herdson. Thank-you.

    If only we didn't have people running the show who appear not to be able to negotiate their way out of a paper bag, I would have more confidence.

    Nobody is covering themselves in glory but to be fair to Barnier his remit is insane from the 27. How do you know what controls, if any, are needed at the border unless and until you know what the overall trade and other relationships are going to be?

    It’s impossible.
    Perhaps the UK should just announce that there will be a hard physical border between Northern Ireland and the Republic. What then is there further to discuss until such time as a trade agreement is developed?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 34,787
    edited October 2017
    alex. said:

    Icarus said:

    As Schroedinger was an Irish citizen - that would work.

    However better to be brave and stay in the EU!

    Staying in the EU would be the ultimate act of running away. It would only be "brave" in a Brave Sir Robin kind of way....

    And it would give the current politicians in the UK hell to pay. And hand many of them their P45. In June, 80%+ voted for parties who were pledged to getting us out the EU. "We gave you one job to do....Just one."

    Well over 50% of voters also backed parties that favour immediate confirmation that the rights of EU resident in the UK should be immediately and unconditionally confirmed. We're not doing that.

    Have you seen why? Have you seee the way the EU negotiators have banked the PM's Florence speech and just flatly said "More...."? Yes, it would have been great to have sorted this issue out. The humane thing to do. But for that, there needs to be good faith by the EU. And that just isn't happening.

    The UK does not take responsibility for this issue still causing huge worry to many people.

    The rights and status of EU citizens in the UK is entirely the responsibility of the UK. Over 50% of voters backed parties that favour immediate and unconditional recognition of their existing rights. That's a majority, just like the 80% voting for parties that back Brexit is a majority. Or maybe it's a bit more complicated than that.

    Their rights and status being guaranteed unconditionally by... what? Isn't that the fundamental point at dispute?

    It can be done under UK law. Give EU citizens resident here on a specific date the rights they enjoy now. That would apply in the absence of a final deal.

  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 38,315
    daodao said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think Brexit and the 26-6 partition of Ireland can simultaneously exist. One of them is going to have to give.

    The obvious interim solution is to move the controlled border (for people and goods) between the EU and the UK to the Irish Sea, as a prelude to Irish re-unification. In the EU referendum, there was a 56-44 majority in favour of remaining in the EU in the 6 counties.
    The majority of people in Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the United Kingdom.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 58,286
    Scott_P said:

    The failure to deliver Brexit would lead to a significant portion of the voters getting very, very peeved indeed. I'd hate to see it, but I suspect direct action would be vented in ways virtually all on here would be appalled about.

    The economic consequences of Brexit may well deliver exactly the same thing
    A Morton's fork then.
  • daodao said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think Brexit and the 26-6 partition of Ireland can simultaneously exist. One of them is going to have to give.

    The obvious interim solution is to move the controlled border (for people and goods) between the EU and the UK to the Irish Sea, as a prelude to Irish re-unification. In the EU referendum, there was a 56-44 majority in favour of remaining in the EU in the 6 counties.
    The majority of people in Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the United Kingdom.
    The majority of people in Northern Ireland wish to remain a part of the EU.

    Try squaring that circle.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 38,315
    daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think Brexit and the 26-6 partition of Ireland can simultaneously exist. One of them is going to have to give.

    The obvious interim solution is to move the controlled border (for people and goods) between the EU and the UK to the Irish Sea, as a prelude to Irish re-unification. In the EU referendum, there was a 56-44 majority in favour of remaining in the EU in the 6 counties.
    The United Kingdom (UK) remains the most significant market for businesses in Northern Ireland – sales to Great Britain were worth one and a half times the value of all Northern Ireland exports and nearly four times the value of exports to Ireland in 2015

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/638215/Additional_Data_Paper_-_Northern_Ireland_Trade_Data_and_Statistics__2_.pdf
    Actually, the best place for the future border between rUK and the EU is along the Cheviots (plus the Irish Sea).
    I find it fascinating how many Remainers feel that Britain should be punished for its vote to Leave the EU by stripping it of as much of its domestic and overseas territory as possible.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,624

    welshowl said:

    As I said yesterday, time to give Northern Ireland to Eire, it is the only solution, and solves a lot of other non Brexit problems too.

    And stuffs the Republic with about a net £10 billion (?) bill to cover what we send to the NI anyway ( pre DUP deal), a problem of the unemployed public sector workers many of whose jobs will be sent back to England) things like U.K. customs office in Enniskillen), and about a million highly less than chuffed citizens (about 15% of the new total) mostly camped in one corner of the territory.

    If Mr Varadkar thinks he’s got problems now....
    We send Northern Ireland £180 million per week, let’s spenf that on the NHS instead.

    Oh, stick that on the side of a bus and I think I’ve found a way for the Tories to win a majority in 2022.

    Except the GE would be in 2018 once the DUP get wind.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    alex. said:

    Icarus said:

    As Schroedinger was an Irish citizen - that would work.

    However better to be brave and stay in the EU!

    Staying in the EU would be the ultimate act of running away. It would only be "brave" in a Brave Sir Robin kind of way....

    And it would give the current politicians in the UK hell to pay. And hand many of them their P45. In June, 80%+ voted for parties who were pledged to getting us out the EU. "We gave you one job to do....Just one."

    Well over 50% of voters also backed parties that favour immediate confirmation that the rights of EU resident in the UK should be immediately and unconditionally confirmed. We're not doing that.

    Have you seen why? Have you seee the way the EU negotiators have banked the PM's Florence speech and just flatly said "More...."? Yes, it would have been great to have sorted this issue out. The humane thing to do. But for that, there needs to be good faith by the EU. And that just isn't happening.

    The UK does not take responsibility for this issue still causing huge worry to many people.

    The rights and status of EU citizens in the UK is entirely the responsibility of the UK. Over 50% of voters backed parties that favour immediate and unconditional recognition of their existing rights. That's a majority, just like the 80% voting for parties that back Brexit is a majority. Or maybe it's a bit more complicated than that.

    Their rights and status being guaranteed unconditionally by... what? Isn't that the fundamental point at dispute?

    It can be done under UK law. Give EU citizens resident here on a specific date the rights they enjoy now. That would apply in the absence of a final deal.

    Yes it could. But that would be unacceptable to the EU, so whilst it might be the right thing to do to ease concerns for non UK EU citizens in the country, it wouldn't actually resolve anything as regards the negotiations.

  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 35,436
    edited October 2017

    Mr. Mark, possibly. Still a credible route for the far right to rise, alas.

    The failure to deliver Brexit would lead to a significant portion of the voters getting very, very peeved indeed. I'd hate to see it, but I suspect direct action would be vented in ways virtually all on here would be appalled about.
    And if it turns out that Brexit is undeliverable?
    Brexit is going to be delivered. And I have no doubt, some aspects will be painful. There will be losers, some of those will be people who voted for Leave with a greater sense of optimism that their life would be better.

    But amidst all this uncertainty, there's one thing we can be sure of: those who tied us into the EU, often on the sly, with the intention of making sure that leaving was impossible or incredibly costly - without ever getting the blessing of the the people of the UK in this - will take no responsibility whatspever for their actions. It will all be down to those pesky kids who found them out and stopped them.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,624

    Mr. Mark, possibly. Still a credible route for the far right to rise, alas.

    The failure to deliver Brexit would lead to a significant portion of the voters getting very, very peeved indeed. I'd hate to see it, but I suspect direct action would be vented in ways virtually all on here would be appalled about.

    Ha! An army of over-65s setting barriers in the street!
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 35,066
    David's first paragraph sounds overly defensive. Why does an article about the Irish border need to start with a reassurance that Brexit really, really, really will happen?
  • welshowl said:

    A very interesting and witty thread-header Mr Herdson. Thank-you.

    If only we didn't have people running the show who appear not to be able to negotiate their way out of a paper bag, I would have more confidence.

    Nobody is covering themselves in glory but to be fair to Barnier his remit is insane from the 27. How do you know what controls, if any, are needed at the border unless and until you know what the overall trade and other relationships are going to be?

    It’s impossible.

    The UK government has still to decide what relationship it wants with the EU post-Brexit.

  • kle4kle4 Posts: 58,286

    daodao said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think Brexit and the 26-6 partition of Ireland can simultaneously exist. One of them is going to have to give.

    The obvious interim solution is to move the controlled border (for people and goods) between the EU and the UK to the Irish Sea, as a prelude to Irish re-unification. In the EU referendum, there was a 56-44 majority in favour of remaining in the EU in the 6 counties.
    The majority of people in Northern Ireland wish to remain part of the United Kingdom.
    Yes. That may nor always be so, but even as a joke I don't know why people are so quick to act as though handing over northern Ireland would be so simple and an actual solution to problems. Even more Scots wanted to remain and it hasn't to date, led to an increased desire for independence. Now Ireland is not exactly the same given the interconnections, but it is absurd to presume wanting to remain in the EU means unification is the majority desire.

    It may well be there are contradictory desires being held there, but that's hardly new.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 14,624

    Mr. Mark, possibly. Still a credible route for the far right to rise, alas.

    The failure to deliver Brexit would lead to a significant portion of the voters getting very, very peeved indeed. I'd hate to see it, but I suspect direct action would be vented in ways virtually all on here would be appalled about.
    And if it turns out that Brexit is undeliverable?
    Brexit is going to be delivered. And I have no doubt, some aspects will be painful. There will be losers, some of those will be people who voted for Leave with a greater sense of optimism that their life would be better.

    But amidst all this uncertainty, there's one thing we can be sure of: those who tied us into the EU, often on the sly, with the intention of making sure that leaving was impossible or incredibly costly - without ever getting the blessing of the the people of the UK in this - will take no responsibility whatspever for their actions. It will all be down to those pesky kids who found them out and stopped them.
    The 'kids' didn't, as a majority, vote to Leave.
  • daodao said:

    daodao said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I don't think Brexit and the 26-6 partition of Ireland can simultaneously exist. One of them is going to have to give.

    The obvious interim solution is to move the controlled border (for people and goods) between the EU and the UK to the Irish Sea, as a prelude to Irish re-unification. In the EU referendum, there was a 56-44 majority in favour of remaining in the EU in the 6 counties.
    The United Kingdom (UK) remains the most significant market for businesses in Northern Ireland – sales to Great Britain were worth one and a half times the value of all Northern Ireland exports and nearly four times the value of exports to Ireland in 2015

    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/638215/Additional_Data_Paper_-_Northern_Ireland_Trade_Data_and_Statistics__2_.pdf
    Actually, the best place for the future border between rUK and the EU is along the Cheviots (plus the Irish Sea).
    I find it fascinating how many Remainers feel that Britain should be punished for its vote to Leave the EU by stripping it of as much of its domestic and overseas territory as possible.
    Spoken like a true little englander. The scots also voted to remain. They will not accept a hard border with Northern Ireland
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 38,315

    Mr. Toms, terminal metropolitanism?

    It's the divide that's the problem. Blaming one side or another misses the point.

    Mr. Observer, we also had politicians playing down the impact the EU has on us. Now it seems to affect everything. If Remain had won, the media and politicians might be happier but we wouldn't be a land of sweetness and light, it's just that those who report the news wouldn't be so eager to point out the divide.

    There's a case to be made for saying that voting for Brexit has saved us from the rise of the Far Right in this country...unlike much of the EU. Without the Brexit vote safety valve, EU immigration to the UK would not be falling from its previous highs (certainly not at the rate we have seen), we would be under intense pressure to "do our bit" and take in our "fair share" of Merkel's Refugees - and France and Germany would still be angling to hobble the City and reduce still further our ability to slow the progress towards the Super-state.

    So Yay! for Brexit....
    It's very easy to forget some of the very good reasons we voted for Brexit.
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