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Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Danny565 said:

Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Well Dave got out for an easier life.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/09/david-cameron-takes-job-with-us-electronic-payments-firm-first-data

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/oct/09/ben-jerrys-to-launch-glyphosate-free-ice-cream-after-tests-find-traces-of-weedkiller

I don't remember seeing weedkiller as a flavour in my local store. FYI, if people want a much healthy (way less calories, no sugar, but still actually has milk and cream in it), I can highly recommend Oppo.

Danny565 said:

Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Then what happens if Remain wins that? Do we have a third referendum?

Democracy demands the Brexit result be honoured.

People were warned Brexit would be a clusterfeck, they still voted for it.

I see pb.com is in mass panic mode this evening.

FWIW, I think the white papers on the Trade and Customs bills are actually quite good (and I recommend reading them, rather than just reading the attack tweets of those who have their own pre-existing agendas).

The Government position is correct. Negotiations are clearly going to go down to the wire. Only once we have a clear agreed framework for the future can we start the transition process to it. We will need those 2 years to line up new trade deals, and prepare our institutional infrastructure for Brexit. Neither Parliament nor the civil service can do it any quicker. And nor, quite frankly, can private business.

Let's see what the EU offers in terms of detail, but I'd suspect we'd "formally" quit on 29th March 2019, with slightly reduced net contributions, the ability to formally start trade talks elsewhere, and CFP/CAP coming back straight away.

If it does look *exactly* the same as EU membership, in every single regard, then I'd agree May would have a political problem, but let's wait and see.

FrancisUrquhart said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

A University of Oxford college banned Christian Union representatives from attending its freshers’ fair over concerns at the “potential for harm to freshers”.

Balliol Christian Union (CU) was told the college’s student body, the JCR, wanted the freshers’ fair to be a “secular space”, according to Oxford’s student newspaper Cherwell.

Eventually the CU was told that a single multi-faith stall would be allowed to display leaflets, though no representatives would be allowed to staff it, according to leaked emails seen by the paper. Balliol CU boycotted this option.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/09/anger-as-oxford-college-bans-christian-group-from-freshers-fair?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

According to the paper, he added: “Christianity’s influence on many marginalised communities has been damaging in its methods of conversion and rules of practice, and is still used in many places as an excuse for homophobia and certain forms of neo-colonialism.”

I bet he wouldn't say that about certain other faiths...

Exactly.

No of Christian nations where gay men are subject to the death penalty - zero.

No of nations where a certain other religion is a majority where gay men are subject to the death penalty - 11.

According to a recent C4 poll published in the Guardian proportion of Christians in the UK who think homosexuality should be made illegal 5 per cent

Proportion of adherents of another faith in the UK who think homosexuality should be illegal - 52 per cent.

i don't deny Christianity has created issues for gay men over the centuries - but surely all religions should be treated equally.

FrancisUrquhart said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

A University of Oxford college banned Christian Union representatives from attending its freshers’ fair over concerns at the “potential for harm to freshers”.

Balliol Christian Union (CU) was told the college’s student body, the JCR, wanted the freshers’ fair to be a “secular space”, according to Oxford’s student newspaper Cherwell.

Eventually the CU was told that a single multi-faith stall would be allowed to display leaflets, though no representatives would be allowed to staff it, according to leaked emails seen by the paper. Balliol CU boycotted this option.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/09/anger-as-oxford-college-bans-christian-group-from-freshers-fair?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

According to the paper, he added: “Christianity’s influence on many marginalised communities has been damaging in its methods of conversion and rules of practice, and is still used in many places as an excuse for homophobia and certain forms of neo-colonialism.”

I bet he wouldn't say that about certain other faiths...

Considering no "certain other faiths" had a stall either what makes you say that?

If the CU was the only faith prevented from having a stall you may have had a point.

SeanT said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Danny565 said:

Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Then what happens if Remain wins that? Do we have a third referendum?

Democracy demands the Brexit result be honoured.

People warned Brexit would be a clusterfeck.

Clusterfuck, what clusterfuck?

I agree (and have said on here) that the economic stats for 2017 are not encouraging, but we still have modest growth, record employment, manufacturing is vigorous, the £ has stabilised (albeit devalued).

I expect a recession soon, but a recession was on the cards anyway. It's been ten years since the last.

A clusterfuck is not guaranteed. We just need to accept leaving the EU is bloody hard and join EEA or EFTA for 5-10 years to minimise the damage, then have another think.

The turmoil in the Tory party, however, could indeed steer us onto the rocks.

Yup. After thinking long and hard about it - time and time again - pretty much every time I visit this site I think, I still wouldn't change my vote.

Brexit was a binary option. Either a) carry on, everything's fine, or b) pull the emergency cord and sort the whole mess out - clusterfuck or not, at least now it's forcing us to confront the societal and economic issues caused by unchecked immigration, the housing crisis, erosion of democratic accountability, and so on.

Brexit remains, in my view, the least worst option. The only people who think that Brexit is a "clusterfuck of epic proportions" are the well-to-do and I'm-alright-Jacks who were happy with the status quo, and even happier with the transfer of sovereignty away from the people and towards an unaccountable supranational body that has demonstrated time and time again it doesn't have the UK's best interests at heart.

Is Brexit going to be bad? Possibly. Quite probably.

Is the alternative worse? Yes, I believe so.

Would reversing the decision now, sticking the middle finger up at 52% of the population and telling them that their vote meant nothing, be the worst possible decision of all? Without a doubt.

FrancisUrquhart said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

A University of Oxford college banned Christian Union representatives from attending its freshers’ fair over concerns at the “potential for harm to freshers”.

Balliol Christian Union (CU) was told the college’s student body, the JCR, wanted the freshers’ fair to be a “secular space”, according to Oxford’s student newspaper Cherwell.

Eventually the CU was told that a single multi-faith stall would be allowed to display leaflets, though no representatives would be allowed to staff it, according to leaked emails seen by the paper. Balliol CU boycotted this option.

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/oct/09/anger-as-oxford-college-bans-christian-group-from-freshers-fair?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

According to the paper, he added: “Christianity’s influence on many marginalised communities has been damaging in its methods of conversion and rules of practice, and is still used in many places as an excuse for homophobia and certain forms of neo-colonialism.”

I bet he wouldn't say that about certain other faiths...

Considering no "certain other faiths" had a stall either what makes you say that?

If the CU was the only faith prevented from having a stall you may have had a point.

The point was the reasoning given. I am equally appalled that no faith was allowed to have a stall.

The reasoning was controversial but entirely correct. Christianity like certain other faiths is a pox the world would be better off without.

But its a free country. They should have been allowed a stall.

Got to say I really can't get worked up about the ECJ control during the 2 year transition period. If that is what it takes to get agreement so we can finally leave then I can live with it. It still means we are out by 2021 which is far better than I expected less than 2 years ago.

I am right in thinking Mrs May has just crossed one of Boris Johnson's red lines and he's supportive of that?

Danny565 said:

Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Yup.

Earlier today the excellent @HHemmelig posted an evidence-based summary of why the last steelworks in South Yorkshire will be doomed by a no deal Brexit.

Needless to say it didn't fit the leaver narrative so was ignored. That's where PB is these days. A Kool aid drinking club.

Recidivist said:

SeanT said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Danny565 said:

Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Then what happens if Remain wins that? Do we have a third referendum?

Democracy demands the Brexit result be honoured.

People warned Brexit would be a clusterfeck.

Clusterfuck, what clusterfuck?

I agree (and have said on here) that the economic stats for 2017 are not encouraging, but we still have modest growth, record employment, manufacturing is vigorous, the £ has stabilised (albeit devalued).

I expect a recession soon, but a recession was on the cards anyway. It's been ten years since the last.

A clusterfuck is not guaranteed. We just need to accept leaving the EU is bloody hard and join EEA or EFTA for 5-10 years to minimise the damage, then have another think.

Sounds like a plan. We could be back in by 2024.

To repeat what I posted at the end of the last thread when TSE made the same suggestion.

Not a chance old chap. This is the same delusion shared by Williamglenn. Once we have left, whether on good or bad terms, antipathy towards the EU will only increase and the EU will continue to centralise whilst antagonising many of its members. Both of these are inevitable and mean we will never rejoin the EU.

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Got to say I really can't get worked up about the ECJ control during the 2 year transition period. If that is what it takes to get agreement so we can finally leave then I can live with it. It still means we are out by 2021 which is far better than I expected less than 2 years ago.

Four more years of possible events which could presage a GE, a Labour government, and staying in the single market. No wonder JRM is panicking.

I would be very happy with the Single Market but if Labour went into the next GE promising no end to freedom of movement they would crash and burn.

Richard_Tyndall said:

Got to say I really can't get worked up about the ECJ control during the 2 year transition period. If that is what it takes to get agreement so we can finally leave then I can live with it. It still means we are out by 2021 which is far better than I expected less than 2 years ago.

Exactly. You can't just "quit" an economic union of 40+ years overnight without any consequences.

That is, of course, very different from saying you should *never* quit an economic union, nor that there should not be a practical path to ever doing so, if the politics of it become unacceptable to the majority.

People should be free to sensibly agree or disagree either way.

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Got to say I really can't get worked up about the ECJ control during the 2 year transition period. If that is what it takes to get agreement so we can finally leave then I can live with it. It still means we are out by 2021 which is far better than I expected less than 2 years ago.

Four more years of possible events which could presage a GE, a Labour government, and staying in the single market. No wonder JRM is panicking.

If there is a Labour Government in that time, Corbyn will become PM and won't allow the UK to remain in the single market.

RoyalBlue said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Recidivist said:

SeanT said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Danny565 said:

Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Then what happens if Remain wins that? Do we have a third referendum?

Democracy demands the Brexit result be honoured.

People warned Brexit would be a clusterfeck.

Clusterfuck, what clusterfuck?

I agree (and have said on here) that the economic stats for 2017 are not encouraging, but we still have modest growth, record employment, manufacturing is vigorous, the £ has stabilised (albeit devalued).

I expect a recession soon, but a recession was on the cards anyway. It's been ten years since the last.

A clusterfuck is not guaranteed. We just need to accept leaving the EU is bloody hard and join EEA or EFTA for 5-10 years to minimise the damage, then have another think.

Sounds like a plan. We could be back in by 2024.

To repeat what I posted at the end of the last thread when TSE made the same suggestion.

Not a chance old chap. This is the same delusion shared by Williamglenn. Once we have left, whether on good or bad terms, antipathy towards the EU will only increase and the EU will continue to centralise whilst antagonising many of its members. Both of these are inevitable and mean we will never rejoin the EU.

Sorry but this deteriminism is probably exactly the same as what Remainers were saying after they won the 1975 referendum. Very little is truly inevitable in politics.

It is based on observation of the European Project over many years and their reaction to the UK leaving. They are already accelerating closer union and senior officials are already saying they want an end to the foot dragging over the Eurozone. The EU are incapable of not antagonising member states. It is what they do.

Recidivist said:

SeanT said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Danny565 said:

Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Then what happens if Remain wins that? Do we have a third referendum?

Democracy demands the Brexit result be honoured.

People warned Brexit would be a clusterfeck.

Clusterfuck, what clusterfuck?

I agree (and have said on here) that the economic stats for 2017 are not encouraging, but we still have modest growth, record employment, manufacturing is vigorous, the £ has stabilised (albeit devalued).

I expect a recession soon, but a recession was on the cards anyway. It's been ten years since the last.

A clusterfuck is not guaranteed. We just need to accept leaving the EU is bloody hard and join EEA or EFTA for 5-10 years to minimise the damage, then have another think.

Sounds like a plan. We could be back in by 2024.

Has anyone on this website changed their mind in a year of arguing over it?

Have the polls shifted at all, nationally, beyond the margin of error?

If we re-ran the referendum and it split 48/52 to Remain this time, what would happen?

If the scenes in Catalonia last week were repeated in Brexit towns across the country, could we still call ourselves a democracy?

If homegrown separatists began marching in the streets, then spilling out into violence, would they be justified? Having had their vote at the ballot box effectively ignored and overruled? If, heaven forbid, that spilled over into a domestic bombing campaign, what then? Where do you draw the line?

TSE is right. For better or worse, democracy has to be respected. The alternatives are too awful to bear.

We do things differently in this country. It's what makes us British - heck, it's what makes me proud to be British. Democracy comes first. If the EU had the same attitude, we wouldn't be in this sorry mess in the first place.

kyf_100 said:

SeanT said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Danny565 said:

Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Then what happens if Remain wins that? Do we have a third referendum?

Democracy demands the Brexit result be honoured.

People warned Brexit would be a clusterfeck.

Clusterfuck, what clusterfuck?

Yup. After thinking long and hard about it - time and time again - pretty much every time I visit this site I think, I still wouldn't change my vote.

Brexit was a binary option. Either a) carry on, everything's fine, or b) pull the emergency cord and sort the whole mess out - clusterfuck or not, at least now it's forcing us to confront the societal and economic issues caused by unchecked immigration, the housing crisis, erosion of democratic accountability, and so on.

Brexit remains, in my view, the least worst option. The only people who think that Brexit is a "clusterfuck of epic proportions" are the well-to-do and I'm-alright-Jacks who were happy with the status quo, and even happier with the transfer of sovereignty away from the people and towards an unaccountable supranational body that has demonstrated time and time again it doesn't have the UK's best interests at heart.

Is Brexit going to be bad? Possibly. Quite probably.

Is the alternative worse? Yes, I believe so.

Would reversing the decision now, sticking the middle finger up at 52% of the population and telling them that their vote meant nothing, be the worst possible decision of all? Without a doubt.

Yes. I agree with all of this.

I think the EU showed itself to not be meaningfully reformable and, with all past experience of how it had both operated and developed, and its future path of federal intent, was no longer right geopolitical model for the UK.

What I got wrong is that I grossly underestimated how bitter it would get on both sides. I thought the vast majority of people really didn't give much of a toss about the EU, and would shrug their shoulders and accept it without much fuss if we did vote to Leave.

I was wrong. Perhaps that was always going to be the case in a close vote that chose to take the nuclear option, but I was still wrong. I admit, and accept that. I also got wrong just how threatened the EU would feel by Brexit, and how defensively it would react, and I regret some of the actions of the UK Government from c.Sept 2016 to May 2017 when it all got a bit too "Up Yours, Delors".

But, we are where we are. And it must be seen through.

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

RoyalBlue said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Got to say I really can't get worked up about the ECJ control during the 2 year transition period. If that is what it takes to get agreement so we can finally leave then I can live with it. It still means we are out by 2021 which is far better than I expected less than 2 years ago.

Four more years of possible events which could presage a GE, a Labour government, and staying in the single market. No wonder JRM is panicking.

This. Brexiteers must not assume that they have the luxury of 5-10 years to take us out in a leisurely fashion. It also wouldn't be politically viable.

This is where people like Richard North demonstrate their peerless understanding of the EU but pitiful grasp of politics in a democracy.

Whereas, for the reasons I have just given in my reply to Topping, you demonstrate a serious lack of understanding of the basic treaty requirements.

Bless. You really think the EU would reject making our membership of the single market permanent in exchange for continuing dollops of cash forever?

Guys. Don't make my mistake and start being very rude to each other.

I said the word bless. He said 'lack of understanding'. You said c***sucker.

I think we've got some way to go before we get to that level.

RoyalBlue said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

RoyalBlue said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Got to say I really can't get worked up about the ECJ control during the 2 year transition period. If that is what it takes to get agreement so we can finally leave then I can live with it. It still means we are out by 2021 which is far better than I expected less than 2 years ago.

Four more years of possible events which could presage a GE, a Labour government, and staying in the single market. No wonder JRM is panicking.

This. Brexiteers must not assume that they have the luxury of 5-10 years to take us out in a leisurely fashion. It also wouldn't be politically viable.

This is where people like Richard North demonstrate their peerless understanding of the EU but pitiful grasp of politics in a democracy.

Whereas, for the reasons I have just given in my reply to Topping, you demonstrate a serious lack of understanding of the basic treaty requirements.

Bless. You really think the EU would reject making our membership of the single market permanent in exchange for continuing dollops of cash forever?

Guys. Don't make my mistake and start being very rude to each other.

I said the word bless. He said 'lack of understanding'. You said c***sucker.

I think we've got some way to go before we get to that level.

Don't have a go at me, mate.

I've stepped in on your behalf in the past when you and TSE were hurling abuse at each other, so a little less of the high ground please.

RoyalBlue said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

RoyalBlue said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Got to say I really can't get worked up about the ECJ control during the 2 year transition period. If that is what it takes to get agreement so we can finally leave then I can live with it. It still means we are out by 2021 which is far better than I expected less than 2 years ago.

Four more years of possible events which could presage a GE, a Labour government, and staying in the single market. No wonder JRM is panicking.

This. Brexiteers must not assume that they have the luxury of 5-10 years to take us out in a leisurely fashion. It also wouldn't be politically viable.

This is where people like Richard North demonstrate their peerless understanding of the EU but pitiful grasp of politics in a democracy.

Whereas, for the reasons I have just given in my reply to Topping, you demonstrate a serious lack of understanding of the basic treaty requirements.

Bless. You really think the EU would reject making our membership of the single market permanent in exchange for continuing dollops of cash forever?

They'd bite our hand off. And who says it's Jezza. Time marches on. No Jezza = hugely increased Lab majority (vs the one Jezza would have won).

Starmer or La Thornberry would keep us in the SM perhaps indeed very likely in the EU also. And treaty schmeaty they'd love us back in as you say.

Is what JRM fears.

Richard_Tyndall said:

RoyalBlue said:

Casino_Royale said:

RoyalBlue said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

RoyalBlue said:

TOPPING said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Got to say I really can't get worked up about the ECJ control during the 2 year transition period. If that is what it takes to get agreement so we can finally leave then I can live with it. It still means we are out by 2021 which is far better than I expected less than 2 years ago.

Four more years of possible events which could presage a GE, a Labour government, and staying in the single market. No wonder JRM is panicking.

This. Brexiteers must not assume that they have the luxury of 5-10 years to take us out in a leisurely fashion. It also wouldn't be politically viable.

This is where people like Richard North demonstrate their peerless understanding of the EU but pitiful grasp of politics in a democracy.

Whereas, for the reasons I have just given in my reply to Topping, you demonstrate a serious lack of understanding of the basic treaty requirements.

Bless. You really think the EU would reject making our membership of the single market permanent in exchange for continuing dollops of cash forever?

Guys. Don't make my mistake and start being very rude to each other.

I said the word bless. He said 'lack of understanding'. You said c***sucker.

I think we've got some way to go before we get to that level.

I have not taken offence and I hope today have not given any.

You most certainly have not

I really want you to be right but I'm concerned. I don't think maximum risk is now, but rather 2019-21 where we are still following Brussels' rules but are officially out. It would be very easy to be slipped back into to full membership by making that condition permanent IF a British government wanted it and made the necessary offer.

Of course, if we become a third country to the EEA in March 2019 then we're out for good. I agree there would be no realistic prospect of us returning.

RoyalBlue said:

I really want you to be right but I'm concerned. I don't think maximum risk is now, but rather 2019-21 where we are still following Brussels' rules but are officially out. It would be very easy to be slipped back into to full membership by making that condition permanent IF a British government wanted it and made the necessary offer.

If we're outside the EU in a holding pen, it would also be the perfect context in which to hold another Scottish independence referendum, and the EU could roll out the red carpet for them.

Richard_Tyndall said:

RoyalBlue said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Recidivist said:

SeanT said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Danny565 said:

Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Then what happens if Remain wins that? Do we have a third referendum?

Democracy demands the Brexit result be honoured.

People warned Brexit would be a clusterfeck.

Clusterfuck, what clusterfuck?

I agree (and have said on here) that the economic stats for 2017 are not encouraging, but we still have modest growth, record employment, manufacturing is vigorous, the £ has stabilised (albeit devalued).

I expect a recession soon, but a recession was on the cards anyway. It's been ten years since the last.

A clusterfuck is not guaranteed. We just need to accept leaving the EU is bloody hard and join EEA or EFTA for 5-10 years to minimise the damage, then have another think.

Sounds like a plan. We could be back in by 2024.

To repeat what I posted at the end of the last thread when TSE made the same suggestion.

Not a chance old chap. This is the same delusion shared by Williamglenn. Once we have left, whether on good or bad terms, antipathy towards the EU will only increase and the EU will continue to centralise whilst antagonising many of its members. Both of these are inevitable and mean we will never rejoin the EU.

Sorry but this deteriminism is probably exactly the same as what Remainers were saying after they won the 1975 referendum. Very little is truly inevitable in politics.

It is based on observation of the European Project over many years and their reaction to the UK leaving. They are already accelerating closer union and senior officials are already saying they want an end to the foot dragging over the Eurozone. The EU are incapable of not antagonising member states. It is what they do.

I don't agree that's what they do, but if it were you can't assume it would continue. Both Britain and Europe are bound to change. A few years of a weak pound up against a strong Euro might make the prospect of joining the Euro a lot more attractive for example. And if we get a dose of unemployment freedom of movement might look a lot more inviting. There might be some nostalgia for the days of Auf Wiedersehen Pet.

TheScreamingEagles said:

I am right in thinking Mrs May has just crossed one of Boris Johnson's red lines and he's supportive of that?

He's obviously read Marx...

"Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others."

Recidivist said:

I don't agree that's what they do, but if it were you can't assume it would continue. Both Britain and Europe are bound to change. A few years of a weak pound up against a strong Euro might make the prospect of joining the Euro a lot more attractive for example. And if we get a dose of unemployment freedom of movement might look a lot more inviting. There might be some nostalgia for the days of Auf Wiedersehen Pet.

You show a profound lack of understanding of why people object to Euro membership. It is not based on relative strength but on the feeling that by surrendering ones currency one is surrendering control. It is exactly this sort of misreading of public opinion by Europhiles that led to the Brexit win in the first place.

As predicted, the Austrian burkha ban's going well...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41559196

Personally, I don't find this very finny. They're plumbing the depths, but I guess someone's having a whale of a time.

JosiasJessop said:

As predicted, the Austrian burkha ban's going well...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41559196

Personally, I don't find this very finny. They're plumbing the depths, but I guess someone's having a whale of a time.

No porpoise whatsoever!

rcs1000 said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Recidivist said:

I don't agree that's what they do, but if it were you can't assume it would continue. Both Britain and Europe are bound to change. A few years of a weak pound up against a strong Euro might make the prospect of joining the Euro a lot more attractive for example. And if we get a dose of unemployment freedom of movement might look a lot more inviting. There might be some nostalgia for the days of Auf Wiedersehen Pet.

You show a profound lack of understanding of why people object to Euro membership. It is not based on relative strength but on the feeling that by surrendering ones currency one is surrendering control. It is exactly this sort of misreading of public opinion by Europhiles that led to the Brexit win in the first place.

Of course, if Ethereum scales in the way that its founders say it will, then the days of government controlled currencies may be numbered. We may be returning to the world pre about 1800, where the idea that the government could manipulate the value of the currency for its own narrow political ends would be regarded as absurd.

The Euro may have arrived just in time to go extinct.

JosiasJessop said:

As predicted, the Austrian burkha ban's going well...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41559196

Personally, I don't find this very finny. They're plumbing the depths, but I guess someone's having a whale of a time.

Sadly I notice that Denmark are expected to go the same way shortly as well. The majority of parties in the Parliament apparently support such a ban.

I am just popping in to say hello and also that I have never seen any Bladerunner film. Or any other sci-fi movie. Or Star Wars.

I know, I know: I haven’t lived. What can I be thinking? What have I been doing? Well, I can assure you I have been doing lots of lovely things.

For instance:

I did see ET in an open air cinema in Venice. That was lovely. And my rather gorgeous Italian date had tears in his eyes at the end, which made him even more irresistible.

Cyclefree said:

I am just popping in to say hello and also that I have never seen any Bladerunner film. Or any other sci-fi movie. Or Star Wars.

I thought you were a Lib Dem, but that's just Weird!

Casino_Royale said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Danny565 said:

Having been dead-against the idea, and arguing with some PBers "on my side" about it over the past 15 months, I have to say now that I do want a second referendum. And this time I wouldn't be seriously considering voting Leave for ages like I did last time.

Brexit is turning into a clusterfuck of epic proportions.

Then what happens if Remain wins that? Do we have a third referendum?

Democracy demands the Brexit result be honoured.

People were warned Brexit would be a clusterfeck, they still voted for it.

Maybe calm down, just a little bit.

It's been very tetchy here today. I reacted, and then overreacted. I include myself in that. So, there: I'm sorry. My bad.

But, it would be nice if we could just "talk" on here without telling each other to go f*ck ourselves, or cheering on a clusterf*ck, or resigning ourselves to a clusterf*ck, or embracing a clusterf*ck, or somehow wanting a clusterf*ck to f*ck over those we really want to just get f*cked.

It's not that bad.

You are Richard Mottram and I claim my £5

Cyclefree said:

I am just popping in to say hello and also that I have never seen any Bladerunner film. Or any other sci-fi movie. Or Star Wars.

I know, I know: I haven’t lived. What can I be thinking? What have I been doing? Well, I can assure you I have been doing lots of lovely things.

For instance:

I did see ET in an open air cinema in Venice. That was lovely. And my rather gorgeous Italian date had tears in his eyes at the end, which made him even more irresistible.

Apparently one of the best cinematic experiences to be had this year is in Manchester where various films are being shown with live orchestral accompaniment in place of the scores. A friend recently went to see La La Land done in this way. Not a film he would otherwise have watched but apparently transformed by the live score.

Cyclefree said:

I am just popping in to say hello and also that I have never seen any Bladerunner film. Or any other sci-fi movie. Or Star Wars.

I know, I know: I haven’t lived. What can I be thinking? What have I been doing? Well, I can assure you I have been doing lots of lovely things.

For instance:

I did see ET in an open air cinema in Venice. That was lovely. And my rather gorgeous Italian date had tears in his eyes at the end, which made him even more irresistible.

There is plenty of bad SciFi, but the best films are not just special effects and dodgy costumes. They are a genre to explore themes and ideas without the constraints of earthly mundanity.

I particularly like the orginal "Invasion of the Bodysnatchers", for example as an exploration of cold war paranoia.

foxinsoxuk said:

Cyclefree said:

I am just popping in to say hello and also that I have never seen any Bladerunner film. Or any other sci-fi movie. Or Star Wars.

I know, I know: I haven’t lived. What can I be thinking? What have I been doing? Well, I can assure you I have been doing lots of lovely things.

For instance:

I did see ET in an open air cinema in Venice. That was lovely. And my rather gorgeous Italian date had tears in his eyes at the end, which made him even more irresistible.

There is plenty of bad SciFi, but the best films are not just special effects and dodgy costumes. They are a genre to explore themes and ideas without the constraints of earthly mundanity.

I particularly like the orginal "Invasion of the Bodysnatchers", for example as an exploration of cold war paranoia.

That is what impresses me so much about both Bladerunner films. Whilst of course using Sci-Fi as the medium, in fact both films are actually about what it means to be human, how we define humanity and what part memory, empathy and the desire to exist play in being human. They are so much more than just 'Sci-Fi' films.

https://twitter.com/bbchelenalee/status/917491880283262978

"Braced for a no deal bexit"
At last.

Interestingly, if Scotland had beaten Slovenia to come 2nd in their group and make the play-offs, Ireland would now be the worst 2nd place team and have gone out despite winning tonight.

(Assuming Greece beat Gibraltar tomorrow to confirm their 2nd place).

Richard_Tyndall said:

dr_spyn said:

Noticed that Iceland qualified for World Cup, imagine a rematch against England next summer.

I am sure Scotland will be getting right behind their southern neighbours in that match.

Well I would be but I accept that might be a minority view.

geoffw said:

"Braced for a no deal bexit"
At last.

Just to clear up last night's fun: "Brexitter" is a play on Soft Cell's "Bedsitter".

https://twitter.com/bbcsport/status/917489354565718016

Lucky they are not genetically disadvantaged...

geoffw said:

"Braced for a no deal bexit"
At last.

Quite. Being ready for this is the only way a deal will ever be possible.

Philip_Thompson said:

Casino_Royale said:

What I got wrong is that I grossly underestimated how bitter it would get on both sides. I thought the vast majority of people really didn't give much of a toss about the EU, and would shrug their shoulders and accept it without much fuss if we did vote to Leave.

I was wrong. Perhaps that was always going to be the case in a close vote that chose to take the nuclear option, but I was still wrong. I admit, and accept that.

No you weren't.

The vast majority of people have accepted it. The issue now is that the small vocal minority now exists on both sides of the divide. Whereas previously only the sceptics were the angry vocal majority, there is now an angry vocal majority on the Remain side too.

Both angry vocal minorities are just that though. ~5% on either side (if that) are angry and loud, ~90% of the country has moved on.

Yes, I think this is probably it - most of the country has moved on and just wants the government of the day to get on with making the best of it.

What has taken me aback over the year is the sheer ferocity of the loyalty to the EU shown by the ultras. I didn't know they existed. I didn't know anyone could feel love for, let alone allegiance to, a bureacracy I regard as nothing more than meddlesome.

But while I voted leave, I've never seen msyelf as a headbanger. Had the vote gone the other way, I would have shrugged my shoulders, gone 'ah, that's democracy, at least I had my say' and gone on to think of other things.

Had we continued to remain in the EU, I would have simply regarded it in the same way as a distant villager in Dykanka might have viewed the court of the Russian Tsar - distant, dictatorial and bureaucratic, but an inevitible part of life, a burden to bear. But the idea that one might feel love and loyalty to these distant and alien overlords is still utterly alien to me.

The sheer strength of feeling for the EU by the ultras on the other side has surprised me. The last year has been something of an eye opener, to put it mildly.

DavidL said:

geoffw said:

"Braced for a no deal bexit"
At last.

Quite. Being ready for this is the only way a deal will ever be possible.

Frankly we should have started with a no deal strategy, after all that's the most disruptive outcome we need the most time to prepare for, and negotiated to work back from there. We've been negotiating back to front from the start.

Still at least somebody appears to have woken up and realised that No Deal is becoming more likely by the hour.

The next step is to cut short the negotiations if we can't make some progress by dates of our choosing, otherwise the EU will try to take it to the wire. 1 year before exit looks sensible to me, if we haven't made real progress by next spring announce that the talks are done, and prepare for hard Brexit in 2019.

Yes, most of the country has moved on.

But what the comments on this site show is that many people closely interested in politics haven't moved on.

Literally every single day, the vast majority of comments on every thread consist of both Brexit and Remain supporters going on and on and on and on regurgitating the same old points over and over and over and over again.

Richard_Nabavi said:

kyf_100 said:

The sheer strength of feeling for the EU by the ultras on the other side has surprised me. The last year has been something of an eye opener, to put it mildly.

Fair enough, but what about the sheer headbanging lunacy of those who can't accept a few months of continued ECJ oversight, the practical effect of which is the square root of b'all, but which would help a lot in smoothing the feathers of our EU friends as regards the transition?

Oh, I agree entirely. My view is if it took us 40 years to entangle ourselves in this mess, it may well take us 40 years to disentangle ourselves.

The good news for me is, whatever happens, the British people have given a firm 'non' to further integration - whether in the form of the single currency, an EU army, tax harmonisation, or any of the other things that might have been on the cards.

Even if we head for Brexit In Name Only it at least puts a halt on any further integration and demands a new democratic mandate for any further surrender of sovereignty. It is a halt to the salami slice tactics of the last thirty or more years.

I'm sure Williamglenn will be along any moment now to tell us how fantastic this is, because now the dispirited British people will surely vote in favour of the Euro and the Great Project once we've been broken on the wheel...

Richard_Nabavi said:

kyf_100 said:

The sheer strength of feeling for the EU by the ultras on the other side has surprised me. The last year has been something of an eye opener, to put it mildly.

Fair enough, but what about the sheer headbanging lunacy of those who can't accept a few months of continued ECJ oversight, the practical effect of which is the square root of b'all, but which would help a lot in smoothing the feathers of our EU friends as regards the transition?

Agree entirely.

Edit and I am normally considered a headbanger

https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/917501237108539395

https://twitter.com/bbchelenalee/status/917501677443436544