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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two years ago some Tories voted for Corbyn to become Labour leader to destroy the Labour party, you’ll never guess what happened next
Today is the second anniversary of Jeremy Corbyn becoming Labour leader, very few people could have imagined how things have turned out. Back in 2015 many observers, including myself, thought if Jeremy Corbyn led the Labour party at a general election, Labour would play the role of Alderaan to the Tory party’s Death Star. But at 10pm on June 8th 2017 all those perceptions changed.
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Labour exploited the one weakness of the Death Star, the TM (thermal manifold.... ahem).0
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Now they plan to build a new, bigger Death Star that will still use the TM until 2022...RobD said:Labour exploited the one weakness of the Death Star, the TM (thermal manifold.... ahem).
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Third! Like the SNP!
Well, it was hardly going to be "Labour Front Benchers" for Corbyn, was it?0 -
Ninth!0
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The question is, would Corbyn vote for Theresa May as Conservative leader?0
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I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.0
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I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.0 -
@spinthosewheels: Dennis Skinner should be loyal to his elected party leader......
@dizzy_thinks: Dennis Skinner ...... Basically a Tory Melt now I guess?0 -
Well that's simple - we just vote the EU government out....oh, so we have...RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.0 -
JC has an opportunity to change labour.
Should he create a party in his image it will be a major achievement and a Labour Party that is significantly different to the one he took over.
That may be good or bad for labour.0 -
I'm glad I refused to take part in the Tories for Corbyn movement.
Be careful what you wish for.0 -
Have they not suffered enough?
@AllieHBNews: Foreign Secretary @BorisJohnson is travelling to the Caribbean to visit British Overseas Territories devastated by #Irma.0 -
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.0 -
Why would surrendering part of our sovereign powers to a foreign body be codified in our constitution?FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
What you really mean is why aren't the political and legal obstacles to Leaving the EU insurmountable, as you wish they were.0 -
It depends on the changes allowed.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
Altering EU to UK or the name of an agency referred to so that it is relevant and a UK body not an EU body is sensible for the volume of changes required.
Changes to to essence, intent, scope or purpose of the Bill is not acceptable.0 -
She never said her powers were infallible. You are making a bad job of pathetic point scoring.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.0 -
It's a fundamental constitutional principle that the executive proposes and parliament disposes. A decent Constitution formalises that principle. The UK has an "unwritten" Constitution, which is a euphemism for saying that government and parliament can make it up as it goes all along. Ie it doesn't really have one.0
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However it has lasted many years without too many disasters or dictators.FF43 said:It's a fundamental constitutional principle that the executive proposes and parliament disposes. A decent Constitution formalises that principle. The UK has an "unwritten" Constitution, which is a euphemism for saying that government and parliament can make it up as it goes all along. Ie it doesn't really have one.
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Good morning, everyone.
I agree with the basic sentiment in the thread header, but would add the fundamental problem was entirely different. Labour MPs failed to understand their own electoral system. That's the prime cause of having the far left in charge of the Official Opposition right now.0 -
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
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I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.0 -
But you were happy to give the EU untrammelled powers in various competencies to make our laws for us, without the ability to ever vote out those with whom you disagreed?SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
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Not so much the system as the attitudes of their members. Most thought a left wing candidate was simply window dressing for the election, and would be roundly rejected as usual.Morris_Dancer said:Good morning, everyone.
I agree with the basic sentiment in the thread header, but would add the fundamental problem was entirely different. Labour MPs failed to understand their own electoral system. That's the prime cause of having the far left in charge of the Official Opposition right now.0 -
Nope.Mortimer said:
But you were happy to give the EU untrammelled powers in various competencies to make our laws for us, without the ability to ever vote out those with whom you disagreed?SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
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That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.0 -
Isn't the point that we have decided that we did not like the way that things were done in Brussels and that we want to do them better in the UK? The will of the British people was to take back control for themselves, wasn't it?RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
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Charles meant there was a pseudo constitution for squillionaires like him. Him and his elite chums do not need to worry about powers being taken away, they are the ones making it up.IanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.0 -
A surrender is the unwilling act of a defeated party. The UK never surrendered anything.Casino_Royale said:
Why would surrendering part of our sovereign powers to a foreign body be codified in our constitution?FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
What you really mean is why aren't the political and legal obstacles to Leaving the EU insurmountable, as you wish they were.
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Mr. B2, that's true, but also as silly as someone agreeing to a foursome and agreeing to let their other half choose the couple, then being upset when they choose an S&M pair and the individual ends up chained to a diagonal cross for six hours.
Don't leave yourself open to a possibility you really, really do not want.
Mr. Observer, debatable. Labour promised a referendum, instead, there was no vote and Brown threw away vetoes to sign Lisbon. Blair threw away half the rebate for nothing. Cameron's renegotiation was an utter failure, compounded by his soon-abandoned claim it was a good deal.
It reminds me a bit of excessive foreign aid. Something popular amongst the political class, less so amongst the electorate.0 -
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
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There's an analogy we can all relate to.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. B2, that's true, but also as silly as someone agreeing to a foursome and agreeing to let their other half choose the couple, then being upset when they choose an S&M pair and the individual ends up chained to a diagonal cross for six hours.
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I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.0 -
The Whitehall/Westminster system is broken.0
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Agreed.Jonathan said:The Whitehall/Westminster system is broken.
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That's ok then.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The powers are limited and the Govt are accountable.
If you dislike the outcome of the laws, you'll be able to change them if your lot get in.
Unlike the EU laws0 -
Mr. Jonathan, changing it is very difficult though, as every party would seek to profit.0
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Mr RT, that’s put far better, TBH!Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.0 -
Corbyn won with all three categories of members handsomely.
Tories4Corbyn made no difference to the overall outcome, but they did manage to contribute to the Labour party's coffers... For that they have my thanks.0 -
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The unwritten British constitution that was being debated down below relies heavily on precedent. The legislation that was put before the Commons last night is constitutionally significant for that reason. It frightens the life out of me.
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It sure is. Leaving the EU gives the UK an opportunity to have a constitutional convention and a complete rethink of the way things are organised currently. It won't happen, unfortunately.Jonathan said:The Whitehall/Westminster system is broken.
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If it wasn't difficult it wouldn't be worth doing.Morris_Dancer said:Mr. Jonathan, changing it is very difficult though, as every party would seek to profit.
What we have now is a system with a proven record of producing deeply flawed governments incapable of addressing the political, social and economic challenges we face.
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Don't the powers expire at midnight on Brexit?SouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
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I thought Jezza becoming PM was quite an exciting prospect but his betrayal over Brexit has left me shaken...
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I do not have a lot. The powers being granted to ministers are unprecedented. That is not taking back control.Mortimer said:
That's ok then.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The powers are limited and the Govt are accountable.
If you dislike the outcome of the laws, you'll be able to change them if your lot get in.
Unlike the EU laws
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If you take the position that all politicians are narcissists/egoists then a lot of what's been going on comes somewhat into focus.
The establishment of the EU gave a larger stage for politicians to strut and pose on thus feeding their egos and satisfying their need for self aggrandisement. Similarly, the larger the aid budget, the more opportunity to bask in foreign praise.
A perfect example of these behaviours is with Blair.
Very little of what politicians do on an international stage is for the direct benefit of their country,only themselves.0 -
Hats off to Mrs May and Mr Davis, they garnered a healthy majority to support an appalling Bill.
For anyone who harboured the thought that rather than face 'cliff-edge' Brexit politicians would draw back from the brink, forget it.0 -
So our constitution is highly centralised. Doesn't mean it doesn't existIanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.0 -
EU laws are set and can be amended in much the same way as UK laws. EU laws will continue to affect us after we have left, but we will lose the ability to influence them.Mortimer said:
That's ok then.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The powers are limited and the Govt are accountable.
If you dislike the outcome of the laws, you'll be able to change them if your lot get in.
Unlike the EU laws0 -
I see that the election to the Conference Arrangements Committee yesterday - which pitted two Momentum people against two incumbents backed by the traditional Labour right - was won by 2-1 by the Momentum team. This is a fairly obscure procedural election (it will help Corbyn's team in deciding what Conference debates) and I suspect turnout wasn't huge, but it's probably a bellwether as both sides canvassed heavily. Essentially Progress and Labour First need to build alliances with the centrists who still dominate the PLP and much of the membership - a straight "fight Momentum" platform is not a winning strategy, any more than "stop Corbyn" worked well for TM. At present, the centrist membership view is that Corbyn has earned another shot and not too many obstacles should be put in his way.rkrkrk said:Corbyn won with all three categories of members handsomely.
Tories4Corbyn made no difference to the overall outcome, but they did manage to contribute to the Labour party's coffers... For that they have my thanks.0 -
The remain left needs to grab hold of "take back control ' and come up with a radicall programme of reform. If we are out of the EU on the basis of democratic deficit, let's become a real functioning, enterprising and vibrant democracy.SouthamObserver said:
It sure is. Leaving the EU gives the UK an opportunity to have a constitutional convention and a complete rethink of the way things are organised currently. It won't happen, unfortunately.Jonathan said:The Whitehall/Westminster system is broken.
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The Act will create precedent. Future executives now have something to cite when they seek to grab more power and whip their MPs into backing them.CarlottaVance said:
Don't the powers expire at midnight on Brexit?SouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
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Burgon having a bit of a problem answering questions on strikes on the Today programme.
Ladies and gents, the future of the left. Guffaw.0 -
exiting prospect? jeeezGIN1138 said:I thought Jezza becoming PM was quite an exciting prospect but his betrayal over Brexit has left me shaken...
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There is very little constitutional constraint on a government with a majority. The idea of the unwritten constitution is romantic twaddle.Charles said:
So our constitution is highly centralised. Doesn't mean it doesn't existIanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.0 -
Tories4Corbyn was a Toby Young initiative, wasn't it? There's really not much more that needs to be said. It was a silly game, played by silly people, who have ended up making themselves look even sillier.rkrkrk said:Corbyn won with all three categories of members handsomely.
Tories4Corbyn made no difference to the overall outcome, but they did manage to contribute to the Labour party's coffers... For that they have my thanks.0 -
Agreed.Jonathan said:
The remain left needs to grab hold of "take back control ' and come up with a radicall programme of reform. If we are out of the EU on the basis of democratic deficit, let's become a real functioning, enterprising and vibrant democracy.SouthamObserver said:
It sure is. Leaving the EU gives the UK an opportunity to have a constitutional convention and a complete rethink of the way things are organised currently. It won't happen, unfortunately.Jonathan said:The Whitehall/Westminster system is broken.
0 -
Absolutely - next time we leave a proto superstate we should be carefulSouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The unwritten British constitution that was being debated down below relies heavily on precedent. The legislation that was put before the Commons last night is constitutionally significant for that reason. It frightens the life out of me.0 -
Indeed. Next time we're leaving the EU then similar powers might be needed.SouthamObserver said:
The Act will create precedent. Future executives now have something to cite when they seek to grab more power and whip their MPs into backing them.CarlottaVance said:
Don't the powers expire at midnight on Brexit?SouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
Oh, wait.....0 -
I'm sure your man Blair will be on it.Jonathan said:
The remain left needs to grab hold of "take back control ' and come up with a radicall programme of reform. If we are out of the EU on the basis of democratic deficit, let's become a real functioning, enterprising and vibrant democracy.SouthamObserver said:
It sure is. Leaving the EU gives the UK an opportunity to have a constitutional convention and a complete rethink of the way things are organised currently. It won't happen, unfortunately.Jonathan said:The Whitehall/Westminster system is broken.
And listened to by no-one....0 -
Did I hear right - that Labour MPs have voted to give Mrs May unprecedented powers?foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution. It's just not codified.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
The world is indeed upside down.0 -
Your faith in future politicians is touching. Naive. But touching.Charles said:
Absolutely - next time we leave a proto superstate we should be carefulSouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The unwritten British constitution that was being debated down below relies heavily on precedent. The legislation that was put before the Commons last night is constitutionally significant for that reason. It frightens the life out of me.0 -
For me the big takeaway of the CAC vote is that there remains a substantial anti-Corbyn rump in the Labour party - around 30% to 35% - that still needs to be purged.NickPalmer said:
I see that the election to the Conference Arrangements Committee yesterday - which pitted two Momentum people against two incumbents backed by the traditional Labour right - was won by 2-1 by the Momentum team. This is a fairly obscure procedural election (it will help Corbyn's team in deciding what Conference debates) and I suspect turnout wasn't huge, but it's probably a bellwether as both sides canvassed heavily. Essentially Progress and Labour First need to build alliances with the centrists who still dominate the PLP and much of the membership - a straight "fight Momentum" platform is not a winning strategy, any more than "stop Corbyn" worked well for TM. At present, the centrist membership view is that Corbyn has earned another shot and not too many obstacles should be put in his way.rkrkrk said:Corbyn won with all three categories of members handsomely.
Tories4Corbyn made no difference to the overall outcome, but they did manage to contribute to the Labour party's coffers... For that they have my thanks.
0 -
Precedent for when we leave the EU again and have to domesticate a lot of laws?SouthamObserver said:
The Act will create precedent. Future executives now have something to cite when they seek to grab more power and whip their MPs into backing them.CarlottaVance said:
Don't the powers expire at midnight on Brexit?SouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
Given they're called 'Henry VIII powers' don't you think they might have a bit of 'precedent' already?0 -
Blair can't lead it. But he might be the catalyst. Many people listen to him.Mortimer said:
I'm sure your man Blair will be on it.Jonathan said:
The remain left needs to grab hold of "take back control ' and come up with a radicall programme of reform. If we are out of the EU on the basis of democratic deficit, let's become a real functioning, enterprising and vibrant democracy.SouthamObserver said:
It sure is. Leaving the EU gives the UK an opportunity to have a constitutional convention and a complete rethink of the way things are organised currently. It won't happen, unfortunately.Jonathan said:The Whitehall/Westminster system is broken.
And listened to by no-one....0 -
I wonder if Tories for Corbyn has left its mark on certain centrist SLabbers? They appear to think Nats are going to spend £12 to usher in the Corbynite candidate as SLab leader. They are of course ignoring the fact that most of us want their established duffer to take over the reins.0
-
I guess I can throw my degree in Constitutional Government in the bin then?Jonathan said:
There is very little constitutional constraint on a government with a majority. The idea of the unwritten constitution is romantic twaddle.Charles said:
So our constitution is highly centralised. Doesn't mean it doesn't existIanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
(Hailsham's Dimbleby Lecture is worth reading if you haven't already)0 -
Income tax was a temporary measure to pay for a war. Who knows what crises might emerge later where this bill might be abused.CarlottaVance said:
Precedent for when we leave the EU again and have to domesticate a lot of laws?SouthamObserver said:
The Act will create precedent. Future executives now have something to cite when they seek to grab more power and whip their MPs into backing them.CarlottaVance said:
Don't the powers expire at midnight on Brexit?SouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
Given they're called 'Henry VIII powers' don't you think they might have a bit of 'precedent' already?
0 -
Nope - precedent for a government being able to decide that a situation is such that the messy process of having Parliament scrutinise its activities essentially needs to be suspended.CarlottaVance said:
Precedent for when we leave the EU again and have to domesticate a lot of laws?SouthamObserver said:
The Act will create precedent. Future executives now have something to cite when they seek to grab more power and whip their MPs into backing them.CarlottaVance said:
Don't the powers expire at midnight on Brexit?SouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
Given they're called 'Henry VIII powers' don't you think they might have a bit of 'precedent' already?
0 -
Outcomes matter not process. Politicians are processJonathan said:
Your faith in future politicians is touching. Naive. But touching.Charles said:
Absolutely - next time we leave a proto superstate we should be carefulSouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The unwritten British constitution that was being debated down below relies heavily on precedent. The legislation that was put before the Commons last night is constitutionally significant for that reason. It frightens the life out of me.0 -
Don't worry Momentum will be on that soon enough.SouthamObserver said:
For me the big takeaway of the CAC vote is that there remains a substantial anti-Corbyn rump in the Labour party - around 30% to 35% - that still needs to be purged.NickPalmer said:
I see that the election to the Conference Arrangements Committee yesterday - which pitted two Momentum people against two incumbents backed by the traditional Labour right - was won by 2-1 by the Momentum team. This is a fairly obscure procedural election (it will help Corbyn's team in deciding what Conference debates) and I suspect turnout wasn't huge, but it's probably a bellwether as both sides canvassed heavily. Essentially Progress and Labour First need to build alliances with the centrists who still dominate the PLP and much of the membership - a straight "fight Momentum" platform is not a winning strategy, any more than "stop Corbyn" worked well for TM. At present, the centrist membership view is that Corbyn has earned another shot and not too many obstacles should be put in his way.rkrkrk said:Corbyn won with all three categories of members handsomely.
Tories4Corbyn made no difference to the overall outcome, but they did manage to contribute to the Labour party's coffers... For that they have my thanks.0 -
Why does it have to involve leaving a proto superstate?Charles said:
Absolutely - next time we leave a proto superstate we should be carefulSouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The unwritten British constitution that was being debated down below relies heavily on precedent. The legislation that was put before the Commons last night is constitutionally significant for that reason. It frightens the life out of me.
0 -
Had Burnham won the Labour leadership in 2015 he may even have won in 2017 or at least won most seats unlike Corbyn.
Corbyn was good at consolidating the centre left behind him squeezing the LDs, the Greens and the SNP in Labour's favour and even winning some left-wing Eurosceptic who had voted for UKIP.
However he also United the right and much of the centre against him and the Tories got 42% of the vote as a result, their highest voteshare for 25 years despite a hapless Tory vote. Burnham may have won a few more Tory votes, after all in Mau he even won Trafford in his Greater Manchester Mayoral bid and Trafford still has a Tory council and in 2015 he polled far better with Tory voters as to who they wanted to succeed Ed Miliband than Corbyn while also polling well with Labour voters (as opposed to Labour members who made him a distant second after Corbyn, though it would have been closer had preferences been included).0 -
Read it years ago, but well worth a reread. Yes stick it in the bin. Let's come up with something better than this failed settlement.Charles said:
I guess I can throw my degree in Constitutional Government in the bin then?Jonathan said:
There is very little constitutional constraint on a government with a majority. The idea of the unwritten constitution is romantic twaddle.Charles said:
So our constitution is highly centralised. Doesn't mean it doesn't existIanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
(Hailsham's Dimbleby Lecture is worth reading if you haven't already)0 -
The ends justify the means?Charles said:
Outcomes matter not process. Politicians are processJonathan said:
Your faith in future politicians is touching. Naive. But touching.Charles said:
Absolutely - next time we leave a proto superstate we should be carefulSouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The unwritten British constitution that was being debated down below relies heavily on precedent. The legislation that was put before the Commons last night is constitutionally significant for that reason. It frightens the life out of me.0 -
The Scottish Parliament, Welsh and Northern Irish Assemblies can also be abolished pretty swiftly because of parliamentary sovereignty although in reality they won't.IanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
The principle that Parliamentis sovereign and no Parliament can bind its successors means constitutions have less effect in the UK0 -
If Burnham had won we probably would have had Brexit, and Cameron would still have been PM, who knows what would have happened.HYUFD said:Had Burnham won the Labour leadership in 2015 he may even have won in 2017 or at least won most seats unlike Corbyn.
0 -
It was OK for Mussolini to kill and lock up political opponents because he made the trains runs on time.Charles said:
Outcomes matter not process. Politicians are processJonathan said:
Your faith in future politicians is touching. Naive. But touching.Charles said:
Absolutely - next time we leave a proto superstate we should be carefulSouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The unwritten British constitution that was being debated down below relies heavily on precedent. The legislation that was put before the Commons last night is constitutionally significant for that reason. It frightens the life out of me.
0 -
Slates fuel party division and should be banned. Why should members have to pick a side?NickPalmer said:
I see that the election to the Conference Arrangements Committee yesterday - which pitted two Momentum people against two incumbents backed by the traditional Labour right - was won by 2-1 by the Momentum team. This is a fairly obscure procedural election (it will help Corbyn's team in deciding what Conference debates) and I suspect turnout wasn't huge, but it's probably a bellwether as both sides canvassed heavily. Essentially Progress and Labour First need to build alliances with the centrists who still dominate the PLP and much of the membership - a straight "fight Momentum" platform is not a winning strategy, any more than "stop Corbyn" worked well for TM. At present, the centrist membership view is that Corbyn has earned another shot and not too many obstacles should be put in his way.rkrkrk said:Corbyn won with all three categories of members handsomely.
Tories4Corbyn made no difference to the overall outcome, but they did manage to contribute to the Labour party's coffers... For that they have my thanks.0 -
If we had had Brexit Cameron would still have resigned so it would still likely have been Burnham v MaySlackbladder said:
If Burnham had won we probably would have had Brexit, and Cameron would still have been PM, who knows what would have happened.HYUFD said:Had Burnham won the Labour leadership in 2015 he may even have won in 2017 or at least won most seats unlike Corbyn.
0 -
Islington worst place in the UK for women to live
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/worst-place-in-the-uk-for-women-to-live-revealed-by-study/ar-AArJPCq?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartanntp0 -
@ExcelPope: Brexit: The belief that my kids can convert my car into a Ferrari.
The Repeal Bill: The angle-grinder they said they needed.0 -
Because that is how precedent works.SouthamObserver said:
Why does it have to involve leaving a proto superstate?Charles said:
Absolutely - next time we leave a proto superstate we should be carefulSouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The unwritten British constitution that was being debated down below relies heavily on precedent. The legislation that was put before the Commons last night is constitutionally significant for that reason. It frightens the life out of me.0 -
Sorry, I meant probably wouldn't have had Brexit I mean. Burnham would have actually campagined to stay in.HYUFD said:
If we had had Brexit Cameron would still have resigned so it would still likely have been Burnham v MaySlackbladder said:
If Burnham had won we probably would have had Brexit, and Cameron would still have been PM, who knows what would have happened.HYUFD said:Had Burnham won the Labour leadership in 2015 he may even have won in 2017 or at least won most seats unlike Corbyn.
0 -
Macron strike day - unions hit the streets in France
http://www.lefigaro.fr/conjoncture/2017/09/12/20002-20170912LIVWWW00051-reforme-code-travail-emmanuel-macron-syndicats-salaries-patronat-cgt-indemnites-licenciements-negociations.php0 -
Even Burnham was talking about immigration concerns and even Corbyn backed Remain, Labour Leave voters in the North and Midlands would still have voted Leave I expect because they were sending a message on immigrationSlackbladder said:
Sorry, I meant probably wouldn't have had Brexit I mean. Burnham would have actually campagined to stay in.HYUFD said:
If we had had Brexit Cameron would still have resigned so it would still likely have been Burnham v MaySlackbladder said:
If Burnham had won we probably would have had Brexit, and Cameron would still have been PM, who knows what would have happened.HYUFD said:Had Burnham won the Labour leadership in 2015 he may even have won in 2017 or at least won most seats unlike Corbyn.
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The big difference surely would have been that half (at least) of the Labour Front Bench wouldn’t have resigned every month.Slackbladder said:
If Burnham had won we probably would have had Brexit, and Cameron would still have been PM, who knows what would have happened.HYUFD said:Had Burnham won the Labour leadership in 2015 he may even have won in 2017 or at least won most seats unlike Corbyn.
0 -
lolScott_P said:@ExcelPope: Brexit: The belief that my kids can convert my car into a Ferrari.
The Repeal Bill: The angle-grinder they said they needed.
Top quality ScottnPasting there.0 -
Am I alone in thinking the Lords will block this Bill and its Henry VIII power-grab stuff?Jonathan said:
Read it years ago, but well worth a reread. Yes stick it in the bin. Let's come up with something better than this failed settlement.Charles said:
I guess I can throw my degree in Constitutional Government in the bin then?Jonathan said:
There is very little constitutional constraint on a government with a majority. The idea of the unwritten constitution is romantic twaddle.Charles said:
So our constitution is highly centralised. Doesn't mean it doesn't existIanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
(Hailsham's Dimbleby Lecture is worth reading if you haven't already)
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But isn`t the point that the government has suddenly become UNaccountble?Mortimer said:
That's ok then.SouthamObserver said:Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.
The powers are limited and the Govt are accountable.
If you dislike the outcome of the laws, you'll be able to change them if your lot get in. .....0 -
One union, isn't it?Alanbrooke said:
Macron strike day - unions hit the streets in France
http://www.lefigaro.fr/conjoncture/2017/09/12/20002-20170912LIVWWW00051-reforme-code-travail-emmanuel-macron-syndicats-salaries-patronat-cgt-indemnites-licenciements-negociations.php
0 -
The next great Remain hope? The previous ones all came good, right?rottenborough said:
Am I alone in thinking the Lords will block this Bill and its Henry VIII power-grab stuff?Jonathan said:
Read it years ago, but well worth a reread. Yes stick it in the bin. Let's come up with something better than this failed settlement.Charles said:
I guess I can throw my degree in Constitutional Government in the bin then?Jonathan said:
There is very little constitutional constraint on a government with a majority. The idea of the unwritten constitution is romantic twaddle.Charles said:
So our constitution is highly centralised. Doesn't mean it doesn't existIanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
(Hailsham's Dimbleby Lecture is worth reading if you haven't already)0 -
I don't disagree - personally I favour a federal system plus carving the executive out if ParliamentJonathan said:
Read it years ago, but well worth a reread. Yes stick it in the bin. Let's come up with something better than this failed settlement.Charles said:
I guess I can throw my degree in Constitutional Government in the bin then?Jonathan said:
There is very little constitutional constraint on a government with a majority. The idea of the unwritten constitution is romantic twaddle.Charles said:
So our constitution is highly centralised. Doesn't mean it doesn't existIanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
(Hailsham's Dimbleby Lecture is worth reading if you haven't already)0 -
No, it isn't. Henry VIII did not take the powers he did in order to leave the EU.Mortimer said:
Because that is how precedent works.SouthamObserver said:
Why does it have to involve leaving a proto superstate?Charles said:
Absolutely - next time we leave a proto superstate we should be carefulSouthamObserver said:
A fair point. But I wonder how many on here would be relaxed about Corbyn, McDonnell etc having the unregulated power that the current government is proposing for itself.Richard_Tyndall said:
I think the argument that has more power is that you and I would not even like to see these powers given to people we wholeheartedly agreed with. There are basic principles that go beyond party politics and this is definitely one of them.SouthamObserver said:
Fair enough. My view of taking back control is that it does not involve giving unlimited, unaccountable power to serial liars and fantasists who were not able to win a majority at the last general election.Pulpstar said:
I think so.SouthamObserver said:
Yep - trust Theresa, the PM who promised no general election before calling one; and trust David, the cabinet minister who thought the UK could do an FTA with Germany; or trust Boris, sacked by the Times for lying; then there's Liam, who has been known to move in mysterious ways with his chum Mr Werrity; not to mention Michael, who warned us Turkey was on the verge of joining the EU.foxinsoxuk said:
Its not the powers as such, it is the ability to amend them without democratic scrutiny.RobD said:
I'm greatly amused that there was zero fuss when the EU was exercising these powers. Heaven forbid the UK government wields them.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
Trust me says Theresa, after all, my judgement is infallible.
I cannot see the problem with giving these and other ministers virtually unlimited power to legislate as they wish with no Parliamentary scrutiny. We can trust them. Can't we.
The unwritten British constitution that was being debated down below relies heavily on precedent. The legislation that was put before the Commons last night is constitutionally significant for that reason. It frightens the life out of me.
0 -
I don't disagree - personally I favour a federal system plus carving the executive out of the legislatureJonathan said:
Read it years ago, but well worth a reread. Yes stick it in the bin. Let's come up with something better than this failed settlement.Charles said:
I guess I can throw my degree in Constitutional Government in the bin then?Jonathan said:
There is very little constitutional constraint on a government with a majority. The idea of the unwritten constitution is romantic twaddle.Charles said:
So our constitution is highly centralised. Doesn't mean it doesn't existIanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
(Hailsham's Dimbleby Lecture is worth reading if you haven't already)
On your other point, no the ends don't justify the means. But politicians are largely irrelevant to outcomes. My mentor served in government for 40 years (and at cabinet rank for 30) and said that in that time there were only 3 important decisions made - in one there was no choice, in one the best course was obvious and on one he had no influence.0 -
Actually I was referring more to the way its being done i.e. use of Henry power. They may force some kind of amendment on this side of it.Mortimer said:
The next great Remain hope? The previous ones all came good, right?rottenborough said:
Am I alone in thinking the Lords will block this Bill and its Henry VIII power-grab stuff?Jonathan said:
Read it years ago, but well worth a reread. Yes stick it in the bin. Let's come up with something better than this failed settlement.Charles said:
I guess I can throw my degree in Constitutional Government in the bin then?Jonathan said:
There is very little constitutional constraint on a government with a majority. The idea of the unwritten constitution is romantic twaddle.Charles said:
So our constitution is highly centralised. Doesn't mean it doesn't existIanB2 said:
That's just nonsense. To take just one example, in most democracies local government has established rights and powers granted to it by the constitution. In the UK it has none; local councils can be reorganised or abolished and their powers taken away or fettered by central government according to its whim.Charles said:
We do have a proper Constitution.FF43 said:I presume if the UK had a proper Constitution, like most respectable countries, that the EU Withdrawal Bill would be unconstitutional.
It's just not codified.
(Hailsham's Dimbleby Lecture is worth reading if you haven't already)
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Corbyn, young Cardinals vote for old dopes. Who is going to succeed the old fool?0
This discussion has been closed.