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I haven't been shy of criticising her either but she doesn't deserve all of the opprobrium heaped on her, and I don't share the outright hatred for her that some do.Jonathan said:
Satire lives. Wonderful stuff. You should send that in to Private Eye.CornishJohn said:
I disagree. It was clear she felt she had let her party down. She has been loyal to it since she was 14. As Casino_Royale says, she is proving to be much more human and relatable since the election.Jonathan said:
She got greedy. She gambled. She lost. She cried for herself.Casino_Royale said:Irony is that if she was this human during the campaign she might not have lost her majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40592808
Not endearing in the slightest. Quite the opposite.
It began with the thoroughly decent and humble talk to the parliamentary Conservative Party. She admitted her mistakes, apologised and took responsibility for them. It was something I can not imagine someone like George Osborne or Gordon Brown ever doing. She then admitted her way of governing left people excluded, so she removed her top two aides, and brought back exclusions like Gove and Raab into the government. Then she had a very successful G20 summit, getting the US President to commit to a major trade deal, having the Chinese Premier salute the golden age in UK relations and holding positive trade talks with Japan. Now she has followed up with an effective, open and honest interview with the BBC.
As she said, she got the party into the mess and now she is working hard at getting us out of it. Women at the top have to be twice as resilient to the additional nastiness they face. She is showing once again the character that has served her well. It's not what mistakes you make, it is how you respond to them.0 -
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...0 -
You don't have to hate a politician to be suspicious of soft focus interviews and tears.Casino_Royale said:
I haven't been shy of criticising her either but she doesn't deserve all of the opprobrium heaped on her, and I don't share the outright hatred for her that some do.Jonathan said:
Satire lives. Wonderful stuff. You should send that in to Private Eye.CornishJohn said:
I disagree. It was clear she felt she had let her party down. She has been loyal to it since she was 14. As Casino_Royale says, she is proving to be much more human and relatable since the election.Jonathan said:
She got greedy. She gambled. She lost. She cried for herself.Casino_Royale said:Irony is that if she was this human during the campaign she might not have lost her majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40592808
Not endearing in the slightest. Quite the opposite.
It began with the thoroughly decent and humble talk to the parliamentary Conservative Party. She admitted her mistakes, apologised and took responsibility for them. It was something I can not imagine someone like George Osborne or Gordon Brown ever doing. She then admitted her way of governing left people excluded, so she removed her top two aides, and brought back exclusions like Gove and Raab into the government. Then she had a very successful G20 summit, getting the US President to commit to a major trade deal, having the Chinese Premier salute the golden age in UK relations and holding positive trade talks with Japan. Now she has followed up with an effective, open and honest interview with the BBC.
As she said, she got the party into the mess and now she is working hard at getting us out of it. Women at the top have to be twice as resilient to the additional nastiness they face. She is showing once again the character that has served her well. It's not what mistakes you make, it is how you respond to them.0 -
The Tory masterminds think that the end always justifies the means. So they flout the rules. I think we need to respect the rules, and try to keep society together, as far as we can.Casino_Royale said:
Even if i agreed with your point on the EU ref, which i don't, it makes no sense in applying it to GE2015 and GE2017.PClipp said:
It`s not in the least effective in terms of persuading the other half of the population of the legitimacy of the decision, though. It is effective only in terms of seeming to legitimise a power-grab, which is what we are talking about in the case of the EU Referendum. And of the 2017 General Election. And of the 2015 General Election too.Casino_Royale said:
Precisely. Cummings holds all political campaigning in contempt so doesn't care how it's done, so long as it's effective.Charles said:
Cummings explained it I thought: they cynically decided that using £350m encouraged people to criticise the figure and keep it in the news.
Effectively, Mrs May is a usurper.
Domination versus cooperation.0 -
poor CherieJonathan said:
You don't have to hate a politician to be suspicious of soft focus interviews and tears.Casino_Royale said:
I haven't been shy of criticising her either but she doesn't deserve all of the opprobrium heaped on her, and I don't share the outright hatred for her that some do.Jonathan said:
Satire lives. Wonderful stuff. You should send that in to Private Eye.CornishJohn said:
I disagree. It was clear she felt she had let her party down. She has been loyal to it since she was 14. As Casino_Royale says, she is proving to be much more human and relatable since the election.Jonathan said:
She got greedy. She gambled. She lost. She cried for herself.Casino_Royale said:Irony is that if she was this human during the campaign she might not have lost her majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40592808
Not endearing in the slightest. Quite the opposite.
It began with the thoroughly decent and humble talk to the parliamentary Conservative Party. She admitted her mistakes, apologised and took responsibility for them. It was something I can not imagine someone like George Osborne or Gordon Brown ever doing. She then admitted her way of governing left people excluded, so she removed her top two aides, and brought back exclusions like Gove and Raab into the government. Then she had a very successful G20 summit, getting the US President to commit to a major trade deal, having the Chinese Premier salute the golden age in UK relations and holding positive trade talks with Japan. Now she has followed up with an effective, open and honest interview with the BBC.
As she said, she got the party into the mess and now she is working hard at getting us out of it. Women at the top have to be twice as resilient to the additional nastiness they face. She is showing once again the character that has served her well. It's not what mistakes you make, it is how you respond to them.0 -
Both sides are as bad as each other sadlyFF43 said:On reflection the threat of a second referendum might keep Brexiteers on their toes and up their game somewhat. They really haven't done a good job of winning hearts and minds. Calling the unconvinced Remoaners, traitors, saboteurs, citizens of nowhere etc doesn't cut it. And maybe they could come up with just one practical benefit of all the huge disruption we're going to go through....
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Says the man who this morning put Blair in the top rank of British PMs. Chortle.Jonathan said:
Satire lives. Wonderful stuff. You should send that in to Private Eye.CornishJohn said:
I disagree. It was clear she felt she had let her party down. She has been loyal to it since she was 14. As Casino_Royale says, she is proving to be much more human and relatable since the election.Jonathan said:
She got greedy. She gambled. She lost. She cried for herself.Casino_Royale said:Irony is that if she was this human during the campaign she might not have lost her majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40592808
Not endearing in the slightest. Quite the opposite.
It began with the thoroughly decent and humble talk to the parliamentary Conservative Party. She admitted her mistakes, apologised and took responsibility for them. It was something I can not imagine someone like George Osborne or Gordon Brown ever doing. She then admitted her way of governing left people excluded, so she removed her top two aides, and brought back exclusions like Gove and Raab into the government. Then she had a very successful G20 summit, getting the US President to commit to a major trade deal, having the Chinese Premier salute the golden age in UK relations and holding positive trade talks with Japan. Now she has followed up with an effective, open and honest interview with the BBC.
As she said, she got the party into the mess and now she is working hard at getting us out of it. Women at the top have to be twice as resilient to the additional nastiness they face. She is showing once again the character that has served her well. It's not what mistakes you make, it is how you respond to them.0 -
"Britain is incapable of managing Brexit and calamity will follow"
https://www.ft.com/content/bf0025aa-6720-11e7-8526-7b38dcaef6140 -
worse still.. he rates Brown.. the idiot who nearly destroyed the economy.Mortimer said:
Says the man who this morning put Blair in the top rank of British PMs. Chortle.Jonathan said:
Satire lives. Wonderful stuff. You should send that in to Private Eye.CornishJohn said:
I disagree. It was clear she felt she had let her party down. She has been loyal to it since she was 14. As Casino_Royale says, she is proving to be much more human and relatable since the election.Jonathan said:
She got greedy. She gambled. She lost. She cried for herself.Casino_Royale said:Irony is that if she was this human during the campaign she might not have lost her majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40592808
Not endearing in the slightest. Quite the opposite.
It began with the thoroughly decent and humble talk to the parliamentary Conservative Party. She admitted her mistakes, apologised and took responsibility for them. It was something I can not imagine someone like George Osborne or Gordon Brown ever doing. She then admitted her way of governing left people excluded, so she removed her top two aides, and brought back exclusions like Gove and Raab into the government. Then she had a very successful G20 summit, getting the US President to commit to a major trade deal, having the Chinese Premier salute the golden age in UK relations and holding positive trade talks with Japan. Now she has followed up with an effective, open and honest interview with the BBC.
As she said, she got the party into the mess and now she is working hard at getting us out of it. Women at the top have to be twice as resilient to the additional nastiness they face. She is showing once again the character that has served her well. It's not what mistakes you make, it is how you respond to them.0 -
sounds like we never should have got in to the eu in the first placewilliamglenn said:"Britain is incapable of managing Brexit and calamity will follow"
https://www.ft.com/content/bf0025aa-6720-11e7-8526-7b38dcaef614
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Was in group that won 100+ majority. Whatever you think of him he is in the select group that did that.Mortimer said:
Says the man who this morning put Blair in the top rank of British PMs. Chortle.Jonathan said:
Satire lives. Wonderful stuff. You should send that in to Private Eye.CornishJohn said:
I disagree. It was clear she felt she had let her party down. She has been loyal to it since she was 14. As Casino_Royale says, she is proving to be much more human and relatable since the election.Jonathan said:
She got greedy. She gambled. She lost. She cried for herself.Casino_Royale said:Irony is that if she was this human during the campaign she might not have lost her majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40592808
Not endearing in the slightest. Quite the opposite.
It began with the thoroughly decent and humble talk to the parliamentary Conservative Party. She admitted her mistakes, apologised and took responsibility for them. It was something I can not imagine someone like George Osborne or Gordon Brown ever doing. She then admitted her way of governing left people excluded, so she removed her top two aides, and brought back exclusions like Gove and Raab into the government. Then she had a very successful G20 summit, getting the US President to commit to a major trade deal, having the Chinese Premier salute the golden age in UK relations and holding positive trade talks with Japan. Now she has followed up with an effective, open and honest interview with the BBC.
As she said, she got the party into the mess and now she is working hard at getting us out of it. Women at the top have to be twice as resilient to the additional nastiness they face. She is showing once again the character that has served her well. It's not what mistakes you make, it is how you respond to them.0 -
Most Trusts are in deficit, so every penny that they recover can go directly into patient care in the same organisation.nunuone said:
Can it be true? I'd be shocked if the NHS bothered. Its not their money.rcs1000 said:
According to this link - http://news.sky.com/story/nhs-scandal-as-uk-pays-millions-to-eu-10189381 - we receive £50m out of £670m spent on EU citizens.CornishJohn said:How much would it be if it included the health treatment in the NHS by EU nationals that we try to reclaim, but never arrives?
But I presume there will also be other EU countries that do not bill us properly for healthcare given to UK citizens abroad.
Edit to add: reading the story properly, it seems the NHS is terrible at submitting bills. Can this be true?
The problem is getting people to cough up! Free at the point of use, with bill afterwards is different to pay then reclaim.0 -
I placed him in the group who as tail enders lost an election after a period in office.SquareRoot said:
worse still.. he rates Brown.. the idiot who nearly destroyed the economy.Mortimer said:
Says the man who this morning put Blair in the top rank of British PMs. Chortle.Jonathan said:
Satire lives. Wonderful stuff. You should send that in to Private Eye.CornishJohn said:
I disagree. It was clear she felt she had let her party down. She has been loyal to it since she was 14. As Casino_Royale says, she is proving to be much more human and relatable since the election.Jonathan said:
She got greedy. She gambled. She lost. She cried for herself.Casino_Royale said:Irony is that if she was this human during the campaign she might not have lost her majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40592808
Not endearing in the slightest. Quite the opposite.
It began with the thoroughly decent and humble talk to the parliamentary Conservative Party. She admitted her mistakes, apologised and took responsibility for them. It was something I can not imagine someone like George Osborne or Gordon Brown ever doing. She then admitted her way of governing left people excluded, so she removed her top two aides, and brought back exclusions like Gove and Raab into the government. Then she had a very successful G20 summit, getting the US President to commit to a major trade deal, having the Chinese Premier salute the golden age in UK relations and holding positive trade talks with Japan. Now she has followed up with an effective, open and honest interview with the BBC.
As she said, she got the party into the mess and now she is working hard at getting us out of it. Women at the top have to be twice as resilient to the additional nastiness they face. She is showing once again the character that has served her well. It's not what mistakes you make, it is how you respond to them.
Defeat in an election is better than having to resign after a major policy catastrophe like suez or EuRef.0 -
if only youd voted brexit youd have £350 million morefoxinsoxuk said:
Most Trusts are in deficit, so every penny that they recover can go directly into patient care in the same organisation.nunuone said:
Can it be true? I'd be shocked if the NHS bothered. Its not their money.rcs1000 said:
According to this link - http://news.sky.com/story/nhs-scandal-as-uk-pays-millions-to-eu-10189381 - we receive £50m out of £670m spent on EU citizens.CornishJohn said:How much would it be if it included the health treatment in the NHS by EU nationals that we try to reclaim, but never arrives?
But I presume there will also be other EU countries that do not bill us properly for healthcare given to UK citizens abroad.
Edit to add: reading the story properly, it seems the NHS is terrible at submitting bills. Can this be true?
The problem is getting people to cough up! Free at the point of use, with bill afterwards is different to pay then reclaim.
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The REMAIN side are still campaigning a year after they lost.RoyalBlue said:If anyone still thought the BBC was a credible media organisation:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40589510
The Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly do NOT have a veto over Great Repeal Bill. The Government can add a one-line clause stating that the bill takes effect notwithstanding any provisions of the Acts setting out the powers of the devolved assemblies.
The BBC is utterly opposed to Brexit. They will do everything they can to stop it.
The LEAVE campaign should restart as well.0 -
Diane James is completely barmy. In this statement she says that the UK media shouldn't print what Guy Verhofstadt says and that the EU is trying to create a two party system of Conservatives versus Socialists in every country.
https://twitter.com/dianejamesmep/status/8854477677615390720 -
donald and emmanuel - a friends reunion
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2017/07/13/01003-20170713ARTFIG00082-donald-trump-a-atterri-a-paris.php0 -
The "Tall Poppy Syndrome" is Australian/NZ patois " for a perceived tendency to discredit or disparage those who have achieved notable wealth or prominence in public life."
I think that means "takes the piss" or "piss-taker" in English.
Could this be a coded attack on certain Australians? Who could this possibly be,Don Bradman?0 -
Donald clearly digs Macrons bling.Alanbrooke said:
donald and emmanuel - a friends reunion
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international/2017/07/13/01003-20170713ARTFIG00082-donald-trump-a-atterri-a-paris.php0 -
Watching the Tour de France, I am amused by the medical car labeling. One of them has SKODA decals all over it, including 2 on the trunk at the back - one either side of the VW roundel.
The other has SKODA decals all over it, including 2 on the trunk at the back - one either side of the 4 interconnected AUDI rings.0 -
Actually it would suit the E.U to not have to deal with a plethora of different parties.williamglenn said:Diane James is completely barmy. In this statement she says that the UK media shouldn't print what Guy Verhofstadt says and that the EU is trying to create a two party system of Conservatives versus Socialists in every country.
https://twitter.com/dianejamesmep/status/885447767761539072
How much easier would it be for the E.U (and us) to negotiate with a UK that had a majority government.0 -
The PFI deals are proving to be what my union and many others said to Major and Blair,they are terrible value for money for the public and they distort health priority.Barts,Peterborough and the Norfolk & Norwich,to name a few,have contracts any determined government could buy out.Leaving the EU means there is no need to keep public spending "off the books" to keep within the EU 3% of GDPdeficit rule.There are a number of trusts facing service collapse and PFI is a considerable contributary factor to that.foxinsoxuk said:
Most Trusts are in deficit, so every penny that they recover can go directly into patient care in the same organisation.nunuone said:
Can it be true? I'd be shocked if the NHS bothered. Its not their money.rcs1000 said:
According to this link - http://news.sky.com/story/nhs-scandal-as-uk-pays-millions-to-eu-10189381 - we receive £50m out of £670m spent on EU citizens.CornishJohn said:How much would it be if it included the health treatment in the NHS by EU nationals that we try to reclaim, but never arrives?
But I presume there will also be other EU countries that do not bill us properly for healthcare given to UK citizens abroad.
Edit to add: reading the story properly, it seems the NHS is terrible at submitting bills. Can this be true?
The problem is getting people to cough up! Free at the point of use, with bill afterwards is different to pay then reclaim.
Put simply,PFI contracts need to be added to national debt on the basis of a say,50p in the pound buy-out.This would save the NHS and other public services £150 billion.The bankers behind the schemes need to get ready for a nice haircut.0 -
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.0 -
Partly agree. PFI-style schemes are a tool, not a necessity. There are times it makes sense to use them, and times it does not. In the case of hospitals, I believe there are some schemes that are successful (though I cannot remember where I read that!).volcanopete said:
The PFI deals are proving to be what my union and many others said to Major and Blair,they are terrible value for money for the public and they distort health priority.Barts,Peterborough and the Norfolk & Norwich,to name a few,have contracts any determined government could buy out.Leaving the EU means there is no need to keep public spending "off the books" to keep within the EU 3% of GDPdeficit rule.There are a number of trusts facing service collapse and PFI is a considerable contributary factor to that.foxinsoxuk said:
Most Trusts are in deficit, so every penny that they recover can go directly into patient care in the same organisation.nunuone said:
Can it be true? I'd be shocked if the NHS bothered. Its not their money.rcs1000 said:
According to this link - http://news.sky.com/story/nhs-scandal-as-uk-pays-millions-to-eu-10189381 - we receive £50m out of £670m spent on EU citizens.CornishJohn said:How much would it be if it included the health treatment in the NHS by EU nationals that we try to reclaim, but never arrives?
But I presume there will also be other EU countries that do not bill us properly for healthcare given to UK citizens abroad.
Edit to add: reading the story properly, it seems the NHS is terrible at submitting bills. Can this be true?
The problem is getting people to cough up! Free at the point of use, with bill afterwards is different to pay then reclaim.
Put simply,PFI contracts need to be added to national debt on the basis of a say,50p in the pound buy-out.This would save the NHS and other public services £150 billion.The bankers behind the schemes need to get ready for a nice haircut.
But generally I'd say the operational side of hospital buildings are too complex for such schemes to work well without common sense on all sides. And often the people making the decisions value money - or strictly following the contract - more than common sense.0 -
As Attlee might have said "Sorry, not up to it.". But, I don't hate someone because they aren't up to it.Casino_Royale said:
I haven't been shy of criticising her either but she doesn't deserve all of the opprobrium heaped on her, and I don't share the outright hatred for her that some do.Jonathan said:
Satire lives. Wonderful stuff. You should send that in to Private Eye.CornishJohn said:
I disagree. It was clear she felt she had let her party down. She has been loyal to it since she was 14. As Casino_Royale says, she is proving to be much more human and relatable since the election.Jonathan said:
She got greedy. She gambled. She lost. She cried for herself.Casino_Royale said:Irony is that if she was this human during the campaign she might not have lost her majority: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40592808
Not endearing in the slightest. Quite the opposite.
It began with the thoroughly decent and humble talk to the parliamentary Conservative Party. She admitted her mistakes, apologised and took responsibility for them. It was something I can not imagine someone like George Osborne or Gordon Brown ever doing. She then admitted her way of governing left people excluded, so she removed her top two aides, and brought back exclusions like Gove and Raab into the government. Then she had a very successful G20 summit, getting the US President to commit to a major trade deal, having the Chinese Premier salute the golden age in UK relations and holding positive trade talks with Japan. Now she has followed up with an effective, open and honest interview with the BBC.
As she said, she got the party into the mess and now she is working hard at getting us out of it. Women at the top have to be twice as resilient to the additional nastiness they face. She is showing once again the character that has served her well. It's not what mistakes you make, it is how you respond to them.0 -
It's a good point. UKIP dead. SNP going backwards. Nationalism, in its various flavours is on the wane from their recent zenith.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.
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This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.0 -
Another Conservative leader for whom an election didn't go well opined politics was a "rough trade" and Nick Clegg said that "if you live by the sword, you die by the sword".Casino_Royale said:
I haven't been shy of criticising her either but she doesn't deserve all of the opprobrium heaped on her, and I don't share the outright hatred for her that some do.
Political people should understand the need to take the rough with the jagged. I'm no fan of Theresa May and I would like her to admit she was wrong for calling the election but she won't. Those Conservative MPs who lost their seats and their jobs have far more reason to be aggrieved.
It's not a question of trying to elicit sympathy - she can't be that naive. Her behaviour toward those who didn't agree with her and the way she comported herself in the election campaign are for her to resolve - no one will be convinced by this "I'm only human after all, don't put the blame on me". The needless waste of time and money at a critical point in our country's history are something she will have to justify and the verdict of the electorate something she has to live with and understand.
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Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.0 -
They didn't vote for those challenges in a referendum. It would be nice if Brexit delivered a concrete benefit.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.
Hey ho.0 -
She literally called the election to crush her opponents. Hard Brexiteers, soft Brexiteers, Labour, citizens of everywhere, saboteurs, people she is bloody difficult to, whomsoever. Whatever the consequences of Corbyn being so close to power, at least the way he got there is funny.stodge said:
Another Conservative leader for whom an election didn't go well opined politics was a "rough trade" and Nick Clegg said that "if you live by the sword, you die by the sword".Casino_Royale said:
I haven't been shy of criticising her either but she doesn't deserve all of the opprobrium heaped on her, and I don't share the outright hatred for her that some do.
Political people should understand the need to take the rough with the jagged. I'm no fan of Theresa May and I would like her to admit she was wrong for calling the election but she won't. Those Conservative MPs who lost their seats and their jobs have far more reason to be aggrieved.
It's not a question of trying to elicit sympathy - she can't be that naive. Her behaviour toward those who didn't agree with her and the way she comported herself in the election campaign are for her to resolve - no one will be convinced by this "I'm only human after all, don't put the blame on me". The needless waste of time and money at a critical point in our country's history are something she will have to justify and the verdict of the electorate something she has to live with and understand.0 -
There have been times when the quality of political leadership has been far worse than it is now.Jonathan said:
Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.0 -
Indeed and we all have our limitations. Should she have acknowledged hers and walked on the Friday morning ? We'll probably never know. I do think she allowed the advice of fawning sycophants and those who thought they could "crush" Labour to override her inner caution.Sean_F said:
As Attlee might have said "Sorry, not up to it.". But, I don't hate someone because they aren't up to it.
Even now on here there are plenty who still seem willing to die in the ditch with her - or is that just loyalty ? However you toss the salad, the truth is the election diminished her politically.
Fine, she's discovered humility - kudos. That doesn't alter the fact of the language used before the election and the attitudes of her supporters to those who dared to question or criticise.
0 -
Had she walked on Friday morning, I think it would have been worse for both the Conservatives and the UK.stodge said:
Indeed and we all have our limitations. Should she have acknowledged hers and walked on the Friday morning ? We'll probably never know. I do think she allowed the advice of fawning sycophants and those who thought they could "crush" Labour to override her inner caution.Sean_F said:
As Attlee might have said "Sorry, not up to it.". But, I don't hate someone because they aren't up to it.
Even now on here there are plenty who still seem willing to die in the ditch with her - or is that just loyalty ? However you toss the salad, the truth is the election diminished her politically.
Fine, she's discovered humility - kudos. That doesn't alter the fact of the language used before the election and the attitudes of her supporters to those who dared to question or criticise.0 -
Harold Godwinson?Sean_F said:
There have been times when the quality of political leadership has been far worse than it is now.Jonathan said:
Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.0 -
Usually at a price, though.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.
I don't sense that people are in a price-paying mood right now. And I suspect many feel they were promised Brexit would be all good news.0 -
Britain has for the first time explicitly acknowledged it has financial obligations to the EU after Brexit, a move that is likely to avert a full-scale clash over the exit bill in talks next week.
In a written statement to parliament touching on a “financial settlement”, the government recognised on Thursday “that the UK has obligations to the EU . . . that will survive the UK’s withdrawal — and that these need to be resolved”.
The text, released by Joyce Anelay, a Brexit minister, was immediately seen by Brussels as a potentially important development. EU diplomats say the wording “goes further” than Theresa May’s previous reference to Britain being willing to reach a “fair settlement” of unspecified obligations.
https://twitter.com/robertshrimsley/status/8855855424942612480 -
Most of the Napoleonic War, the American War, Baldwin's government, most of the 1964/79 period.Jonathan said:
Harold Godwinson?Sean_F said:
There have been times when the quality of political leadership has been far worse than it is now.Jonathan said:
Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.0 -
The UK is indeed far more than its EU membership. But with backward-looking maniacs in charge and with backward-looking maniacs in opposition, Britain is set for a long period of decline.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.0 -
More recently than that.Jonathan said:
Harold Godwinson?Sean_F said:
There have been times when the quality of political leadership has been far worse than it is now.Jonathan said:
Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.
Tony Blair over Iraq, for example.0 -
You have a strange understanding of the term literally. She called the election because she thought it would have achieved a stronger majority, which would make it easier to pass the final Brexit deal through the Commons. She never said anything about "crushing", whatever you or others want to project on to her.EPG said:
She literally called the election to crush her opponents. Hard Brexiteers, soft Brexiteers, Labour, citizens of everywhere, saboteurs, people she is bloody difficult to, whomsoever. Whatever the consequences of Corbyn being so close to power, at least the way he got there is funny.stodge said:
Another Conservative leader for whom an election didn't go well opined politics was a "rough trade" and Nick Clegg said that "if you live by the sword, you die by the sword".Casino_Royale said:
I haven't been shy of criticising her either but she doesn't deserve all of the opprobrium heaped on her, and I don't share the outright hatred for her that some do.
Political people should understand the need to take the rough with the jagged. I'm no fan of Theresa May and I would like her to admit she was wrong for calling the election but she won't. Those Conservative MPs who lost their seats and their jobs have far more reason to be aggrieved.
It's not a question of trying to elicit sympathy - she can't be that naive. Her behaviour toward those who didn't agree with her and the way she comported herself in the election campaign are for her to resolve - no one will be convinced by this "I'm only human after all, don't put the blame on me". The needless waste of time and money at a critical point in our country's history are something she will have to justify and the verdict of the electorate something she has to live with and understand.
She has also never said "don't put the blame on me". She literally (and that's the right meaning of literally here) did the opposite, and conceded her responsibility for her mistakes. And the mistake was, primarily, the manifesto, not the calling of the election.0 -
You're being a bit harsh on Harold there Jonathan. I don't think his leadership was lacking; his luck was atrocious though.Jonathan said:
Harold Godwinson?Sean_F said:
There have been times when the quality of political leadership has been far worse than it is now.Jonathan said:
Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.0 -
I don't remember her disowning the Daily Mail front page.CornishJohn said:
You have a strange understanding of the term literally. She called the election because she thought it would have achieved a stronger majority, which would make it easier to pass the final Brexit deal through the Commons. She never said anything about "crushing", whatever you or others want to project on to her.EPG said:
She literally called the election to crush her opponents. Hard Brexiteers, soft Brexiteers, Labour, citizens of everywhere, saboteurs, people she is bloody difficult to, whomsoever. Whatever the consequences of Corbyn being so close to power, at least the way he got there is funny.stodge said:
Another Conservative leader for whom an election didn't go well opined politics was a "rough trade" and Nick Clegg said that "if you live by the sword, you die by the sword".Casino_Royale said:
I haven't been shy of criticising her either but she doesn't deserve all of the opprobrium heaped on her, and I don't share the outright hatred for her that some do.
Political people should understand the need to take the rough with the jagged. I'm no fan of Theresa May and I would like her to admit she was wrong for calling the election but she won't. Those Conservative MPs who lost their seats and their jobs have far more reason to be aggrieved.
It's not a question of trying to elicit sympathy - she can't be that naive. Her behaviour toward those who didn't agree with her and the way she comported herself in the election campaign are for her to resolve - no one will be convinced by this "I'm only human after all, don't put the blame on me". The needless waste of time and money at a critical point in our country's history are something she will have to justify and the verdict of the electorate something she has to live with and understand.
She has also never said "don't put the blame on me". She literally (and that's the right meaning of literally here) did the opposite, and conceded her responsibility for her mistakes. And the mistake was, primarily, the manifesto, not the calling of the election.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/daily-mail-front-page-crush-the-saboteurs-general-election-2017_uk_58f702e2e4b029063d3514100 -
Chamberlain surely the most obvious example in the past 100 years?Mortimer said:
More recently than that.Jonathan said:
Harold Godwinson?Sean_F said:
There have been times when the quality of political leadership has been far worse than it is now.Jonathan said:
Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.
Tony Blair over Iraq, for example.0 -
People do make mistakes. Sometimes big ones. The question is whether we should judge someone on a single case of bad judgment, or whether we should judge them on their intelligence, work ethic and character over the course of their lives. Personally, I prefer the latter approach. I think Theresa May is the only leading Conservative that combines a drive to deliver Brexit, reduce immigration, build more housing and focus economic policy on the working class. If we do those things we can win multiple elections ahead whether or not May is at the helm. But we need to put politicking to one side now the election is over and focus on actually governing for a bit.stodge said:
Indeed and we all have our limitations. Should she have acknowledged hers and walked on the Friday morning ? We'll probably never know. I do think she allowed the advice of fawning sycophants and those who thought they could "crush" Labour to override her inner caution.Sean_F said:
As Attlee might have said "Sorry, not up to it.". But, I don't hate someone because they aren't up to it.
Even now on here there are plenty who still seem willing to die in the ditch with her - or is that just loyalty ? However you toss the salad, the truth is the election diminished her politically.
Fine, she's discovered humility - kudos. That doesn't alter the fact of the language used before the election and the attitudes of her supporters to those who dared to question or criticise.
I get the impression that a lot of people who comment on politics would have never allowed David Beckham for England again after he was sent off against Argentina.
0 -
It's not incumbent on heads of government to give their verdict on every tabloid newspaper headline. I don't recall Tony Blair criticising Daily Mirror headlines either. Mainly because it wasn't his job.logical_song said:
I don't remember her disowning the Daily Mail front page.CornishJohn said:
You have a strange understanding of the term literally. She called the election because she thought it would have achieved a stronger majority, which would make it easier to pass the final Brexit deal through the Commons. She never said anything about "crushing", whatever you or others want to project on to her.EPG said:
She literally called the election to crush her opponents. Hard Brexiteers, soft Brexiteers, Labour, citizens of everywhere, saboteurs, people she is bloody difficult to, whomsoever. Whatever the consequences of Corbyn being so close to power, at least the way he got there is funny.stodge said:
Another Conservative leader for whom an election didn't go well opined politics was a "rough trade" and Nick Clegg said that "if you live by the sword, you die by the sword".Casino_Royale said:
I haven't been shy of criticising her either but she doesn't deserve all of the opprobrium heaped on her, and I don't share the outright hatred for her that some do.
Political people should understand the need to take the rough with the jagged. I'm no fan of Theresa May and I would like her to admit she was wrong for calling the election but she won't. Those Conservative MPs who lost their seats and their jobs have far more reason to be aggrieved.
It's not a question of trying to elicit sympathy - she can't be that naive. Her behaviour toward those who didn't agree with her and the way she comported herself in the election campaign are for her to resolve - no one will be convinced by this "I'm only human after all, don't put the blame on me". The needless waste of time and money at a critical point in our country's history are something she will have to justify and the verdict of the electorate something she has to live with and understand.
She has also never said "don't put the blame on me". She literally (and that's the right meaning of literally here) did the opposite, and conceded her responsibility for her mistakes. And the mistake was, primarily, the manifesto, not the calling of the election.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/daily-mail-front-page-crush-the-saboteurs-general-election-2017_uk_58f702e2e4b029063d3514100 -
The Labour whips are doing a splendid job in the HoC.Expect any trick in the parliamentary handbook.Valerie Vaz led an excellent ambush today leading to a Speaker ruling of breach of Standing Order no 24.
The Tories are caving in all over the place.What an absolute shambles.0 -
Probably. But Jonathan didn't like talking about history pre 1945 earlier, because ReasonsBenpointer said:
Chamberlain surely the most obvious example in the past 100 years?Mortimer said:
More recently than that.Jonathan said:
Harold Godwinson?Sean_F said:
There have been times when the quality of political leadership has been far worse than it is now.Jonathan said:
Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.
Tony Blair over Iraq, for example.0 -
Baldwin was worse. He behaved like a fart in a trance, in response to the rise of Hitler.Benpointer said:
Chamberlain surely the most obvious example in the past 100 years?Mortimer said:
More recently than that.Jonathan said:
Harold Godwinson?Sean_F said:
There have been times when the quality of political leadership has been far worse than it is now.Jonathan said:
Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.
Tony Blair over Iraq, for example.
Chamberlain at least boosted military expenditure, and realised Hitler was dangerous. But, he grossly overestimated his ability to contain Hitler.0 -
But, when it comes to it, they don't have the numbers.volcanopete said:The Labour whips are doing a splendid job in the HoC.Expect any trick in the parliamentary handbook.Valerie Vaz led an excellent ambush today leading to a Speaker ruling of breach of Standing Order no 24.
The Tories are caving in all over the place.What an absolute shambles.0 -
@seanjonesqc: That whistling noise is Boris deflating https://twitter.com/jolyonmaugham/status/8855861310179246120
-
Too early to tellCasino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...0 -
This is absurd. Even if she didn't herself used the word "crush" those who supported her in the media and elsewhere were happy to follow her and demand a significant majority over Corbyn's Labour party and none were more sycophantic than the Daily Mail for whom May is the embodiment of their demographic.CornishJohn said:
You have a strange understanding of the term literally. She called the election because she thought it would have achieved a stronger majority, which would make it easier to pass the final Brexit deal through the Commons. She never said anything about "crushing", whatever you or others want to project on to her.
She has also never said "don't put the blame on me". She literally (and that's the right meaning of literally here) did the opposite, and conceded her responsibility for her mistakes. And the mistake was, primarily, the manifesto, not the calling of the election.
As for the manifesto, she would not have called an election had she not been informed and made well aware of the contents of the Conservative Party Manifesto. Do you seriously think CCHQ heard there was going to be an election and suddenly thought "oh, we'd better put together a manifesto" ? This kind of document always exists and is under review.
May knew the headlines and must have believed she could sell it and presumably the Conservative Party's own pollsters told her she could sell it and she should be the one at the front and centre of the selling. The election wasn't "snap" in the sense of a sudden decision at all - it was a surprise to many but always a plan.
Ultimately she couldn't sell the product and has been rewarded for her failure by the diminution of her authority and credibility in the eyes of many (though clearly not you). Some may think an apology sufficient accountability, others may say the removal of two of her most trusted advisers is enough punishment, some have demanded her head on a platter. That's for the Conservative Party to decide - the people have already delivered their verdict..
0 -
Indeed. The voters decided they liked her a lot more than Corbyn.stodge said:
This is absurd. Even if she didn't herself used the word "crush" those who supported her in the media and elsewhere were happy to follow her and demand a significant majority over Corbyn's Labour party and none were more sycophantic than the Daily Mail for whom May is the embodiment of their demographic.CornishJohn said:
You have a strange understanding of the term literally. She called the election because she thought it would have achieved a stronger majority, which would make it easier to pass the final Brexit deal through the Commons. She never said anything about "crushing", whatever you or others want to project on to her.
She has also never said "don't put the blame on me". She literally (and that's the right meaning of literally here) did the opposite, and conceded her responsibility for her mistakes. And the mistake was, primarily, the manifesto, not the calling of the election.
As for the manifesto, she would not have called an election had she not been informed and made well aware of the contents of the Conservative Party Manifesto. Do you seriously think CCHQ heard there was going to be an election and suddenly thought "oh, we'd better put together a manifesto" ? This kind of document always exists and is under review.
May knew the headlines and must have believed she could sell it and presumably the Conservative Party's own pollsters told her she could sell it and she should be the one at the front and centre of the selling. The election wasn't "snap" in the sense of a sudden decision at all - it was a surprise to many but always a plan.
Ultimately she couldn't sell the product and has been rewarded for her failure by the diminution of her authority and credibility in the eyes of many (though clearly not you). Some may think an apology sufficient accountability, others may say the removal of two of her most trusted advisers is enough punishment, some have demanded her head on a platter. That's for the Conservative Party to decide - the people have already delivered their verdict..0 -
Given that the Treaty of Rome dates from 1957, the EU is a 1950s throwback.AlastairMeeks said:
The UK is indeed far more than its EU membership. But with backward-looking maniacs in charge and with backward-looking maniacs in opposition, Britain is set for a long period of decline.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.0 -
Cant Theresa get the country to buy the 10 DUPers a house each in Westminister in case there's a surprise vote?Mortimer said:
But, when it comes to it, they don't have the numbers.volcanopete said:The Labour whips are doing a splendid job in the HoC.Expect any trick in the parliamentary handbook.Valerie Vaz led an excellent ambush today leading to a Speaker ruling of breach of Standing Order no 24.
The Tories are caving in all over the place.What an absolute shambles.0 -
Duh?! 42% - 40% doesn't seem like a lot to me.Mortimer said:
Indeed. The voters decided they liked her a lot more than Corbyn.stodge said:
This is absurd. Even if she didn't herself used the word "crush" those who supported her in the media and elsewhere were happy to follow her and demand a significant majority over Corbyn's Labour party and none were more sycophantic than the Daily Mail for whom May is the embodiment of their demographic.CornishJohn said:
You have a strange understanding of the term literally. She called the election because she thought it would have achieved a stronger majority, which would make it easier to pass the final Brexit deal through the Commons. She never said anything about "crushing", whatever you or others want to project on to her.
She has also never said "don't put the blame on me". She literally (and that's the right meaning of literally here) did the opposite, and conceded her responsibility for her mistakes. And the mistake was, primarily, the manifesto, not the calling of the election.
As for the manifesto, she would not have called an election had she not been informed and made well aware of the contents of the Conservative Party Manifesto. Do you seriously think CCHQ heard there was going to be an election and suddenly thought "oh, we'd better put together a manifesto" ? This kind of document always exists and is under review.
May knew the headlines and must have believed she could sell it and presumably the Conservative Party's own pollsters told her she could sell it and she should be the one at the front and centre of the selling. The election wasn't "snap" in the sense of a sudden decision at all - it was a surprise to many but always a plan.
Ultimately she couldn't sell the product and has been rewarded for her failure by the diminution of her authority and credibility in the eyes of many (though clearly not you). Some may think an apology sufficient accountability, others may say the removal of two of her most trusted advisers is enough punishment, some have demanded her head on a platter. That's for the Conservative Party to decide - the people have already delivered their verdict..0 -
NEW THREAD
0 -
Do we have to go through basic level maths again?Benpointer said:
Duh?! 42% - 40% doesn't seem like a lot to me.Mortimer said:
Indeed. The voters decided they liked her a lot more than Corbyn.stodge said:
This is absurd. Even if she didn't herself used the word "crush" those who supported her in the media and elsewhere were happy to follow her and demand a significant majority over Corbyn's Labour party and none were more sycophantic than the Daily Mail for whom May is the embodiment of their demographic.CornishJohn said:
You have a strange understanding of the term literally. She called the election because she thought it would have achieved a stronger majority, which would make it easier to pass the final Brexit deal through the Commons. She never said anything about "crushing", whatever you or others want to project on to her.
She has also never said "don't put the blame on me". She literally (and that's the right meaning of literally here) did the opposite, and conceded her responsibility for her mistakes. And the mistake was, primarily, the manifesto, not the calling of the election.
As for the manifesto, she would not have called an election had she not been informed and made well aware of the contents of the Conservative Party Manifesto. Do you seriously think CCHQ heard there was going to be an election and suddenly thought "oh, we'd better put together a manifesto" ? This kind of document always exists and is under review.
May knew the headlines and must have believed she could sell it and presumably the Conservative Party's own pollsters told her she could sell it and she should be the one at the front and centre of the selling. The election wasn't "snap" in the sense of a sudden decision at all - it was a surprise to many but always a plan.
Ultimately she couldn't sell the product and has been rewarded for her failure by the diminution of her authority and credibility in the eyes of many (though clearly not you). Some may think an apology sufficient accountability, others may say the removal of two of her most trusted advisers is enough punishment, some have demanded her head on a platter. That's for the Conservative Party to decide - the people have already delivered their verdict..
42>400 -
You've lost me now... especially as Jonathan mentioned Harold.Mortimer said:
Probably. But Jonathan didn't like talking about history pre 1945 earlier, because ReasonsBenpointer said:
Chamberlain surely the most obvious example in the past 100 years?Mortimer said:
More recently than that.Jonathan said:
Harold Godwinson?Sean_F said:
There have been times when the quality of political leadership has been far worse than it is now.Jonathan said:
Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Britain's international influence has already disintegrated before our eyes. The political discourse in the country is now held between two rival teams of backward-looking ideologues, each convinced that it holds the secret to national revival and each ready to blame the other for unfolding disasters. The damage threatens to be longterm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.
Tony Blair over Iraq, for example.0 -
2015 election = Munich Agreementwilliamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
2016 Referendum = Our declaration of War
2017 election = Our Dunkirk - we get our arses kicked, but we live to fight another day.
2021 = D-Day?0 -
Right, got it, thanks for explaining it so persuasively. The GE result shows voters like May a lot more than Corbyn. Keep repeating it, it will make you feel better eventually, I'm sure.Mortimer said:
Do we have to go through basic level maths again?Benpointer said:
Duh?! 42% - 40% doesn't seem like a lot to me.Mortimer said:
Indeed. The voters decided they liked her a lot more than Corbyn.stodge said:
This is absurd. Even if she didn't herself used the word "crush" those who supported her in the media and elsewhere were happy to follow her and demand a significant majority over Corbyn's Labour party and none were more sycophantic than the Daily Mail for whom May is the embodiment of their demographic.CornishJohn said:
You have a strange understanding of the term literally. She called the election because she thought it would have achieved a stronger majority, which would make it easier to pass the final Brexit deal through the Commons. She never said anything about "crushing", whatever you or others want to project on to her.
She has also never said "don't put the blame on me". She literally (and that's the right meaning of literally here) did the opposite, and conceded her responsibility for her mistakes. And the mistake was, primarily, the manifesto, not the calling of the election.
As for the manifesto, she would not have called an election had she not been informed and made well aware of the contents of the Conservative Party Manifesto. Do you seriously think CCHQ heard there was going to be an election and suddenly thought "oh, we'd better put together a manifesto" ? This kind of document always exists and is under review.
May knew the headlines and must have believed she could sell it and presumably the Conservative Party's own pollsters told her she could sell it and she should be the one at the front and centre of the selling. The election wasn't "snap" in the sense of a sudden decision at all - it was a surprise to many but always a plan.
Ultimately she couldn't sell the product and has been rewarded for her failure by the diminution of her authority and credibility in the eyes of many (though clearly not you). Some may think an apology sufficient accountability, others may say the removal of two of her most trusted advisers is enough punishment, some have demanded her head on a platter. That's for the Conservative Party to decide - the people have already delivered their verdict..
42>400 -
This morning I talked about Pms since the war. It was mildly controversial as I discriminated between Churchills post war and pre war performance. It clearly stuck in his craw.Benpointer said:
You've lost me now... especially as Jonathan mentioned Harold.Mortimer said:
Probably. But Jonathan didn't like talking about history pre 1945 earlier, because ReasonsBenpointer said:
Chamberlain surely the most obvious example in the past 100 years?Mortimer said:
More recently than that.Jonathan said:
Harold Godwinson?Sean_F said:
There have been times when the quality of political leadership has been far worse than it is now.Jonathan said:
Our political leadership is uniquely weak and shallow this time.Sean_F said:
This country has faced far more profound challenges than Brexit, throughout its history, and has coped with them well enough.Casino_Royale said:
It's not that bad, Alastair. The UK is far far more than its EU membership.AlastairMeeks said:
I think you're far too optimistic. I see nothing to suggest that we are in for anything other than a long term and serious decline from hereon.Casino_Royale said:
I'm not happy with how aspects of it have turned out so far either but it isn't as bad as you make out, and the UK will be just fine - we are remarkably resilient and just going through a volatile period.AlastairMeeks said:
In what way? Brm, deep and potentially irreparable.Casino_Royale said:
Comparing it to appeasement or the rise of Hitler is ludicrous hyperbole.AlastairMeeks said:
It looks like a sober statement of the truth. Britain looks to be heading into a longterm downward spiral as a direct result.Casino_Royale said:
It's silly sort of stuff like this that backfired so badly for Remain during the campaign.williamglenn said:https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4013360/government-adviser-says-brexit-is-the-biggest-mistake-since-failing-to-stop-hitlers-rise-to-power/
Adonis isn't doing anything to cool the temperature...
Besides which politics can recalibrate very quickly and in unpredictable ways, so I wouldn't be too downtrodden about centrist liberalism.
It will come back.
Tony Blair over Iraq, for example.0 -
"Baldwin was worse. He behaved like a fart in a trance, in response to the rise of Hitler."
Only if you believe Michael Foot's propaganda.0 -
The picture you paint suggests that Mrs May is a good deal more collegial than had been thought. Others have have her as secretive, controlling and dictatorial. I suspect that the election appeared a shambolic, unplanned one woman show because that is what it was.stodge said:
This is absurd. Even if she didn't herself used the word "crush" those who supported her in the media and elsewhere were happy to follow her and demand a significant majority over Corbyn's Labour party and none were more sycophantic than the Daily Mail for whom May is the embodiment of their demographic.CornishJohn said:
You have a strange understanding of the term literally. She called the election because she thought it would have achieved a stronger majority, which would make it easier to pass the final Brexit deal through the Commons. She never said anything about "crushing", whatever you or others want to project on to her.
She has also never said "don't put the blame on me". She literally (and that's the right meaning of literally here) did the opposite, and conceded her responsibility for her mistakes. And the mistake was, primarily, the manifesto, not the calling of the election.
As for the manifesto, she would not have called an election had she not been informed and made well aware of the contents of the Conservative Party Manifesto. Do you seriously think CCHQ heard there was going to be an election and suddenly thought "oh, we'd better put together a manifesto" ? This kind of document always exists and is under review.
May knew the headlines and must have believed she could sell it and presumably the Conservative Party's own pollsters told her she could sell it and she should be the one at the front and centre of the selling. The election wasn't "snap" in the sense of a sudden decision at all - it was a surprise to many but always a plan.
Ultimately she couldn't sell the product and has been rewarded for her failure by the diminution of her authority and credibility in the eyes of many (though clearly not you). Some may think an apology sufficient accountability, others may say the removal of two of her most trusted advisers is enough punishment, some have demanded her head on a platter. That's for the Conservative Party to decide - the people have already delivered their verdict..0 -
There isn't going to be UAS that has autonomy over weapon release any time soon.rcs1000 said:
These drones are much, much more autonomous. They're not flown by people on the ground, they get general instructions from them.
BAE will, of course, want to muscle in on the French/German EF2 project but I think the MoD is increasingly leaning toward a 100% F-35 fleet for the RAF/RN FAA using an A/B mix.
0
This discussion has been closed.