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System Posts: 12,578
edited January 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » This YouGov US polling says an awful lot about current US politics and its worrying

This is scary. When asked by YouGov US 15% of Trump voters responded that pic on the left had more people in it.https://t.co/2gq3dUkl9w pic.twitter.com/uTtII50SGw

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Comments

  • FrankBooth
    FrankBooth Posts: 10,022
    I wonder if they're just being subversive.
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    Orwellian.
  • dr_spyn
    dr_spyn Posts: 11,312
    https://twitter.com/WhitehavenNews/status/824354824309370880
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    It's like a Lib Dem bar chart...

    Crowding here!
  • RobD
    RobD Posts: 60,608
    Wasn't the pic on the left debunked, in that it was taken after the event?
  • Toms
    Toms Posts: 2,478
    Trumpe l'oeil
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    @PaulBrandITV: Labour source tells me Corbyn has agreed with Govt that there'll be 3 days for Article50 debate. By comparison Lisbon Treaty had 11 #Brexit
  • williamglenn
    williamglenn Posts: 56,289
    Toms said:

    Trumpe l'oeil

    Trumpe le monde.
  • dr_spyn
    dr_spyn Posts: 11,312
    williamglenn said:

    Toms said:

    Trumpe l'oeil

    Trumpe le monde.
    drum roll. applause.
  • brokenwheel
    brokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    edited January 2017
    RobD said:

    Wasn't the pic on the left debunked, in that it was taken after the event?

    Yes, but fake news is ok as long as it fits the correct agenda.
  • Sandpit
    Sandpit Posts: 56,045
    RobD said:

    Wasn't the pic on the left debunked, in that it was taken after the event?

    But the question doesn't mention time of day or the names of the events taking place, it simply asks for the respondent's opinion of the number of people in each photograph.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited January 2017
    I don't know why Mike finds this scary. It's rather funny, showing that Trump voters want to wind up the luvvies.

    Edit: There are plenty of other things to find scary about Trump, however.
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Wasn't the pic on the left debunked, in that it was taken after the event?

    But the question doesn't mention time of day or the names of the events taking place, it simply asks for the respondent's opinion of the number of people in each photograph.
    I'd have picked the picture on the left just to be trollish.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    John_M said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Wasn't the pic on the left debunked, in that it was taken after the event?

    But the question doesn't mention time of day or the names of the events taking place, it simply asks for the respondent's opinion of the number of people in each photograph.
    I'd have picked the picture on the left just to be trollish.
    Precisely. It's such a brain-dead question.
  • brokenwheel
    brokenwheel Posts: 3,352
    John_M said:

    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Wasn't the pic on the left debunked, in that it was taken after the event?

    But the question doesn't mention time of day or the names of the events taking place, it simply asks for the respondent's opinion of the number of people in each photograph.
    I'd have picked the picture on the left just to be trollish.
    Especially if as is likely Trump supporters saw the question itself as trolling, which it is.
  • FF43
    FF43 Posts: 18,213
    15% in this poll are voodooed.
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    FPT
    John_M said:

    For clarity, we're leaving the EU and I would be heartily pissed off were we to resile. The difficulties people keep throwing up serve to reinforce my conviction that it's the right thing to do - in another ten or fifteen years it would have been impossible.

    I simply think we're going to have a much tougher time than I'd hoped.

    I agree it's the right thing to do, so we must do it, and each new difficulty has reinforced the necessity to do so. There is no point putting if off leaving the EU, it would only be worse at a later date, or as you suggest all but impossible. In light of all that I feel virtually no doubt whatsoever now, if a few more difficulties are found by Remainers I'll reach zero.
  • Ishmael_Z
    Ishmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Can't remember where I read this, but one survey in the USA asked (by mistake) "Have you ever been decapitated?" and 4% of respondents said yes. So 15% on this question looks to be within normal parameters.
  • FF43
    FF43 Posts: 18,213
    brokenwheel said:

    RobD said:

    Wasn't the pic on the left debunked, in that it was taken after the event?

    Yes, but fake news is ok as long as it fits the correct agenda.
    But was it debunked? Could it be fake fake news?
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    The report tonight that he is going to withdraw billions from UN agencies and review all multi agency agreements including the Paris Climate Change agreement is going to cause immense worry Worldwide but when you think of it the US has been bailing out these organisations without question when other Countries should be stepping up to the plate.

    These are just incredible days and how this is going to end goodness only knows

  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    glw said:

    I agree it's the right thing to do, so we must do it, and each new difficulty has reinforced the necessity to do so.

    This mindset is fascinating.

    We have strayed from the path into a minefield

    "Each new explosion has reinforced the necessity to carry on and risk greater loss..."
  • Pong
    Pong Posts: 4,693
    edited January 2017
    Another explanation is that ~1/3 of yougov clickr poll respondents try to get through the survey as quickly as possible by selecting options at random.

    Whenever I encounter "In order to read this thing that you want to read, please answer these 3 questions first" thingys that are now popping up all over the internet, I don't read the question and just poke at some of the options until I get to read the thing that I want.

    It works 9 times out of 10.

    It would only take ~1/3 of people clicking randomly to give a 15% hit rate for photo A.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    FPT @ Cyclefree

    Good on you for being honest. It's a perfectly reasonable question to ask. For what it's worth, I couldn't fault anyone for having last minute jitters prior to us pressing the A50 red button. It's only natural: we're about to take a huge, bold - and almost certainly irreversible - new step.

    My view? In all honesty, I'm even more comfortable with Brexit now than I was before the vote. I'd priced into my vote an immediate drop in inward investment, a Brexit induced recession, for at least two years, and other countries holding back on even declaring an interest in trade deals before we were firmly Out. I also was concerned the UK might become something of a pariah state: caught in a pincer movement between a Hillary led US, and an repentant EU, determined to ensure we were marginalised so we might reconsider.

    I calculated all of that risk still made it worth it. I was worried for the first two weeks, when the UK seemed to enter a sort of political turmoil. But, thankfully, neither of these things have come to pass. Many will say "yet" but I think the world has already changed.

    Trump is a blessing and a curse from our point of view - or an opportunity and a threat, if you prefer:

    A blessing because his election has opened up strategic options for us both with the EU and the US. We can potentially (not definitely) start working on a trade deal from the goodwill he feels both to the UK - and to Brexit, which he credits with helping secure his victory - whilst his election also increases our distinctiveness and value to the EU as a regional partner in defence and security, and also in acting as a bridge and mediator with Trump.

    A curse because Trump is a narcissistic demagogue who only thinks of himself first and, deep down, probably has little affection for his own people, let alone anyone else. His election - to my eternal frustration - has deeply the soured the milk over Brexit because the two have been conflated and it's cast our vote in exactly the same light. And I really don't like that.

    But, he won't be around forever. Personally, I think gone in 4 years. But Brexit is for the long-term.

    On FTAs with other countries? Well, we don't have to sign any, and we should always be prepared to walk away - and it's worth noting, we don't have any with India, China or Australia/NZ or the US at the moment, and do pretty well as it is - but whilst our raw economic firepower may be less, it is still substantial at around 20-25% of the EU's, and what we lose in 'weight' we gain in flexibility and responsiveness.

    So I think Brexit will be a success. We might well end up forging a new role as the West's mediator, and the leader in global open trade and promotion of liberal values.
  • Big_G_NorthWales
    Big_G_NorthWales Posts: 66,238
    Scott_P said:

    glw said:

    I agree it's the right thing to do, so we must do it, and each new difficulty has reinforced the necessity to do so.

    This mindset is fascinating.

    We have strayed from the path into a minefield

    "Each new explosion has reinforced the necessity to carry on and risk greater loss..."
    Jonah
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    Scott_P said:

    glw said:

    I agree it's the right thing to do, so we must do it, and each new difficulty has reinforced the necessity to do so.

    This mindset is fascinating.

    We have strayed from the path into a minefield

    "Each new explosion has reinforced the necessity to carry on and risk greater loss..."
    You always advance under fire. Going to ground just gets you killed quicker.
  • Dromedary
    Dromedary Posts: 1,194
    edited January 2017
    @Mike - Great thread. It's very scary, and it chimes with what I've experienced with Trumpers online. Typically they go away saying they've won an argument when they haven't even had an argument but have simply shouted what they think even if you've then shown it to be false. Not opinion stuff, but factual stuff, such as whether or not the US has ever used nuclear weapons. It's as though there's a Stupid Pride movement. I'm told only about 1 in 8 teenagers in the US nowadays can write their name in joined-up writing.

    Meanwhile, here's a front cover from Libération:

    image
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    dr_spyn said:

    https://twitter.com/WhitehavenNews/status/824354824309370880

    So Labour, Tories, LibDems and UKIP are all standing female candidates. An all woman shortlist.
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    edited January 2017
    John_M said:

    Scott_P said:

    glw said:

    I agree it's the right thing to do, so we must do it, and each new difficulty has reinforced the necessity to do so.

    This mindset is fascinating.

    We have strayed from the path into a minefield

    "Each new explosion has reinforced the necessity to carry on and risk greater loss..."
    You always advance under fire. Going to ground just gets you killed quicker.
    Scott's mindset is fascinating, it's all too difficult and scary, therefore surrender.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    John_M said:

    You always advance under fire. Going to ground just gets you killed quicker.

    We are not under fire. We are simply blundering into all the mines that we knew were there. We laid many of them...
  • nunu
    nunu Posts: 6,024
    The level of partisanship in American politics is scary. Remember that poll that showed a majority of Trump voters thought Clinton is an actual demon. I've seen other worrying partisan polling.
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    Scott_P said:

    John_M said:

    You always advance under fire. Going to ground just gets you killed quicker.

    We are not under fire. We are simply blundering into all the mines that we knew were there. We laid many of them...
    Yes, yes, we're all going to die. Bury me at sea.
  • TheWhiteRabbit
    TheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    John_M said:

    Scott_P said:

    glw said:

    I agree it's the right thing to do, so we must do it, and each new difficulty has reinforced the necessity to do so.

    This mindset is fascinating.

    We have strayed from the path into a minefield

    "Each new explosion has reinforced the necessity to carry on and risk greater loss..."
    You always advance under fire. Going to ground just gets you killed quicker.
    I find Scott's comment rather ironic, since "more Europe" has been the EU's answer to everything. Indeed even as a lawyer I could barely think of a single retreat the EU has made from an idea in the whole history of its being. I voted Remain but it was never the EU's most flattering feature.
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    John_M said:

    Scott_P said:

    glw said:

    I agree it's the right thing to do, so we must do it, and each new difficulty has reinforced the necessity to do so.

    This mindset is fascinating.

    We have strayed from the path into a minefield

    "Each new explosion has reinforced the necessity to carry on and risk greater loss..."
    You always advance under fire. Going to ground just gets you killed quicker.
    I find Scott's comment rather ironic, since "more Europe" has been the EU's answer to everything. Indeed even as a lawyer I could barely think of a single retreat the EU has made from an idea in the whole history of its being. I voted Remain but it was never the EU's most flattering feature.
    Still, people will worship the most unlikely deities.
  • Roger
    Roger Posts: 20,744
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Can't remember where I read this, but one survey in the USA asked (by mistake) "Have you ever been decapitated?" and 4% of respondents said yes. So 15% on this question looks to be within normal parameters.

    Perhaps they were confused by the word decapitated and thought it meant something else? I remember Tommy Docherty once being asked what he thought should be done about football hooliganism and he said they should bring back capital punishment. "A good birching will do them a power of good"
  • FF43
    FF43 Posts: 18,213
    Scott_P said:

    John_M said:

    You always advance under fire. Going to ground just gets you killed quicker.

    We are not under fire. We are simply blundering into all the mines that we knew were there. We laid many of them...
    I have to agree with Scott on this. You don't usually vote for minefields.
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017
    nunu said:

    The level of partisanship in American politics is scary. Remember that poll that showed a majority of Trump voters thought Clinton is an actual demon. I've seen other worrying partisan polling.

    My favourite bit in that poll were the 4% of respondents who thought Clinton was an actual demon, but still were voting for her!
  • MonikerDiCanio
    MonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.
    15% of Trump supporters enjoy taking the piss out of YouGov.
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    TheWhiteRabbit said:

    I find Scott's comment rather ironic, since "more Europe" has been the EU's answer to everything. Indeed even as a lawyer I could barely think of a single retreat the EU has made from an idea in the whole history of its being. I voted Remain but it was never the EU's most flattering feature.

    Our voting to leave has already prompted more calls for "more Europe". There's not the slightest shred of evidence that the EU is ever going to change into something we would have put up with, and each day seems to bring yet more evidence that we were already damn close to passing the point of no return. So if we want to Leave we have to get on with it, it sure as hell won't be any easier at a later date.
  • MonikerDiCanio
    MonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    foxinsoxuk said:

    nunu said:

    The level of partisanship in American politics is scary. Remember that poll that showed a majority of Trump voters thought Clinton is an actual demon. I've seen other worrying partisan polling.

    My favourite bit in that poll were the 4% of respondents who thought Clinton was an actual demon, but still were voting for her!
    People relish lying to these pollsters. Explains why they're always wrong and going out of business.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    Pb'ers...I need your views (paging Josias Jessop..)

    I have to be careful what I say here - because it's confidential - but, since this isn't a public forum and you're all friends, you may have heard in the news recently that the scope of many of Network Rail's major projects have been cut back due to capability and poor performance.

    You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms.

    Peter Hansford has been tasked with exploring barriers to competition that prevent different ways of working on railway projects. But his brief is a bit broader than that: it's not just new models of project delivery he's examining, but also options for third party funding and financing of projects.

    http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hansford-to-review-rail-procurement

    In English how can the private sector in the UK get way more involved in financing, building, operating and maintaining railways than we currently do?

    My firm is involved in this and I have been invited to submit any thoughts in a short response on scoping, questions and suggestions.

    But, before I do, I'd love to hear your views first. What are the barriers? What can we do to break them down? Open season..

    There is no prize, reward or kudos for this other than a chance to (potentially) influence. But I think it's a very exciting opportunity

    Please let me know on here, or via a private VM, if you have any thoughts.

    Thanks! (and keep this quiet, and don't get me fired)
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    nunu said:

    The level of partisanship in American politics is scary. Remember that poll that showed a majority of Trump voters thought Clinton is an actual demon. I've seen other worrying partisan polling.

    You shouldn't pay much attention to such questions. If you ask a stupid question you get stupid answers. IIRC one pollster found that something like 18% of registered Democrats they surveyed agreed that Ted Cruz was the Zodiac Killer.
  • GeoffM
    GeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited January 2017
    foxinsoxuk said:

    nunu said:

    The level of partisanship in American politics is scary. Remember that poll that showed a majority of Trump voters thought Clinton is an actual demon. I've seen other worrying partisan polling.

    My favourite bit in that poll were the 4% of respondents who thought Clinton was an actual demon, but still were voting for her!
    Part of that may be explained by Madonna's offer of a blow job (with eye contact!) for Hillary voters. You'd promise that you'd vote for the demon under those circumstances, I think.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    John_M said:

    Scott_P said:

    glw said:

    I agree it's the right thing to do, so we must do it, and each new difficulty has reinforced the necessity to do so.

    This mindset is fascinating.

    We have strayed from the path into a minefield

    "Each new explosion has reinforced the necessity to carry on and risk greater loss..."
    You always advance under fire. Going to ground just gets you killed quicker.
    Absolutely.

    Courage, lads, courage.
  • Scott_P
    Scott_P Posts: 51,453
    @jessicaelgot: The Tories picked candidates for both by-elections tonight. In Copeland it's Trudy Harrison, in Stoke it's Jack Brereton - he's just 25!
  • Blue_rog
    Blue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Casino_Royale said:

    Pb'ers...I need your views (paging Josias Jessop..)

    I have to be careful what I say here - because it's confidential - but, since this isn't a public forum and you're all friends, you may have heard in the news recently that the scope of many of Network Rail's major projects have been cut back due to capability and poor performance.

    You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms.

    Peter Hansford has been tasked with exploring barriers to competition that prevent different ways of working on railway projects. But his brief is a bit broader than that: it's not just new models of project delivery he's examining, but also options for third party funding and financing of projects.

    http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hansford-to-review-rail-procurement

    In English how can the private sector in the UK get way more involved in financing, building, operating and maintaining railways than we currently do?

    My firm is involved in this and I have been invited to submit any thoughts in a short response on scoping, questions and suggestions.

    But, before I do, I'd love to hear your views first. What are the barriers? What can we do to break them down? Open season..

    There is no prize, reward or kudos for this other than a chance to (potentially) influence. But I think it's a very exciting opportunity

    Please let me know on here, or via a private VM, if you have any thoughts.

    Thanks! (and keep this quiet, and don't get me fired)

    Get rid of RMT and ASLEF
  • FF43
    FF43 Posts: 18,213
    glw said:

    nunu said:

    The level of partisanship in American politics is scary. Remember that poll that showed a majority of Trump voters thought Clinton is an actual demon. I've seen other worrying partisan polling.

    You shouldn't pay much attention to such questions. If you ask a stupid question you get stupid answers. IIRC one pollster found that something like 18% of registered Democrats they surveyed agreed that Ted Cruz was the Zodiac Killer.
    I could believe that about Ted Cruz. The one thing Donald Trump has going for him is that he is not Ted Cruz....
  • HYUFD
    HYUFD Posts: 128,924
    Dromedary said:

    @Mike - Great thread. It's very scary, and it chimes with what I've experienced with Trumpers online. Typically they go away saying they've won an argument when they haven't even had an argument but have simply shouted what they think even if you've then shown it to be false. Not opinion stuff, but factual stuff, such as whether or not the US has ever used nuclear weapons. It's as though there's a Stupid Pride movement. I'm told only about 1 in 8 teenagers in the US nowadays can write their name in joined-up writing.

    Meanwhile, here's a front cover from Libération:

    image

    Liberation is a hard left paper, hardly surprising it has little time for Fillon
  • MonikerDiCanio
    MonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Dromedary said:

    @Mike - Great thread. It's very scary, and it chimes with what I've experienced with Trumpers online. Typically they go away saying they've won an argument when they haven't even had an argument but have simply shouted what they think even if you've then shown it to be false. Not opinion stuff, but factual stuff, such as whether or not the US has ever used nuclear weapons. It's as though there's a Stupid Pride movement. I'm told only about 1 in 8 teenagers in the US nowadays can write their name in joined-up writing.

    Meanwhile, here's a front cover from Libération:

    image

    A great likeness to Bernard Henri Levy.
  • ydoethur
    ydoethur Posts: 74,263
    Roger said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Can't remember where I read this, but one survey in the USA asked (by mistake) "Have you ever been decapitated?" and 4% of respondents said yes. So 15% on this question looks to be within normal parameters.

    Perhaps they were confused by the word decapitated and thought it meant something else? I remember Tommy Docherty once being asked what he thought should be done about football hooliganism and he said they should bring back capital punishment. "A good birching will do them a power of good"
    Did he get a lot of stick for that?
  • glw
    glw Posts: 10,463
    Casino_Royale said:

    Absolutely.

    Courage, lads, courage.

    I don't really like the whole war metaphor as leaving the EU is not on a par with such things. Maybe a divorce or restructuring a company would be a better metaphor.

    Anyway, put simply sometimes to get to where you want to go you face difficulties on the way, but if you won't face them you'll be stuck where you currently are. If there was a problem free way of exiting the EU we'd take that path, but there isn't. And it certainly would have been easier to do so 10 or 20 years ago, but we missed our chance. All we can do is try to make the best of current circumstances, but any notion that we should wait for a better opportunity at a later date, perhaps post Trump, is foolish.
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Blue_rog said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Pb'ers...I need your views (paging Josias Jessop..)

    I have to be careful what I say here - because it's confidential - but, since this isn't a public forum and you're all friends, you may have heard in the news recently that the scope of many of Network Rail's major projects have been cut back due to capability and poor performance.

    You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms.

    Peter Hansford has been tasked with exploring barriers to competition that prevent different ways of working on railway projects. But his brief is a bit broader than that: it's not just new models of project delivery he's examining, but also options for third party funding and financing of projects.

    http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hansford-to-review-rail-procurement

    In English how can the private sector in the UK get way more involved in financing, building, operating and maintaining railways than we currently do?

    My firm is involved in this and I have been invited to submit any thoughts in a short response on scoping, questions and suggestions.

    But, before I do, I'd love to hear your views first. What are the barriers? What can we do to break them down? Open season..

    There is no prize, reward or kudos for this other than a chance to (potentially) influence. But I think it's a very exciting opportunity

    Please let me know on here, or via a private VM, if you have any thoughts.

    Thanks! (and keep this quiet, and don't get me fired)

    Get rid of RMT and ASLEF
    Yeah, those White Working Class bastards, defending their jobs and incomes, are standing in the way of the metropolitan capitalists. First ones against the wall...
  • Hertsmere_Pubgoer
    Hertsmere_Pubgoer Posts: 3,476
    Casino_Royale said:

    Pb'ers...I need your views (paging Josias Jessop..)

    I have to be careful what I say here - because it's confidential - but, since this isn't a public forum and you're all friends, you may have heard in the news recently that the scope of many of Network Rail's major projects have been cut back due to capability and poor performance.

    You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms.

    Peter Hansford has been tasked with exploring barriers to competition that prevent different ways of working on railway projects. But his brief is a bit broader than that: it's not just new models of project delivery he's examining, but also options for third party funding and financing of projects.

    http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hansford-to-review-rail-procurement

    In English how can the private sector in the UK get way more involved in financing, building, operating and maintaining railways than we currently do?

    My firm is involved in this and I have been invited to submit any thoughts in a short response on scoping, questions and suggestions.

    But, before I do, I'd love to hear your views first. What are the barriers? What can we do to break them down? Open season..

    There is no prize, reward or kudos for this other than a chance to (potentially) influence. But I think it's a very exciting opportunity

    Please let me know on here, or via a private VM, if you have any thoughts.

    Thanks! (and keep this quiet, and don't get me fired)

    Keeping loads of trucks backed up delivering to site (all charging £100/hour waiting time) having banksman that know the English word for Stop.
    While I appreciate that this is at the lower end of the spectrum from your original post. I know from experience the delays caused on the crossrail project.
  • ydoethur
    ydoethur Posts: 74,263
    edited January 2017
    Casino_Royale said:

    Pb'ers...I need your views (paging Josias Jessop..)

    I have to be careful what I say here - because it's confidential - but, since this isn't a public forum and you're all friends, you may have heard in the news recently that the scope of many of Network Rail's major projects have been cut back due to capability and poor performance.

    You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms.

    Peter Hansford has been tasked with exploring barriers to competition that prevent different ways of working on railway projects. But his brief is a bit broader than that: it's not just new models of project delivery he's examining, but also options for third party funding and financing of projects.

    http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hansford-to-review-rail-procurement

    In English how can the private sector in the UK get way more involved in financing, building, operating and maintaining railways than we currently do?

    My firm is involved in this and I have been invited to submit any thoughts in a short response on scoping, questions and suggestions.

    But, before I do, I'd love to hear your views first. What are the barriers? What can we do to break them down? Open season..

    There is no prize, reward or kudos for this other than a chance to (potentially) influence. But I think it's a very exciting opportunity

    Please let me know on here, or via a private VM, if you have any thoughts.

    Thanks! (and keep this quiet, and don't get me fired)

    How about by breaking up the new Labour job creation scheme for a lot of unemployable morons to whom it owed favours Network Rail and the bankers' licence to print money ROSCOs and having a vertically integrated system like, I don't know, just about every country with a fully functioning railway system on the planet, many if not most of which could be run by private companies?

    I may have phrased it sarcastically but that is a serious suggestion. David Wragg proposed a 12 company model in his book Signal Failure as long ago as 2004, and I have seen nothing to make me think his model is the wrong one.

    The separation of track and trains was the worst disaster ever to befall the railways, not forgetting Harrow and Quintinshill.
  • FF43
    FF43 Posts: 18,213
    Casino_Royale said:

    Pb'ers...I need your views (paging Josias Jessop..)

    I have to be careful what I say here - because it's confidential - but, since this isn't a public forum and you're all friends, you may have heard in the news recently that the scope of many of Network Rail's major projects have been cut back due to capability and poor performance.

    You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms.

    Peter Hansford has been tasked with exploring barriers to competition that prevent different ways of working on railway projects. But his brief is a bit broader than that: it's not just new models of project delivery he's examining, but also options for third party funding and financing of projects.

    http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hansford-to-review-rail-procurement

    In English how can the private sector in the UK get way more involved in financing, building, operating and maintaining railways than we currently do?

    My firm is involved in this and I have been invited to submit any thoughts in a short response on scoping, questions and suggestions.

    But, before I do, I'd love to hear your views first. What are the barriers? What can we do to break them down? Open season..

    There is no prize, reward or kudos for this other than a chance to (potentially) influence. But I think it's a very exciting opportunity

    Please let me know on here, or via a private VM, if you have any thoughts.

    Thanks! (and keep this quiet, and don't get me fired)

    I would look at other countries' experience. I suspect there isn't much private investment in rail infrastructure elsewhere and there is a probably a reason for it. The reason I suspect is the difficulty in assessing and managing the financial risk. Mr Grayling's frustration is probably that the public sector is bad at managing the financial risk, but that doesn't mean private companies will want to leap in, unless the access charges are set very high or the government takes on the risk, either explicitly or implicitly (they nationalise a railway line that gets into difficulty). It seems somewhat similar to nuclear power.

    [Lot of probablies and suspects in that comment...]
  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Labour source tells me Corbyn has agreed with Govt that there'll be 3 days for Article50 debate. By comparison Lisbon Treaty had 11 #Brexit

    How many minutes of debate per word?
  • TheWhiteRabbit
    TheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    Charles said:

    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Labour source tells me Corbyn has agreed with Govt that there'll be 3 days for Article50 debate. By comparison Lisbon Treaty had 11 #Brexit

    How many minutes of debate per word?
    1000 minutes of debate on the first zero, and 20 on the rest of the bill :)
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited January 2017
    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Labour source tells me Corbyn has agreed with Govt that there'll be 3 days for Article50 debate. By comparison Lisbon Treaty had 11 #Brexit

    On the other hand, there has been a referendum about Article 50. Somehow the promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty got mislaid. So the democratic deficit seems rather heavily weighted on the other side.
  • Blue_rog
    Blue_rog Posts: 2,019
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Blue_rog said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Pb'ers...I need your views (paging Josias Jessop..)

    I have to be careful what I say here - because it's confidential - but, since this isn't a public forum and you're all friends, you may have heard in the news recently that the scope of many of Network Rail's major projects have been cut back due to capability and poor performance.

    You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms.

    Peter Hansford has been tasked with exploring barriers to competition that prevent different ways of working on railway projects. But his brief is a bit broader than that: it's not just new models of project delivery he's examining, but also options for third party funding and financing of projects.

    http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hansford-to-review-rail-procurement

    In English how can the private sector in the UK get way more involved in financing, building, operating and maintaining railways than we currently do?

    My firm is involved in this and I have been invited to submit any thoughts in a short response on scoping, questions and suggestions.

    But, before I do, I'd love to hear your views first. What are the barriers? What can we do to break them down? Open season..

    There is no prize, reward or kudos for this other than a chance to (potentially) influence. But I think it's a very exciting opportunity

    Please let me know on here, or via a private VM, if you have any thoughts.

    Thanks! (and keep this quiet, and don't get me fired)

    Get rid of RMT and ASLEF
    Yeah, those White Working Class bastards, defending their jobs and incomes, are standing in the way of the metropolitan capitalists. First ones against the wall...
    Talk to anyone that's tried to travel on Southern Rail in the last month or so :grin:
  • paulbarker
    paulbarker Posts: 77
    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    paulbarker said:

    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.

    It's three days to debate a binary question. Invoke article 50 or not. Seems like an incredibly generous allowance to me.
  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758
    Casino_Royale said:

    Pb'ers...I need your views (paging Josias Jessop..)

    I have to be careful what I say here - because it's confidential - but, since this isn't a public forum and you're all friends, you may have heard in the news recently that the scope of many of Network Rail's major projects have been cut back due to capability and poor performance.

    You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms.

    Peter Hansford has been tasked with exploring barriers to competition that prevent different ways of working on railway projects. But his brief is a bit broader than that: it's not just new models of project delivery he's examining, but also options for third party funding and financing of projects.

    http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hansford-to-review-rail-procurement

    In English how can the private sector in the UK get way more involved in financing, building, operating and maintaining railways than we currently do?

    My firm is involved in this and I have been invited to submit any thoughts in a short response on scoping, questions and suggestions.

    But, before I do, I'd love to hear your views first. What are the barriers? What can we do to break them down? Open season..

    There is no prize, reward or kudos for this other than a chance to (potentially) influence. But I think it's a very exciting opportunity

    Please let me know on here, or via a private VM, if you have any thoughts.

    Thanks! (and keep this quiet, and don't get me fired)

    People regularly talk about getting pension funds involved in infrastructure but no one ever things about government doing that.

    With the state DB pensions at the moment a lot of them are unfunded. Perhaps if the government were to spend the money on infrastructure but allocate the resultant asset (which would be operated by someone else) to the pension scheme. Additionally the government shouldn't lead the projects but come in as a minority partner - i.e. deal pricing is on market terms.

    Trade off is of course near term cash spend vs long term liability
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    John_M said:

    paulbarker said:

    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.

    It's three days to debate a binary question. Invoke article 50 or not. Seems like an incredibly generous allowance to me.
    Especially since the question has already been answered. What's there to discuss?
  • paulbarker
    paulbarker Posts: 77
    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Blue_rog said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Blue_rog said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Pb'ers...I need your views (paging Josias Jessop..)

    I have to be careful what I say here - because it's confidential - but, since this isn't a public forum and you're all friends, you may have heard in the news recently that the scope of many of Network Rail's major projects have been cut back due to capability and poor performance.

    You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms.

    Peter Hansford has been tasked with exploring barriers to competition that prevent different ways of working on railway projects. But his brief is a bit broader than that: it's not just new models of project delivery he's examining, but also options for third party funding and financing of projects.

    http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hansford-to-review-rail-procurement

    In English how can the private sector in the UK get way more involved in financing, building, operating and maintaining railways than we currently do?

    My firm is involved in this and I have been invited to submit any thoughts in a short response on scoping, questions and suggestions.

    But, before I do, I'd love to hear your views first. What are the barriers? What can we do to break them down? Open season..

    There is no prize, reward or kudos for this other than a chance to (potentially) influence. But I think it's a very exciting opportunity

    Please let me know on here, or via a private VM, if you have any thoughts.

    Thanks! (and keep this quiet, and don't get me fired)

    Get rid of RMT and ASLEF
    Yeah, those White Working Class bastards, defending their jobs and incomes, are standing in the way of the metropolitan capitalists. First ones against the wall...
    Talk to anyone that's tried to travel on Southern Rail in the last month or so :grin:
    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

  • Charles
    Charles Posts: 35,758
    paulbarker said:

    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.

    I'm going to deny your comment a second time
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    John_M said:

    paulbarker said:

    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.

    It's three days to debate a binary question. Invoke article 50 or not. Seems like an incredibly generous allowance to me.
    Especially since the question has already been answered. What's there to discuss?
    I'm sure there will be endless attempts to load it down with all manner of baggage, much of which will be prejudicial to our negotiating position.

    It's an opportunity for people to put markers down, so if things go tits up, arses are duly covered.

    I still think three days is too long :).
  • welshowl
    welshowl Posts: 4,464
    John_M said:

    paulbarker said:

    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.

    It's three days to debate a binary question. Invoke article 50 or not. Seems like an incredibly generous allowance to me.
    Especially as 33 million of us have already given our decision on the answer.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    I just came across this interesting article about how Mexicans see NAFTA:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/world/americas/mexico-donald-trump-nafta.html?action=click&contentCollection=Economy&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
  • MonikerDiCanio
    MonikerDiCanio Posts: 5,792
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    John_M said:

    paulbarker said:

    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.

    It's three days to debate a binary question. Invoke article 50 or not. Seems like an incredibly generous allowance to me.
    Especially since the question has already been answered. What's there to discuss?
    Let the pompous paper shufflers have their little charade. The people can laugh.
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    I just came across this interesting article about how Mexicans see NAFTA:

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/04/world/americas/mexico-donald-trump-nafta.html?action=click&contentCollection=Economy&module=RelatedCoverage&region=Marginalia&pgtype=article

    Thanks for posting that. Even within the much vaunted Single Market, we can see wildly different economic outcomes - free trade does not automatically correlate with prosperity. I offer Italy as exhibit A. Not all its woes are caused by the EU or even the Euro, but it doesn't seem to have benefited much either.
  • AnneJGP
    AnneJGP Posts: 3,743
    edited January 2017
    John_M said:

    paulbarker said:

    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.

    It's three days to debate a binary question. Invoke article 50 or not. Seems like an incredibly generous allowance to me.
    How much time does that give each MP to have their say? I know the length of their [working] days varies according to need.

    edited to add [working]
  • Ishmael_Z
    Ishmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2017/01/25/we-asked-people-which-inauguration-crowd-was-bigger-heres-what-they-said/?utm_term=.e4e402521fd7

    This survey is as voodoo as Baron Samedi. The WaPo is not a polling organisation. The methodology is not stated.

    More to the point, even if the story is scary (which it isn't - it just shows that trolling produces equal and opposite counter-trolling) it fails to make it into the top 10 scary Trump-related things which have happened in the past 24 hours.

    A puzzling threader.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    John_M said:

    Thanks for posting that. Even within the much vaunted Single Market, we can see wildly different economic outcomes - free trade does not automatically correlate with prosperity. I offer Italy as exhibit A. Not all its woes are caused by the EU or even the Euro, but it doesn't seem to have benefited much either.

    And this paragraph might seem familiar from the Brexit arguments:

    After two decades, the two economies are tightly braided together. Goods manufactured by companies operating in both countries — whether speakers, cars or airplanes — cross the border multiple times during production, a shared manufacturing process that, if destroyed, would mean shared job losses.
  • MarqueeMark
    MarqueeMark Posts: 55,458
    John_M said:

    paulbarker said:

    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.

    It's three days to debate a binary question. Invoke article 50 or not. Seems like an incredibly generous allowance to me.
    By day three they'll be down to knock-knock jokes....
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Scott_P said:

    @PaulBrandITV: Labour source tells me Corbyn has agreed with Govt that there'll be 3 days for Article50 debate. By comparison Lisbon Treaty had 11 #Brexit

    On the other hand, there has been a referendum about Article 50. Somehow the promised referendum on the Lisbon Treaty got mislaid. So the democratic deficit seems rather heavily weighted on the other side.
    It's ironic that had we actually been given a vote on the Lisbon Treaty, as promised, we would probably not have voted to leave the EU. We'd have had a looser relationship with the EU, but we'd still be members.

  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    John_M said:

    Thanks for posting that. Even within the much vaunted Single Market, we can see wildly different economic outcomes - free trade does not automatically correlate with prosperity. I offer Italy as exhibit A. Not all its woes are caused by the EU or even the Euro, but it doesn't seem to have benefited much either.

    And this paragraph might seem familiar from the Brexit arguments:

    After two decades, the two economies are tightly braided together. Goods manufactured by companies operating in both countries — whether speakers, cars or airplanes — cross the border multiple times during production, a shared manufacturing process that, if destroyed, would mean shared job losses.
    Yes, I thought it was a great article with a lot of resonance for Europe and the UK. Even within the UK - the NI/Eire dairy industry being a case in point.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
    It's needed to preserve the right of politically-motivated unions to wreck the lives of innocent commuters in a series of completely pointless strikes?

    It's a view, I suppose.
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
    Which rights have been lost?
  • John_M
    John_M Posts: 7,503
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
    Why 'capitalist' profit? Profit makes the world go around, whether that offends your medical sensibilities or not.

    A mere quip on a niche message board does not imply a bonfire of workers rights. In case you hadn't noticed, May is making a play for the C2DE vote and might well end up with her tanks all over Labours traditional lawn. She's already convinced my Mum, so I rate her chances.
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
    It's needed to preserve the right of politically-motivated unions to wreck the lives of innocent commuters in a series of completely pointless strikes?

    It's a view, I suppose.
    It takes two sides to make a pointless strike. Grayling set the strike up.

    What rights do people lose? Well there are mooted plans to stop strikes in "essential services".

  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
    It's needed to preserve the right of politically-motivated unions to wreck the lives of innocent commuters in a series of completely pointless strikes?

    It's a view, I suppose.
    It takes two sides to make a pointless strike. Grayling set the strike up.

    What rights do people lose? Well there are mooted plans to stop strikes in "essential services".

    Users of such services would see that as enhancing their rights.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited January 2017
    foxinsoxuk said:

    It takes two sides to make a pointless strike. Grayling set the strike up.

    What rights do people lose? Well there are mooted plans to stop strikes in "essential services".

    Grayling? Really?

    Yes, there are mooted plans (proposed by, amongst others, the excellent Chris Philp, one to watch as a future PM). That is in reaction to the misery being imposed on thousands of innocent victims.
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    John_M said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
    Why 'capitalist' profit? Profit makes the world go around, whether that offends your medical sensibilities or not.

    A mere quip on a niche message board does not imply a bonfire of workers rights. In case you hadn't noticed, May is making a play for the C2DE vote and might well end up with her tanks all over Labours traditional lawn. She's already convinced my Mum, so I rate her chances.
    Why Capitalist profit?

    Well to quote @CasinoRoyale

    "You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms"

    How to maximise profit was the remainder of his enquiry.
  • AlastairMeeks
    AlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    edited January 2017
    @Cyclefree you have been brave. There is more faith in honest doubt etc.

    However, I think you're looking at the wrong thing. I voted to Remain not for any love of the EU but because the direction of the country would be worse if we left than if we remained. This is primarily a moral rather than an economic judgement.

    So now we find pbers who told us that Britain was full and could not take any more immigration enthusiastically cheering on the idea of immigration from former white colonies. We find pbers unable to condemn death threats against a public figure without also saying how much they dislike her. Newspapers call judges the enemies of the people for issuing judgments that they disagree with and politicians call for those judges to be sacked for the same reason. Those who continue to want to remain in the EU are branded traitors rather than accepted as honestly believing a different course is better for the country.

    The economics can be survived. The damage to the civic society might not.
  • rural_voter
    rural_voter Posts: 2,038
    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Pb'ers...I need your views (paging Josias Jessop..)

    I have to be careful what I say here - because it's confidential - but, since this isn't a public forum and you're all friends, you may have heard in the news recently that the scope of many of Network Rail's major projects have been cut back due to capability and poor performance.

    You may also have heard Mr. Grayling isn't happy. He's looking at Network Rail's sole control of the nation's rail infrastructure and is thinking of sharing it with private firms.

    Peter Hansford has been tasked with exploring barriers to competition that prevent different ways of working on railway projects. But his brief is a bit broader than that: it's not just new models of project delivery he's examining, but also options for third party funding and financing of projects.

    http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/hansford-to-review-rail-procurement

    In English how can the private sector in the UK get way more involved in financing, building, operating and maintaining railways than we currently do?

    My firm is involved in this and I have been invited to submit any thoughts in a short response on scoping, questions and suggestions.

    But, before I do, I'd love to hear your views first. What are the barriers? What can we do to break them down? Open season..

    There is no prize, reward or kudos for this other than a chance to (potentially) influence. But I think it's a very exciting opportunity

    Please let me know on here, or via a private VM, if you have any thoughts.

    Thanks! (and keep this quiet, and don't get me fired)

    People regularly talk about getting pension funds involved in infrastructure but no one ever things about government doing that.

    With the state DB pensions at the moment a lot of them are unfunded. Perhaps if the government were to spend the money on infrastructure but allocate the resultant asset (which would be operated by someone else) to the pension scheme. Additionally the government shouldn't lead the projects but come in as a minority partner - i.e. deal pricing is on market terms.

    Trade off is of course near term cash spend vs long term liability
    I despair of the railways since privatisation. We should return to an integrated organisation, as 'Signal Failures' in Private Eye asks for every fortnight. You might like to read his columns; he seems to know quite a lot about why Network Rail is less capable than British Rail.

    I've never travelled on a Swiss train that was more than 2 mins. late. They still have a fairly integrated system. BTW, is this a private forum?! News to me.
  • foxinsoxuk
    foxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited January 2017
    Sean_F said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
    It's needed to preserve the right of politically-motivated unions to wreck the lives of innocent commuters in a series of completely pointless strikes?

    It's a view, I suppose.
    It takes two sides to make a pointless strike. Grayling set the strike up.

    What rights do people lose? Well there are mooted plans to stop strikes in "essential services".

    Users of such services would see that as enhancing their rights.
    Did the CDE's vote to tear up their rights to collective action?

    If you believe so, then Trump will be as nothing compared with the social division here.

    The left wing argument against immigration is that capitalist employers use immigrants to drive down workers pay and conditions. The corollory of reducing immigration is enhancing workers rights, by striking or voting with their feet.

    I did suspect Brexiteers sympathy for British workers would be shortlived, and so it is proven.
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    Southern Trains are shit. It's not just the strikes. It was shit before the strikes.

    Let's not have more than that. Thank-you.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    Jonathan said:

    Southern Trains are shit. It's not just the strikes. It was shit before the strikes.

    Let's not have more than that. Thank-you.

    That doesn't excuse the strikes, though, does it?
  • Sean_F
    Sean_F Posts: 39,132
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Sean_F said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
    It's needed to preserve the right of politically-motivated unions to wreck the lives of innocent commuters in a series of completely pointless strikes?

    It's a view, I suppose.
    It takes two sides to make a pointless strike. Grayling set the strike up.

    What rights do people lose? Well there are mooted plans to stop strikes in "essential services".

    Users of such services would see that as enhancing their rights.
    Did the CDE's vote to tear up their rights to collective action?

    If you believe so, then Trump will be as nothing compared with the social division here.

    The left wing argument against immigration is that capitalist employers use immigrants to drive down workers pay and conditions. The corollory of reducing immigration is enhancing workers rights, by striking or voting with their feet.

    I did suspect Brexiteers sympathy for British workers would be shortlived, and so it is proven.
    Don't CDEs use the railways?
  • GIN1138
    GIN1138 Posts: 22,938
    edited January 2017
    paulbarker said:

    The Power of Faith ! (Topic)

    On Corbyns further caving in to The Government - thats 3 Days to talk about ripping up the last 42 Years of British Politics.

    Well the voters did that on 23rd June after a referendum campaign spanning months and months to be fair...
  • dr_spyn
    dr_spyn Posts: 11,312
    Corbyn apologises to Police Service of NI but not directly to the victim of the shooting.

    https://twitter.com/LibbyWienerITV/status/824361817078190086

    Nothing like working out what might be the right thing to do in the circumstances.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    And, lest we forget, the halycon days of nationalised rail were not exactly strike-free, let alone punctual, reliable, or comfortable, were they?

    Of course unions prefer public ownership. That's because politicians are easy to intimidate, since they have to get re-elected in the short term.
  • rural_voter
    rural_voter Posts: 2,038
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Sean_F said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
    It's needed to preserve the right of politically-motivated unions to wreck the lives of innocent commuters in a series of completely pointless strikes?

    It's a view, I suppose.
    It takes two sides to make a pointless strike. Grayling set the strike up.

    What rights do people lose? Well there are mooted plans to stop strikes in "essential services".

    Users of such services would see that as enhancing their rights.
    Did the CDE's vote to tear up their rights to collective action?

    If you believe so, then Trump will be as nothing compared with the social division here.

    The left wing argument against immigration is that capitalist employers use immigrants to drive down workers pay and conditions. The corollory of reducing immigration is enhancing workers rights, by striking or voting with their feet.

    I did suspect Brexiteers sympathy for British workers would be shortlived, and so it is proven.
    It lasted a bit longer than their plan to spend more on the NHS.
  • Jonathan
    Jonathan Posts: 22,107
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Jonathan said:

    Southern Trains are shit. It's not just the strikes. It was shit before the strikes.

    Let's not have more than that. Thank-you.

    That doesn't excuse the strikes, though, does it?
    The strikes are a symptom of corporate dysfunction. A total abject failure of leadership and management. They really are dreadful. If I was a Southern employee I would leave.
  • TheWhiteRabbit
    TheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,455
    Sean_F said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Sean_F said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Yep. The working classes should go back to touching their forelocks, bowing to their corporate masters now that Brexit is on its way. Who cares about their jobs, incomes and communities? Get some Polish strikebreakers in.

    Good trolling.

    You don't think commuters are working people? Or do their jobs, incomes and communities not count in your view?
    Sure. Just point out that the love affair of the Brexiteers for Britains workers is fading, in favour of their love of capitalist profit.

    No surprises there. They have voted like sheep to lose their rights in free market Brexit Britain. Their job is done.

    But it is very much why the Labour Party will not die, it is needed more than ever.
    It's needed to preserve the right of politically-motivated unions to wreck the lives of innocent commuters in a series of completely pointless strikes?

    It's a view, I suppose.
    It takes two sides to make a pointless strike. Grayling set the strike up.

    What rights do people lose? Well there are mooted plans to stop strikes in "essential services".

    Users of such services would see that as enhancing their rights.
    Did the CDE's vote to tear up their rights to collective action?

    If you believe so, then Trump will be as nothing compared with the social division here.

    The left wing argument against immigration is that capitalist employers use immigrants to drive down workers pay and conditions. The corollory of reducing immigration is enhancing workers rights, by striking or voting with their feet.

    I did suspect Brexiteers sympathy for British workers would be shortlived, and so it is proven.
    Don't CDEs use the railways?
    I actually think a central truth is often missed. It is a small number of industries where the burden of a strike falls not on the employer but the public at large that prove problematic. Both defences of the right to strike, and those who want to limit strikes in general, do not distinguish in the way I think they should.
  • chestnut
    chestnut Posts: 7,341
    edited January 2017
    Dominic Grieve proving that some village is missing it's idiot on ITN.
  • Casino_Royale
    Casino_Royale Posts: 63,687
    Thank you all for your suggestions so far.

    Please do feel free to come back to me anytime if you have any eureka moments!

    Cheers.
  • Richard_Nabavi
    Richard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited January 2017
    Jonathan said:

    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Jonathan said:

    Southern Trains are shit. It's not just the strikes. It was shit before the strikes.

    Let's not have more than that. Thank-you.

    That doesn't excuse the strikes, though, does it?
    The strikes are a symptom of corporate dysfunction. A total abject failure of leadership and management. They really are dreadful. If I was a Southern employee I would leave.
    You are obfuscating. Yes, Southern has been dreadful (although to be fair to them, some of the problems have been caused by the Thameslink disruption). That's no excuse for holding thousands of innocent commuters (including I think you?) to a ransom which they can't pay even if they wanted to.
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