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SystemSystem Posts: 12,683
edited August 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris comparing Miliband to Stalin does not fit with Cameron’s “weak, weak, weak” rhetoric

One of the strategies that the Tories were said to have agreed on before the recess was to stop referring to the way that Ed Miliband won the party leadership by “shafting” his brother.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,818
    Not really mike, you can be weak and ruthless at the same time. Macbeth for example..
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited August 2013
    "Boris comparing Miliband to Stalin does not fit with Cameron’s “weak, weak, weak” rhetoric"

    CCHQ's flip-flopping on their core attack was noted long ago. At least by some of us.

    Crosby wants to rerun his "Not Ken Again" campaign but the Scargill/Stalin Miliband narrative is totally at odds with reality. Little Ed is an ineffectual leader drifting along cluelessly being bounced into reversing what weak positions he has by Blairites and disasters like Falkirk.

    Much as it would make Crosby's job easier the fact is little Ed is no Red Ken and the most deadly weapon against a leader is ridicule for their weakness and incompetence.

    Hence the tories crash in the polling after Osbrowne's omnishambles and hence Vince Cable being so brutally effective with his "from Stalin to Mr Bean" quip.

    If you're gong to hammer a message 24/7 you had better decide what it is and the tories public relations twits still haven't.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    Oh everything is bad for the Tories - yes yes yes.

    Vote Lib Dem or Labour or UKIP or Green or Pensioners Party...
  • compouter1compouter1 Posts: 642
    Presses play on daily PB thread tape:

    "Ed's crap"

    "Labour in the 36-40% bracket again"

    "Labour is seven percent in front"

    Stop tape
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,176
    Apart from the wisdom (or lack) of portraying Ed as ruthless, it's a particularly clumsy simile since Stalin didn't have any extant brothers to shaft.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Slackbladder said:

    Not really mike, you can be weak and ruthless at the same time. Macbeth for example..

    Macbeth the Shakespeare myth but not Macbeth the reality.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,113
    David Cameron:

    'A natural leader'; 'Good in a crisis'; 'Charismatic'

    Ed Miliband:

    'In touch with the concerns of ordinary people'; 'Strong'.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,774
    Theuniondivvie said:

    Apart from the wisdom (or lack) of portraying Ed as ruthless, it's a particularly clumsy simile since Stalin didn't have any extant brothers to shaft.

    The full quote is


    "Only a socialist could do that to his brother, only a socialist could regard familial ties as being so trivial as to shaft his own brother. I mean, unbelievable! Only lefties can think like that, They see people as discrete agents devoid of ties to society or to each other, and that's how Stalin could murder 20 million people."

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,774
    Off topic, with Putin's anti- promoting gays law, surely images of Stalin must be banned.

    I mean his 'tasche screams gay.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Both leaders struggle to inspire poll respondents if these numbers are any guide. Ed's aren't great, but Dave's look very flakey too. No surprise really. An awful Prime Minister.
  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    edited August 2013
    "Any reason Dave's ratings have taken a tumble in the last fortnight" maybe people don't like squid..
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Oh dear! Another Ed thread:

    Ed the Knife
    Ed the weak!
    Ed the silent
    Ed the speak,
    Enough, enough!
    Lets have another thread,
    on that infernal leak.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,113
    edited August 2013
    Ed isn't a natural or charismatic leader, but I'd say he is a strong one. I'm expecting Andy Burnham to be shuffled soon enough.

    OTOH I think Dave is a natural and charismatic leader, though not a strong one.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,894
    Good morning, everyone.

    Not sure that Boris not singing to the hymn sheet provided by CCHQ is necessarily surprising.

    Mr. Eagles, it seems almost every year Putin goes on a holiday/photoshoot for a gay calendar, which does make his anti-gay law seem a bit weird (as well as being oppressive, of course).
  • Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    O/T

    I'm having a little flutter on Foundry in the 15.05 and Tornado (boring) in the 15.40 at York today.

    Good luck to all
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    That's quite a lead on being in touch with the concerns of ordinary people and a growing one on honesty. Fits in handily with what Mike has been observing recently about people being more well disposed to Labour than the Tories.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,774
    tim said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Apart from the wisdom (or lack) of portraying Ed as ruthless, it's a particularly clumsy simile since Stalin didn't have any extant brothers to shaft.

    The full quote is


    "Only a socialist could do that to his brother, only a socialist could regard familial ties as being so trivial as to shaft his own brother. I mean, unbelievable! Only lefties can think like that, They see people as discrete agents devoid of ties to society or to each other, and that's how Stalin could murder 20 million people."

    Is Boris the man to lecture people about familial loyalty?
    No. But that's part of Boris' charm.

  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,795
    David Miliband shafted himself.

    When James Purnell resigned from Brown's Cabinet, DM was expected to follow suit. So was Alan Johnson. They were both seduced by phone calls from Peter Mandelson, offering them security in the posts they most coveted - Foreign Secretary and Home Office respectively. They both took the bait. Had either failed to do so, Brown was probably gone. Both, and he was definitely gone.

    Next morning DM appeared briefly before the Press and pledged his alliegance to Brown. The moment was gone. Brown was safe, and DM's political future was henceforth tied to the doomed PM.

    It's all covered brilliantly in Rawnsley's 'End Of The Party'. Recommended.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Blue_rog said:

    O/T

    I'm having a little flutter on Foundry in the 15.05 and Tornado (boring) in the 15.40 at York today.

    Good luck to all

    Online surely not so much "boring" as Ebor

    I'll get my saddle ....

  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    tim said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Apart from the wisdom (or lack) of portraying Ed as ruthless, it's a particularly clumsy simile since Stalin didn't have any extant brothers to shaft.

    The full quote is


    "Only a socialist could do that to his brother, only a socialist could regard familial ties as being so trivial as to shaft his own brother. I mean, unbelievable! Only lefties can think like that, They see people as discrete agents devoid of ties to society or to each other, and that's how Stalin could murder 20 million people."

    Is Boris the man to lecture people about familial loyalty?

    He's an immigrant taking British people's jobs.

  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    “the message on how they should deal with EdM from Number 10 has not permeated City Hall”

    And why should it? – Boris is the Mayor of London and carves his own furrow independent of Whitehall.

    Filed under Barrel scraping.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    The interesting thing about this party leader stuff is who we are not talking about. Earlier this year it was Cameron, now it is Milliband.

    But the leader with the direst ratings and the worst outlook is Clegg. But like a zombie he staggers on going nowhere in particular.

    Odd.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    edited August 2013
    Are we seeing an inversion of 2012 when the wider economy struggled while the public finances seemed to do better?

    @notayesmansecon
    The UK public finances disappoint one more time "This was £1.3 billion higher than in July 2012 when it was £-0.8 billion (a surplus)"

    @dsmitheconomics
    Public sector net borrowing after adjustments £0.5bn in July, compares with a £0.8bn surplus in July 2012: http://ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/psa/public-sector-finances/july-2013/stb---july-2013.html …
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 45,176
    edited August 2013
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Apart from the wisdom (or lack) of portraying Ed as ruthless, it's a particularly clumsy simile since Stalin didn't have any extant brothers to shaft.

    The full quote is


    "Only a socialist could do that to his brother, only a socialist could regard familial ties as being so trivial as to shaft his own brother. I mean, unbelievable! Only lefties can think like that, They see people as discrete agents devoid of ties to society or to each other, and that's how Stalin could murder 20 million people."

    I was naively going by the Sun tweet, I hadn't realised that the actual quote was such a spittle-flecked, Godwinov rant. I hereby declare BoJo as the Platonic embodiment of PB Toryism.

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,774
    Jonathan said:

    The interesting thing about this party leader stuff is who we are not talking about. Earlier this year it was Cameron, now it is Milliband.

    But the leader with the direst ratings and the worst outlook is Clegg. But like a zombie he staggers on going nowhere in particular.

    Odd.

    Given what the ex Chief Exec of UKIP has said about Farage, we may be getting some Farage is crap stories.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    And into the trap filled with sharp sticks Labour falls

    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    No wonder Labour want to lower the voting age to 16. Their paymasters Unite now producing propaganda for schoolkids order-order.com/2013/08/21/uni…
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,338
    SouthamObserver said:

    tim said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Apart from the wisdom (or lack) of portraying Ed as ruthless, it's a particularly clumsy simile since Stalin didn't have any extant brothers to shaft.

    The full quote is


    "Only a socialist could do that to his brother, only a socialist could regard familial ties as being so trivial as to shaft his own brother. I mean, unbelievable! Only lefties can think like that, They see people as discrete agents devoid of ties to society or to each other, and that's how Stalin could murder 20 million people."

    Is Boris the man to lecture people about familial loyalty?

    He's an immigrant taking British people's jobs.

    Just like Ed.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,774
    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Apart from the wisdom (or lack) of portraying Ed as ruthless, it's a particularly clumsy simile since Stalin didn't have any extant brothers to shaft.

    The full quote is


    "Only a socialist could do that to his brother, only a socialist could regard familial ties as being so trivial as to shaft his own brother. I mean, unbelievable! Only lefties can think like that, They see people as discrete agents devoid of ties to society or to each other, and that's how Stalin could murder 20 million people."

    I was naively going by the Sun tweet, I hadn't realised that the actual quote was such a spittle-flecked, Godwinov rant. I hereby declare BoJo as the Platonic embodiment of PB Toryism.

    Godwinov rant.

    I love that.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Jonathan said:

    The interesting thing about this party leader stuff is who we are not talking about. Earlier this year it was Cameron, now it is Milliband.

    But the leader with the direst ratings and the worst outlook is Clegg. But like a zombie he staggers on going nowhere in particular.

    Odd.

    So you're saying the narrative on leaders can change with events?

    Interesting.


    LOL



    :)
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 47,089
    Peter_the_Punter said:

    David Miliband shafted himself.

    When James Purnell resigned from Brown's Cabinet, DM was expected to follow suit. So was Alan Johnson. They were both seduced by phone calls from Peter Mandelson, offering them security in the posts they most coveted - Foreign Secretary and Home Office respectively. They both took the bait. Had either failed to do so, Brown was probably gone. Both, and he was definitely gone.

    Next morning DM appeared briefly before the Press and pledged his alliegance to Brown. The moment was gone. Brown was safe, and DM's political future was henceforth tied to the doomed PM.

    It's all covered brilliantly in Rawnsley's 'End Of The Party'. Recommended.

    A very good reading of the situation. David Miliband probably thought he was behaving honourably in not betraying his leader. At that time, Ed Miliband did not have the position or power to perform a similar manoeuvre. I also wonder if any such manoeuvre on EM's part at that time would just have been seen as a stalking-horse for his brother?

    Things were slightly different after the 2010 GE. That does not stop the personal hurt that it must have caused the entire family. But families are all too easy to hurt, and time will hopefully heal.

    TBH, I'm not sure which was the 'better' brother to lead the party. DM is slightly more in tune with my politics than EM, but that's just a personal thing. EM has been utterly underwhelming as leader, but I can't honestly say DM would have been much better.

    All the leadership candidates were lacklustre; Labour desperately needs a new generation to come through. As do, to a lesser extent, the Conservatives.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    Here's Ed Balls attack line.

    Borrowing is going up.

    @dsmitheconomics
    Big picture on borrowing, pending revisions, is that deficit for April-July 2013, £36.8bn, a bit higher than April-July 2012, £35.2bn.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited August 2013
    Theuniondivvie said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Apart from the wisdom (or lack) of portraying Ed as ruthless, it's a particularly clumsy simile since Stalin didn't have any extant brothers to shaft.

    The full quote is


    "Only a socialist could do that to his brother, only a socialist could regard familial ties as being so trivial as to shaft his own brother. I mean, unbelievable! Only lefties can think like that, They see people as discrete agents devoid of ties to society or to each other, and that's how Stalin could murder 20 million people."

    I was naively going by the Sun tweet, I hadn't realised that the actual quote was such a spittle-flecked, Godwinov rant. I hereby declare BoJo as the Platonic embodiment of PB Toryism.

    You're not wrong.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj686CmGGSA

    ;^ )

  • Chris_WhitesideChris_Whiteside Posts: 17
    Yes, Boris is off-message. WIll the next thread be about the death of Queen Anne ?
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    dr_spyn said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    tim said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Apart from the wisdom (or lack) of portraying Ed as ruthless, it's a particularly clumsy simile since Stalin didn't have any extant brothers to shaft.

    The full quote is


    "Only a socialist could do that to his brother, only a socialist could regard familial ties as being so trivial as to shaft his own brother. I mean, unbelievable! Only lefties can think like that, They see people as discrete agents devoid of ties to society or to each other, and that's how Stalin could murder 20 million people."

    Is Boris the man to lecture people about familial loyalty?

    He's an immigrant taking British people's jobs.

    Just like Ed.

    No, Ed was born in the UK. Boris is an immigrant for the purposes of the "all jobs created in the UK go to immigrants" headlines that used to be so fondly and widely quoted on here.

  • richardDoddrichardDodd Posts: 5,472
    BenM..Has Balls cleared that attack line with his boss.. Yvette
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Chris_Whiteside said:

    Yes, Boris is off-message. WIll the next thread be about the death of Queen Anne ?

    Arf...!
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    Plato said:

    And into the trap filled with sharp sticks Labour falls

    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    No wonder Labour want to lower the voting age to 16. Their paymasters Unite now producing propaganda for schoolkids order-order.com/2013/08/21/uni…

    Indeed. That will clearly be a game-changer, shifting tens of thousands of votes.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,066
    A successful PM doesn't have to have leadership abilities.

    Look at John Major.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    SouthamObserver said:

    Plato said:

    And into the trap filled with sharp sticks Labour falls

    CCHQ Press Office @RicHolden
    No wonder Labour want to lower the voting age to 16. Their paymasters Unite now producing propaganda for schoolkids order-order.com/2013/08/21/uni…

    Indeed. That will clearly be a game-changer, shifting tens of thousands of votes.

    You dare mock the hilariously incompetent CCHQ spinners? On your own head be it! ;^ )

  • JonCJonC Posts: 67
    How on earth is government spending STILL going up by 3.7%?

    Tax receipts growing nicely though, so if the government actually ever DO get round to making some cuts, the deficit should start coming down at a pace.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Roger said:

    A successful PM doesn't have to have leadership abilities.

    Look at John Major.

    Are you measuring success on the Edwina Currie scale or the incompetence metric?


  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,338
    SO - just because Our Lord was born in a stable doesn't make him a horse.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,421
    I work with Mr Gilpin's brother. For bitcoins, I will reveal the inner secrets of UKIP.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    dr_spyn said:

    SO - just because Our Lord was born in a stable doesn't make him a horse.

    It does for the purposes of dodgy immigration stats.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    How about Vince Cable comparing Gordon to Stalin? :"From Stalin to Mr. Bean"
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    SouthamObserver said:



    He's an immigrant taking British people's jobs.

    Like Ed British Jobs For British Workers Miliband aka Chris Bryant?

    We can all play this silly game.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    How about Vince Cable comparing Gordon to Stalin? :"From Stalin to Mr. Bean"

    You didn't get the joke Sunil? Unfortunate. It was a very good one just so you know.

    :)

  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,066
    edited August 2013
    @Mick

    "Are you measuring success on the Edwina Currie scale or the incompetence metric?"

    It was a joke but after I posted it I remembered that like everything Tory on here JM is revered.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    Mick_Pork said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    How about Vince Cable comparing Gordon to Stalin? :"From Stalin to Mr. Bean"

    You didn't get the joke Sunil? Unfortunate. It was a very good one just so you know.

    :)

    But Gordon was weak, weak, weak too! (see OGH's thread title)
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    Have we covered the ComRes/ITV poll? I posted it last night and no one seemed to notice.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,338
    Tim how on earth is my comment anti Semitic? The remark is attributed to Arthur Wellesley...

    I would suggest you retract it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Good summary from Isabel Hardman on the Miranda case:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/08/the-two-political-sides-in-the-miranda-debate/


    This is really the nub of the debate, whether or not you think the laws themselves are appropriate. Were the right laws used, and with the right checks and balances?
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    Jonathan said:

    The interesting thing about this party leader stuff is who we are not talking about. Earlier this year it was Cameron, now it is Milliband.

    But the leader with the direst ratings and the worst outlook is Clegg. But like a zombie he staggers on going nowhere in particular.

    Odd.

    Barlett for President as an avatar? Are you implying a TV character would be better than EdM for Labour? :^ )
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,272
    Rudd seems to be winning the crucial town hall debate against Abbott tonight, Abbott looking flustered and even told Rudd to 'shut up'. Rudd looking calm and hitting Abbott on spending cuts, corporate welfare etc and the worms also seem more in Rudd's favour across the board than the first debate. Game on!
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    Plato said:

    SouthamObserver said:



    He's an immigrant taking British people's jobs.

    Like Ed British Jobs For British Workers Miliband aka Chris Bryant?

    We can all play this silly game.

    The silly bit is to believe headlines claiming all jobs created in the UK go to immigrants. Some of us never took those seriously. Others did.

  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,338
    @Tim I asked you to retract the slur re anti semitism.

    I am disappointed that you are now trying a slur with 'classic Neo Nazi line'. Please desist.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    edited August 2013
    Plato said:

    Jonathan said:

    The interesting thing about this party leader stuff is who we are not talking about. Earlier this year it was Cameron, now it is Milliband.

    But the leader with the direst ratings and the worst outlook is Clegg. But like a zombie he staggers on going nowhere in particular.

    Odd.

    Barlett for President as an avatar? Are you implying a TV character would be better than EdM for Labour? :^ )
    Just finished the West Wing, it's a tribute to some great entertainment. Season two is some of the best TV bar none.

    But you're right in a way. Real US politics is currently soooooo much more interesting than UK politics. Let alone the fictional stuff. And all UK parties could do with a Bartlett right now.

    I am not sure the adventures of Cam,Nick or Ed would merit a box set.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Plato said:

    Have we covered the ComRes/ITV poll? I posted it last night and no one seemed to notice.

    Details aren't up yet - but here's ITV's take:

    http://www.itv.com/news/story/2013-08-20/ed-miliband-labour-leadership/#quarter-of-adults-believe-ed-miliband-can-be-ruthless_248782

    Including:


    "A quarter of British adults believe that Labour leader Ed Miliband can be ruthless when he wants to be, according to the ITV News Index.....32 per cent disagreed with the statement and 43 per cent didn't know."
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,318
    CarlottaVance said:

    Good summary from Isabel Hardman on the Miranda case:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/08/the-two-political-sides-in-the-miranda-debate/


    This is really the nub of the debate, whether or not you think the laws themselves are appropriate. Were the right laws used, and with the right checks and balances?

    I tried to post a link to "another publication" but my comment was disappeared....

    perhaps this is more acceptable, giving a good analysis:

    jackofkent.com/blog/

    Wow PB Mods, what did I contravene last time?!?
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    How about Vince Cable comparing Gordon to Stalin? :"From Stalin to Mr. Bean"

    You didn't get the joke Sunil? Unfortunate. It was a very good one just so you know.

    :)

    But Gordon was weak, weak, weak too! (see OGH's thread title)
    Not "too" Sunil. The point of the joke was how ridiculous it was to compare him to Stalin and how much more apt the Mr Bean tag was. That's why it's one of the classic commons put-downs that will always be remembered.

    If it hadn't already been used by Vince Cable then Cammie would have loved to use it himself. It's telling that it was Cable who was most incisive and not the official opposition of the tories at the time. Cable knows a fair bit about labour so he was aware what Brown's own MPs were saying as well as what the mood of the country was. Hence it's damaging effect as a quip. Same with omnishambles. That one hurt Osbrowne and Cammie severely. CCHQ just hasn't honed in on little Ed and it seems Crosby is too busy dog whistling to come up with anything good. In fact Cammie's own PR machine usually provides their own lethal lines that backfire like "we're all in this together".

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    Oh dear

    Tweets MPs Delete @deletedbyMPs
    DT @tom_watson: Thanks Eoin. I really appreciate you standing out like this. It means a very great deal ... pltw.ps/1aqCByG < DM fail
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited August 2013
    Jonathan said:


    I am not sure the adventures of Cam,Nick or Ed would merit a box set.

    Me neither!
  • PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 667
    TOPPING said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Good summary from Isabel Hardman on the Miranda case:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/08/the-two-political-sides-in-the-miranda-debate/


    This is really the nub of the debate, whether or not you think the laws themselves are appropriate. Were the right laws used, and with the right checks and balances?

    I tried to post a link to "another publication" but my comment was disappeared....

    perhaps this is more acceptable, giving a good analysis:

    jackofkent.com/blog/

    Wow PB Mods, what did I contravene last time?!?
    Your link also contained a substantial discussion about phone hacking, and was removed.
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    tim said:

    Sky News ‏@SkyNews
    Surprise Deficit In July A Blow To Osborne http://news.sky.com/story/1131379/surprise-deficit-in-july-a-blow-to-osborne …


    I thought Francis Maude and co had saved untold billions, maybe it was all in their heads.

    It was revised up last year by over a billion pounds.
  • redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    HYUFD said:

    Rudd seems to be winning the crucial town hall debate against Abbott tonight, Abbott looking flustered and even told Rudd to 'shut up'. Rudd looking calm and hitting Abbott on spending cuts, corporate welfare etc and the worms also seem more in Rudd's favour across the board than the first debate. Game on!
    http://www.abc.net.au/news/abcnews24/

    the worm always favour Rudd. Qld latest poll 57-43 for abbott and I do not see too many questions from white collar workers, and remember money for women who have children is very popular, bout time too.
    marginal seats last time are under 1.10 and labour 10 dollars plus to win. That sums up the outcome.

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,052
    And the Good News keeps.. oh wait crap figures for July.

    Avery where are you ?
  • Ishmael_XIshmael_X Posts: 3,664
    Mick_Pork said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    How about Vince Cable comparing Gordon to Stalin? :"From Stalin to Mr. Bean"

    You didn't get the joke Sunil? Unfortunate. It was a very good one just so you know.

    :)

    But Gordon was weak, weak, weak too! (see OGH's thread title)
    Not "too" Sunil. The point of the joke was how ridiculous it was to compare him to Stalin and how much more apt the Mr Bean tag was. That's why it's one of the classic commons put-downs that will always be remembered.

    If it hadn't already been used by Vince Cable then Cammie would have loved to use it himself. It's telling that it was Cable who was most incisive and not the official opposition of the tories at the time. Cable knows a fair bit about labour so he was aware what Brown's own MPs were saying as well as what the mood of the country was. Hence it's damaging effect as a quip. Same with omnishambles. That one hurt Osbrowne and Cammie severely. CCHQ just hasn't honed in on little Ed and it seems Crosby is too busy dog whistling to come up with anything good. In fact Cammie's own PR machine usually provides their own lethal lines that backfire like "we're all in this together".

    Hate to be difficult but please write "homed in", not "honed in".

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    But here's old Ken - he's been crass, he's been insensitive and thuggish and brutal in his language - but I don't think actually if you read what he said, although it was extraordinary and rude, I don't think he was actually anti-Semitic.
    - Boris on Ken Livingstone, "Quotes of the Day", The Times, 18 February 2005, p. 2.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,795
    JosiasJessop said:

    Peter_the_Punter said:

    David Miliband shafted himself.

    When James Purnell resigned from Brown's Cabinet, DM was expected to follow suit. So was Alan Johnson. They were both seduced by phone calls from Peter Mandelson, offering them security in the posts they most coveted - Foreign Secretary and Home Office respectively. They both took the bait. Had either failed to do so, Brown was probably gone. Both, and he was definitely gone.

    Next morning DM appeared briefly before the Press and pledged his alliegance to Brown. The moment was gone. Brown was safe, and DM's political future was henceforth tied to the doomed PM.

    It's all covered brilliantly in Rawnsley's 'End Of The Party'. Recommended.

    A very good reading of the situation. David Miliband probably thought he was behaving honourably in not betraying his leader. At that time, Ed Miliband did not have the position or power to perform a similar manoeuvre. I also wonder if any such manoeuvre on EM's part at that time would just have been seen as a stalking-horse for his brother?

    Things were slightly different after the 2010 GE. That does not stop the personal hurt that it must have caused the entire family. But families are all too easy to hurt, and time will hopefully heal.

    TBH, I'm not sure which was the 'better' brother to lead the party. DM is slightly more in tune with my politics than EM, but that's just a personal thing. EM has been utterly underwhelming as leader, but I can't honestly say DM would have been much better.

    All the leadership candidates were lacklustre; Labour desperately needs a new generation to come through. As do, to a lesser extent, the Conservatives.
    Thank you, JJ.

    Happy to say that I agree with most of what you say too. And what's more, my politics would also be slightly closer to David than Ed.

    Ed M was firmly in the Brown camp, so it would have been very difficult for him to rebel, and as you rightly say, it wouldn't have had the same effect. DM was more Blairite, and the obvious rallying point for rebels. I doubt it was honor that stayed his hand though - more probably a 'career call'. He got it wrong. Obvious now, but less so at the time.

    I couldn't agree more about the lacklustre bunch - both sides of the House, but probably more so on the Labour side.

  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Ishmael_X said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    Mick_Pork said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    How about Vince Cable comparing Gordon to Stalin? :"From Stalin to Mr. Bean"

    You didn't get the joke Sunil? Unfortunate. It was a very good one just so you know.

    :)

    But Gordon was weak, weak, weak too! (see OGH's thread title)
    Not "too" Sunil. The point of the joke was how ridiculous it was to compare him to Stalin and how much more apt the Mr Bean tag was. That's why it's one of the classic commons put-downs that will always be remembered.

    If it hadn't already been used by Vince Cable then Cammie would have loved to use it himself. It's telling that it was Cable who was most incisive and not the official opposition of the tories at the time. Cable knows a fair bit about labour so he was aware what Brown's own MPs were saying as well as what the mood of the country was. Hence it's damaging effect as a quip. Same with omnishambles. That one hurt Osbrowne and Cammie severely. CCHQ just hasn't honed in on little Ed and it seems Crosby is too busy dog whistling to come up with anything good. In fact Cammie's own PR machine usually provides their own lethal lines that backfire like "we're all in this together".

    Hate to be difficult but please write "homed in", not "honed in".


    No.


  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,052
    tim said:

    Grandiose said:

    tim said:

    Sky News ‏@SkyNews
    Surprise Deficit In July A Blow To Osborne http://news.sky.com/story/1131379/surprise-deficit-in-july-a-blow-to-osborne …


    I thought Francis Maude and co had saved untold billions, maybe it was all in their heads.

    It was revised up last year by over a billion pounds.
    If the same happens this year then deficit reduction is stalled and govt spending is up..

    So what's the point of this govt then?
    How do you introduce "austerity" and fail so badly?

    Probably the same way as Labour claim it's cuts cuts cuts when it's not. Can somebody on the Left make their mind up is this an austerity government or one which spends ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    Alanbrooke said:

    And the Good News keeps.. oh wait crap figures for July.

    Avery where are you ?

    Note: The subject Avery DOESN'T respond to the stimulus as predicted???
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,566
    Absolutely, and framing Ed Miliband as weak and effectual even after he shafted his own brother reminds us yet again of how Brown did exactly the same to Blair. And like Brown before him, Ed Miliband has been found to be weak, dithering and totally out of his depth as Labour Leader. He has no idea whatsoever about what he represents to his own party, never mind the country.
    Slackbladder said:

    Not really mike, you can be weak and ruthless at the same time. Macbeth for example..

  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,318
    edited August 2013
    PBModerator said:

    TOPPING said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Good summary from Isabel Hardman on the Miranda case:

    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2013/08/the-two-political-sides-in-the-miranda-debate/


    This is really the nub of the debate, whether or not you think the laws themselves are appropriate. Were the right laws used, and with the right checks and balances?

    I tried to post a link to "another publication" but my comment was disappeared....

    perhaps this is more acceptable, giving a good analysis:

    jackofkent.com/blog/

    Wow PB Mods, what did I contravene last time?!?
    Your link also contained a substantial discussion about phone hacking, and was removed.
    Ahh...missed that, apols.

    As far as I can see (your personal Miranda case correspondent here): the issue turns on whether questioning someone under S.7 about possible offences under S.58A (concerning publishing or communicatings information about an individual who is or has been a member of HM forces or intelligence services) is appropriate and/or legal or do they have to jump straight to questioning (and arrest?) under S.58A.

    to repost the link incl comments that is illuminating:

    jackofkent.com/2013/08/nine-hours-in-the-life-of-david-miranda/#comments

    So there.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    JonC said:

    Tax receipts growing nicely though, so if the government actually ever DO get round to making some cuts, the deficit should start coming down at a pace.

    The problem (and paradox) is that cuts can lead to increased spending. If the government stops buying paperclips, then paperclip workers will lose their jobs, so that spending on benefits goes up. This comes under the heading of "automatic stabilisers". If the paperclip factory was in a one-industry town, the knock-on effects (less spending in cafes and shops) can become very expensive very quickly.

    Or the government can cut the civil service, but then hire private sector consultants to do the work previously done by civil servants. This happens quite often.

    Or the government can cut quangos. The problem here is that a lot of small quangos are little more than a handful of academics quaffing tea and biscuits on expenses, so bringing the work in-house to the civil service costs more.

  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 55,931
    "I advise you all very strongly - go for a run, get some exercise, and have a beautiful day."
    - Boris quoted by Valentine Low, "Shiver me timbers Boris", Evening Standard, 15 November 2004, p. 3.

  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    tim said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    tim said:

    Grandiose said:

    tim said:

    Sky News ‏@SkyNews
    Surprise Deficit In July A Blow To Osborne http://news.sky.com/story/1131379/surprise-deficit-in-july-a-blow-to-osborne …


    I thought Francis Maude and co had saved untold billions, maybe it was all in their heads.

    It was revised up last year by over a billion pounds.
    If the same happens this year then deficit reduction is stalled and govt spending is up..

    So what's the point of this govt then?
    How do you introduce "austerity" and fail so badly?

    Probably the same way as Labour claim it's cuts cuts cuts when it's not. Can somebody on the Left make their mind up is this an austerity government or one which spends ?
    It's an incompetent govt that tries to cut spending but does it so poorly that spending goes up.

    Look at the figures Francis Maude makes up, yesterday he was claiming

    "Francis Maude: Measures to cut fraud have saved £6.5billion"

    In june it was

    "£8 billion savings target for 2012 to 2013 exceeded by 25%"

    But spending goes up.
    Perhaps this has something to do with it.

    "Government spent £800million on temporary staff despite redundancies
    The Government spent up to £800 million bringing in consultants and temporary staff last year to do the same job civil servants who had been laid off with big payouts, it has been claimed."
    Actually that's another Maude cut by 75% claim.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 80,113
    tim said:

    dr_spyn said:

    SO - just because Our Lord was born in a stable doesn't make him a horse.

    The classic anti semitic line peddled by a PB Tory.
    So I guess you think Michael Howard and Grant Shapps are "un-British" too do you.

    Labour, circa 2005, wrote the book on how to conduct a racist, anti-semitic campaign.
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,052
    tim said:

    Alanbrooke said:

    tim said:

    Grandiose said:

    tim said:

    Sky News ‏@SkyNews
    Surprise Deficit In July A Blow To Osborne http://news.sky.com/story/1131379/surprise-deficit-in-july-a-blow-to-osborne …


    I thought Francis Maude and co had saved untold billions, maybe it was all in their heads.

    It was revised up last year by over a billion pounds.
    If the same happens this year then deficit reduction is stalled and govt spending is up..

    So what's the point of this govt then?
    How do you introduce "austerity" and fail so badly?

    Probably the same way as Labour claim it's cuts cuts cuts when it's not. Can somebody on the Left make their mind up is this an austerity government or one which spends ?
    It's an incompetent govt that tries to cut spending but does it so poorly that spending goes up.

    Look at the figures Francis Maude makes up, yesterday he was claiming

    "Francis Maude: Measures to cut fraud have saved £6.5billion"

    In june it was

    "£8 billion savings target for 2012 to 2013 exceeded by 25%"

    But spending goes up.
    Perhaps this has something to do with it.

    "Government spent £800million on temporary staff despite redundancies
    The Government spent up to £800 million bringing in consultants and temporary staff last year to do the same job civil servants who had been laid off with big payouts, it has been claimed."
    Just waffle tim.

    if spending is going up then the government isn't pushing austerity. If it's coming down you might have a point, but you'd follow that up by saying you want to spend more.

    Balls has screwed up the economic positioning for Labour and Miliband has let him.

    Labour to date have said nothing worthwhile on the economy. They need to start with an apology for screwing things up so monumentally last time.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    tim said:


    Look at the figures Francis Maude makes up, yesterday he was claiming

    "Francis Maude: Measures to cut fraud have saved £6.5billion"

    In june it was

    "£8 billion savings target for 2012 to 2013 exceeded by 25%"

    Maybe he's measuring it in Jerrycans? Or perhaps Oliver Nitwit is feeding him the info?

  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    It's too early for recent improvements in the economy to be reflected in tax receipts in full. Also, tim, the number of people who are noticing cuts affecting public services is falling.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    fitalass said:

    Absolutely, and framing Ed Miliband as weak and effectual even after he shafted his own brother reminds us yet again of how Brown did exactly the same to Blair.

    Brown did not do exactly the same thing to Blair: pretty much the complete opposite, in fact. Following the Granita agreement, Brown stood aside for Blair. This is not like Ed standing and winning against David Miliband. And in the following years, Brown kept away from foreign policy and Blair from economic policy. Problems came only a decade after Granita when Blair did not step down.

    The only thing in common is your dislike for both men.

  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,066
    edited August 2013
    It's odd for a Tory to want to discuss 'shafting' leaders and would be leaders with their history. I thought Fitilass's excitable post was a spoof until I remembered that Fitilass doesn't do humour.

    But just to remind those who see everything through a partisan prism Maggie was 'shafted' by half her party and four fiths of her cabinet.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Pulpstar said:

    tim said:

    dr_spyn said:

    SO - just because Our Lord was born in a stable doesn't make him a horse.

    The classic anti semitic line peddled by a PB Tory.
    So I guess you think Michael Howard and Grant Shapps are "un-British" too do you.

    Labour, circa 2005, wrote the book on how to conduct a racist, anti-semitic campaign.
    Immigration: are you thinking what we're thinking? Except that was the Conservatives, wasn't it? Lynton Crosby: whatever happened to him?
  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    He,he! The silly season is coming to an end and Osbo will now be in the spotlight:

    Osborne's deficit keeps growing
    Despite the return of growth and no shortage of austerity, the deficit was £1.3bn higher in July than at the same point last year.

    http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/08/osbornes-deficit-keeps-growing
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Off topic. Any strong PB views on motorway top speeds?

    I have been on holiday recently and driven in the UK, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany and NL. The top speeds on motorways are:

    UK 113 kmh
    France 130 kmh
    Belgium 120 kmh
    Luxembourg 120 kmh
    Germany No top limit!
    NL 130 kmh

    (No doubt some PB geek will correct me but these are what I noticed. And sorry for using kmh not mph but only converting UK speeds is easier)

    The French, Dutch and German motorways are great, nicely surfaced, fast and and easy. Belgium is a bumpy horror story. Luxembourg isn't big or flat enough to achieve more than 120!

    The UK is the same as the good three - only SLOW. Why oh why is our motorway speed limit so damned low? Couldn't we emulate the sensible and safe Germans and let people go as fast as they want but prosecute dangerous driving. Really, 70 mph on a flat clear stretch is just too slow for a motorway.

    I'd propose we set to 90mph and then rigidly enforce it - rather than having a silly limit that is widely ignored. I suspect this would play very well politically too. (Cue nannystater outrage)
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,566
    That is now a built in regular feature of UKIP internal politics, along with a high turn over of people who have come in and enthusiastically tried to bring some discipline and organisation to the UKIP party operation, only to then leave disillusioned and critical of Farage.
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Jonathan said:

    The interesting thing about this party leader stuff is who we are not talking about. Earlier this year it was Cameron, now it is Milliband.

    But the leader with the direst ratings and the worst outlook is Clegg. But like a zombie he staggers on going nowhere in particular.

    Odd.

    Given what the ex Chief Exec of UKIP has said about Farage, we may be getting some Farage is crap stories.

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    But here's old Ken - he's been crass, he's been insensitive and thuggish and brutal in his language - but I don't think actually if you read what he said, although it was extraordinary and rude, I don't think he was actually anti-Semitic.
    - Boris on Ken Livingstone, "Quotes of the Day", The Times, 18 February 2005, p. 2.

    In this Boris was completely wrong. Livingstone, by his writings and utterances shows that he is the complete anti-semite.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    fitalass said:

    Absolutely, and framing Ed Miliband as weak and effectual even after he shafted his own brother reminds us yet again of how Brown did exactly the same to Blair.

    Brown did not do exactly the same thing to Blair: pretty much the complete opposite, in fact. Following the Granita agreement, Brown stood aside for Blair. This is not like Ed standing and winning against David Miliband. And in the following years, Brown kept away from foreign policy and Blair from economic policy. Problems came only a decade after Granita when Blair did not step down.

    The only thing in common is your dislike for both men.


    It's sadly predictable that some of the PB tories don't remember which other chancellor agreed not to stand and instead supported the leadership of a potential rival. The clue is in the word Osbrowne. As usual. :)
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 26,052
    tim said:

    And what is the govt left with now it's failed on spending and deficit reduction?

    Ed Conway ‏@EdConwaySky
    New Zealand central bank has slapped restrictions on >80% LTV mortgages. Here in UK Help 2 Buy encourages people to buy home with 5% deposit

    That's it guys, no more rebalancing, no March of the Makers, no spending restraint, just a taxpayer subsidised housing boom between now and the election.

    And while everyone else's living standards fall Osborne gives his mates a big gift.

    City bankers grab £65million by delaying bonuses to beat tax: Number of payments doubled in April
    City workers took full advantage of George Osborne's tax cut this year
    Tax on earnings over £150,000 cut from 50 to 45 per cent from April 6
    Bankers waited to taker their bonuses, slashing tax bill


    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2398591/Bankers-grab-65million-delaying-bonuses-beat-tax-Payments-doubled-April.html#ixzz2cazt3uq1
    Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

    Open goal and Labour can't score.

    Ed Balls takes penalties for England.
  • RandomRandom Posts: 107
    tim said:

    dr_spyn said:

    @Tim I asked you to retract the slur re anti semitism.

    I am disappointed that you are now trying a slur with 'classic Neo Nazi line'. Please desist.

    So what did you mean re the horse/stable line, you must know it's a classic neo Nazi line that an immigrant who isn't aryan can't be British.
    I'd prefer not to link to sites to show you, but in what context were you using it regarding Miliband?



    The line was coined around 1830 or so by Daniel O'Connell to describe the Duke of Wellington (though most people these days think it was Wellington himself who coined it) - neo-nazis have got sweet FA to do with it, for the simple reason that that was almost a century before there were any Nazis, neo or otherwise. You do owe Dr Spyn an apology, although I wouldn't advise him to hold his breath waiting for one.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,066
    Patrick. I agree. Crazy limit. I recently drove to Edinburgh and sat behind a lorry trying to overtake another the whole manoeuvre taking over five miles to complete.The outside lane being bumper to bumper with cars doing 70. I might as well have been navigating The country lanes of Ludlow
  • flangeflange Posts: 8
    Patrick said:

    Off topic. Any strong PB views on motorway top speeds?

    I have been on holiday recently and driven in the UK, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany and NL. The top speeds on motorways are:

    UK 113 kmh
    France 130 kmh
    Belgium 120 kmh
    Luxembourg 120 kmh
    Germany No top limit!
    NL 130 kmh

    (No doubt some PB geek will correct me but these are what I noticed. And sorry for using kmh not mph but only converting UK speeds is easier)

    The French, Dutch and German motorways are great, nicely surfaced, fast and and easy. Belgium is a bumpy horror story. Luxembourg isn't big or flat enough to achieve more than 120!

    The UK is the same as the good three - only SLOW. Why oh why is our motorway speed limit so damned low? Couldn't we emulate the sensible and safe Germans and let people go as fast as they want but prosecute dangerous driving. Really, 70 mph on a flat clear stretch is just too slow for a motorway.

    I'd propose we set to 90mph and then rigidly enforce it - rather than having a silly limit that is widely ignored. I suspect this would play very well politically too. (Cue nannystater outrage)

    France have a lower limit in poorer weather conditions (110kmh). They enforce them rigidly as well with some whopping on-the-spot fines. Don't forget the French also have a fairly extensive toll road network.

    To use a UK motorway you have to pass a test that contains no actual experience on these roads. Germany has a much more rigorous test and licensing process as far as I'm aware, and they're rather more ingrained against things like tailgating.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Without particularly wanting to get involved in who is or isnt antisemitic on PB, it does occur to me that there is at least a possibility of Respect or similar party benefitting from an antisemitic vote in some constituencies when Labour has an ethnically jewish leader.

    EdM does seem to stay out of Middle East politics, which seems wise.
    Pulpstar said:

    tim said:

    dr_spyn said:

    SO - just because Our Lord was born in a stable doesn't make him a horse.

    The classic anti semitic line peddled by a PB Tory.
    So I guess you think Michael Howard and Grant Shapps are "un-British" too do you.

    Labour, circa 2005, wrote the book on how to conduct a racist, anti-semitic campaign.
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,475
    Betfair odds, 5th Test at Oval:

    England: 29/20
    Australia: 19/10
    Draw: 19/10

    http://www.betfair.com/sport#u=/sport/cricket
  • Andy_JSAndy_JS Posts: 37,475
    Patrick said:

    Off topic. Any strong PB views on motorway top speeds?

    I have been on holiday recently and driven in the UK, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany and NL. The top speeds on motorways are:

    UK 113 kmh
    France 130 kmh
    Belgium 120 kmh
    Luxembourg 120 kmh
    Germany No top limit!
    NL 130 kmh

    (No doubt some PB geek will correct me but these are what I noticed. And sorry for using kmh not mph but only converting UK speeds is easier)

    The French, Dutch and German motorways are great, nicely surfaced, fast and and easy. Belgium is a bumpy horror story. Luxembourg isn't big or flat enough to achieve more than 120!

    The UK is the same as the good three - only SLOW. Why oh why is our motorway speed limit so damned low? Couldn't we emulate the sensible and safe Germans and let people go as fast as they want but prosecute dangerous driving. Really, 70 mph on a flat clear stretch is just too slow for a motorway.

    I'd propose we set to 90mph and then rigidly enforce it - rather than having a silly limit that is widely ignored. I suspect this would play very well politically too. (Cue nannystater outrage)

    I think our approach is quite good actually — an official speed limit of 70 mph but in reality allowing people to go up to 80.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 130,272
    redcliffe62 - NO the worm does not always favour Rudd, Abbott won the C7 worm last time. Second, polls are all over the place, Essential Research had it 50-50 this week, Galaxy 52-48. Morgan 51-49, only one bad newspoll for the ALP taken last week seems to have given Abbott such a big boost. Morgan actually has Queensland tighter than 2010. Rudd hammered Abbott on spending cuts and his unreleased costings sticking with the theme of recent ALP ads, gay marriage too came up tonight. Abbott also told Rudd to 'shut up' already leading the bulletins and unprofessional. In 1993 it was Keating's debate win over Hewson which arguably saw him home, this election is not over yet!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 21,066
    edited August 2013
    Topping. interesting post (as most of yours are). Can I ask what your username was before Topping or do you want a new identity without a history? Another interesting 'new' poster is Carl. He's obviously been here before but lefty posters are so rare I should be able to remember who he was. Very good poster nonetheless.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 40,054
    flange said:

    Patrick said:

    Off topic. Any strong PB views on motorway top speeds?

    I have been on holiday recently and driven in the UK, France, Belgium, Luxembourg, Germany and NL. The top speeds on motorways are:

    UK 113 kmh
    France 130 kmh
    Belgium 120 kmh
    Luxembourg 120 kmh
    Germany No top limit!
    NL 130 kmh

    (No doubt some PB geek will correct me but these are what I noticed. And sorry for using kmh not mph but only converting UK speeds is easier)

    The French, Dutch and German motorways are great, nicely surfaced, fast and and easy. Belgium is a bumpy horror story. Luxembourg isn't big or flat enough to achieve more than 120!

    The UK is the same as the good three - only SLOW. Why oh why is our motorway speed limit so damned low? Couldn't we emulate the sensible and safe Germans and let people go as fast as they want but prosecute dangerous driving. Really, 70 mph on a flat clear stretch is just too slow for a motorway.

    I'd propose we set to 90mph and then rigidly enforce it - rather than having a silly limit that is widely ignored. I suspect this would play very well politically too. (Cue nannystater outrage)

    France have a lower limit in poorer weather conditions (110kmh). They enforce them rigidly as well with some whopping on-the-spot fines. Don't forget the French also have a fairly extensive toll road network.

    To use a UK motorway you have to pass a test that contains no actual experience on these roads. Germany has a much more rigorous test and licensing process as far as I'm aware, and they're rather more ingrained against things like tailgating.

    I haven't driven in Germany much, but from what i remember there were large stretches of motorway where there were designated speed limits, and if you went over then they came down on you like a ton of bricks.

    Having done a lot of driving in the US this summer our speed limit has become a lot more attractive. And anyone who complains about 70 mph should try Norway. It is soooo sloooow there.
  • RandomRandom Posts: 107
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    Pulpstar said:

    tim said:

    dr_spyn said:

    SO - just because Our Lord was born in a stable doesn't make him a horse.

    The classic anti semitic line peddled by a PB Tory.
    So I guess you think Michael Howard and Grant Shapps are "un-British" too do you.

    Labour, circa 2005, wrote the book on how to conduct a racist, anti-semitic campaign.
    Immigration: are you thinking what we're thinking? Except that was the Conservatives, wasn't it? Lynton Crosby: whatever happened to him?
    I think what Pulpstar had in mind was more the posters dogwhistling the "don't vote Tory because Michael Howard is a thieving Jew" message Labour produced.

    http://stephentall.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/Michael_Howard_Hypnotist-vi-300x150.jpg
This discussion has been closed.

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