politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Why the Brexit divisions are here to stay
Comments
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Please read one of the academic analyses on the voters before spraying us with your fake views. And no, I won’t post it. Look it up on Google.AmpfieldAndy said:
Risible really. Why did so many inner city residents, rather than commuters, vote Remain. They don’t work in global industries by and large. Doesn’t explain why financial services practioners like Odey or Hargreaves support Leave either.Gardenwalker said:
Moreover, Remainers tend to work in globalised sectors of the economy, ie those that bring them more often into contact with workers from overseas and indeed working overseas thenselves.AmpfieldAndy said:
That’s why they are all so scared of having to fill in a few forms to work abroad is it ?Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
Your “commentary” reminds me why Remainers cannot reconcile themselves to Leaverdom (which at heart is a nihilist, anti-rationalist revolt steeped in nostalgia).
Your comments reek of why Remain lost.0 -
I don't remember anyone claiming that, but you'd hardly need a Venn Diagram to point out their error if they did.AmpfieldAndy said:
Not sure that is true of Remainers. They just want to be part of a different nation state don’t they - a United States of Europe. That’s why so many Remainers were proclaiming that they were European not British in the referendum campaign.ralphmalph said:I would take it up one more level than a tactical vote. I would say that leavers trust the nation state and the institutions of that state to provide for their future in the best way. Remainers have a distrust of the nation state and its institutions and so want external checks and balances to provide the best future for them. Cyclefree used to write good articles on this.
This is why the current party system is not answering the questions as Mr Meeks correctly IMV says, on this issue it is more than how much welfare spending do you want. It fundamentally is who do you want to control the welfare spending.
It will not go away because the beliefs are deeply held. Look at Irish unification, Scottish independence, Catalonia. Same basic belief systems.0 -
My father was the first in his family to go to university (in 1965) and he definitely voted Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.0 -
About £500k for a 3 bed semi here in St Albans.0
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But Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and London didn’t - different scale.ydoethur said:
Did they? Stoke, Bury, Bradford and Sunderland, off the top of my head, voted leave.AmpfieldAndy said:
Risible really. Why did so many inner city residents, rather than commuters, vote Remain. They don’t work in global industries by and large. Doesn’t explain why financial services practioners like Odey or Hargreaves support Leave either.Gardenwalker said:
Moreover, Remainers tend to work in globalised sectors of the economy, ie those that bring them more often into contact with workers from overseas and indeed working overseas thenselves.AmpfieldAndy said:
That’s why they are all so scared of having to fill in a few forms to work abroad is it ?Gardenwalker said:David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Your “commentary” reminds me why Remainers cannot reconcile themselves to Leaverdom (which at heart is a nihilist, anti-rationalist revolt steeped in nostalgia).
Your comments reek of why Remain lost.0 -
I don’t remember anyone claiming it either. Probably because they didn’t. Another one of AmfieldAndy’s fake views.Recidivist said:
I don't remember anyone claiming that, but you'd hardly need a Venn Diagram to point out their error if they did.AmpfieldAndy said:
Not sure that is true of Remainers. They just want to be part of a different nation state don’t they - a United States of Europe. That’s why so many Remainers were proclaiming that they were European not British in the referendum campaign.ralphmalph said:I would take it up one more level than a tactical vote. I would say that leavers trust the nation state and the institutions of that state to provide for their future in the best way. Remainers have a distrust of the nation state and its institutions and so want external checks and balances to provide the best future for them. Cyclefree used to write good articles on this.
This is why the current party system is not answering the questions as Mr Meeks correctly IMV says, on this issue it is more than how much welfare spending do you want. It fundamentally is who do you want to control the welfare spending.
It will not go away because the beliefs are deeply held. Look at Irish unification, Scottish independence, Catalonia. Same basic belief systems.0 -
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.0 -
Though of course, these are not blanket rules. My father left school at 15 (in 1950) and he also definitely voted Remain.ydoethur said:
My father was the first in his family to go to university (in 1965) and he definitely voted Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.0 -
So what we're saying is you need to either earn nearly double the national average salary or have a hundred grand saved up. To afford a three bed in Luton.ydoethur said:
And so does mine.Sean_F said:
On checking, it's more like £190 k here, but the point stands.ydoethur said:
That would be a high price here, a low price in Gloucestershire, not even an option in most of Devon, and extortionate in Stoke.Sean_F said:
In Luton, you could get a three bed house for. £170K. Most of the country is similar. London, and other hotspots, are outliers.kyf_100 said:
You beat me to it, was going to make that exact point.Philip_Thompson said:A lot of people wanting to get on the housing ladder would see a 30% drop in house prices as desirable with or without Brexit.
Lower house prices are not a bug of brexit, they are a feature.
A worrying feature for those of us with large mortgages, but an absolute boon to the huge numbers of people who've seen the housing ladder slip away from them in the last fifteen years or so, the fault of successive Conservative and Labour governments.
Outside of a few outlying areas, usually low income, low job opportunity areas, I doubt you would be able to buy a family sized home for less than 250k these days. You might get a one or two bed flat, but how are you going to start a family and raise kids in that?
And the thought of saving for a 25k deposit while you're paying through the nose to rent some grotty little place? A laughable idea to many renters.
A quick way to look foolish is to generalise about house prices.
Edit - incidentally, unless you have very substantial savings, you will not get a sufficient mortgage for a 190k house on much less than a £50k salary.
And by 'substantial' I mean roughly £100k.
This seems like a good moment to take my case out and rest it for a moment.0 -
Any your views are not fake - very funny.Gardenwalker said:
Please read one of the academic analyses on the voters before spraying us with your fake views. And no, I won’t post it. Look it up on Google.AmpfieldAndy said:
Risible really. Why did so many inner city residents, rather than commuters, vote Remain. They don’t work in global industries by and large. Doesn’t explain why financial services practioners like Odey or Hargreaves support Leave either.Gardenwalker said:
Moreover, Remainers tend to work in globalised sectors of the economy, ie those that bring them more often into contact with workers from overseas and indeed working overseas thenselves.AmpfieldAndy said:
That’s why they are all so scared of having to fill in a few forms to work abroad is it ?Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
Your “commentary” reminds me why Remainers cannot reconcile themselves to Leaverdom (which at heart is a nihilist, anti-rationalist revolt steeped in nostalgia).
Your comments reek of why Remain lost.0 -
Cyclefree said:
If we revoke A50 will we be able to resubmit it?RoyalBlue said:Cyclefree said:
Revocation, as I have said ad nauseam, maintains the status quo. It buys the country much needed time for the country to come to a considered view about what it wants to do, knowing now what withdrawal deal is on offer from the EU, given the red lines May has laid down. It gives the country time to decide whether it agrees with those &, if not, change them. It gives time to prepare. And it gives the country the opportunity to decide whether it really wants to go ahead with the decision it took nearly three years ago.
The plain fact is that, as far as we can tell, there is no settled view in Parliament about how to leave. There isn't even a settled view on this in Cabinet, for God's sake. So pressing the Pause button, taking a deep breath & thinking again - & hard - is not some evil plot against the voters or against democracy. It may well be the least worst option. If the settled view is for leave then let's try & do it like grown ups. Leaving may well be a mistake (or not). But we could earn some credit by the manner of our departure. We are not currently doing so.
The more Leavers bang on about the referendum & set their face against another referendum, the more I wonder whether some of them are doing so because they are worried that were the voters to look again at their decision in the light of what we now know they might change their mind.
Nothing is easy here. I'll admit.0 -
Yet you can't see through the fake claims of remain.....Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
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First time buyers wanting such s home would mostly be double earners.ydoethur said:
And so does mine.Sean_F said:
On checking, it's more like £190 k here, but the point stands.ydoethur said:
That would be a high price here, a low price in Gloucestershire, not even an option in most of Devon, and extortionate in Stoke.Sean_F said:
In Luton, you could get a three bed house for. £170K. Most of the country is similar. London, and other hotspots, are outliers.kyf_100 said:
You beat me to it, was going to make that exact point.Philip_Thompson said:A lot of people wanting to get on the housing ladder would see a 30% drop in house prices as desirable with or without Brexit.
Lower house prices are not a bug of brexit, they are a feature.
A worrying feature for those of us with large mortgages, but an absolute boon to the huge numbers of people who've seen the housing ladder slip away from them in the last fifteen years or so, the fault of successive Conservative and Labour governments.
Outside of a few outlying areas, usually low income, low job opportunity areas, I doubt you would be able to buy a family sized home for less than 250k these days. You might get a one or two bed flat, but how are you going to start a family and raise kids in that?
And the thought of saving for a 25k deposit while you're paying through the nose to rent some grotty little place? A laughable idea to many renters.
A quick way to look foolish is to generalise about house prices.
Edit - incidentally, unless you have very substantial savings, you will not get a sufficient mortgage for a 190k house on much less than a £50k salary.
And by 'substantial' I mean roughly £100k.0 -
You are talking about a sub-strata of largely English Remain voters.Gardenwalker said:
Moreover, Remainers tend to work in globalised sectors of the economy, ie those that bring them more often into contact with workers from overseas and indeed working overseas thenselves.AmpfieldAndy said:
That’s why they are all so scared of having to fill in a few forms to work abroad is it ?Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
Your “commentary” reminds me why Remainers cannot reconcile themselves to Leaverdom (which at heart is a nihilist, anti-rationalist revolt steeped in nostalgia).
0 -
Actually, after three years of this nonsense, I’ve heard next to no sensible arguments for Leave. I tried very hard to find one, because I’d like to be optimistic about the country and don’t mind being “wrong”.Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
But Leave is very thin gruel.
Richard Tyndall told us on the earlier thread that the country will gain power because we will retake our seat in some International body for Animal Welfare, among others.
It’s not very convincing.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.0 -
Remind me of those great reasons to remain.......Gardenwalker said:
Actually, after three years of this nonsense, I’ve heard next to no sensible arguments for Leave. I tried very hard to find one, because I’d like to be optimistic about the country and don’t mind being “wrong”.Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
But Leave is very thin gruel.
Richard Tyndall told us on the earlier thread that the country will gain power because we will retake our seat in some International body for Animal Welfare, among others.
It’s not very convincing.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.
All they had was project fear0 -
Tories support far worse people than anything Corbyn does, they sup with the worst of the worst.ydoethur said:
The party system has already collapsed. The third largest party are a narrow special interest vehicle. The second largest party is controlled by a racist with known terrorist contacts. The fourth largest party are an irrelevance living on past glories. The fifth and sixth largest parties are the political wings OF former terrorist organisations. The eighth largest party makes the rest look sane and well-organised. That leaves Sylvia Hermon.RoyalBlue said:Do you want to risk a collapse of the U.K. party system, and the rise of the far right? Do you want civil disorder? Do you want more MPs to be killed? All this and more could result from a unilateral revocation.
Theresa May and Philip Hammond, whatever their faults, are the one frail barrier that stand between us and total meltdown. Sadly for us and for them, the meltdown is now being forced on them by he unholiest alliance imaginable of a hard left inadequate, centrist unreconciled Europhiles, and the hard right Eursoceptics of their own party, who are about to deliver no deal.
We get the politicians we deserve. Boy, have we done something bad as a nation.0 -
0
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Which ones are those? Be specific if you are able.Floater said:
Yet you can't see through the fake claims of remain.....Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.0 -
The house they bought for £500 would now fetch about £300-325k. The plot it's on would be worth £120,000-150,000.David_Evershed said:
Houses still depreciate. It is the land value which appreciates with the scarcity versus demand for housing land.rural_voter said:
Better would be 60 yrs with no nominal price rises, i.e. a real cut ...Benpointer said:
That's true of course, and such a reduction may well be necessary Brexit or no-Brexit, but don't underestimate the disruption it would cause.Philip_Thompson said:A lot of people wanting to get on the housing ladder would see a 30% drop in house prices as desirable with or without Brexit.
Far better if we could have 10 years of house price stagnation.
My parents bought their first house for £500 in 1956 (£20,000 now).
Houses depreciated then, i.e. valuers and buyers were more realistic.
Not much sign there of the house and its detached garage depreciating.0 -
Scotland hews it’s own path, sure.SouthamObserver said:
You are talking about a sub-strata of largely English Remain voters.Gardenwalker said:
Moreover, Remainers tend to work in globalised sectors of the economy, ie those that bring them more often into contact with workers from overseas and indeed working overseas thenselves.AmpfieldAndy said:
That’s why they are all so scared of having to fill in a few forms to work abroad is it ?Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
Your “commentary” reminds me why Remainers cannot reconcile themselves to Leaverdom (which at heart is a nihilist, anti-rationalist revolt steeped in nostalgia).0 -
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.0 -
Not knowingly. But feel free to correct me with evidence, not bile.AmpfieldAndy said:
Any your views are not fake - very funny.Gardenwalker said:
Please read one of the academic analyses on the voters before spraying us with your fake views. And no, I won’t post it. Look it up on Google.AmpfieldAndy said:
Risible really. Why did so many inner city residents, rather than commuters, vote Remain. They don’t work in global industries by and large. Doesn’t explain why financial services practioners like Odey or Hargreaves support Leave either.Gardenwalker said:
Moreover, Remainers tend to work in globalised sectors of the economy, ie those that bring them more often into contact with workers from overseas and indeed working overseas thenselves.AmpfieldAndy said:
That’s why they are all so scared of having to fill in a few forms to work abroad is it ?Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
Your “commentary” reminds me why Remainers cannot reconcile themselves to Leaverdom (which at heart is a nihilist, anti-rationalist revolt steeped in nostalgia).
Your comments reek of why Remain lost.0 -
we were offered 4x joint earnings with a 10% deposit. so a 20k deposit and joint earnings of 45k should give you access to a £200k house. not saying that is easily achieved though.kyf_100 said:
So what we're saying is you need to either earn nearly double the national average salary or have a hundred grand saved up. To afford a three bed in Luton.ydoethur said:
And so does mine.Sean_F said:
On checking, it's more like £190 k here, but the point stands.ydoethur said:
That would be a high price here, a low price in Gloucestershire, not even an option in most of Devon, and extortionate in Stoke.Sean_F said:
In Luton, you could get a three bed house for. £170K. Most of the country is similar. London, and other hotspots, are outliers.kyf_100 said:
You beat me to it, was going to make that exact point.Philip_Thompson said:A lot of people wanting to get on the housing ladder would see a 30% drop in house prices as desirable with or without Brexit.
Lower house prices are not a bug of brexit, they are a feature.
A worrying feature for those of us with large mortgages, but an absolute boon to the huge numbers of people who've seen the housing ladder slip away from them in the last fifteen years or so, the fault of successive Conservative and Labour governments.
Outside of a few outlying areas, usually low income, low job opportunity areas, I doubt you would be able to buy a family sized home for less than 250k these days. You might get a one or two bed flat, but how are you going to start a family and raise kids in that?
And the thought of saving for a 25k deposit while you're paying through the nose to rent some grotty little place? A laughable idea to many renters.
A quick way to look foolish is to generalise about house prices.
Edit - incidentally, unless you have very substantial savings, you will not get a sufficient mortgage for a 190k house on much less than a £50k salary.
And by 'substantial' I mean roughly £100k.
This seems like a good moment to take my case out and rest it for a moment.0 -
I was idly looking in estate agent's windows in St. Albans a few weeks ago. From what I saw, half a million wouldn't get you anything with much kerb appeal.Verulamius said:About £500k for a 3 bed semi here in St Albans.
0 -
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Sean_F said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.0 -
I found the remain campaign nearly had me voting leave as a Pavlovian response. It was the same nonsense we hear about the consequences of voting Labour every election campaign. But as we have the experience of Labour governments and of being in the EU we can ignore what their opponents say about them. We've never left the EU before so the leave campaigns could let their imagination run wild. And boy did they ever do so.Floater said:
Yet you can't see through the fake claims of remain.....Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Toy.
e.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.0 -
LOL, in most of the country you would be buying a serious property for 250K.kyf_100 said:
You beat me to it, was going to make that exact point.Philip_Thompson said:A lot of people wanting to get on the housing ladder would see a 30% drop in house prices as desirable with or without Brexit.
Lower house prices are not a bug of brexit, they are a feature.
A worrying feature for those of us with large mortgages, but an absolute boon to the huge numbers of people who've seen the housing ladder slip away from them in the last fifteen years or so, the fault of successive Conservative and Labour governments.
Outside of a few outlying areas, usually low income, low job opportunity areas, I doubt you would be able to buy a family sized home for less than 250k these days. You might get a one or two bed flat, but how are you going to start a family and raise kids in that?
And the thought of saving for a 25k deposit while you're paying through the nose to rent some grotty little place? A laughable idea to many renters.0 -
That is foamy. Support for a federal Europe is a minority sport in this country.AmpfieldAndy said:Not sure that is true of Remainers. They just want to be part of a different nation state don’t they - a United States of Europe. That’s why so many Remainers were proclaiming that they were European not British in the referendum campaign.
Remainers want the USE is as false a generality as Leavers are racist thickos.0 -
Interesting that you ask for evidence but don’t provide any. Some might think that hypocritical. Some might think your articles lack substance. Either way, as you askedGardenwalker said:
Not knowingly. But feel free to correct me with evidence, not bile.AmpfieldAndy said:
Any your views are not fake - very funny.Gardenwalker said:
Please read one of the academic analyses on the voters before spraying us with your fake views. And no, I won’t post it. Look it up on Google.AmpfieldAndy said:
Risible really. Why did so many inner city residents, rather than commuters, vote Remain. They don’t work in global industries by and large. Doesn’t explain why financial services practioners like Odey or Hargreaves support Leave either.Gardenwalker said:
Moreover, Remainers tend to work in globalised sectors of the economy, ie those that bring them more often into contact with workers from overseas and indeed working overseas thenselves.AmpfieldAndy said:
That’s why they are all so scared of having to fill in a few forms to work abroad is it ?Gardenwalker said:
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Your “commentary” reminds me why Remainers cannot reconcile themselves to Leaverdom (which at heart is a nihilist, anti-rationalist revolt steeped in nostalgia).
Your comments reek of why Remain lost.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/04/leavers-have-a-better-understanding-of-remainers-motivations-than-vice-versa/0 -
Better educated - or just better indoctrinated.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
0 -
In my view, the best argument for leaving is that most EU politicians are committed to building a new European nation, and that is anathema to most British people. However, you don't believe that to be so.Gardenwalker said:
Actually, after three years of this nonsense, I’ve heard next to no sensible arguments for Leave. I tried very hard to find one, because I’d like to be optimistic about the country and don’t mind being “wrong”.Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
But Leave is very thin gruel.
Richard Tyndall told us on the earlier thread that the country will gain power because we will retake our seat in some International body for Animal Welfare, among others.
It’s not very convincing.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.0 -
Evidence please.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country. The immigration apartheid required by freedom of movement was huge too but it wouldn’t have had the same effect if membership was benefitting all parts of the country.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.0 -
You prove my case.Floater said:
Remind me of those great reasons to remain.......Gardenwalker said:
Actually, after three years of this nonsense, I’ve heard next to no sensible arguments for Leave. I tried very hard to find one, because I’d like to be optimistic about the country and don’t mind being “wrong”.Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
But Leave is very thin gruel.
Richard Tyndall told us on the earlier thread that the country will gain power because we will retake our seat in some International body for Animal Welfare, among others.
It’s not very convincing.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.
All they had was project fear
You make no argument for your own case.0 -
My decent sized 4 bed detached would be under 250KVerulamius said:About £500k for a 3 bed semi here in St Albans.
0 -
You are a big hit for yourself, I presume you think you are a genius rather than a bellend.Gardenwalker said:
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Sean_F said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.0 -
Shoe box in Hampstead £2m. No garden.0
-
Are all these large global manufacturers Nissan, JLR, JCB, etc located in "remain" voting areas?Gardenwalker said:
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Sean_F said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.0 -
In two and a half years since the Referendum, those great reasons still haven't emerged. Just "you have to be thick to want to Leave...."Floater said:
Remind me of those great reasons to remain.......Gardenwalker said:
Actually, after three years of this nonsense, I’ve heard next to no sensible arguments for Leave. I tried very hard to find one, because I’d like to be optimistic about the country and don’t mind being “wrong”.Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
But Leave is very thin gruel.
Richard Tyndall told us on the earlier thread that the country will gain power because we will retake our seat in some International body for Animal Welfare, among others.
It’s not very convincing.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.
All they had was project fear0 -
I gave a few examples out of dozens. Some very large, some small, all important. I note you ignore that one of the examples I gave was the WTO. That is typical of Remainer partial quoting and dishonesty to back up their fact free beliefs.Gardenwalker said:
Actually, after three years of this nonsense, I’ve heard next to no sensible arguments for Leave. I tried very hard to find one, because I’d like to be optimistic about the country and don’t mind being “wrong”.Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
But Leave is very thin gruel.
Richard Tyndall told us on the earlier thread that the country will gain power because we will retake our seat in some International body for Animal Welfare, among others.
It’s not very convincing.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.
Or as some of us would happily call it, your lying.0 -
I agree with Alastair that Brexit identity is unusually strong and important, but I don't see that it will necessarily dominate in the way that he envisages. It's not obvious now an identity on Brexit relates to education policy, tax policy, health policy, etc.
This is Corbyn's gamble - that day-to-day issues will become more important once Brexit happens, and he won't ever need a Brexit policy that goes beyond, "the Tories fucked it up."0 -
We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.0
-
But ever closer union is at the heart of everything the EU does. The latest wheeze is for members to give up their vetos on tax to harmonise tax. Remainers who genuinely don’t want a United States of Europe are kidding themselves.kinabalu said:
That is foamy. Support for a federal Europe is a minority sport in this country.AmpfieldAndy said:Not sure that is true of Remainers. They just want to be part of a different nation state don’t they - a United States of Europe. That’s why so many Remainers were proclaiming that they were European not British in the referendum campaign.
Remainers want the USE is as false a generality as Leavers are racist thickos.0 -
Gardenwalker said:Sean_F said:Gardenwalker said:
"The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave."Omnium said:
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Gardenwalker said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.David_Evershed said:Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
snip
No, sorry.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.
Strange, I work in a globalised industry but those who voted leave within that industry must just be thick as shit or lazy right?
What a charmer you are
Almost arrogant enough to be an mp.0 -
My guess is that a solicitor working in Bournemouth or Peterborough would be as intellectually active as his City counterpart, even if they are likely to have voted differently.Gardenwalker said:
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Sean_F said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.0 -
Very interesting.AmpfieldAndy said:
Interesting that you ask for evidence but don’t provide any. Some might think that hypocritical. Some might think your articles lack substance. Either way, as you askedGardenwalker said:
Not knowingly. But feel free to correct me with evidence, not bile.AmpfieldAndy said:
Any your views are not fake - very funny.Gardenwalker said:
Please read one of the academic analyses on the voters before spraying us with your fake views. And no, I won’t post it. Look it up on Google.AmpfieldAndy said:
Risible really. Why did so many inner city residents, rather than commuters, vote Remain. They don’t work in global industries by and large. Doesn’t explain why financial services practioners like Odey or Hargreaves support Leave either.Gardenwalker said:
Moreover, Remainers tend to work in globalised sectors of the economy, ie those that bring them more often into contact with workers from overseas and indeed working overseas thenselves.AmpfieldAndy said:
That’s why they are all so scared of having to fill in a few forms to work abroad is it ?Gardenwalker said:
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Your “commentary” reminds me why Remainers cannot reconcile themselves to Leaverdom (which at heart is a nihilist, anti-rationalist revolt steeped in nostalgia).
Your comments reek of why Remain lost.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/04/leavers-have-a-better-understanding-of-remainers-motivations-than-vice-versa/
But I’m not talking about all Leavers knowing nothing of Remain. I’m talking about *you*, who seems to think there is strong desire for a “United States of Europe”.
As I keep saying, it’s fake views.0 -
Plus the euro army is coming - we were told that was just a leave lieAmpfieldAndy said:
But ever closer union is at the heart of everything the EU does. The latest wheeze is for members to give up their vetos on tax to harmonise tax. Remainers who genuinely don’t want a United States of Europe are kidding themselves.kinabalu said:
That is foamy. Support for a federal Europe is a minority sport in this country.AmpfieldAndy said:Not sure that is true of Remainers. They just want to be part of a different nation state don’t they - a United States of Europe. That’s why so many Remainers were proclaiming that they were European not British in the referendum campaign.
Remainers want the USE is as false a generality as Leavers are racist thickos.0 -
Is anyone aware of any kind of authoritative study of how things would play out in the event of No Deal, in terms of vital supplies being affected? An academic study, or a government-sponsored study in the public domain?Chris said:
I would still ask for evidence that or transport and distribution infrastructure could continue operating in those circumstances, rather than breaking down completely.Recidivist said:I really hope it doesn't happen this way, but the quickest way to reform a national consensus is leaving with no deal and with no referendum.
Given that the slightest disruption in "normal" circumstances can lead to major problems. Such as large numbers of people being stranded in snowbound trains in adverse weather conditions, or even larger numbers of people not being able to buy anything owing to relatively minor software glitches.
Capitalism is a great mechanism for optimising things in normal circumstances, but there's very little incentive for it to produce robustness against extreme circumstances.
Surely there must have been some research carried out?0 -
GreenHeron said:
Yes. What we can't do is some sort of Hokey Cokey with it. Revoke, resubmit, revoke etc.Cyclefree said:
If we revoke A50 will we be able to resubmit it?RoyalBlue said:Cyclefree said:
Revocation, as I have said ad nauseam, maintains the status quo. It buys the country much needed time for the country to come to a considered view about what it wants to do, knowing now what withdrawal deal is on offer from the EU, given the red lines May has laid down. It gives the country time to decide whether it agrees with those &, if not, change them. It gives time to prepare. And it gives the country the opportunity to decide whether it really wants to go ahead with the decision it took nearly three years ago.
The plain fact is that, as far as we can tell, there is no settled view in Parliament about how to leave. There isn't even a settled view on this in Cabinet, for God's sake. So pressing the Pause button, taking a deep breath & thinking again - & hard - is not some evil plot against the voters or against democracy. It may well be the least worst option. If the settled view is for leave then let's try & do it like grown ups. Leaving may well be a mistake (or not). But we could earn some credit by the manner of our departure. We are not currently doing so.
The more Leavers bang on about the referendum & set their face against another referendum, the more I wonder whether some of them are doing so because they are worried that were the voters to look again at their decision in the light of what we now know they might change their mind.
Nothing is easy here. I'll admit.0 -
Shame you didn’t read it. Snide insults like yours are never an effective substitute for reasoned argument. Ever closer union is at the heart of everything the EU does.Gardenwalker said:
Very interesting.AmpfieldAndy said:
Interesting that you ask for evidence but don’t provide any. Some might think that hypocritical. Some might think your articles lack substance. Either way, as you askedGardenwalker said:
Not knowingly. But feel free to correct me with evidence, not bile.AmpfieldAndy said:
Any your views are not fake - very funny.Gardenwalker said:
Please read one of the academic analyses on the voters before spraying us with your fake views. And no, I won’t post it. Look it up on Google.AmpfieldAndy said:
Risible really. Why did so many inner city residents, rather than commuters, vote Remain. They don’t work in global industries by and large. Doesn’t explain why financial services practioners like Odey or Hargreaves support Leave either.Gardenwalker said:
Your “commentary” reminds me why Remainers cannot reconcile themselves to Leaverdom (which at heart is a nihilist, anti-rationalist revolt steeped in nostalgia).AmpfieldAndy said:
That’s why they are all so scared of having to fill in a few forms to work abroad is it ?Gardenwalker said:
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
The surprising thing is that deprivation in our society is most keenly felt in our inner cities who, with the exception of Birmingham (just), voted strongly for Remain. They don’t benefit from EU membership either and presumably don’t care.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Your comments reek of why Remain lost.
http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2018/05/04/leavers-have-a-better-understanding-of-remainers-motivations-than-vice-versa/
But I’m not talking about all Leavers knowing nothing of Remain. I’m talking about *you*, who seems to think there is strong desire for a “United States of Europe”.
As I keep saying, it’s fake views.0 -
https://www.britishports.org.uk/system/files/documents/prospects_for_trade_and_britains_maritime_ports.pdfChris said:
Is anyone aware of any kind of authoritative study of how things would play out in the event of No Deal, in terms of vital supplies being affected? An academic study, or a government-sponsored study in the public domain?Chris said:
I would still ask for evidence that or transport and distribution infrastructure could continue operating in those circumstances, rather than breaking down completely.Recidivist said:I really hope it doesn't happen this way, but the quickest way to reform a national consensus is leaving with no deal and with no referendum.
Given that the slightest disruption in "normal" circumstances can lead to major problems. Such as large numbers of people being stranded in snowbound trains in adverse weather conditions, or even larger numbers of people not being able to buy anything owing to relatively minor software glitches.
Capitalism is a great mechanism for optimising things in normal circumstances, but there's very little incentive for it to produce robustness against extreme circumstances.
Surely there must have been some research carried out?0 -
That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!Gallowgate said:We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.
Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.0 -
The point I would make here is they have wealthy suburbs. Even so, Newcastle was a bare win for Remain - the first sign Leave might win was the narrowness of the vote there.AmpfieldAndy said:But Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and London didn’t - different scale.
I'm just dubious about the blanket 'inner cities' label. I think a great many classic inner cities voted leave. But because the metropolitan areas overall voted Remain, the narrative is getting skewed.
Still waiting for that further info on Grieve, btw....0 -
Leave's greatest argument was the one about the colour of fire extinguishers. This actually stirred a nostalgic twinge in me: I remember being fascinated as a child by a poster explaining the various colours at the local swimming baths: red was water, blue (like we had in our kitchen) was foam, black and green were something mysterious. Glory be that the children of the future can bask in this same experience.Gardenwalker said:
Actually, after three years of this nonsense, I’ve heard next to no sensible arguments for Leave. I tried very hard to find one, because I’d like to be optimistic about the country and don’t mind being “wrong”.Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
But Leave is very thin gruel.
Richard Tyndall told us on the earlier thread that the country will gain power because we will retake our seat in some International body for Animal Welfare, among others.
It’s not very convincing.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.0 -
Yes, as far as I can tell this seems to be the most potent force driving Leave, along with frustration over immigration control. I can well understand it, and I guess this explains why AmpfieldAndy genuinely? seems to believe that Remainers actively desire a new European nation.Sean_F said:
In my view, the best argument for leaving is that most EU politicians are committed to building a new European nation, and that is anathema to most British people. However, you don't believe that to be so.Gardenwalker said:Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
You’re right, I don’t believe it to be so.
While a truly United States of Europe is probably something Juncker and Selmayr dream of each night in Brussels, there are few in Paris, Berlin and certainly London who desire the same.
In fact, our best strategy to prevent a USE was to stay *in* the EU.0 -
Don’t think I’ve seen a definition of “inner cities” that includes suburbs.ydoethur said:
The point I would make here is they have wealthy suburbs. Even so, Newcastle was a bare win for Remain - the first sign Leave might win was the narrowness of the vote there.AmpfieldAndy said:But Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and London didn’t - different scale.
I'm just dubious about the blanket 'inner cities' label. I think a great many classic inner cities voted leave. But because the metropolitan areas overall voted Remain, the narrative is getting skewed.
Still waiting for that further info on Grieve, btw....0 -
And I'm not seeing a definition of Manchester that doesn't include them.AmpfieldAndy said:
Don’t think I’ve seen a definition of “inner cities” that includes suburbs.ydoethur said:
The point I would make here is they have wealthy suburbs. Even so, Newcastle was a bare win for Remain - the first sign Leave might win was the narrowness of the vote there.AmpfieldAndy said:But Newcastle, Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds and London didn’t - different scale.
I'm just dubious about the blanket 'inner cities' label. I think a great many classic inner cities voted leave. But because the metropolitan areas overall voted Remain, the narrative is getting skewed.
Still waiting for that further info on Grieve, btw....
Do you now want to withdraw your claims about Grieve?0 -
It is odd though that the one thing that didn't happen during the referendum was hearing from EU politicians. Perhaps we might have been better off if we had.Sean_F said:
In my view, the best argument for leaving is that most EU politicians are committed to building a new European nation, and that is anathema to most British people. However, you don't believe that to be so.Gardenwalker said:
Actually, after three years of this nonsense, I’ve heard next to no sensible arguments for Leave. I tried very hard to find one, because I’d like to be optimistic about the country and don’t mind being “wrong”.Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:David_Evershed said:Gardenwalker said:AmpfieldAndy said:
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
But Leave is very thin gruel.
Richard Tyndall told us on the earlier thread that the country will gain power because we will retake our seat in some International body for Animal Welfare, among others.
It’s not very convincing.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.
http://www2.politicalbetting.com/index.php/archives/2016/05/18/the-eu-dog-that-hasnt-barked-yet/0 -
According to Rightmove a semi-detached property in the North-East on average costs £150,813, in the North-West costs £186,346, in Yorkshire and Humber costs £172,824, in the East Midlands costs £178,832, in the West Midlands costs £199,331.kyf_100 said:
You beat me to it, was going to make that exact point.Philip_Thompson said:A lot of people wanting to get on the housing ladder would see a 30% drop in house prices as desirable with or without Brexit.
Lower house prices are not a bug of brexit, they are a feature.
A worrying feature for those of us with large mortgages, but an absolute boon to the huge numbers of people who've seen the housing ladder slip away from them in the last fifteen years or so, the fault of successive Conservative and Labour governments.
Outside of a few outlying areas, usually low income, low job opportunity areas, I doubt you would be able to buy a family sized home for less than 250k these days. You might get a one or two bed flat, but how are you going to start a family and raise kids in that?
And the thought of saving for a 25k deposit while you're paying through the nose to rent some grotty little place? A laughable idea to many renters.
In fact the only regions a family sized house costs more than £250k was in the South and Commuter belt. In the South West a semi detached home was still under £300k on average though at £267,637. Prices for semis only rose over £300k in the East at £328,804, the South East at £392,723 and most expensive of all in London at £659,203
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/house-prices-in-England.html0 -
Yes certainly. I am talking in general terms, which is the only meaningful way to talk about the voters.Sean_F said:
My guess is that a solicitor working in Bournemouth or Peterborough would be as intellectually active as his City counterpart, even if they are likely to have voted differently.Gardenwalker said:
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Sean_F said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.
The one exception I’d make is that solicitors in the St Albans to Luton area are renowned to be utterly utterly brain dead. 🤣0 -
To be provocative, is that such a bad idea, given (a) Trump's attitude to the defence of any country other than the US; (b) the rise of China; (c) Putin's behaviour?Floater said:
Plus the euro army is coming - we were told that was just a leave lieAmpfieldAndy said:
But ever closer union is at the heart of everything the EU does. The latest wheeze is for members to give up their vetos on tax to harmonise tax. Remainers who genuinely don’t want a United States of Europe are kidding themselves.kinabalu said:
That is foamy. Support for a federal Europe is a minority sport in this country.AmpfieldAndy said:Not sure that is true of Remainers. They just want to be part of a different nation state don’t they - a United States of Europe. That’s why so many Remainers were proclaiming that they were European not British in the referendum campaign.
Remainers want the USE is as false a generality as Leavers are racist thickos.0 -
In a sense though, that's an irrelevance. Getting the mortgage is the problem, not paying it after you've got it. Usually, it's still much cheaper than the rent on an equivalent house.kyf_100 said:
That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!Gallowgate said:We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.
Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
My mortgage is half what I paid in rent on an inferior property, and I could easily afford it if I quit my job (which I am very seriously thinking of doing). But no way on God's green earth would I have got it without that job.
0 -
The Tories still won ABs even at GE17 despite the fact most ABs voted Remain, the only group Labour won at the last GE was DEs who mainly voted Leave.David_Evershed said:If Mr Meek's arguments are correct we can expect the majority of C2's D's and E's to vote Conservative and the majority ofGraduates to vote Labour.
So instead of this situation being an unstable position it looks like it could solidify.
However, post Brexit surely the rich will return to voting Conservative and the less rich return to voting Labour?0 -
You're old fashionedkyf_100 said:
That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!Gallowgate said:We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.
Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.0 -
Not bad. Not bad at all. Revoke/Cancel is certainly something we must now contemplate. And contemplate it I have.David_Evershed said:Deleave? Debrexit?
1st May 2019, Downing St, the man recently installed as Britain’s Prime Minister stands erect behind the front door. When it opens he must stride to the lectern and deliver the speech of his life. Yesterday the House of Commons, after much wrangling and amidst bitter recriminations, passed the motion to revoke Article 50, and their decision is final. Blighty is not leaving the European Union. The dream of being an independent coastal state in charge of its own fish is over. It represents a national humiliation, pointless to pretend otherwise, but that is not the main concern. Worse, potentially, is that this rogering of the 2016 EU referendum has damaged UK democracy itself, perhaps fatally.
It has fallen to this politician, at this time, to make sure that such is not the case. The apology he has crafted will, he hopes, hit the mark. It’s a grandiose and grovelling mea culpa, offered to the British people on behalf of the whole political class. “Sorry for making you vote, sorry for the way you voted, sorry for having to ignore it”, is the essence of what he plans to say. A tough sell, but sell it he must. Seconds away now, the door will swing open and he will go out there. Speech of his life? I should cocoa. It will require the greatest peroration a British PM has delivered since Churchill’s finest hour. But this PM is up for it. He knows he is The Man. He shadow boxes, then he grins at his aides and does a Mobot. He is born for this moment, so bring it on! The Sajid is ready.0 -
Lower house prices are a feature, if not a bug, of economic meltdown.kyf_100 said:
You beat me to it, was going to make that exact point.Philip_Thompson said:A lot of people wanting to get on the housing ladder would see a 30% drop in house prices as desirable with or without Brexit.
Lower house prices are not a bug of brexit, they are a feature.
A worrying feature for those of us with large mortgages, but an absolute boon to the huge numbers of people who've seen the housing ladder slip away from them in the last fifteen years or so, the fault of successive Conservative and Labour governments.
Outside of a few outlying areas, usually low income, low job opportunity areas, I doubt you would be able to buy a family sized home for less than 250k these days. You might get a one or two bed flat, but how are you going to start a family and raise kids in that?
And the thought of saving for a 25k deposit while you're paying through the nose to rent some grotty little place? A laughable idea to many renters.
(Although I do think lower house prices are good, if not accompanied by all the other stuff).0 -
Gardenwalker said:
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Sean_F said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a deal to satisfy the majority. The Remainers driving Brexit don’t want Brexit and want to stay as close to the EU as possible, even to the extent of giving the EU carte blanche to run our economy afterwards. Neither they nor the Leave supporting MPs have the slightest idea of what they want from Brexit or how they want move forward if it becomes a reality. That is a sad inditement on the intellectual inadequacy of British politics.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.
So 52% of the UK is economically and intellectually inactive.
We are doomed, doomed I tell ya.0 -
I am happy to include WTO, it’s just that your Animal Welfare example was much more funny.Richard_Tyndall said:
I gave a few examples out of dozens. Some very large, some small, all important. I note you ignore that one of the examples I gave was the WTO. That is typical of Remainer partial quoting and dishonesty to back up their fact free beliefs.Gardenwalker said:
It’s not very convincing.Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people.
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.
Or as some of us would happily call it, your lying.
A theoretical case could be made that the U.K. gains power by regaining its WTO seat. But in practice I am not persuaded, given the EU’s status as a regulatory superpower.0 -
Thanks, but that gives the impression of having been written some time ago (I can't see a date) and seems to deal with the potential problems in very general terms.ralphmalph said:
https://www.britishports.org.uk/system/files/documents/prospects_for_trade_and_britains_maritime_ports.pdfChris said:
Is anyone aware of any kind of authoritative study of how things would play out in the event of No Deal, in terms of vital supplies being affected? An academic study, or a government-sponsored study in the public domain?Chris said:
I would still ask for evidence that or transport and distribution infrastructure could continue operating in those circumstances, rather than breaking down completely.Recidivist said:I really hope it doesn't happen this way, but the quickest way to reform a national consensus is leaving with no deal and with no referendum.
Given that the slightest disruption in "normal" circumstances can lead to major problems. Such as large numbers of people being stranded in snowbound trains in adverse weather conditions, or even larger numbers of people not being able to buy anything owing to relatively minor software glitches.
Capitalism is a great mechanism for optimising things in normal circumstances, but there's very little incentive for it to produce robustness against extreme circumstances.
Surely there must have been some research carried out?
Such as:
"However the majority of the UK’s trade with the EU is via Roll on Roll off (ro-ro) ferry services where lorries carry freight through ports such as Dover, Holyhead and Portsmouth. For these operations any additional checks could potentially mean friction and delays. The UK Government has proposed an IT solution as an option to overcome the challenge."
I can't tell from that report whether this "option" has actually been put into effect and is fully tested and ready for use on 29 March. I haven't heard of such a thing. I strongly suspect none of this has been done.
Can anyone reassure me with something more substantial?0 -
Your case is nowhere near as convincing as you seem to think it is. We gain influence if, and only if, we pack a bigger punch as an individual country than we do as part of a larger grouping. We might do in some cases, but it won't necessarily always apply. And it is just as likely to diminish as increase the sway we hold. It also doesn't take into account that we do have many common interests with our neighbours, so often we'll be voting the same way individually as we do collectively. And we will also not be able to benefit to the same extent from having expertise on our side, as we'll inevitably have a smaller pool of people to draw from to represent us.Richard_Tyndall said:
I gave a few examples out of dozens. Some very large, some small, all important. I note you ignore that one of the examples I gave was the WTO. That is typical of Remainer partial quoting and dishonesty to back up their fact free beliefs.Gardenwalker said:
AOmnium said:
n.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
y.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Tos.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
ss.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
Richard Tyndall told us on the earlier thread that the country will gain power because we will retake our seat in some International body for Animal Welfare, among others.
It’s not very convincing.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.
Or as some of us would happily call it, your lying.
I think the case that leaving the EU diminishes the UK's standing in the world is pretty solid.
0 -
Good afternoon, everyone.
Just finished Chris Wickham's Inheritance of Rome. Rather liked it.
Amused he ends by saying that peasants may have been better off by 1000 AD but that they lost autonomy. Sounds vaguely familiar, losing political freedom of action for economic gain...0 -
Once you add in children, I wouldn't be surprised if that's correct actually. Does anyone have a figure?David_Evershed said:So 52% of the UK is economically and intellectually inactive.
We are doomed, doomed I tell ya.0 -
I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.Stereotomy said:
You're old fashionedkyf_100 said:
That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!Gallowgate said:We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.
Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.0 -
Is not the figure you require the 33million in employment and a population of 66million.ydoethur said:
Once you add in children, I wouldn't be surprised if that's correct actually. Does anyone have a figure?David_Evershed said:So 52% of the UK is economically and intellectually inactive.
We are doomed, doomed I tell ya.
So 50%.0 -
My comment was flippant but not unfounded.David_Evershed said:Gardenwalker said:
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Sean_F said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a dea
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.
So 52% of the UK is economically and intellectually inactive.
We are doomed, doomed I tell ya.
Actually, one of the big problems with this country is that so much of it is “left behind”. And those left behind tended to vote for Brexit.0 -
This is also an excellent video on the subject : https://youtu.be/AyahEuxvBUkralphmalph said:
https://www.britishports.org.uk/system/files/documents/prospects_for_trade_and_britains_maritime_ports.pdfChris said:
Is anyone aware of any kind of authoritative study of how things would play out in the event of No Deal, in terms of vital supplies being affected? An academic study, or a government-sponsored study in the public domain?Chris said:
I would still ask for evidence that or transport and distribution infrastructure could continue operating in those circumstances, rather than breaking down completely.Recidivist said:I really hope it doesn't happen this way, but the quickest way to reform a national consensus is leaving with no deal and with no referendum.
Given that the slightest disruption in "normal" circumstances can lead to major problems. Such as large numbers of people being stranded in snowbound trains in adverse weather conditions, or even larger numbers of people not being able to buy anything owing to relatively minor software glitches.
Capitalism is a great mechanism for optimising things in normal circumstances, but there's very little incentive for it to produce robustness against extreme circumstances.
Surely there must have been some research carried out?0 -
can't customs checks be done on the boat. they have to sit on there for the best part of an hour anyway.Chris said:
Thanks, but that gives the impression of having been written some time ago (I can't see a date) and seems to deal with the potential problems in very general terms.ralphmalph said:
https://www.britishports.org.uk/system/files/documents/prospects_for_trade_and_britains_maritime_ports.pdfChris said:
Is anyone aware of any kind of authoritative study of how things would play out in the event of No Deal, in terms of vital supplies being affected? An academic study, or a government-sponsored study in the public domain?Chris said:
I would still ask for evidence that or transport and distribution infrastructure could continue operating in those circumstances, rather than breaking down completely.Recidivist said:I really hope it doesn't happen this way, but the quickest way to reform a national consensus is leaving with no deal and with no referendum.
Given that the slightest disruption in "normal" circumstances can lead to major problems. Such as large numbers of people being stranded in snowbound trains in adverse weather conditions, or even larger numbers of people not being able to buy anything owing to relatively minor software glitches.
Capitalism is a great mechanism for optimising things in normal circumstances, but there's very little incentive for it to produce robustness against extreme circumstances.
Surely there must have been some research carried out?
Such as:
"However the majority of the UK’s trade with the EU is via Roll on Roll off (ro-ro) ferry services where lorries carry freight through ports such as Dover, Holyhead and Portsmouth. For these operations any additional checks could potentially mean friction and delays. The UK Government has proposed an IT solution as an option to overcome the challenge."
I can't tell from that report whether this "option" has actually been put into effect and is fully tested and ready for use on 29 March. I haven't heard of such a thing. I strongly suspect none of this has been done.
Can anyone reassure me with something more substantial?0 -
Nope. As part of the EU our influence was effectively zero. All we could do was smile politely whilst the rest of the EU made decisions that suited them irrespective of whether or not they suited us.Recidivist said:
Your case is nowhere near as convincing as you seem to think it is. We gain influence if, and only if, we pack a bigger punch as an individual country than we do as part of a larger grouping. We might do in some cases, but it won't necessarily always apply. And it is just as likely to diminish as increase the sway we hold. It also doesn't take into account that we do have many common interests with our neighbours, so often we'll be voting the same way individually as we do collectively. And we will also not be able to benefit to the same extent from having expertise on our side, as we'll inevitably have a smaller pool of people to draw from to represent us.
I think the case that leaving the EU diminishes the UK's standing in the world is pretty solid.
Once out we can choose to support those changes that suit us, not the 'collective will' of the 28. Oh and if we really don't like something then, unlike being in the EU, we don't have t accept it. There is no QMV at an international level outside the EU.
0 -
Just one country out of 27 might veto a war against an agressor.Cyclefree said:
To be provocative, is that such a bad idea, given (a) Trump's attitude to the defence of any country other than the US; (b) the rise of China; (c) Putin's behaviour?Floater said:
Plus the euro army is coming - we were told that was just a leave lieAmpfieldAndy said:
But ever closer union is at the heart of everything the EU does. The latest wheeze is for members to give up their vetos on tax to harmonise tax. Remainers who genuinely don’t want a United States of Europe are kidding themselves.kinabalu said:
That is foamy. Support for a federal Europe is a minority sport in this country.AmpfieldAndy said:Not sure that is true of Remainers. They just want to be part of a different nation state don’t they - a United States of Europe. That’s why so many Remainers were proclaiming that they were European not British in the referendum campaign.
Remainers want the USE is as false a generality as Leavers are racist thickos.
Suppose Estonia was invaded by Russia. Would the EU army defend Estonia or might that be vetoed by Cyprus under Russian influence?0 -
It is depressing that Britain is the only country in Europe that does not provide any kind of financial support to stay at home parents. Clearly forcing women or men with caring responsibilities out of the workforce is unacceptable, but providing no support to those who want to live in a more traditional way seems very unfair.kyf_100 said:
I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.Stereotomy said:
You're old fashionedkyf_100 said:
That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!Gallowgate said:We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.
Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.0 -
The Euro army is more fake views.Floater said:
Plus the euro army is coming - we were told that was just a leave lieAmpfieldAndy said:
But ever closer union is at the heart of everything the EU does. The latest wheeze is for members to give up their vetos on tax to harmonise tax. Remainers who genuinely don’t want a United States of Europe are kidding themselves.kinabalu said:
That is foamy. Support for a federal Europe is a minority sport in this country.AmpfieldAndy said:Not sure that is true of Remainers. They just want to be part of a different nation state don’t they - a United States of Europe. That’s why so many Remainers were proclaiming that they were European not British in the referendum campaign.
Remainers want the USE is as false a generality as Leavers are racist thickos.
There is agreement to collaborate more - largely in the interests of defence procurement - but no Euro army.
A Euro army implies that Juncker has his finger on some button, or several divisions at his control. This is not the case.0 -
The new customs system detailed in the report is currently being implemented/tested.Chris said:
Thanks, but that gives the impression of having been written some time ago (I can't see a date) and seems to deal with the potential problems in very general terms.ralphmalph said:
https://www.britishports.org.uk/system/files/documents/prospects_for_trade_and_britains_maritime_ports.pdfChris said:
Is anyone aware of any kind of authoritative study of how things would play out in the event of No Deal, in terms of vital supplies being affected? An academic study, or a government-sponsored study in the public domain?Chris said:
I would still ask for evidence that or transport and distribution infrastructure could continue operating in those circumstances, rather than breaking down completely.Recidivist said:I really hope it doesn't happen this way, but the quickest way to reform a national consensus is leaving with no deal and with no referendum.
Given that the slightest disruption in "normal" circumstances can lead to major problems. Such as large numbers of people being stranded in snowbound trains in adverse weather conditions, or even larger numbers of people not being able to buy anything owing to relatively minor software glitches.
Capitalism is a great mechanism for optimising things in normal circumstances, but there's very little incentive for it to produce robustness against extreme circumstances.
Surely there must have been some research carried out?
Such as:
"However the majority of the UK’s trade with the EU is via Roll on Roll off (ro-ro) ferry services where lorries carry freight through ports such as Dover, Holyhead and Portsmouth. For these operations any additional checks could potentially mean friction and delays. The UK Government has proposed an IT solution as an option to overcome the challenge."
I can't tell from that report whether this "option" has actually been put into effect and is fully tested and ready for use on 29 March. I haven't heard of such a thing. I strongly suspect none of this has been done.
Can anyone reassure me with something more substantial?
HMRC have stated 22 Nov 2018 that in no deal scenario the UK will have functioning customs system, but that it will not be optimal and that will take another 2 years.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-customs-system-will-take-two-years-to-set-up-if-no-deal-37553682.html0 -
But it would prove mis-placed optimism. Three weeks later, his Govt. having lost a vote of no confidence because he could not buy off the DUP, he was on his way to meet with Her Majesty to call a general election. A general election in which the polls were telling him his party would achieve just 24% of the votes.....kinabalu said:
Not bad. Not bad at all. Revoke/Cancel is certainly something we must now contemplate. And contemplate it I have.David_Evershed said:Deleave? Debrexit?
1st May 2019, Downing St, the man recently installed as Britain’s Prime Minister stands erect behind the front door. When it opens he must stride to the lectern and deliver the speech of his life. Yesterday the House of Commons, after much wrangling and amidst bitter recriminations, passed the motion to revoke Article 50, and their decision is final. Blighty is not leaving the European Union. The dream of being an independent coastal state in charge of its own fish is over. It represents a national humiliation, pointless to pretend otherwise, but that is not the main concern. Worse, potentially, is that this rogering of the 2016 EU referendum has damaged UK democracy itself, perhaps fatally.
It has fallen to this politician, at this time, to make sure that such is not the case. The apology he has crafted will, he hopes, hit the mark. It’s a grandiose and grovelling mea culpa, offered to the British people on behalf of the whole political class. “Sorry for making you vote, sorry for the way you voted, sorry for having to ignore it”, is the essence of what he plans to say. A tough sell, but sell it he must. Seconds away now, the door will swing open and he will go out there. Speech of his life? I should cocoa. It will require the greatest peroration a British PM has delivered since Churchill’s finest hour. But this PM is up for it. He knows he is The Man. He shadow boxes, then he grins at his aides and does a Mobot. He is born for this moment, so bring it on! The Sajid is ready.
He would be in the record books. But not for any reason he would want to revisit in his early retirement.0 -
The problem with Brexit is the following:-
1. Leavers are very good at identifying all the things which are wrong with the EU and there are many of them.
2. Leavers are utterly hopeless at coming up with a plan for (a) how to Brexit and (b) a post-Brexit future which is coherent, realistic and workable.
3. Remainers are very good at pointing to how difficult it is to Brexit and all the difficulties of coming up with alternatives to the advantages which Britain has from being in the EU.
4. Remainers are very bad at selling the EU plans for its future and its advantages for Britain.
In short, both are good at explaining the negatives of the other side's position and utterly hopeless at having / let alone selling their own positive vision.
It's like a Brexit version of the diligent/stupid/lazy/intelligent categories for soldiers.
If only there were a way of combining the best of what both Leavers and Remainers have to offer.0 -
Imperial Federation?Cyclefree said:The problem with Brexit is the following:-
1. Leavers are very good at identifying all the things which are wrong with the EU and there are many of them.
2. Leavers are utterly hopeless at coming up with a plan for (a) how to Brexit and (b) a post-Brexit future which is coherent, realistic and workable.
3. Remainers are very good at pointing to how difficult it is to Brexit and all the difficulties of coming up with alternatives to the advantages which Britain has from being in the EU.
4. Remainers are very bad at selling the EU plans for its future and its advantages for Britain.
In short, both are good at explaining the negatives of the other side's position and utterly hopeless at having / let alone selling their own positive vision.
It's like a Brexit version of the diligent/stupid/lazy/intelligent categories for soldiers.
If only there were a way of combining the best of what both Leavers and Remainers have to offer.0 -
He's 70 this year. His retirement would scarcely be 'early!'MarqueeMark said:
But it would prove mis-placed optimism. Three weeks later, his Govt. having lost a vote of no confidence because he could not buy off the DUP, he was on his way to meet with Her Majesty to call a general election. A general election in which the polls were telling him his party would achieve just 24% of the votes.....kinabalu said:
Not bad. Not bad at all. Revoke/Cancel is certainly something we must now contemplate. And contemplate it I have.David_Evershed said:Deleave? Debrexit?
1st May 2019, Downing St, the man recently installed as Britain’s Prime Minister stands erect behind the front door. When it opens he must stride to the lectern and deliver the speech of his life. Yesterday the House of Commons, after much wrangling and amidst bitter recriminations, passed the motion to revoke Article 50, and their decision is final. Blighty is not leaving the European Union. The dream of being an independent coastal state in charge of its own fish is over. It represents a national humiliation, pointless to pretend otherwise, but that is not the main concern. Worse, potentially, is that this rogering of the 2016 EU referendum has damaged UK democracy itself, perhaps fatally.
It has fallen to this politician, at this time, to make sure that such is not the case. The apology he has crafted will, he hopes, hit the mark. It’s a grandiose and grovelling mea culpa, offered to the British people on behalf of the whole political class. “Sorry for making you vote, sorry for the way you voted, sorry for having to ignore it”, is the essence of what he plans to say. A tough sell, but sell it he must. Seconds away now, the door will swing open and he will go out there. Speech of his life? I should cocoa. It will require the greatest peroration a British PM has delivered since Churchill’s finest hour. But this PM is up for it. He knows he is The Man. He shadow boxes, then he grins at his aides and does a Mobot. He is born for this moment, so bring it on! The Sajid is ready.
He would be in the record books. But not for any reason he would want to revisit in his early retirement.0 -
Some of us don't find animal welfare issues at all funny. I would cite Nick Palmer as another example on here.Gardenwalker said:
I am happy to include WTO, it’s just that your Animal Welfare example was much more funny.
A theoretical case could be made that the U.K. gains power by regaining its WTO seat. But in practice I am not persuaded, given the EU’s status as a regulatory superpower.
Anyway, you miss the fact that if the EU accepts something on our behalf we have to accept it whether we like it or not. As I just mentioned in a previous comment there is no QMV in these organisations outside the EU and if we really don't like something we are not duty bound to accept it.0 -
You keep saying this. You seem to have convinced yourself that a) the EU was/is a foreign power - even a hostile foreign power, and that b) the U.K. lacked any influence inside the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. As part of the EU our influence was effectively zero. All we could do was smile politely whilst the rest of the EU made decisions that suited them irrespective of whether or not they suited us.Recidivist said:
Your case is nowhere near as convincing as you seem to think it is. We gain influence if, and only if, we pack a bigger punch as an individual country than we do as part of a larger grouping. We might do in some cases, but it won't necessarily always apply. And it is just as likely to diminish as increase the sway we hold. It also doesn't take into account that we do have many common interests with our neighbours, so often we'll be voting the same way individually as we do collectively. And we will also not be able to benefit to the same extent from having expertise on our side, as we'll inevitably have a smaller pool of people to draw from to represent us.
I think the case that leaving the EU diminishes the UK's standing in the world is pretty solid.
Once out we can choose to support those changes that suit us, not the 'collective will' of the 28. Oh and if we really don't like something then, unlike being in the EU, we don't have t accept it. There is no QMV at an international level outside the EU.
I find these claims mystifying.
I suppose, if I am charitable (a) could be true if (b) was true, ie that our influence was so bad that the EU was a de facto foreign power.0 -
Is it not the case that the decision process for how the EU Army will be authorised to go into action, has not been decided yet?Gardenwalker said:
The Euro army is more fake views.Floater said:
Plus the euro army is coming - we were told that was just a leave lieAmpfieldAndy said:
But ever closer union is at the heart of everything the EU does. The latest wheeze is for members to give up their vetos on tax to harmonise tax. Remainers who genuinely don’t want a United States of Europe are kidding themselves.kinabalu said:
That is foamy. Support for a federal Europe is a minority sport in this country.AmpfieldAndy said:Not sure that is true of Remainers. They just want to be part of a different nation state don’t they - a United States of Europe. That’s why so many Remainers were proclaiming that they were European not British in the referendum campaign.
Remainers want the USE is as false a generality as Leavers are racist thickos.
There is agreement to collaborate more - largely in the interests of defence procurement - but no Euro army.
A Euro army implies that Juncker has his finger on some button, or several divisions at his control. This is not the case.
I also believe that seeing as the EU is not a nation state under which legal system the EU Army will operate still has to be decided.0 -
The Fire Extinguisher argument, whilst obviously not important in the grand scheme of things, was a perfect example of where UK regulations were better than the EU ones that we had to adopt. It doesn't matter anyway. We ain't going to leave.Stark_Dawning said:
Leave's greatest argument was the one about the colour of fire extinguishers. This actually stirred a nostalgic twinge in me: I remember being fascinated as a child by a poster explaining the various colours at the local swimming baths: red was water, blue (like we had in our kitchen) was foam, black and green were something mysterious. Glory be that the children of the future can bask in this same experience.Gardenwalker said:
Actually, after three years of this nonsense, I’ve heard next to no sensible arguments for Leave. I tried very hard to find one, because I’d like to be optimistic about the country and don’t mind being “wrong”.Omnium said:
Ok, well it may be true, and it does make sense that its true. Better educated people perhaps have more skin in the EU game. Nonetheless you will, I imagine, concede that some of what you're saying is simple correlation.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
Fake claims on both sides, but sensible arguments too.
But Leave is very thin gruel.
Richard Tyndall told us on the earlier thread that the country will gain power because we will retake our seat in some International body for Animal Welfare, among others.
It’s not very convincing.
The best, and only, argument Leave has left is that the country voted for it in a cack-handed referendum. They have largely given up arguing for Leave on its own merits.
0 -
The problem is those between the left behind and the right behind.Gardenwalker said:
My comment was flippant but not unfounded.David_Evershed said:Gardenwalker said:
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Sean_F said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a dea
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.
So 52% of the UK is economically and intellectually inactive.
We are doomed, doomed I tell ya.
Actually, one of the big problems with this country is that so much of it is “left behind”. And those left behind tended to vote for Brexit.0 -
Burnley win 2-1 - without having a shot on target!0
-
We might need to rethink the whole issue of European defence e.g. maybe combining Nato and EU defence capabilities.David_Evershed said:
Just one country out of 27 might veto a war against an agressor.Cyclefree said:
To be provocative, is that such a bad idea, given (a) Trump's attitude to the defence of any country other than the US; (b) the rise of China; (c) Putin's behaviour?Floater said:
Plus the euro army is coming - we were told that was just a leave lieAmpfieldAndy said:
But ever closer union is at the heart of everything the EU does. The latest wheeze is for members to give up their vetos on tax to harmonise tax. Remainers who genuinely don’t want a United States of Europe are kidding themselves.kinabalu said:
That is foamy. Support for a federal Europe is a minority sport in this country.AmpfieldAndy said:Not sure that is true of Remainers. They just want to be part of a different nation state don’t they - a United States of Europe. That’s why so many Remainers were proclaiming that they were European not British in the referendum campaign.
Remainers want the USE is as false a generality as Leavers are racist thickos.
Suppose Estonia was invaded by Russia. Would the EU army defend Estonia or might that be vetoed by Cyprus under Russian influence?
The world is changing. We need to rethink how to address the challenges that are coming, not assume that the past - whether the EU as it has been or going back to a non-EU past - are the answers.0 -
Two cheeks of the same arse, you mean?David_Evershed said:
The problem is those between the left behind and the right behind.Gardenwalker said:
My comment was flippant but not unfounded.David_Evershed said:Gardenwalker said:
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Sean_F said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
There's at least a note of caution in the Remain view. I think you'd really struggle to find anyone that viewed the EU as some great blossoming opportunity.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a dea
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
The young are better educated and more liberal, so you're just saying Remainers tend to be young.
Personally I think older people don't like the promised land turning out to be full of unpromising souls such as Juncker - we don't need the EU for that, we're world leaders in produce our own dross.
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.
So 52% of the UK is economically and intellectually inactive.
We are doomed, doomed I tell ya.
Actually, one of the big problems with this country is that so much of it is “left behind”. And those left behind tended to vote for Brexit.0 -
I still don't understand what is stopping May from repeatedly bringing back the deal with subtle changes to be re-voted on.
I get that there will be fury from remainers that parliamentary process is being abused but in reality the anger would be that she isn't giving them Ref2, revocation or a GE.
Whoever forces one of the latter 3 options is going to face a storm which is why somebody is going to have to stick their head above the parapet.
If I was May i'd be asking why I should be doing the bidding that remainer MP's are too frightened to do themselves.0 -
kyf_100 said:
I also know what it's like to grow up with absent / distant parents who chose career over care, so forgive me if I'm old fashioned and proud about it when I say that I believe being a mother, certainly for the first few years of childhood, *is* a full time job.Stereotomy said:
You're old fashionedkyf_100 said:
That sounds about right. And congrats on your home!Gallowgate said:We have a 220k new build in Newcastle on a combined salary of 60k. First time buyers. 3 bedroom with garage, decent size south-facing garden.
Though call me old fashioned if you will, but if I were raising kids with someone, I wouldn't want the mother to go back to work until all the children were in primary school at least. Which means a minimum of five years of being on one income before mum can go back to work.
Sometimes it is not a choice. Sometimes the mother is the one earning the regular / higher salary.
0 -
It is difficult to class all "leave" voters or all "remain" voters as homogeneous groups.
Surrey voted 52.2% Remain, Merseyside voted 52.0% remain, so obviously Surrey and Merseyside are politically similar?0 -
Remainers dont really seem to care about those who don’t benefit from EU membership. Just look at how they sold out fishing, again, during the Withdrawal Agreement negotiations.David_Evershed said:
The problem is those between the left behind and the right behind.Gardenwalker said:
My comment was flippant but not unfounded.David_Evershed said:Gardenwalker said:
Voters working in more globalised industries tended to support Remain. Those globalised industries tend to cluster in London, and the larger provincial cities.Sean_F said:
Broadly speaking, professional people in the Provinces favoured Leave. In Greater London, and centres of government and academia, they favoured Remain.Gardenwalker said:
No, sorry.Omnium said:
Not sure therefore there was anything crazy.Gardenwalker said:
Wrong. Crazily wrong.David_Evershed said:
Fear of change drives Remainers. But older people are more used to not being in the EU and so don't fear reverting back to being outside the EU.Gardenwalker said:
You know nothing, utterly nothing, of what drives Remainers.AmpfieldAndy said:Brexit, or the lack of Brexit which is sadly becoming more realistic , s bound to continue to be hugely divisive.
Too many people in the country don’t benefit and haven’t benefitted from Britain’s EU membership That’s evident to anyone who travels around the country
Hardly surprising therefore that no one has constructed a dea
Small wonder that Remainers who hold democracy in contempt like Grieve, Soubry, Greening etc are being allowed to stop Brexit in its tracks.
Remainers tend be younger, better educated and more liberal. All are classic proxies for openness to change.
Remainers were better educated, even allowing for the age effect.
This partly helps explains why they were able to see through the fake claims of Leave.
The economically and intellectually inactive tended to support Leave.
So 52% of the UK is economically and intellectually inactive.
We are doomed, doomed I tell ya.
Actually, one of the big problems with this country is that so much of it is “left behind”. And those left behind tended to vote for Brexit.0 -
It was. The only real influence we had was the petty one of withholding money and even that was never a great influence. Our influence within the EU was, at best, equivalent to one of 28 and, with the advent of the Euro area, actually even worse than that.Gardenwalker said:
You keep saying this. You seem to have convinced yourself that a) the EU was/is a foreign power - even a hostile foreign power, and that b) the U.K. lacked any influence inside the EU.Richard_Tyndall said:
Nope. As part of the EU our influence was effectively zero. All we could do was smile politely whilst the rest of the EU made decisions that suited them irrespective of whether or not they suited us.Recidivist said:
Your case is nowhere near as convincing as you seem to think it is. We gain influence if, and only if, we pack a bigger punch as an individual country than we do as part of a larger grouping. We might do in some cases, but it won't necessarily always apply. And it is just as likely to diminish as increase the sway we hold. It also doesn't take into account that we do have many common interests with our neighbours, so often we'll be voting the same way individually as we do collectively. And we will also not be able to benefit to the same extent from having expertise on our side, as we'll inevitably have a smaller pool of people to draw from to represent us.
I think the case that leaving the EU diminishes the UK's standing in the world is pretty solid.
Once out we can choose to support those changes that suit us, not the 'collective will' of the 28. Oh and if we really don't like something then, unlike being in the EU, we don't have t accept it. There is no QMV at an international level outside the EU.
I find these claims mystifying.
I suppose, if I am charitable (a) could be true if (b) was true, ie that our influence was so bad that the EU was a de facto foreign power.0
