A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
Please do NOT feed the Putunists
Now, hang on. Hyufd is a great many things, but he is definitely not a Putinist.
I beg to differ. Defending Putin's invasion on grounds that Ukraine provoked it, is THE Putinist line de jour.
Or perhaps you're convinced by chicken-shit, 180-degree rhetorical reversals, uttered for utterly political motivations?
When have I ever defended Putin's invasion.
I have said we should defend NATO states only and not get involved in Ukraine beyond economic sanctions but that is not defending Putin's invasion
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
(There was an amusing comment on a Formula 1 official post in late December when they posted a quote from the rules that said “Any race classified as a Grand Prix will be run under the supervision and control of Formula 1” and someone responded: “Oh? Not all Grands Prix, then?”)
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
Yeah, I know most modern armies have ARVs and recovery units, I’m just surprised that it’s a major thing that the Belorussians are involved with right at the minute.
Here’s a pic of an actual ARV round the corner from me, though the gimps that rented it out thought that tieing a scaffolding pole to it turned it into a tank.
I'm guessing that isn't your first choice watering hole in Glasgow
No indeed. The Louden Tavern is 30 paces up the road from it for that slightly more Unionjacky experience.
When I'm in that airt I lunch at the Mockintosh House in Bellahouston Park. But my chum and I usually try to avoid an Old Firm or just plain local FC playing at home match day.
https://twitter.com/uawire/status/1505598442248318981 "Member of #Russia-installed so-called "#Kherson rescue committee for peace and order", Pavel Slobodchikov, shot dead in occupied Kherson,his wife in grave condition."
Important purely because it's the first sign of a serious armed insurgency in occupied territory.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
Please do NOT feed the Putunists
Now, hang on. Hyufd is a great many things, but he is definitely not a Putinist.
I beg to differ. Defending Putin's invasion on grounds that Ukraine provoked it, is THE Putinist line de jour.
Or perhaps you're convinced by chicken-shit, 180-degree rhetorical reversals, uttered for utterly political motivations?
No, I'm just pointing out Putin hasn't yet endorsed the Tory line on anything so Hyufd wouldn't support him.
See your point!
However, does not the fact that Putin's henchpeople have donated much moolah (am still wondering just how much) to Conservative Party coffers constitute an endorsement? As well as anything contributed (betya more than zero) to keep Boris Johnson personally feed, watered and wall-papered?
Or is endorsing different from influencing? As in "influencing" the PM to overrule security services in putting first-class Putinist into the House of Lords?
That is, Baron Lebedev of Richmond-on-Thames and Siberia.
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Prediction of which I am not sure: Russia will never admit fault, and so will take ongoing sanctions rather than be seen to pay anything.
Following your rather grisly post, I have to recount to you a story told me by my late brother-in-law who worked for many years on London Underground.
He said they had a special crew for dealing with 'people under'. They were used to it and took what for most of us would be deeply disturbing work very much in their stride. Indeed they became rather blase about it, or so he said.
On one occasion they managed to recover the body of a suicide without difficulty, but not the head. By chance the wheels of the train had sliced it neatly off and sent it careering down the track. One of the men spotted it far down the tunnel and went to collect it. When he got to it he realised he was actually neared the next station than the one where the incident had happpened, so he picked the severed head up by the hair and marched on along the tunnel until he emerged at the next stop where the platform was obviously full due to the unexpected delay in the service.
Now a man emerging from a train tunnel holding a severed head would be a pretty shocking site even if you were expecting it, so it won't surprise you to know that many passengers fainted and had to be treated in situ. The worker was given a few days gardening leave.
I have no idea if this story is true but knowing my b-i-l and some of the guys he worked with I can well believe it.
I would 'like' your post, but it seems rather off to do so. II can believe it's true.
The friend was a senior linesman (or similar term) for the Signal and Telegraph. As he was a senior, it was 'his' job to do this - although he said sometimes 'evidence' was found days afterwards by others - if a train is travelling at 125MPH, it takes an age to stop, and the 'evidence' can be some distance from the track.
His boss was the head of the region's S&T (a nice chap, I knew him well). They would turn up as a pair to any incident, and were often on call to do so. Except if it was a major incident (e.g. fatal crash), in which case another region would do it (to avoid conflicts of interest).
I wish I'd talked to them more about their work whilst my friend was alive (and last I heard, his boss was very ill). Both were youngish.
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I find fish useful after a long hard day for the energy boost it gives me.
But I don't usually buy it from a chippy. It's too greasy, as are the chips.
The best chips round here are done by my local Chinese takeaway. Don't know what they cook them in but they're like the U-Boat captain's request 'crisp und light brown.'
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I asked for a saveloy here in Sheffield donkey's years back, as it's common in Coventry but they'd never heard of it. Where are you ?
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
There is a huge pile of Russian state assets that have been seized.
Expect that claims for the stuff Russia has seized (aircraft, the OneWeb launches) will be met from that.
Expect also that Ukraine will make a legal claim to reparations from the that pile....
Even their nuclear advantage will decline over time. It is unclear they can purchase all the inputs needed to maintain nukes over time. Plus the US is investing heavily in anti-missile technology via its close defense work with the Israelis. There could come a point in the future where the West could shoot all the nukes out of the sky.
The word "could" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I'd note that the US, Russian, and Chinese governments have much less ambitious aims for their ABM systems, limiting their expensive programmes to shooting down a few missiles from a rogue state, or defending only a small area. People have been working on ABM systems for over 60 years, and the cost of such systems has always favoured the attacker. i.e. It's cheap to up the number of targets, but it's expensive to increase the number and type of targets that can be engaged.
As the IRA observed "You have to be lucky always. We only have to be lucky once."
It's really quite simple. A decoy is dirt cheap, so you can lots of those for not much money, but you can't have a decoy interceptor, those have to be real. Never mind electronic warfare where you end up firing very expensive ABM missiles at ghosts.
Hence things like Sprint - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(missile) - which were designed to take out the incoming warheads after the decoys (which are basically balloons) become obvious during re-entry.
0 to Mach Ten in 5 seconds.
My favourite missile. But a perfect example of how bonkers ABM is. That you need two different interceptors, both with nuclear warheads, and bonkers acceleration, plus massive radar and guidance systems, and your exo-athmospheric missiles might be engaging decoys, leaving you something like 5 seconds or so to intercept the real warhead or warheads with your last line of defence. Oh and ever major target needs a system(s) like that. Meanwhile the Russians simply shove another warhead or two on the bus of their rather basic ICBM.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
Looks like the bellendery TSE spoke of in the header is not just limited to the nationalist side of the independence debate. Whoever could have guessed that would be the case?
Sadly bellendery is common across the political spectrum.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
I think it pretty certain that reparations will be part of the package to have sanctions lifted, but that will probably need regime change.
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I asked for a saveloy here in Sheffield donkey's years back, as it's common in Coventry but they'd never heard of it. Where are you ?
Well, this was London, but I may be misusing the term. Chip shop long cheap boiled or deep fried sausage. Meat percentage unknown. Different from a “catering sausage” though.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
Except this doesn't seem to be anything like what is happening in Ukraine.
Or, indeed, Scotland
No, it's what happened in Ukraine with EU accession and the Maidan protests.
Putin does see the issue in these terms. When he invades Ukraine he believes he is addressing a real problem that makes sense to him. The root cause isn't as he thinks it is, nor as you have presented it. To the extent Ukraine is a problem it's one entirely of his own making.
If we wind back to before 2014 Putin's view was arguable that Ukraine isn't a proper country and is really part of the Russian sphere. There was no great sense of Ukrainian national identity; the country was split east and west to pro-Russia and pro-Western factions; people were generally well disposed towards Russia. Putin's 2014 invasion and occupation of Crimea and Donbas changed all that overnight. People in East Ukraine saw the Russian threat and decided they wanted no part of it. Ukraine as a nation was forged in that invasion. The previous arguments between East and West Ukraine about Maidan were made moot; Everyone was Ukrainian now.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I asked for a saveloy here in Sheffield donkey's years back, as it's common in Coventry but they'd never heard of it. Where are you ?
Well, this was London, but I may be misusing the term. Chip shop long cheap boiled or deep fried sausage. Meat percentage unknown. Different from a “catering sausage” though.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
Interesting that in the chart the only action where a clear majority were unhappy with the UK government's handling of a past conflict was the Bosnian conflict in 1995-1993. Which if anything was an example of inaction rather than action
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I find fish useful after a long hard day for the energy boost it gives me.
But I don't usually buy it from a chippy. It's too greasy, as are the chips.
The best chips round here are done by my local Chinese takeaway. Don't know what they cook them in but they're like the U-Boat captain's request 'crisp und light brown.'
There are a few really good chippys near me, but the best is the mobile van.Theres a queue every week even before it parks.
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
Sounds like it's time for a fish order...
Only with an impeccable recommendation for the establishment. It’s only good if it’s good - and consistently so. Not if Maureen’s on shift.
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I asked for a saveloy here in Sheffield donkey's years back, as it's common in Coventry but they'd never heard of it. Where are you ?
Well, this was London, but I may be misusing the term. Chip shop long cheap boiled or deep fried sausage. Meat percentage unknown. Different from a “catering sausage” though.
Even their nuclear advantage will decline over time. It is unclear they can purchase all the inputs needed to maintain nukes over time. Plus the US is investing heavily in anti-missile technology via its close defense work with the Israelis. There could come a point in the future where the West could shoot all the nukes out of the sky.
The word "could" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I'd note that the US, Russian, and Chinese governments have much less ambitious aims for their ABM systems, limiting their expensive programmes to shooting down a few missiles from a rogue state, or defending only a small area. People have been working on ABM systems for over 60 years, and the cost of such systems has always favoured the attacker. i.e. It's cheap to up the number of targets, but it's expensive to increase the number and type of targets that can be engaged.
As the IRA observed "You have to be lucky always. We only have to be lucky once."
It's really quite simple. A decoy is dirt cheap, so you can lots of those for not much money, but you can't have a decoy interceptor, those have to be real. Never mind electronic warfare where you end up firing very expensive ABM missiles at ghosts.
Hence things like Sprint - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(missile) - which were designed to take out the incoming warheads after the decoys (which are basically balloons) become obvious during re-entry.
0 to Mach Ten in 5 seconds.
My favourite missile. But a perfect example of how bonkers ABM is. That you need two different interceptors, both with nuclear warheads, and bonkers acceleration, plus massive radar and guidance systems, and your exo-athmospheric missiles might be engaging decoys, leaving you something like 5 seconds or so to intercept the real warhead or warheads with your last line of defence. Oh and ever major target needs a system(s) like that. Meanwhile the Russians simply shove another warhead or two on the bus of their rather basic ICBM.
Then someone figures out the magnets and gets Free-Electron lasers to work at high power - 40-60% efficient conversion of electricity into laser light. Pick your wavelength.....
Even their nuclear advantage will decline over time. It is unclear they can purchase all the inputs needed to maintain nukes over time. Plus the US is investing heavily in anti-missile technology via its close defense work with the Israelis. There could come a point in the future where the West could shoot all the nukes out of the sky.
The word "could" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I'd note that the US, Russian, and Chinese governments have much less ambitious aims for their ABM systems, limiting their expensive programmes to shooting down a few missiles from a rogue state, or defending only a small area. People have been working on ABM systems for over 60 years, and the cost of such systems has always favoured the attacker. i.e. It's cheap to up the number of targets, but it's expensive to increase the number and type of targets that can be engaged.
As the IRA observed "You have to be lucky always. We only have to be lucky once."
It's really quite simple. A decoy is dirt cheap, so you can lots of those for not much money, but you can't have a decoy interceptor, those have to be real. Never mind electronic warfare where you end up firing very expensive ABM missiles at ghosts.
Hence things like Sprint - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprint_(missile) - which were designed to take out the incoming warheads after the decoys (which are basically balloons) become obvious during re-entry.
0 to Mach Ten in 5 seconds.
My favourite missile. But a perfect example of how bonkers ABM is. That you need two different interceptors, both with nuclear warheads, and bonkers acceleration, plus massive radar and guidance systems, and your exo-athmospheric missiles might be engaging decoys, leaving you something like 5 seconds or so to intercept the real warhead or warheads with your last line of defence. Oh and ever major target needs a system(s) like that. Meanwhile the Russians simply shove another warhead or two on the bus of their rather basic ICBM.
That's why laser defences are the way forward IMO. *If* they can be made to work at all, let alone in all weathers.
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I asked for a saveloy here in Sheffield donkey's years back, as it's common in Coventry but they'd never heard of it. Where are you ?
Well, this was London, but I may be misusing the term. Chip shop long cheap boiled or deep fried sausage. Meat percentage unknown. Different from a “catering sausage” though.
Saveloy is a red spiced sausage.
Ah, then no. Just chip shop sausage.
Available online. I suspect home use will be dissapointing though:
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
Hold on, what did Iraq do to provoke GW2?
Well, for one thing their behaviour towards the weapons inspectors was not exactly good. A regular PB poster wrote a book about the experience ...
But that's the point: it was unfinished business. The guy who had tried to defeat Iran, gassed the Kurds, and invaded Kuwait was still in power, and no-one trusted him.
(There was an amusing comment on a Formula 1 official post in late December when they posted a quote from the rules that said “Any race classified as a Grand Prix will be run under the supervision and control of Formula 1” and someone responded: “Oh? Not all Grands Prix, then?”)
Indeed, the top level of dressage is called Grand Prix. It would be very interesting to hold those under Formula 1 rules.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
Hold on, what did Iraq do to provoke GW2?
Well, for one thing their behaviour towards the weapons inspectors was not exactly good. A regular PB poster wrote a book about the experience ...
But that's the point: it was unfinished business. The guy who had tried to defeat Iran, gassed the Kurds, and invaded Kuwait was still in power, and no-one trusted him.
(There was an amusing comment on a Formula 1 official post in late December when they posted a quote from the rules that said “Any race classified as a Grand Prix will be run under the supervision and control of Formula 1” and someone responded: “Oh? Not all Grands Prix, then?”)
Indeed, the top level of dressage is called Grand Prix. It would be very interesting to hold those under Formula 1 rules.
I've seen a picture somewhere of a horse 'dressed' as a 1980's era F1 car, complete with 'driver' on top in helmet and orveralls.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
Hold on, what did Iraq do to provoke GW2?
Well, for one thing their behaviour towards the weapons inspectors was not exactly good. A regular PB poster wrote a book about the experience ...
But that's the point: it was unfinished business. The guy who had tried to defeat Iran, gassed the Kurds, and invaded Kuwait was still in power, and no-one trusted him.
Who / what book?
I'll let him mention it if he wants. It was a very interesting book IMO, and has some fairly hair-raising stories. Other readers may differ, but to me, it showed exactly why no-one believed Saddam or Iraq.
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I asked for a saveloy here in Sheffield donkey's years back, as it's common in Coventry but they'd never heard of it. Where are you ?
Well, this was London, but I may be misusing the term. Chip shop long cheap boiled or deep fried sausage. Meat percentage unknown. Different from a “catering sausage” though.
Saveloy is a red spiced sausage.
Usually sold as Saveloi. They were very cheap. Tasty though and the gristle was, I'm sure, real.
(Actually very heavily minced, so you had no idea)
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
Except this doesn't seem to be anything like what is happening in Ukraine.
Or, indeed, Scotland
No, it's what happened in Ukraine with EU accession and the Maidan protests.
Putin does see the issue in these terms. When he invades Ukraine he believes he is addressing a real problem that makes sense to him. The root cause isn't as he thinks it is, nor as you have presented it. To the extent Ukraine is a problem it's one entirely of his own making.
If we wind back to before 2014 Putin's view was arguable that Ukraine isn't a proper country and is really part of the Russian sphere. There was no great sense of Ukrainian national identity; the country was split east and west to pro-Russia and pro-Western factions; people were generally well disposed towards Russia. Putin's 2014 invasion and occupation of Crimea and Donbas changed all that overnight. People in East Ukraine saw the Russian threat and decided they wanted no part of it. Ukraine as a nation was forged in that invasion. The previous arguments between East and West Ukraine about Maidan were made moot; Everyone was Ukrainian now.
You may be right, but I had not reached that stage in the chronology. That would be the RUK Government's shock annexation of the Orkneys, followed by a swift plebiscite of the Islanders declaring 99% of them to be in favour of returning to the UK. After which you might very probably see a negative reaction in the rest of Scotland...
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
Hold on, what did Iraq do to provoke GW2?
Well, for one thing their behaviour towards the weapons inspectors was not exactly good. A regular PB poster wrote a book about the experience ...
But that's the point: it was unfinished business. The guy who had tried to defeat Iran, gassed the Kurds, and invaded Kuwait was still in power, and no-one trusted him.
Who / what book?
I'll let him mention it if he wants. It was a very interesting book IMO, and has some fairly hair-raising stories. Other readers may differ, but to me, it showed exactly why no-one believed Saddam or Iraq.
You can recommend the book without saying the author's PB username
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I would always go for the saveloy. When I became a grown up I started going for the fish mostly as it seems like what you are supposed to do. Which is good, but since establishing the local does indeed still provide saveloy I've gone back to them.
The surprising thing is how many chippies don't have great chips. I have to go to a particular one to make sure of the best, as many are not up to scratch.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I would always go for the saveloy. When I became a grown up I started going for the fish mostly as it seems like what you are supposed to do. Which is good, but since establishing the local does indeed still provide saveloy I've gone back to them.
We should all eat what we enjoy (in moderation) but I think the fish is probably a bit better for you. Apparently, the way the meat is arranged on a molecular level protects the nourishing bits inside somewhat from the heat of deep frying. It wouldn't surprise me.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
Hold on, what did Iraq do to provoke GW2?
Well, for one thing their behaviour towards the weapons inspectors was not exactly good. A regular PB poster wrote a book about the experience ...
But that's the point: it was unfinished business. The guy who had tried to defeat Iran, gassed the Kurds, and invaded Kuwait was still in power, and no-one trusted him.
Who / what book?
I'll let him mention it if he wants. It was a very interesting book IMO, and has some fairly hair-raising stories. Other readers may differ, but to me, it showed exactly why no-one believed Saddam or Iraq.
You can recommend the book without saying the author's PB username
Not really, as his username is easy to discern from the author's name...
Although he's mentioned the book on here in the past, so I'm not quite sure why I'm so reticent...
Zelenskyy has been speaking to the Knesset. He quoted Shakespeare and Churchill in the UK, mentioned Pearl Harbour and 9/11 to the US Congress. I can have a guess at the angle he might use with Israel.
It's almost like he's a competent media performer who knows his audience.
I noticed that, in his speech to the Bundestag, he spoke of Babi Yar and the Holocaust. Almost as he if knows that German guilt, rather than German pride, is the button to push in Berlin
Someone from Greece tried that once - Yanis Varoufakis was it? - and it went down like a bucket of cold sick.
Babi Yar had not just been been bombed by the Russians at the time.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
I prefer my way of trolling Russia. Absolutely coincidentally (*), the areas where Russia has forged separatism - Crimea, Donbass, Transniestra - all have oil and gas reserves. Odd that.
As Russia say they want the territory, say they can have Crimea, but the oil and gas in the waters surrounding it are Ukraine's. They should not mind as it is the territory and people they are interested in.
A good friend of mine who knows about this sort of thing is confident lasers are going to get good enough for intercepting missiles and aircraft, but you still end up with the same sort of issues as ABM missiles about how many places you can protect, and how many targets you can engage. Lasers have been seen as the answer for at least 50 odd years now, and they are still in the "coming real soon" category.
It's simply easier to attack a large stationary target like a city than it is to intercept a tiny, possibly phoney, fast moving target. Until that changes a nationwide full scale ABM system is a pipe dream.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
And yet people are quite happily contemplating a multitude of settlements that would not be fair to the people of Ukraine in order to avoid having to worry about their own safety.
Nor was the creation of Kaliningrad fair to the Germans who lived there.
I am not advocating it. Just pointing out inconsistencies.
A good friend of mine who knows about this sort of thing is confident lasers are going to get good enough for intercepting missiles and aircraft, but you still end up with the same sort of issues as ABM missiles about how many places you can protect, and how many targets you can engage. Lasers have been seen as the answer for at least 50 odd years now, and they are still in the "coming real soon" category.
It's simply easier to attack a large stationary target like a city than it is to intercept a tiny, possibly phoney, fast moving target. Until that changes a nationwide full scale ABM system is a pipe dream.
There are a whole host of issues to do with lasers. If it was easy, it would already have been done. But I think they're a more 'workable' solution than ABM hittiles.
There are a whole host of issues to do with lasers. If it was easy, it would already have been done. But I think they're a more 'workable' solution than ABM hittiles.
Absolutely, but more workable doesn't mean an ABM system that can make nuclear wars winnable is affordable or practical, it merely means it's less unafforable and less impractical.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
The Ukraine war is moving towards a stalemate according to what I have read. The Russian aim for a quick victory has been thwarted but they now move on to plan B, i.e. pound the cities into submission with bombs.
What puzzles me is why the successful Ukrainian attacks with hand-held rockets and drones against tanks and vehicles would not work against artillery howitzers. Can anyone explain?
Ukraine has been using SOF to isolate and attack tanks caught in vulnerable pinch points. Artillery is further behind the lines - so harder to access - and sited as Russia wants them so better defended
It’s not that they wouldn’t work, but the risk/reward calculation is different
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Two wrongs don't make a right. I can't begin to imaging the problems we'd be storing up for the future by turning Putin's feverish and mad accusations into reality.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Kaliningrad would undoubtedly vote to stay with Russia. So it would be a rather pointless gesture.
TIL that the Soviets, led by Russian NKVD operatives, killed up to 20,000 during the 1937-1938 Great Terror in Vinnytsya region alone, where I am currently at.
The city is dotted with monuments at execution areas and mass graves.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Kaliningrad would undoubtedly vote to stay with Russia. So it would be a rather pointless gesture.
I'm not sure that the provision would be pointless; there are plenty of other areas depending how far it goes.
How would the former (part of) Karelia now in Russia vote wrt rejoining Finland, for example?
Seems a bit odd that resources are allocated to tank recovery at this stage of the conflict, and that ones containing the disassembled remains of their crews can be returned to service quickly. Aiui after 1945 Eastern Europe & the SU were littered with tank carcasses for years.
This bloke sounds knowledgeable
More common than capturing enemy weapons off a battlefield, was each side salvaging their own equipment. All of the major armies had repair & recovery units specializing in getting salvageable equipment off the battlefield. The Soviet and American armies were very adept at this, in both cases not only were there specialized recovery units but some themselves were sub-specialized in taking equipment off “hot” battlefields, even stripping or towing vehicles under the cover of darkness.
...
The M32 is a good example of a WWII vehicle dedicated to recovering and towing wrecked tanks. Based on the M4 Sherman tank chassis, it had a 30-ton deadlift A-frame crane and a front-mounted winch. The highly successful M32 served in WWII, the Korean War, and beyond.
The worst part of the job is hosing out human remains; it is so bad it has been used as a field punishment, and it causes deep trauma
The Russians, in surprise news to no one, are getting their ‘allies’ in Belarus to do this bit, instead of traumatising their own troops
It's a really smart idea of course to damage the Belarusian military at this stage. After all, Lukashenko didn't barely survive being toppled less than three years ago when everyone ignored his bizarrely rigged election results, with the support of his own army and the Russian army.
I mean, if he had barely survived and was hanging on by his fingernails, next time he might actually be toppled and Russia would lose its last ally.
Don’t exaggerate! They still have Eritrea’s support!
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Two wrongs don't make a right. I can't begin to imaging the problems we'd be storing up for the future by turning Putin's feverish and mad accusations into reality.
Personally I think that is a perhaps partly a red herring, and that "republics" etc perhaps have a right to self-determination.
There are also plenty of pieces of other countries Ru has obtained by conquest quite recently.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Kaliningrad would undoubtedly vote to stay with Russia. So it would be a rather pointless gesture.
I'm not sure that the provision would be pointless; there are plenty of other areas depending how far it goes.
How would the former (part of) Karelia now in Russia vote wrt rejoining Finland, for example?
The same way, and for the same reason. The population was ethnically cleansed and replaced by Russians. They would vote to stay with Russia.
Stalin did to these areas what Putin is doing in Mariupol right now, but at the time nobody objected as it was happening in so many places. All over Eastern Europe. In the Middle East, especially but not exclusively in Palestine and Israel. In India and Pakistan.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
@ Stillwaters. You clearly have not heard the narrative that he who pokes the bear is responsible for the carnage caused by the awoken bear. (And no, I did not just mention WOKE)
PS I need to go out for popcorn.
I did just hear a US lawyer refer to highlighting a particular issue with a US public company as “poking the bear”.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
You really are being nasty again (para 2). And as for para 1, you think there would be no trade deal with the EU?
Please do NOT feed the Putunists
Now, hang on. Hyufd is a great many things, but he is definitely not a Putinist.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Also I'm not sure the people of Kaliningrad WOULD want to remain part of Russia. GDP per capita:
Best thing about Putin's rampant influence-peddling re: Conservative Party in general, and Boris Johnson in particular, is that it's compelled the Prime Minister to ship arms to Ukraine so as to (partly) avoid be branded as Putinist stooge like Trumpsky & Co.
Arms supply by UK to UKR also allows HMG to hold the line re: UKR refugees, thus pleasing Tory base AND red-wallers.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
History suggests, though, that with outside support, countries can rebuild remarkably quickly.
I believe West German GDP was reaching new highs by 1950 in the early 1950s.
A better analogy than Boris's EU vs. Britain = Russia vs. Ukraine one would be a post-separation Scotland wanting to join the EU, but RUK, for strategic reasons, is very anti. It offers the RUK-friendly Scottish PM a wide-ranging trade deal with RUK if Scotland gives up it's attempt to join the EU. However, it all kicks off on the Scottish side, as the attempt by RUK to decide the course of Scotland's future is resented by many, and many others frankly just hate the bones of the English, so it doesn't matter that there's probably more benefit in the UK deal than the EU deal for Scotland, protests kick off (aided by the EU) and unseat the RUK favouring PM, replacing him with an EU-loving one. There's pretty much open dislike from then on, RUK accusing the EU of unwarranted interference in it's back yard, the EU insisting that the UK is being a bully and attempting to thwart the will of the Scottish people. Scottish people growing steadily less pro-RUK, except a significant English minority, who are just getting more and more nervous. Etc.
I’m missing the bit where, in any circumstances, thus would justify rUK invading Scotland, razing Edinburgh to the ground, deporting the surviving population to Wales and repopulating the country with a bunch of Sassenachs
Well, it doesn't, as it doesn't in Russia's case either, but yet it's not impossible to see circumstances where the scenario might get really ugly.
I am confident that, despite @HYUFD entreaties, rUK would not invade Scotland.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
No, we could just refuse Scotland a trade deal if they joined the EU instead.
Though if a Scottish nationalist government was ever granted an indyref2 and Yes won then the Scottish borders could well become the Scottish Donbass region, a disputed region claimed by both the rUK and Scottish government with a Unionist pro British majority stoll
Looks like the bellendery TSE spoke of in the header is not just limited to the nationalist side of the independence debate. Whoever could have guessed that would be the case?
Sadly bellendery is common across the political spectrum.
What is really funny is, reading through these comments from the latest working back as I have been out today, as soon as I saw the Scottish Donbass comment I knew, without even scrolling through to see the author, exactly which particular bellend must have written it.
Following your rather grisly post, I have to recount to you a story told me by my late brother-in-law who worked for many years on London Underground.
He said they had a special crew for dealing with 'people under'. They were used to it and took what for most of us would be deeply disturbing work very much in their stride. Indeed they became rather blase about it, or so he said.
On one occasion they managed to recover the body of a suicide without difficulty, but not the head. By chance the wheels of the train had sliced it neatly off and sent it careering down the track. One of the men spotted it far down the tunnel and went to collect it. When he got to it he realised he was actually neared the next station than the one where the incident had happpened, so he picked the severed head up by the hair and marched on along the tunnel until he emerged at the next stop where the platform was obviously full due to the unexpected delay in the service.
Now a man emerging from a train tunnel holding a severed head would be a pretty shocking site even if you were expecting it, so it won't surprise you to know that many passengers fainted and had to be treated in situ. The worker was given a few days gardening leave.
I have no idea if this story is true but knowing my b-i-l and some of the guys he worked with I can well believe it.
A gruesomely brilliant story. An unwholesome bit of me *wants* it to be true
Why don’t you mention it to an author friend of yours. I’m sure she can incorporate it in a novel somehow
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Two wrongs don't make a right. I can't begin to imaging the problems we'd be storing up for the future by turning Putin's feverish and mad accusations into reality.
Personally I think that is a perhaps partly a red herring, and that "republics" etc perhaps have a right to self-determination.
There are also plenty of pieces of other countries Ru has obtained by conquest quite recently.
This is an interesting and appalling thread on life in the Donetsk "republic", published last August. One of the strongest motivators of Ukranian resistance is that life in a Russian separatist Republic is very grim.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Also I'm not sure the people of Kaliningrad WOULD want to remain part of Russia. GDP per capita:
Seems to me Kaliningrad might delight in being an independent, wealthy, free from autocracy member of the EU.
Though having a significantly lower GDP per capita compared to Russia doesn't seem to have led to Ukranians welcoming Russian occupiers. There are some things money cannot buy.
Best thing about Putin's rampant influence-peddling re: Conservative Party in general, and Boris Johnson in particular, is that it's compelled the Prime Minister to ship arms to Ukraine so as to (partly) avoid be branded as Putinist stooge like Trumpsky & Co.
Arms supply by UK to UKR also allows HMG to hold the line re: UKR refugees, thus pleasing Tory base AND red-wallers.
The arms and training by UK has been ongoing since 2015
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Kaliningrad would undoubtedly vote to stay with Russia. So it would be a rather pointless gesture.
I'm not sure that the provision would be pointless; there are plenty of other areas depending how far it goes.
How would the former (part of) Karelia now in Russia vote wrt rejoining Finland, for example?
The same way, and for the same reason. The population was ethnically cleansed and replaced by Russians. They would vote to stay with Russia.
Stalin did to these areas what Putin is doing in Mariupol right now, but at the time nobody objected as it was happening in so many places. All over Eastern Europe. In the Middle East, especially but not exclusively in Palestine and Israel. In India and Pakistan.
The Palestinian population wasn't pushed out of their territory prior to 1948.
Best thing about Putin's rampant influence-peddling re: Conservative Party in general, and Boris Johnson in particular, is that it's compelled the Prime Minister to ship arms to Ukraine so as to (partly) avoid be branded as Putinist stooge like Trumpsky & Co.
Arms supply by UK to UKR also allows HMG to hold the line re: UKR refugees, thus pleasing Tory base AND red-wallers.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
History suggests, though, that with outside support, countries can rebuild remarkably quickly.
I believe West German GDP was reaching new highs by 1950 in the early 1950s.
The Marshall Plan was atypically generous
And not only for Europe, but also for USA farmers, manufacturers, workers, etc. Not to mention building a bulwark versus Russian expansionism.
Motivation of Marshall Plan was NOT unalloyed generosity but rather intelligent self-interest.
Seeing as how Western nations & businesses have (mostly) wasted & lost millions trying to do business with Putin's Russia, investing in Ukrainian reconstruction appears a MUCH better bet, both short-term and long-run.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Also I'm not sure the people of Kaliningrad WOULD want to remain part of Russia. GDP per capita:
Seems to me Kaliningrad might delight in being an independent, wealthy, free from autocracy member of the EU.
Though having a significantly lower GDP per capita compared to Russia doesn't seem to have led to Ukranians welcoming Russian occupiers. There are some things money cannot buy.
That is because (a) Russian GDP is distorted massively by gas rents that do not trickle down the regular people and (b) Western neighbors of Ukraine as much wealthier than Russia. You are right Kaliningrad has non-economic interests too, but chief among them is being able to vote for your own government and not being thrown in prison for criticizing your government.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Kaliningrad would undoubtedly vote to stay with Russia. So it would be a rather pointless gesture.
I'm not sure that the provision would be pointless; there are plenty of other areas depending how far it goes.
How would the former (part of) Karelia now in Russia vote wrt rejoining Finland, for example?
82% Russian in 2010, only 7.4% Karelian, 1.4% Finnish
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Prediction of which I am not sure: Russia will never admit fault, and so will take ongoing sanctions rather than be seen to pay anything.
Best thing about Putin's rampant influence-peddling re: Conservative Party in general, and Boris Johnson in particular, is that it's compelled the Prime Minister to ship arms to Ukraine so as to (partly) avoid be branded as Putinist stooge like Trumpsky & Co.
Arms supply by UK to UKR also allows HMG to hold the line re: UKR refugees, thus pleasing Tory base AND red-wallers.
The arms and training by UK has been ongoing since 2015
Yes, under a normal (if underwelming) Conservative government, in concert with NATO.
In contrast, in leadup and aftermath of invasion, Boris Johnson went into overdrive. Motivated only by his Churchillian love of freedom? Or need to deflect questions re: dodgy Russian donations, dodgy Russian peer, dodgy overriding of security services, etc., etc.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Prediction of which I am not sure: Russia will never admit fault, and so will take ongoing sanctions rather than be seen to pay anything.
They will charge it to Russia’s foreign reserves
Who will? Only America can do that. Does it want to? Ukraine will not want to lose any more schools and hospitals while a ceasefire is hammered out.
Best thing about Putin's rampant influence-peddling re: Conservative Party in general, and Boris Johnson in particular, is that it's compelled the Prime Minister to ship arms to Ukraine so as to (partly) avoid be branded as Putinist stooge like Trumpsky & Co.
Arms supply by UK to UKR also allows HMG to hold the line re: UKR refugees, thus pleasing Tory base AND red-wallers.
The arms and training by UK has been ongoing since 2015
It's not just energy cost rocketing. 40% of chippy fish comes from Russia, and consumers are skint.
I’m always surprised so many people go for the fish. When I was younger and poorer I always balked at the cost and got pie & chips or, if desperate, saveloy and chips.
I asked for a saveloy here in Sheffield donkey's years back, as it's common in Coventry but they'd never heard of it. Where are you ?
Well, this was London, but I may be misusing the term. Chip shop long cheap boiled or deep fried sausage. Meat percentage unknown. Different from a “catering sausage” though.
Saveloy is a red spiced sausage.
Ah, then no. Just chip shop sausage.
What’s the difference between a saveloy and a frankfurter?
(Mind you I was firmly told off the other day by my host for referring to a “saucisse” as a “saucisson”)
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Kaliningrad would undoubtedly vote to stay with Russia. So it would be a rather pointless gesture.
I'm not sure that the provision would be pointless; there are plenty of other areas depending how far it goes.
How would the former (part of) Karelia now in Russia vote wrt rejoining Finland, for example?
The same way, and for the same reason. The population was ethnically cleansed and replaced by Russians. They would vote to stay with Russia.
Stalin did to these areas what Putin is doing in Mariupol right now, but at the time nobody objected as it was happening in so many places. All over Eastern Europe. In the Middle East, especially but not exclusively in Palestine and Israel. In India and Pakistan.
The Palestinian population wasn't pushed out of their territory prior to 1948.
Actually they were. The Nakba - which is the Arabic term for the displacement - started when Palestine was still part of the British Mandate. There was a massive effort at ethnic cleansing by the Zionists starting immediately after the plans for partition had been approved by the UN. This was why, by the time Israel was formed in 1948 they already controlled almost 80% of Palestine rather than the 55% they had been assigned under the UN plan. This was all done before the war in 1948.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
That's not really fair to the people of Kaliningrad
Since Putin is demanding that areas of Ukraine be allowed to vote to secede, the same for areas of (currently) Russia seems not unreasonable.
Kaliningrad would undoubtedly vote to stay with Russia. So it would be a rather pointless gesture.
I'm not sure that the provision would be pointless; there are plenty of other areas depending how far it goes.
How would the former (part of) Karelia now in Russia vote wrt rejoining Finland, for example?
The same way, and for the same reason. The population was ethnically cleansed and replaced by Russians. They would vote to stay with Russia.
Stalin did to these areas what Putin is doing in Mariupol right now, but at the time nobody objected as it was happening in so many places. All over Eastern Europe. In the Middle East, especially but not exclusively in Palestine and Israel. In India and Pakistan.
The Palestinian population wasn't pushed out of their territory prior to 1948.
Leaving aside the extremely vexed question of how true that is, I was referring to the later 1940s as a whole. India/Pakistan didn't see major population movements until partition.
Russia really doesn’t want a functioning Ukraine - even in the areas it might think it has a chance of holding.
https://twitter.com/MrKovalenko/status/1505255982368186380 The Russian air force completelly destroyed the one of the largest in #Europe metallurgical plants #AzovStal in #Mariupol city. "It's impossible to restart it. All is destroyed" said deputy city mayor Sergey Orlov for #Ukrainian media Forbes.
Just add it onto the reparations.
What reparations? Ukraine will not prolong the war over reparations. Look to Uncle Sam, the EU and even dear old Blighty to pick up the tab. There may be a question over whether America will insist on reparations as the price for lifting sanctions.
Ukraine won't. The rest of the world might make reparations part of the price for the removal of sanctions. "You broke it, you pay for it."
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
I think restoring Crimea to Ukraine and confiscating Kaliningrad would do a better job at this than financial reparations.
In the same way as I know that Mrs T would not have nuked Argentina
@ Stillwaters. You clearly have not heard the narrative that he who pokes the bear is responsible for the carnage caused by the awoken bear. (And no, I did not just mention WOKE)
PS I need to go out for popcorn.
I did just hear a US lawyer refer to highlighting a particular issue with a US public company as “poking the bear”.
I did not comment
Yes, but that may well not have anything to do with Russian bears. Poking a bear may just be a wildlife idiom in America.
Comments
I have said we should defend NATO states only and not get involved in Ukraine beyond economic sanctions but that is not defending Putin's invasion
"Member of #Russia-installed so-called "#Kherson rescue committee for peace and order", Pavel Slobodchikov, shot dead in occupied Kherson,his wife in grave condition."
Important purely because it's the first sign of a serious armed insurgency in occupied territory.
However, does not the fact that Putin's henchpeople have donated much moolah (am still wondering just how much) to Conservative Party coffers constitute an endorsement? As well as anything contributed (betya more than zero) to keep Boris Johnson personally feed, watered and wall-papered?
Or is endorsing different from influencing? As in "influencing" the PM to overrule security services in putting first-class Putinist into the House of Lords?
That is, Baron Lebedev of Richmond-on-Thames and Siberia.
I may not have drunk alcohol but I've certainly bought a lot for other people.
The friend was a senior linesman (or similar term) for the Signal and Telegraph. As he was a senior, it was 'his' job to do this - although he said sometimes 'evidence' was found days afterwards by others - if a train is travelling at 125MPH, it takes an age to stop, and the 'evidence' can be some distance from the track.
His boss was the head of the region's S&T (a nice chap, I knew him well). They would turn up as a pair to any incident, and were often on call to do so. Except if it was a major incident (e.g. fatal crash), in which case another region would do it (to avoid conflicts of interest).
I wish I'd talked to them more about their work whilst my friend was alive (and last I heard, his boss was very ill). Both were youngish.
But I don't usually buy it from a chippy. It's too greasy, as are the chips.
The best chips round here are done by my local Chinese takeaway. Don't know what they cook them in but they're like the U-Boat captain's request 'crisp und light brown.'
Where are you ?
Expect that claims for the stuff Russia has seized (aircraft, the OneWeb launches) will be met from that.
Expect also that Ukraine will make a legal claim to reparations from the that pile....
If we wind back to before 2014 Putin's view was arguable that Ukraine isn't a proper country and is really part of the Russian sphere. There was no great sense of Ukrainian national identity; the country was split east and west to pro-Russia and pro-Western factions; people were generally well disposed towards Russia. Putin's 2014 invasion and occupation of Crimea and Donbas changed all that overnight. People in East Ukraine saw the Russian threat and decided they wanted no part of it. Ukraine as a nation was forged in that invasion. The previous arguments between East and West Ukraine about Maidan were made moot; Everyone was Ukrainian now.
I think it's important for Russia to realise it did this, and that it lost. Germany did not get fully defeated in WW1, so a myth of treachery could develop. Only after full defeat in WW2 did it change. The same with Iraq: GW1 was a defeat for Iraq, but not a big one. Hence there was round 2.
If there is peace (hopefully!), and we want to avoid this happening again in a few years, Russia needs to know it was the aggressor, and that it lost. That does not mean we need to invade, but it does mean that they need to accept their crimes. And that probably means removing Putin and his fellow travellers.
The pie will be Pukka every time.
Also, advanced radar system. I know a few people at this place:
https://www.aveillant.com/
https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/snacking---cooked-sausage-44/saveloy-sausage-260g
But that's the point: it was unfinished business. The guy who had tried to defeat Iran, gassed the Kurds, and invaded Kuwait was still in power, and no-one trusted him.
(Actually very heavily minced, so you had no idea)
The surprising thing is how many chippies don't have great chips. I have to go to a particular one to make sure of the best, as many are not up to scratch.
Belarusians joke:
@navalny has fought with corruption in #Russia. But when you look at the Russian army, it is good that he didn't win.
Although he's mentioned the book on here in the past, so I'm not quite sure why I'm so reticent...
As Russia say they want the territory, say they can have Crimea, but the oil and gas in the waters surrounding it are Ukraine's. They should not mind as it is the territory and people they are interested in.
(*) Not really.
It's simply easier to attack a large stationary target like a city than it is to intercept a tiny, possibly phoney, fast moving target. Until that changes a nationwide full scale ABM system is a pipe dream.
Nor was the creation of Kaliningrad fair to the Germans who lived there.
I am not advocating it. Just pointing out inconsistencies.
'Our neighbours want us dead.'
It’s not that they wouldn’t work, but the risk/reward calculation is different
https://twitter.com/TheSTMagazine/status/1505522206637543432
And article from the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/20/how-british-tank-busters-are-helping-ukraine-halt-russian-attack?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other
https://internationallaw.blog/2022/03/02/ukraine-and-russia-before-international-courts-recent-developments/
I'm sure they have reparations on their mind.
And there are perhaps $350-400 billion of Russian Govt reserves in various EU countries, the UK and the USA.
Why shouldn't a lien be placed on those pending the outcome of the cases?
Plus presumably the ill-gotten gains of oligarchs from defrauding the Russian Govt also count as Russian Govt property, arguably.
IMO it would be madness *not* to go after them.
The city is dotted with monuments at execution areas and mass graves.
And some wonder why Ukrainians won't surrender.
https://twitter.com/Mortis_Banned/status/1505436932255498242
Zelensky speech to the Knesset seems to have ruffled a few feathers
How would the former (part of) Karelia now in Russia vote wrt rejoining Finland, for example?
There are also plenty of pieces of other countries Ru has obtained by conquest quite recently.
Stalin did to these areas what Putin is doing in Mariupol right now, but at the time nobody objected as it was happening in so many places. All over Eastern Europe. In the Middle East, especially but not exclusively in Palestine and Israel. In India and Pakistan.
I did not comment
Kaliningrad: $7,330
Poland: $15,656
Lithuania: $19,997
Seems to me Kaliningrad might delight in being an independent, wealthy, free from autocracy member of the EU.
Arms supply by UK to UKR also allows HMG to hold the line re: UKR refugees, thus pleasing Tory base AND red-wallers.
https://twitter.com/nichvydycia/status/1427292299567026180?t=N3i3K53JckvRIBUX3CN1ng&s=19
https://medium.com/voices-of-the-armed-forces/operation-orbital-explained-training-ukrainian-armed-forces-59405d32d604
Motivation of Marshall Plan was NOT unalloyed generosity but rather intelligent self-interest.
Seeing as how Western nations & businesses have (mostly) wasted & lost millions trying to do business with Putin's Russia, investing in Ukrainian reconstruction appears a MUCH better bet, both short-term and long-run.
In contrast, in leadup and aftermath of invasion, Boris Johnson went into overdrive. Motivated only by his Churchillian love of freedom? Or need to deflect questions re: dodgy Russian donations, dodgy Russian peer, dodgy overriding of security services, etc., etc.
Plenty of "True Tory" Blue water between the two!
(Mind you I was firmly told off the other day by my host for referring to a “saucisse” as a “saucisson”)
Taking Kaliningrad would set up the next war