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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Foreign Office goes on the PR offence over Russian Salisbu

SystemSystem Posts: 11,004
edited March 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Foreign Office goes on the PR offence over Russian Salisbury disinformation

The nerve agent came from Sweden,Ukraine did it to frame Russia,It was contamination from the UK's own research facility…

Read the full story here


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  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,690
    Corbyn's equivocation is baffling.
  • Options
    saddosaddo Posts: 534
    Could be Corbyn is the complete idiot most non cult follower's see
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    https://twitter.com/toniasamsonova/status/976071145941282816?s=20
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,248
    It is his default setting.

    He cannot criticise Moscow.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,690
    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/fishingforleave/status/976097513496285187

    I fully expected Leavers to blame Remainers and the EU for the shortcomings of Brexit. I didn't expect them to blame other Brexiteers.
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    FF43 said:

    Corbyn's equivocation is baffling.

    It is not baffling at all. Corbyn has been totally rigid in his views for 40 years and is not going to change it now.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,248
    CarlottaVance said:

    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    https://twitter.com/toniasamsonova/status/976071145941282816?s=20

    Yeah, it explains the lack of interviews/photos with the victims. I think they are having slow agonising deaths, which seems to fit the modus operandi of Moscow.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Is the video for domestic consumption, I wonder?

    If so, then it's encouraging to see the government fighting back.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Does the FO go on the PR offence - or on the PR offensive?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    Is the video for domestic consumption, I wonder?

    If so, then it's encouraging to see the government fighting back.

    I wonder if it will be shared with Jeremy Corbyn?
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    MarqueeMark said:

    Does the FO go on the PR offence - or on the PR offensive?

    I vote for both ....
  • Options
    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The government (indeed, all governments) should do a lot more of this. It is a good thing for governments to communicate their policy positions in clearly understood and relevant ways.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,187
    MikeSmithson said:

    FF43 said:

    Corbyn's equivocation is baffling.

    It is not baffling at all. Corbyn has been totally rigid in his views for 40 years and is not going to change it now.
    He's like that Japanese soldier who spent year's in the jungle, refusing to accept that the war was over.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    tlg86 said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    FF43 said:

    Corbyn's equivocation is baffling.

    It is not baffling at all. Corbyn has been totally rigid in his views for 40 years and is not going to change it now.
    He's like that Japanese soldier who spent year's in the jungle, refusing to accept that the war was over.
    At least the Japanese soldier gave up after several decades.....
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    Well done to the Foreign Office for this. I wouldn’t be surprised if someone friendly hasn’t redone the whole thing in Russian by the end of the day.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,570
    https://twitter.com/RossFootball/status/975746882403217413?s=20
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,879
    CarlottaVance said:

    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    https://twitter.com/toniasamsonova/status/976071145941282816?s=20

    An important question is what this means for the policeman who was infected.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    It's a smart video. Some of the comments are nuts, but that's Twitter...
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    edited March 2018
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    https://twitter.com/toniasamsonova/status/976071145941282816?s=20

    Yeah, it explains the lack of interviews/photos with the victims. I think they are having slow agonising deaths, which seems to fit the modus operandi of Moscow.
    The policeman was reported to be awake and talking a couple of weeks ago, but nothing’s been said about him since then. The two Russians were last reported as being in a coma, possibly medically induced, but no updates on them have been given since a couple of days after the event. They could be awake and talking, or they could be still unconscious. It’s clearly not in our interest to say any more at this stage, obviously MI5 and MI6 are all over it and those involved in their treatment. Are they even still in Salisbury General Hospital?
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    edited March 2018
    As anybody who has been on Facebook or Twitter or even here the russian misinformation has worked on some.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Morris_Dancer said:

    It's a smart video. Some of the comments are nuts, but that's Twitter...

    The next version will add those Russian troll-farm comments too...as further evience of media manipulation from Moscow.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,315
    For diving fans, this is a thing of beauty...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43472827
  • Options
    David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    As anybody who has been on Facebook or Twitter or even here the russian misinformation has worked on some.


    Which one of us on PB is Russian?

    Come on, own up.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,010
    Putin's election result among Russians living in the UK was 52%.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    williamglenn said:

    Putin's election result among Russians living in the UK was 52%.

    So 48% are now under police guard?
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 38,879
    David_Evershed said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    As anybody who has been on Facebook or Twitter or even here the russian misinformation has worked on some.


    Which one of us on PB is Russian?

    Come on, own up.
    I'm always in a hurry, so I'm always rushin' ...

    I'll get my coat...
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,248
    Nigelb said:

    For diving fans, this is a thing of beauty...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43472827

    He's been watching Dele Alli.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,010
    Richard_Nabavi said:

    williamglenn said:

    Putin's election result among Russians living in the UK was 52%.

    So 48% are now under police guard?
    The 48% are getting behind the will of the Putin.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,248
    I think we all know what's coming.

    https://twitter.com/tictoc/status/976100021094440960
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    David_Evershed said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    As anybody who has been on Facebook or Twitter or even here the russian misinformation has worked on some.

    Which one of us on PB is Russian?

    Come on, own up.
    My wife’s Russian, and when I’m not in the sandpit I live in Salisbury.
    There’s been a few fun discussions in the past couple of weeks. ;)
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,274
    China Approves Giant Propaganda Machine to Improve Global Image

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/xi-creates-voice-of-china-broadcaster-to-improve-global-image
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    edited March 2018
    Red Hawk down?
    https://twitter.com/rafredarrows/status/976106892488474624
  • Options
    ReggieCideReggieCide Posts: 4,312
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Nigelb said:

    For diving fans, this is a thing of beauty...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43472827

    He's been watching Dele Alli.
    Your curlers are showing!
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,953
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I think we all know what's coming.

    https://twitter.com/tictoc/status/976100021094440960

    'The chairman and the board have full confidence in...'
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 39,953
    Sandpit said:

    Red Hawk down?
    https://twitter.com/rafredarrows/status/976106892488474624

    It would appear so.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/red-arrows-jet-crashes-raf-valley-wales-145227429.html
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I think we all know what's coming.

    https://twitter.com/tictoc/status/976100021094440960

    For the craven knave that is Paul Ryan that is quite a big statement.
  • Options
    Scrapheap_as_wasScrapheap_as_was Posts: 10,059
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Nigelb said:

    For diving fans, this is a thing of beauty...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43472827

    He's been watching Dele Alli.
    Now that's a dive....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/43472827
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    Theuniondivvie said:

    Sandpit said:

    Red Hawk down?
    https://twitter.com/rafredarrows/status/976106892488474624

    It would appear so.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/red-arrows-jet-crashes-raf-valley-wales-145227429.html
    Crap. Hope pilot and passenger managed to bang out.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Have we noticed this?

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/mar/20/scottish-court-allows-petition-on-whether-uk-can-unilaterally-stop-brexit

    It seems very surprising to me, but IANAL (let alone a Scottish one).
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,299
    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    It is possible to be plausible and utterly wrong.
    Plausibility is in the eye of the beholder.
    I didn't hear him, so I have no idea.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,244
    Sandpit said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Sandpit said:

    Red Hawk down?
    https://twitter.com/rafredarrows/status/976106892488474624

    It would appear so.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/red-arrows-jet-crashes-raf-valley-wales-145227429.html
    Crap. Hope pilot and passenger managed to bang out.
    Local reports pilot ejected but no news on how he is. RAF appealing for witnesses
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,244
    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,835
    edited March 2018
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Sandpit said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Sandpit said:

    Red Hawk down?
    https://twitter.com/rafredarrows/status/976106892488474624

    It would appear so.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/red-arrows-jet-crashes-raf-valley-wales-145227429.html
    Crap. Hope pilot and passenger managed to bang out.
    Local reports pilot ejected but no news on how he is. RAF appealing for witnesses
    Fingers crossed a couple more members of the Martin-Baker tie club.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    China Approves Giant Propaganda Machine to Improve Global Image

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/xi-creates-voice-of-china-broadcaster-to-improve-global-image

    How much have we cut the World Service over the years?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,244
    edited March 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Sandpit said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Sandpit said:

    Red Hawk down?
    https://twitter.com/rafredarrows/status/976106892488474624

    It would appear so.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/red-arrows-jet-crashes-raf-valley-wales-145227429.html
    Crap. Hope pilot and passenger managed to bang out.
    Local reports pilot ejected but no news on how he is. RAF appealing for witnesses
    Fingers crossed a couple more members of the Martin-Baker imagetie club.
    Video does show plume of black smoke from the area that looks like the runway

    Update

    Witness saw pilot eject just before the aircraft hit the runway
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Putin don't do subtle too often .....

    Invasions of Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, multiple extra judicial murders at home and abroad, rigged elections and sports doping to name but several.

    Pour encourager les autres is a Putin speciality dish.
  • Options
    TheJezziahTheJezziah Posts: 3,840
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what they can actually do, Russia have a veto so they must be limited in terms of passing a resolution but simply following procedures already in place I assume?
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,244
    TheJezziah said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what they can actually do, Russia have a veto so they must be limited in terms of passing a resolution but simply following procedures already in place I assume?
    Not sure to be honest
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    philiph said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Ask Jeremy Corbyn. It must be one of the issues we shouldn't rush to conclusions about...
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    What if it turns out to be some non-military grade nerve agent that our friendly neighbourhood terrorist has fixed up? Won't the UN be interested?

    Good afternoon, everyone.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,244
    philiph said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    As I understand it it can only be produced and delivered by military experts
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,244
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Sandpit said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Sandpit said:

    Theuniondivvie said:

    Sandpit said:

    Red Hawk down?
    https://twitter.com/rafredarrows/status/976106892488474624

    It would appear so.

    https://uk.news.yahoo.com/red-arrows-jet-crashes-raf-valley-wales-145227429.html
    Crap. Hope pilot and passenger managed to bang out.
    Local reports pilot ejected but no news on how he is. RAF appealing for witnesses
    Fingers crossed a couple more members of the Martin-Baker imagetie club.
    Video does show plume of black smoke from the area that looks like the runway

    Update

    Witness saw pilot eject just before the aircraft hit the runway
    Update

    Witness saw pilot eject just before the aircraft hit the runway
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,244
    AnneJGP said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    What if it turns out to be some non-military grade nerve agent that our friendly neighbourhood terrorist has fixed up? Won't the UN be interested?

    Good afternoon, everyone.
    I would expect so but the government scientists have identified it as military grade
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    philiph said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,248
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    China Approves Giant Propaganda Machine to Improve Global Image

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/xi-creates-voice-of-china-broadcaster-to-improve-global-image

    How much have we cut the World Service over the years?
    Nothing, all we did was force the BBC to fund it instead of the Foreign Office.

    From 2015

    The government is to invest £85m a year in enhancing BBC services around the world including in Russia, North Korea, the Middle East and Africa.

    The money is to help "build the global reach of the World Service" to half a billion people and "increase access to news and information".

    Director general Tony Hall said he "warmly welcomed" the announcement.

    The government will provide £34m between 2016-17 and £85m a year from 2017-18 for digital, TV and radio.

    The next review of this funding will be in 2020.

    'Half a billion people target'

    "This new funding is the single biggest increase in the World Service budget ever committed by any government," said Lord Hall.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-34902244

  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    I'm surprised they didn't project it on to the side of a bus.

    The problem the FO has got is.....

    1 Boris

    2. They've got form.

    Johnson of the FO just isn't credible however smart the graphics.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,140
    Meanwhile in the continuing Labour civil war, tweet of the day:

    https://twitter.com/alexgallagher2/status/976071382080675840

  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,315
    philiph said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    The sarin used in the Japanese underground attack a decade ago would probably fall into the non military grade category...

    Had it been properly weaponised - as opposed to poking plastic bags with umbrella tips - there would have been many many more casualties.
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    rottenborough said:

    Meanwhile in the continuing Labour civil war, tweet of the day:

    https://twitter.com/alexgallagher2/status/976071382080675840

    That leaves me entirely in the dark as to which wing of the party is complaining about which other wing.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,964
    Good afternoon, Miss JGP.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,248
    How naive is Guido?

    All parties do this.

    https://order-order.com/2018/03/20/fake-libdem-newspaper-lies-richmond-twickenham-voters/
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    Which I now know have an inhibiting effect on the transmission by nerve synapses.
    Learn something new every day! Thank you.
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited March 2018
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    How naive is Guido?

    All parties do this.

    https://order-order.com/2018/03/20/fake-libdem-newspaper-lies-richmond-twickenham-voters/

    3/10? A long way from highly naïve.

    However, it makes a story and political point.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,299
    JackW said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Putin don't do subtle too often .....

    Invasions of Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, multiple extra judicial murders at home and abroad, rigged elections and sports doping to name but several.

    Pour encourager les autres is a Putin speciality dish.
    I think pour encourager les autres is a strong motive yes, but given that this man was part of a spy exchange, such an act would cause alarm in Russian spy circles too. Whatever we think of the other items you mention, all have a clear geopolitical motive.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,010
    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/there-will-be-no-uk-brexit-deal-if-irish-border-issue-is-not-resolved-simon-coveney-36725038.html

    There will be no formal “Withdrawal Agreement” between the EU and UK if the Irish border issue is not resolved, Tánaiste Simon Coveney has told the Dáil.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,955
    williamglenn said:

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/there-will-be-no-uk-brexit-deal-if-irish-border-issue-is-not-resolved-simon-coveney-36725038.html

    There will be no formal “Withdrawal Agreement” between the EU and UK if the Irish border issue is not resolved, Tánaiste Simon Coveney has told the Dáil.

    Yes, we know. Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. :p
  • Options
    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Good afternoon, Miss JGP.

    Good afternoon, Mr Dancer.
  • Options
    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    They aren't as potent though
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    edited March 2018
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Not plausible at all. If the Russian government knew they didn't do it, they should be pulling out all the stops to show the world that is the case and to find out who did it and is trying to frame them Instead they are indulging in snide twattery on Twitter and Putin is giving menacing interviews on TV rather than phoning up May to pledge his cooperation.

    Corbyn is either idiotic or actively malign in his approach to international affairs.
  • Options
    glwglw Posts: 9,549
    JonathanD said:

    Corbyn is either idiotic or actively malign in his approach to international affairs.

    Why not both?
  • Options
    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    edited March 2018
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    JackW said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Putin don't do subtle too often .....

    Invasions of Georgia, Chechnya, Crimea, Eastern Ukraine, multiple extra judicial murders at home and abroad, rigged elections and sports doping to name but several.

    Pour encourager les autres is a Putin speciality dish.
    I think pour encourager les autres is a strong motive yes, but given that this man was part of a spy exchange, such an act would cause alarm in Russian spy circles too. Whatever we think of the other items you mention, all have a clear geopolitical motive.
    Hypothetical question(s)

    Assuming it was a Russian state sanctioned action, who do you think would approve the use of military grade nerve agent in a foreign country?
    How far up the food chain would you have to go to get authority?

    Assuming it was Russian nerve gas delivered outside state control:
    If it was nerve agent deployed without authority, how long would you expect the user or the person responsible at the facility that lost it to stay in position, and maybe stay alive?
    What motive would anyone have in an unofficial deployment?

    The family seem to have had rotten luck. Mother, Father, Son and Daughter all meeting rapid demise. It may all be coincidence. Or not.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,299
    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    China Approves Giant Propaganda Machine to Improve Global Image

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-03-20/xi-creates-voice-of-china-broadcaster-to-improve-global-image

    How much have we cut the World Service over the years?
    Nothing, all we did was force the BBC to fund it instead of the Foreign Office.

    From 2015

    The government is to invest £85m a year in enhancing BBC services around the world including in Russia, North Korea, the Middle East and Africa.

    The money is to help "build the global reach of the World Service" to half a billion people and "increase access to news and information".

    Director general Tony Hall said he "warmly welcomed" the announcement.

    The government will provide £34m between 2016-17 and £85m a year from 2017-18 for digital, TV and radio.

    The next review of this funding will be in 2020.

    'Half a billion people target'

    "This new funding is the single biggest increase in the World Service budget ever committed by any government," said Lord Hall.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-34902244

    Part of the trade-off for keeping the egregious licence fee in place.....
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Blue_rog said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    They aren't as potent though
    There was a spoof documentary about farmers being poisoned by organophosphates they were using as insecticide on turnip weevils (or something), where the interviewer says to the farmer that it is a slight consolation that at least he has got rid of the insects; the farmer says, Actually, no, because although OPs are lethally poisonous to humans they are only a mild irritant to turnip weevils.
  • Options
    Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 25,299
    JonathanD said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Not plausible at all. If the Russian government knew they didn't do it, they should be pulling out all the stops to show the world that is the case and to find out who did it and is trying to frame them Instead they are indulging in snide twattery on Twitter and Putin is giving menacing interviews on TV rather than phoning up May to pledge his cooperation.

    Corbyn is either idiotic or actively malign in his approach to international affairs.
    I only have some snippets on Radio 4 to go on, but is asking for a sample that they can examine not what the Russians are doing?
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    JonathanD said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Not plausible at all. If the Russian government knew they didn't do it, they should be pulling out all the stops to show the world that is the case and to find out who did it and is trying to frame them Instead they are indulging in snide twattery on Twitter and Putin is giving menacing interviews on TV rather than phoning up May to pledge his cooperation.

    Corbyn is either idiotic or actively malign in his approach to international affairs.
    I think the point someone made this morning is very telling, that if they were above board they would have expressed, and given other evidence of, concern for their innocent citizen Iulia.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,095
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it, then Putin would almost certainly be at war with whoever it was by now.

    So Russia did it.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,244
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    The video is excellent but maybe not if you are pro Russia or Corbyn
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,702
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    How naive is Guido?

    All parties do this.

    https://order-order.com/2018/03/20/fake-libdem-newspaper-lies-richmond-twickenham-voters/

    ... and there seems to be a large orange LibDem panel on it.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    You are right, but what to do? You can't put the social media genie back in the bottle. We have the POTUS, and the Russian Embassy, using twitter trolling as the continuation of diplomacy by other means. Either we join in, or if we are silent, the world doesn't think "how dignified," it thinks "UK pwned, lulz :lol::lol::lol:"
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    The video is excellent but maybe not if you are pro Russia or Corbyn
    I would suggest that the video is simply a reflection of the times we are in, where no politician or public authority can hold anyone's attention for more than a few minutes.
  • Options
    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,578
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Blue_rog said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    They aren't as potent though
    There was a spoof documentary about farmers being poisoned by organophosphates they were using as insecticide on turnip weevils (or something), where the interviewer says to the farmer that it is a slight consolation that at least he has got rid of the insects; the farmer says, Actually, no, because although OPs are lethally poisonous to humans they are only a mild irritant to turnip weevils.
    Sounds like a good advertisement for organic farming.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    SandyRentool said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    Blue_rog said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    They aren't as potent though
    There was a spoof documentary about farmers being poisoned by organophosphates they were using as insecticide on turnip weevils (or something), where the interviewer says to the farmer that it is a slight consolation that at least he has got rid of the insects; the farmer says, Actually, no, because although OPs are lethally poisonous to humans they are only a mild irritant to turnip weevils.
    Sounds like a good advertisement for organic farming.
    It was a spoof...
  • Options
    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,491
    philiph said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    philiph said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    TheJezziah said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If you kill double agents it discourages people from being double agents. Which is a plausible motive.
    Report today that if the OPCW confirm the UK's idenification that it is a military grade nerve agent the matter will immediately become an issue for the United Nations
    I wonder what a non military grade nerve agent is.

    Social grade, play grade, terrorist grade, freshers' week grade?

    I guess some insecticides work by effecting the nervous system, so Agricultural / Horticultural may be a possibility.

    Anyone know the right answer?
    Yes agricultural, these things are organophosphates and don't just affect the nervous system, they do it in the same way by inhibiting acetylcholinesterase.
    Which I now know have an inhibiting effect on the transmission by nerve synapses.
    Learn something new every day! Thank you.
    Acetyl Choline is the neuro-transmitter of the peripheral autonomic nerves and neuromuscular junctions. It is broken down by acetylcholinesterase, so acetylcholinesterase inhibitors increase the action of acetyl-choline.

    There is some Acetyl Choline in the central nervous system (this is one mechanism of anti Alzheimer drugs), but it is less important, so the effect of these agents are on the peripheral nerves, causing asphyxia by paralysis if untreated. There is no true antidote, though drugs like atropine can moderate the effect. It is mostly a matter of supportive care while it wears off.
  • Options
    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    MarqueeMark said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    If someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it, then Putin would almost certainly be at war with whoever it was by now.

    So Russia did it.

    Russia did it. And Russia wants everyone to know they did it.

  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,789
    This is a significant judgement.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-43469536
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,891
    AlastairMeeks said:

    The government (indeed, all governments) should do a lot more of this. It is a good thing for governments to communicate their policy positions in clearly understood and relevant ways.

    Explanation is fine but to use humour to explain the assassination of two possibly three people reads like propaganda. It would be more appropriate for a COI ad warning on the dangers of eating too many chocolates at Christmas
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    You are right, but what to do? You can't put the social media genie back in the bottle. We have the POTUS, and the Russian Embassy, using twitter trolling as the continuation of diplomacy by other means. Either we join in, or if we are silent, the world doesn't think "how dignified," it thinks "UK pwned, lulz :lol::lol::lol:"
    The Chinese have a solution to this.
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    JonathanD said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    Not plausible at all. If the Russian government knew they didn't do it, they should be pulling out all the stops to show the world that is the case and to find out who did it and is trying to frame them Instead they are indulging in snide twattery on Twitter and Putin is giving menacing interviews on TV rather than phoning up May to pledge his cooperation.

    Corbyn is either idiotic or actively malign in his approach to international affairs.
    I only have some snippets on Radio 4 to go on, but is asking for a sample that they can examine not what the Russians are doing?
    If Russia was serious about resolving this matter, Putin would have phoned May, offered his cooperation and then asked for a sample. Russia would have had the high ground and the UK couldn't have said no.
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    MarkHopkinsMarkHopkins Posts: 5,584
    edited March 2018
    logical_song said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    How naive is Guido?

    All parties do this.

    https://order-order.com/2018/03/20/fake-libdem-newspaper-lies-richmond-twickenham-voters/

    ... and there seems to be a large orange LibDem panel on it.

    Not obvious on the front page though. Does seem somewhat underhand.

    I've seen Labour/Tory equivalents and you can tell from the front page what they are (at least at 2nd glance).

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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,150
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    https://twitter.com/toniasamsonova/status/976071145941282816?s=20

    Yeah, it explains the lack of interviews/photos with the victims. I think they are having slow agonising deaths, which seems to fit the modus operandi of Moscow.
    I really hope that the poor policeman survives.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,702
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    The video is excellent but maybe not if you are pro Russia or Corbyn
    +1
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    logical_song said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    How naive is Guido?
    All parties do this.
    https://order-order.com/2018/03/20/fake-libdem-newspaper-lies-richmond-twickenham-voters/

    ... and there seems to be a large orange LibDem panel on it.
    This Lib Dem newspaper seems to be much more objective than the Express, the Telegraph, the Guardian, the BBC..... Even the Guido Fawkes internet pages.

    What is Guido complaining about?
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    edited March 2018
    delete
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    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    Luckyguy1983 said:

    More on topic, I think that is a pretty dreadful piece of media to come from the Foreign Office. Palmerston famously held the floor of the Commons for 3 hours. Now we bitch at our opponents on Twitter. Sadly we live in a diminished age.

    Ah. Putin's man on PB
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,491
    Cyclefree said:



    TheScreamingEagles said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    Second! Like Remain. And in sobering news:

    https://twitter.com/toniasamsonova/status/976071145941282816?s=20

    Yeah, it explains the lack of interviews/photos with the victims. I think they are having slow agonising deaths, which seems to fit the modus operandi of Moscow.
    I really hope that the poor policeman survives.
    I thought he had been discharged. The limiting factor for the other two would be whether they were asphyxiated before the ambulance arrived. After that they would be artificially ventilated. It is possible that they are "locked in"; a state of being conscious but paralysed.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    welshowl said:

    Luckyguy1983 said:

    I thought Corbyn was impressive on this on R4 today.

    The nub of the issue for me is simply this. Either Russia did this and wants everyone to know they did it (Russian-developed nerve agent in a public place is hardly subtle). Or someone else did it and wants everyone to think Russia did it.

    I truly believe that The Kremlin would have no compunction in doing this if they stood to gain. I just don't think they really do gain anything. Even as revenge on a double agent, this spy was part of an exchange, so it doesn't work as a motive for me. Putin is happy to get his hands very dirty, but never for no reason.

    The motive would be "pour encourager les autres" ie don't step out of line because we know you know we can get you, even if you are abroad. Otherwise you'd surely just bump them off with a bash on the head or a standard 9mm pistol which could be anyone (so to speak).

    However, as the unfortunate victims are not actually dead and are seemingly hanging on by a thread, it would seem something went "wrong" with the administration of the nerve agent.
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